Talk:Pennsylvania

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Good article Pennsylvania has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
March 25, 2007 Good article nominee Listed
This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.
Version 0.7
 This article has been selected for Version 0.7 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia.
Archive
Archives
2004-Jan 2007

Contents

[edit] Schizophrenia?

whatever <3; —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.229.193.53 (talk) 18:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC) There is a bit of schizophrenia not unique to Pennsylvania regarding its past history as a colony. That political entity was known as the "Province of Pennsylvania", was "Category:Former British Colony" and has it's own individual entry and history. The other Pennsylvania was the State which superceded the Province once the state revolted. It's history starts in 1776 or thereabouts. It was never a British Colony, that was the point. Right now there are two parallel Pennsylvania articles, one of which correctly starts in the 1600s and stops at 1776, but may grant topics to the state during that time for some reason. The other also starts in 1600s and has colonial pretensions. The editors either need to get together or agree where the split is. PS most of the colonies have the same problem.Student7 02:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Why should and how could Pennsylvania be both a State and a Commonwealth? If it is a Commonweatlh, shouldn't a star be taken off of the American Flag, considering they represent each STATE? If it is in fact a State, then the article should discuss or call into question this error that the writers of the Pennsylvania Constitution made. I am aware this condition exists with other STATES. 須藤 07:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Basically, a state can call itself whatever it wants to. If Pennsylvania wanted to call itself "The Republic of Pennsylvania," it could. There is no requirement that a state refer to itself as a state -- its official title does not change its legal status. A state by any other name (even a commonwealth) is still a state. "Country" Bushrod Washington 05:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

I'd say this article now meets GA criteria, it's got plenty of references now and is greatly improved over the state it was in when it was rightly delisted. Krimpet (talk/review) 16:35, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The meaning of "Pennsylvania"

I have always read that the name Pennsylvania comes from Penn (for William Penn or his father Admiral Penn) plus Sylvania, Latin for woods, hence Penn's Woods. However, User:WLRoss brought this source to my attention:

This letter from William Penn to Robert Turner is possibly the original source .... From this it seems that the King thought it was named after Penn's father in error. I’ll leave that up to you if you prefer:

"This day, my country was confirmed to me under the great seal of England, with privileges, by the name of Pennsylvania, a name the King would give it in honour of my father. I chose New Wales, being as this, a pretty, hilly country, but Penn being Welsh for head as in Penman moire, in Wales, and Penrith, in Cumberland, and Penn, in Buckinghamshire, called this Pennsylvania, which is the high or head woodlands; for I proposed, when the secretary, a Welshman, refused to have it called New Wales, Sylvania and they added Penn to it, and though I opposed it and went to the King to have it struck out and altered he said it was past, nor could twenty guineas move the under-secretary to vary the name.” (from here).

Any thoughts on how to put the two differing etymologies into the article? Also does anyone have a good "Penns Woods" source? Ruhrfisch 03:17, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

This is the original letter dated March 5, 1681:
"...this day my country was confirmed to me under the Great Seal of England with large powers and privileges, by the name of Pennsylvania, a name the King would give it in honor to my father. I chose New-Wales, being as this a pretty hilly country, but Penn being Welsh for a head, as Penmaenmawr in Wales and Penrith in Cumberland and Penn in Buckinghamshire, the highest land in England, called this Pennsylvania which is the high or head woodlands. For I proposed, when the secretary, a Welshman, refused to have it called New-Wales, Sylvania, and they added Penn to it; and though I much opposed it and went to the King to have it struck out and altered, he said it was passed and he would take it upon him. Nor could twenty guineas move the undersecretaries to vary the name, for I feared lest it should be looked on as a vanity to me and not as a respect in the King, as it truly was, to my father whom he often mentions with praise."
I've checked various sources including a book on the history of Bucks county written in 1876 that contains the letter and uses it as the source of the etymology although the book interprets it differently:
"When it became necessary to give a name to the county covered by the grant, Penn chose New Wales, but the king objected. Penn then suggested "Sylvania," to which the king prefixed the word "Penn," in honor of his father, and thus the country was given the name it bears - Pennsylvania, which means the high or head wood-lands".
The various sources have this minor difference depending on whether it is from a British or American viewpoint. British sources say Penn's secretary added Penn to Sylvania. American sources say Sylvania was submitted and the King himself added Penn to it. All are in agreance that Penn genuinely tried to change it back to Sylvania. The letter itself is unclear on who the "they" is that added Penn and it's possible it is singular rather than the plural meaning we use today. It's probable that the secretary was actually the Kings secretary because Penn was still in England when the letter was written but many sources (British) say it was Penn's. History is rarely clearcut.
This website http://www.mapsofpa.com/home.htm looks like a good reference site, is factually NPOV and also has the name explanation on the "introduction" page without making any particular claim.
It is clear the name was not Penn's choice, is is clear the King thought it was in honour of Penns father and it is also reasonably clear it was actually intended that Penn be used to mean "high" although it is also possible it is a sort of pun by the secretary. Perhaps explain that it is debated whether it was the King or the secretary who added Penn to Sylvania although i would have no problem if it was only attributed to the King as it is only a minor point in the etymology. Wayne 04:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The story of the naming is told in some detail in the book Names on the Land, by George R. Stewart. The tale involves some of the stuff mentioned above, and then some. The gist of it is that William Penn and Charles II undoubtedly respected one another, but held very different views. One difference was that while it was quite common for new place names coming from a royal charter to honor some person, perhaps the king. But a tenet of the Quakerism that Penn held to essentially forbid honoring a person in this way. Penn presented a draft charter to the King's secretary. As with the earlier Maryland charter the place where the name would go was left blank, "to be arranged between the Crown and the proprietor". Penn's first suggested was "New Wales", because "the lands were said to be hilly". The secretary refused to accept this name (for unknown reasons, maybe he didn't like Quakers, or Wales, who knows). So Penn suggested "Sylvania", because the land was forested. The story is apparently unclear in part, but it seems that the secretary took the charter with this name to King Charles II, who seems to have decided to play a rather lame joke on Penn. He approved the charter, but when it was returned to Penn the name had been written as "Pennsylvania". In other words, while Penn would not think it fit to honor even a king with a new place name, the king decided to honor Penn himself. Funny, no? Well, not very. Penn was shocked and appalled and demanded to see the king. They met and Penn tried his best to get the name changed, to no avail. But Charles "gave a hole for escape by saying that the name was really in honor of Penn's father." Penn was still unsatisfied. He offered an undersecretary some money to alter the name, but no luck. Then Penn wrote the letter mentioned above, saying not only that it was his father who was honored, but that "pen" in Welsh means "high", so Pensylvania could mean "high forest" or something like that. I don't think the joke aspect of the story can be proven, but it makes some sense and is a good story. This book wraps the topic up by saying that even if Penn didn't like it, most people would agree that Pennsylvania is a much better name than New Wales. Pfly (talk) 10:45, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Do you have the ISBN, publisher etc. so we could cite the book in the article? Also have to come up with a brief summary of the above discussion. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 12:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes -- I'll try to add it in myself when I get a chance. If nothing else, if I flake, the book's info is on my user page (there is no ISBN I can find, maybe because it's an older book). But I've made a note to try to get to it! Pfly (talk) 03:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
No hurry, I saw this when you posted and was busy and forgot to reply until you posted on a different topic below. Sorry to be slow and thanks for the clearer story and source, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Important cities and municipalities

