Talk:Pennine Alps

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[edit] Extent of the Pennine Alps

This article incorporates text from the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, now in the public domain.

This page is just a list of peaks and passes. I could translate a little from other wikipeida's, but there is an inconsistency. The German article reads that:

• the name Pennine Alps is synonimous for "Walliser Alps" (so i made an interwiki link)
• the Walliser Alps' western border is the Great Saint Bernard Pass

However, this article states that: the Pennine Alps include the mountains of the Haute Savoie, for example the Mont Blanc, west of the St. Bernard. So I wonder which of the two definitions is true, and also if we should include "Walliser Alps" rather than "Pennine Alps", as the term is hardly used anymore. Maybe it was in 1911... Woodwalker 13:34, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Italans geography's books say Graian Alps ending in Col Ferret and Pennine Alps starting from Col Ferret; the term "Pennine" is normally used at the moment in italians schools. Part of Graian alps and Pennine alps are in italian territory and can be that even italians geographs know Alps mountains.

I've been looking around on some online encyclopedia's, and there are several names and limits out there. The divisions currently on wikipedia are from EB1911, that's probably outdated. The western limit of the Pennine Alps is sometimes Col Ferret, sometimes Great St Bernard Pass. An overview:

source	south of Little St Bernard	between Little St Bernard and Col Ferret or Great St Bernard	east of Col Ferret or Great St Bernard
EB1911	Graian Alps	Pennine Alps	Pennine Alps
Italian sites	Alpi Graie	Alpi Graie	Alpi Pennine
German wikipedia	Grajische Alpen	Savoyer Alpen	Walliser Alpen
French wikipedia	Alpes Grées	Alpes Grées/Massif Mt Blanc	Alpes valaisannes
Britannica online	Graian Alps	Mont Blanc group	Pennine Alps
Columbia online	Graian Alps	Mont Blanc group	Pennine Alps
Summitpost	Graian Alps	Mont Blanc group	Pennine Alps

Maybe someone can find more scientific sources? Markussep 21:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Mont Blanc massif is in Graian Alps and ends in Col Ferret. That’s say people living in Graian Alps. What Britannica online says about Mont Blanc is not reliable: in that encyclopaedia I've read as well that Mont Blanc summit is in.... French territory. I think Italians encyclopaedias are enough trustable about Italian territory than anyone else.You can find here [1] the alpine arch’s geographical subdivision.--Shardan 09:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

That's an interesting link! I just found the article, including maps, at [2]. If I understand correctly, but I can't really read Italian, this subdivision is a proposal, based on several international subdivisions, but intended for use in Italy. I haven't found any non-Italian links to SOIUSA yet. I did find another recent subdivision, at www.diealpen.at. I don't think the Italian version is online already. Markussep 10:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Markussep, the first map is the old Italian classification, but the second one in the new international classification. That one has been verified by the most importants Europeans geographs an the whole result has been concretised in the "Atlante orografico delle Alpi", (Italy December 2005 by Priuli & Verlucca [3]. The 6 alpine countries (Italy, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Slovenia and France) are agreed about this last classification. The entire alpine arch has been divided into:

• 2 parts (PT)
• 5 sectors (SR)
• 36 sections (SZ)
• 132 sub-sections (STS)
• 333 super-groups (SPG)
• 870 groups (GR)
• 1625 sub-groups (STG)

Mont Blanc code identification is: " 7.V.2." and its means:

• 7 = section 7 = Graian Alps (one of the 36 sections)
• V= fifth (Latin number) for sub-section fifth (one of the 132 sub-sections – STS.V =Mont Blanc Group)
• 2=second group (GR.2) – in orographical (?) order - of the fifth sub-section in the seventh alpine section. --Shardan 15:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It looks like a good subdivision to me, but can you give me some examples of the use of this system outside Italy? Introducing this subdivision has repercussions on other parts of the Alps (Switzerland, Austria, Lombardy) as well. I guess most modern systems agree that the Mont Blanc group is not part of the Pennine Alps. It might be the best solution to create a new article about the Mont Blanc group (and move all the applicable peaks and passes there), and add that it is considered (by some or many) to be part of the Graian Alps. Markussep 08:12, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Italy is the only country with a frontier extended on the two sectors of the Alps (Orients and western) and in every section of the two sectors the SIOUSA has designed the limits in agreement with the authority of the interested nations. In any case, according with French, the Mont Blanc is located in the Graians Alps. Many times it comes cited only like part of the Mont Blanc’s massif (but that one is one sub-section of Graian Alps). If still you don’t find links towards the SIOUSA’s work in other languages, can be that has still not been translate.--Shardan 10:35, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Having seen no objections to the SIOUSA system, I'm going to move the Mont Blanc group to the Graian Alps article. Markussep 17:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to be late but this division of alps is at odds with practically every other source. The Graians northern limit is given as the Little St Bernard pass by practically every author over the last 150 years, inlcuding Coolidge, Collomb the CAI guide books, and Encylopeadia Brittanica. I stongly recommend that the MB group is given its own section or it will just be confusing. I never heard of SIOUSA divisions and a google search brings up no results. (BTW the summit of Mont Blanc IS in France - the border runs along the line of where the rock first show below the summit and over MB de Courmayeur - Shardan seems a little nationalistic in his approach to things) --Mgillie 09:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

