Talk:Penge

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[edit] Surrey or Kent?

My understanding was this place was originally in Surrey and got included in 1894 in Croydon Rural District. However in 1899 it became an urban district in its own right and was transferred to Kent. [1] [2] MRSC 16:51, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I've added to some details to the history section. What I'm not sure about is if Penge was a detatched part of Surrey "physically within Kent" or part of contiguous Surrey (I think this is more likely and the "detatched" refers only to the ancient parish not the county). MRSC 17:16, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
One possibility is that it was historically in Kent (the ABC have it Surrey/Kent), but was included in the Croydon Rural District despite still being part of Kent. User:Lozleader's research has discovered that this was possible (see Local Government Act 1929). If it was in a detatched part of Surrey, ABC would note that. Morwen - Talk 19:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Finally found a source. The 'shire ditch' (sounds nice) cut right through the area, so it was part in each. MRSC • Talk 10:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Great work! --Vince 21:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

There is an Ordnance Survey map in the House of Commons Library from 1885 that shows the Hamlet of Penge as a ward of the Borough of Camberwell (in Surrey).Bebofpenge 12:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MBW / LCC

If I'm following all this right, Penge is also unique in having been included in the area covered by the Metropolis Management Act of 1855, but then not included in London Metropolitan County 30-odd years later. Lewis Trondheim 14:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell it was in the County of London from 1889. The trouble seems to have started in 1894 with the creation of local government districts when it got lumped in with Croydon Rural District. Perhaps the Lewisham board didn't want to administer it anymore? The 1899 Act seems to be correcting the problem of having part of the County of London administered by the RDC of another county. MRSC • Talk 10:47, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I've just checked the contemporary Kelly's Directories at http://www.historicaldirectories.org/
Penge appears in the 1891 Surrey directory, where it is described as:
  • PENGE, a detached hamlet of Battersea, is separated for ecclesiastical purposes and also has its own overseers and supports its own poor: it is situated on the borders of Kent, 7 miles south-east of london, and is included in the parliamentary borough of Camberwell, created by the "Redistribution of Seats Act, 1885" and under the "Local Government Act, 1888" is included in the County of London, and now forms a separate petty sessional division; it is also in the North Eastern division of the county of Surrey, South Eastern Metropolitan postal district, Croydon union and county court district, east division of Brixton hundred, rural deanery of Camberwell, archedaconry of Southwark and diocese of Rochester, and it is within the jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court and Metropolitan Police.

It goes on to note that the Hamlet of Penge Vestry elect 6 members to the Board of works for the Lewisham District.

In the 1903 Kent directory:
  • PENGE, once a detached hamlet of Battersea, now a separate Urban District and civil parish, has been, under the "London Government Act, 1899" by Order in Council, 1900, transferred to Kent; it is situated on the borders of the county, 7 miles south-east of london, and is included in Dulwich division of the parliamentary borough of Camberwell (Surrey), created by the "Redistribution of Seats Act, 1885" and is now also a separate petty sessional division, formed by Order in Council in pursuance of the "Local Government Act, 1894"; it is in the South Eastern Metropolitan postal district, Croydon union and county court district, rural deanery of Camberwell, archedaconry of Southwark and diocese of Rochester, and it is within the jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court and Metropolitan Police.
Soooo.... It was in the County of London 1889 - 1900, then in Kent.


That ties in with something I thought strange. When I went to the old St John's Primary School the older building had downpipes embossed L.C.C. but the newer buildings K.C.C. All of those buildings have gone now.

Bebofpenge (talk) 05:31, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Was it ever actually in Croydon Rural District? It seems unlikely. I'm fairly sure that the LGA 1894 didn't extend to the County of London...

Lozleader 19:16, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I also notice that Lewisham Council [3] describe Lewisham District 1855 - 1900 as consisting of Lewisham and Penge. Looking at the contemporary sources, I think the placing of Penge in Croydon RD may be an error by Vision of Britain. Youngs seems to be wrong, as he doesn't list Penge in the County of London at all. He doesn't list it in Wandsworth District or Croydon RD either. He must have been confused too! Lozleader 19:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Had a look at The Times of 1900, and on 27th February there was an article entitled "The Hamlet of Penge". The local government committee of the LCC had received the report of the commissioners appointed under the London Government Act 1899. their recommendations were that the hamlet should be "separated from the County of London and be constituted an urban district in the county of Kent".Lozleader 20:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brickfield

There was supposed to have been a brickfield on the corner of what is now Penge High St and Oakfield Road. Does anyone have anyinformation on it. Did it predate the railway? Bebofpenge (talk) 05:31, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Danish money?