In the Important cities and municipalities section, or somewhere within the state page, someone really needs to offer an explanations about the differences of cities, boroughs, towns, and townships, even if the differences are minimal. For instance, I'm from Michigan, we don't have boroughs, so I don't know how they function. We have villages, cities, and townships for municipal divisions. --71.206.107.202 09:11, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I changed the link to point to Borough_(United_States)#Pennsylvania which has a good description (and points to the useless Borough_(Pennsylvania) article). 71.254.119.176 23:44, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Ostentatious frippery"?

Penn knew of the hostility[5] Quakers faced when they opposed rituals, oaths, violence, and ostentatious frippery.

I want to reword "ostentatious frippery" to something people can actually understand, but I'm not sure what's meant by it in the first place. Some definitions I found online were "showy, elaborate clothing", "pretentious elegance," and "something trivial or nonessential". I have to wonder if it wouldn't be better just to delete it... Does anyone have an idea as to what is meant? Kennard2 03:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Pretentiously elegant dress would be pretty close, but I kinda like ostentatious frippery as a nice contemptuously accurate description. You clearly understood the phrase from the context. Why dumb it down and prevent the next reader from learning a useful new phrase? My opinion only, of course. alteripse 11:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
The phrase ostentatious frippery does mean overly elaborate clothing. It also connotes superiority of the quakers belief in simplicity. I do not think it would be "dumb[ing] down" an encyclopedia to be a bit more neutral. The sentence could read "Penn knew of the hostility[5] Quakers faced when they opposed rituals, oaths, violence, and what they viewed as ostentatious frippery.[6]" Four simple words can keep the phrase and maintain neutrality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djp27 (talk • contribs) 15:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Education?

Is not Education an important and worthy aspect of Pennsylvania? All other states have a section devoted to it. Please at least mention Penn for crying out loud. It's an important American institution.--Zereshk 06:41, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I second this, it should be brought up to attention once more. Sean22190 (talk) 03:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Franklin and Colonial Scrip

The article says that Ben Franklin had a hand in the creation of the provincial currency, Colonial Scrip - but he would have been only around 17 when it was introduced. Would it not be more accurate to say that he successfully campaigned for its general acceptance? Jimgawn 23:44, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 17th Largest Economy

As of 2005 the state has the 17th largest economy in the world.

I read the source and sure enough, that's what it says. But it is unclear. Does it mean that among nations PA would be, if it was a nation, the 17th largest? Or does it include, say, provinces of China? What about other US states? I'd guess it's just comparing PA to other nations only, but without a unit of comparison the statement is a bit vague and meaningless, no? It would be nice to add "...among nations" to the statement, but the source doesn't say that. Unclear... anyone have more info? Pfly (talk) 10:19, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

See Comparison between U.S. states and countries nominal GDP. The sentence confused me when I first read it, too. I've it the opening paragraph. It doesn't belong there. It is mentioned again in the "economy" section, which is fine. Sam Staton (talk) 20:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History

Nothing on when the Colony was first settled. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.31.185 (talk) 07:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Did you look at the History section? If you can't find what you want there, try the main article linked to at the start of the History section, History of Pennsylvania. Pfly (talk) 08:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PA.soi.jpg

Image:PA.soi.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 15:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Estamate population of pennsylvania!!

The estamate population for pennsylvania is 13,123,479

Thanks and ha! to austin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.246.208.76 (talk) 18:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] James Buchanon was NOT the only bachelor president

Martin Van Buren was single during his first term. His wife died before he went into office. It just annoyed me to see that since that's something you specifically learn in high school US History. --Yeahjesse (talk) 02:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Note that a bachelor is one whom has never married, as opposed to van Buren: a widower. --Bossi (talk • gallery • contrib) 03:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Triple A team

The Phillies Babeball triple A team is moving to Allentown from Scranton/Wilkes-Barre, not Canada. Also, Scranton/Wilkes-barre is now home to the New York Yankees Triple A team.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.33.235.214 (talk) 22:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)