You may be right, but it would have been nice if you had discussed this first, before removing all peaks in the Mont Blanc Massif. Are you going to create an article about the Mont Blanc Massif? Markussep 17:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Mgillie, if I seem nationalist (but.... which nation? I’ve got Italian and French citizenschip! ....And I’m coming from Sardinia...), but that is my knowledge on Alps. If you don’t know Soiusa, [4], apart Wikipedia, here few useful publications:

• AA. VV., Conoscere le Alpi (6 voll.), Istituto Geografico De Agostini, Novara,1992.
• AA. VV., Grande enciclopedia GE 20, Istituto Geografico De Agostini, Novara, 1972 (vol. I, p. 427).
• AA. VV., Guida dei monti d'Italia (55 voll.), Milano, Touring Club Italiano-Club Alpino Italiano, Milano 1936-97. .
• GIOVANNI BERTOGLIO, GIOVANNI DE SIMONI, Partizione delle Alpi, Tipografia Alzani, Pinerolo, 1980.
• RAOUL BLANCHARD, Les Alpes Occidentales (7 voll.), Editions Arthaud, Paris, 1938-56.
• LUCIEN DEVIES, PIERRE HENRY, GINO BUSCAINI, Guide Vallot, La Chaîne du Mont Blanc (4 voll.), Editions Arthaud, Paris, 1975-79.
• ROGER FRISON-ROCHE, Les montagnes de la Terre, Paris, Flammarion, Paris, 1964.
• SILVIO SAGLIO (a cura di), Da rifugio a rifugio (13 voll.), Touring Club Italiano-Club Alpino Italiano, Milano, 1939-61.
• Carta topografica d'Italia 1:50.000 (fogli 1-259), Istituto Geografico Militare, Firenze.
• Carte con sentieri e rifugi 1:50.000 (fogli 1-22), Istituto Geografico Centrale, Torino.
• Carte sentieri/rifugi 1:50.000 (fogli 1-12), Casa Editrice Tabacco, Udine.

About Mont Blanc, on It wiki (and even on Fr Wiki), you can find:http: [5]:

• Le Capitaine Mieulet et la carte du Mont-Blanc, articolo di Joseph Vallot nella rivista "La Montagne" del Club alpin français (1905).
• La découverte du Mont-Blanc par les cartographes 1515 - 1925. Laura & Giorgio Aliprandi, Priuli & Verlucca, (2000).
• Le Alpi contese, Alpinismo e nazionalismi. Michel Mestre, Edizioni CDA, (2000).
• Le Grandi Alpi nella cartografia 1482-1885. Laura & Giorgio Aliprandi, Priuli & Verlucca, (2005).
• Le Alpi in scala, dal piano al monte. Le carte geografiche e l’immagine delle montagne nella loro evoluzione storica. L’immagine della montagna nella tecnica cartografica, Ilario Principe, Torino: Museo Nazionale della Montagna,"Duca degli Abruzzi" (1991).
• La frontière italo-française du mont Blanc: deux solutions pour le meme problème, Aliprandi Laura e Giorgio, Imprimerie Valdotaine, Aoste, (1988).
• Le Alpi in scala; edito dal Museo Nazionale della Montagna "Duca degli Abruzzi" di Torino - Club Alpino Italiano 1991, collana "cahiers" del museo. Il capitolo su "Il confine di Stato sulla vetta del Monte Bianco" è scritto da Antonio Finizio.
• Questo articolo del maggiore degli Alpini Umberto Pelazza presenta il «punto di vista italiano».
• (French) In questo sitodell'I.G.N si trova il Reportage sulle nuove carte Alpes sans Frontieres.
• Qui si trovano notizie sui più recenti sviluppi.
• Atlante italianodove si può trovare la cartografia ufficiale dell'Istituto Geografico Militare di Firenze.
• (French) Club Alpino francese - Alpi senza frontiere .

.....And on newpapers:

• Corriere della Sera, 10 febbraio 1996 " E' a metà la vetta del Monte Bianco" Edoardo Girola
• Repubblica, 31 gennaio 2005sul falso storico della carta topografica francese
• Corriere della Sera, 2 gennaio 2006 L'ecclatante caso del Monte BiancoDario Rivolta. By--Shardan 22:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)