I don't think the line about Danish money has any place in this article. The Danish penge is not named after the place, it has a completely separate etymology and is pronounced differently. If it must appear on this page, it should be set off by itself, not sandwiched between two "cultural references" legitimately related to the subject of this article. Canonblack 14:09, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

In fact, I think it's just silly, so I've removed the line altogether. Otherwise in an article on, say, lamppost you could find someone remarking that "lamppost" is the Yiddish word for "tortoise". (I don't think it is, by the way!) --A bit iffy 14:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
LOL! Yeah, that would be a bit of a stretch! Thanks, for the laugh and the removal. Canonblack 13:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you should have one of those notes at top of the page saying "for the Danish money, see xxxx" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.75.196.163 (talk) 02:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Notable residents

One of the histories of Penge includes a long list of famous residents (former PM Bonar Law; Philosopher, author and broadcaster Malcolm Muggeridge(Sp?) to name just two. If anyone is near the Maple Road library, they should be able to find this info.Bebofpenge 00:24, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Glad to see this has been done by someone.

I am sceptical about the claim that Bonar Law and Malcolm Muggeridge lived in Penge. Would it be possible to provide a reference for these? --Vince 17:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I remain sceptical to the point where I will actually remove these unless someone comes up with a reference --Vince 12:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Bonar Law and Malcolm Muggeridge were documented residents. I'll restore them after I have access to source material over the next few weeks.Penge was in Bonar Law's constituency--Bebofpenge 02:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Isabella Beaton was a regular visitor, not a resident.

I don't mean to be pedantic but is there a reference? --Vince 04:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Can someone assist with entering the references correctly? Frank Bourne, Bill Wyman, Walter de la Mere, Thomas Crapper and Camille Pissaro were all from Abbott,Peter, The Book of Penge, Anerley and Crystal Palace, Halsgrove, 2002. Except for Mrs Beeton, the rest are from Pullen, Doris E., Penge, self-published,1990. I have not been able to verify Mrs Beeton at all.Bebofpenge 12:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

That's impressive work from interesting references. I remember having a copy of Doris Pullen's book years ago but I no longer have it.
I am happy to have a look later on today at sorting out the references list. I apologise for my initially sceptical stance but as I am sure you agree that is how the quality of Wikipedia is maintained. --Vince 12:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I have formatted the references as described. I noticed that you referenced the self published 1990 edition of Pullen's book rather than the 1978 edition - is that correct? I have added ISBN so people can find the books online. Also, to make it really watertight some page numbers wouldn't go amiss. --Vince 17:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Can I suggest the use of {{cite book}} which standardises the formats? Regan123 17:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The copies of the Doris Pullen book in the Penge Library are the 1990 self-published edition. It might be interesting to compare editions if anyone has the earlier. I entered the references exactly as done by Vince, but I thought the list or references was repetitive and hoped there was a neater way, so I deleted them. Page references would tidy some up, but Doris Pullen has all residents on one page (which I have added). I might get time to check page references in Peter Abbott's book, but I return to Australia soon so I might not have time. I have added page references for Peter AbbottBebofpenge 11:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Vera Welch (now Dame Vera Lynn) was resident at the Pawleyne Arms where her uncle was licensee (according to an elderly gentleman I met in the Maple Tree). Is there any hopeof verifying this?Bebofpenge 14:41, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

The inclusion of David Bowie is wrong. He was born in Brixton before his parents moved to Bromley when he was six. (Hence his 'Men are from Mars, I'm from Bromley' quip). I am removing the entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bebofpenge (talk • contribs) 02:27, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

Who is Kessie A. Amponsah? Is this entry verified?Bebofpenge (talk) 08:12, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I have added some more of the notable residents from Doris Pullen's list. She also includes three writers who do not have a Wikipedia entry. They are Eva Mcdonald, Eileen Marsh and Peter Clayton. Are any of them sufficiently well known to include them as well?Bebofpenge (talk) 05:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Public houses

I am concerned about the length of the section on public houses. I do not think it necessary to list the name and address of every pub in Penge. As far as I am aware, Penge is not known particularly for pubs so I am wondering about the relevance of the section at all. If there are no objections I plan to do a major edit of this section --Vince 08:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed you suggested this, Vince, and I see you've now done it. I'm in agreement with you: the pubs section was getting bloated. --A bit iffy 14:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Since I added 'lending its name as a bus route terminus since 1914', the entry on the Crooked Billet seems to have become a treatise on the 227 bus and a history of Penge Green. As it is by far the oldest pub in the area (probably 16th century or even earlier) would it be possible to move the bulk of this entry to a new heading? Possibly 'Penge Green' would be a sensible heading as it would cover the area of land that fronted the Crooked Billet and evolved into the bus terminus. More information on Penge Green is in the Penge library (if my memory serves me correctly). I'm 10,500 miles away from Penge, so someone else would need to check this out. Bebofpenge 06:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I think I now have enough information to add a section on Penge Green (thanks to the House of Commons Library). It should tie in neatly with the Crooked Billet and the bus terminus. I'll put up a draft when I get home.Bebofpenge 14:52, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Update: see proposed new entry at foot of this discussion page.Bebofpenge (talk) 03:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Update Pensgreene is now incorporated in the article.Bebofpenge (talk) 02:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Class

I think that this article should be considered as B class. Although it still needs editing, and some references, I think it contains a majority of the material needed for an article on a relatively small district. --Vince 15:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I have updated the infobox. We need lots of references now. Regan123 06:52, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gas explosion - St John's Cottages

Is anyone able to find a documented reference to this? I know it happened then because I was living at 5 St John's Cottages - opposite the one that exploded- when it happened.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bebofpenge (talk • contribs).

[edit] Number 12 bus

I am sure I remember the 12 having a scheduled terminating point of the Pawleyne Arms, contrary to the recent edit. Could someone else confirm this so it can be corrected. Thanks - --Vince 19:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

The route has operated for so long and has had so many changes that almost anything is possible. When the 12 ran from South Croydon, buses going out of service before running to Elmers End Garage had a Penge Pawleyne Arms destination. It then turned and ran out of service back to the garage. Buses travelling southbound carried the destination Elmers End Garage but, from 1986 to the withdrawal of the service from Penge in 1988 they carried the destination Penge Pawleyne Arms. Before this dispatchers at Oxford Circus would shorten late running services to turn in Penge and resume operation northbound. At one time buses ran from South Croydon to Harlsden with two changes of crew en route (morning and evening weekends if I remember correctly.Bebofpenge 06:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Meticulous work as always. --Vince (talk) 13:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed new section: Pensgreene (Penge Green) and the Crooked Billet

I have written this in an attempt to tidy up the Famous public houses and bus terminus section. I have incorporated most of my references in the text. Please feel free to comment.

Looks good to me. Add it in. --Vince (talk) 12:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I have copied it across and deleted quite a bit from Public Houses. I'll be adding citations over the next few days.Bebofpenge (talk) 08:05, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Crystal Palace pneumatic railway

I see that this railway has been added to the Rail section. From the little information that I have gleaned over the years, there seem to have been two pneumatic railways built - a demonstration line built for an exhibition and then dismantled and another one which tried to operate commercially in a tunnel behind the houses along the length of park side of Crystal Palace Park Rd (starting behind the old German Consulate at the top of CPPRd and terminating at the south gate of the park). All this is entirely hearsay as I had never seen a reference in any history. --Bebofpenge (talk) 10:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What area defines Penge?

There seems to be some confusion as to which area is actually Penge. It used to be simple when there was a Penge Urban District local authority, but now it is less clear cut. The change in ward boundaries has further complicated matters. Anerley ward was originally in Penge UDC but no longer exists. Instead we have Crystal Palace ward and Penge has been amalgamated with Cator. Crystal Palace (as a district rather than a ward) seems to be growing. I have even seen houses for sale on the Groves Estate being advertised as being in Crystal Palace. For the purpose of this article I suggest that we should consider the final boundaries of the Penge UDC to define the area that is covered by this article. Does anyone have a map of that? Bebofpenge (talk) 08:45, 27 April 2008 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Bebofpenge (talk • contribs) 08:40, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

This is the problem we face with many of the London district articles. It is better to be specific about periods of history where there was a functioning parish/district; and for the information regarding the current "area" avoid authorative mention of "boundaries". MRSC • Talk 20:17, 18 May 2008 (UTC)