Talk:Penal military unit

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[edit] Till the first injury?

Is it true or a legend that the service in shtrafbat automatically ended with a combat injury (do pervoy krovi). If so, it should be added to the article. Also, I don't get the meaning of the last sentence. : "In fact, it was unnecessary: those who served in penal units were unconditionally under the threat of death penalty." Why would that make zagradotryad unnecessary. Perhaps, it should be stated differently. Thanks! -Irpen 05:06, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

"1st blood": miscommunication; a rather silly idea, I would say, bearing in mind the times. Probaly arisen from the cliches of the application: "I ask to allow me to wash away with my blood my guilt before Motherland", "to purge my guilt with blood", etc. But I will try to double-check. mikka (t)

I heard earlier that standard sentence to penal unit for for three months or until the first heroic deed or combat injury. But now I searched a little to confirm and make sure. This is what I found in the first or second yandex link for the string: Штрафбат ранение. From ПОЛОЖЕНИЕ О ШТРАФНЫХ БАТАЛЬОНАХ ДЕЙСТВУЮЩЕЙ АРМИИ Signed by Zhukov on Sept. 26, 1942

1. Штрафные батальоны имеют целью дать возможность лицам среднего и старшего командного, политического и начальствующего состава всех родов войск, провинившимся в нарушении дисциплины по трусости или неустойчивости, кровью искупить свои преступления перед Родиной отважной борьбой с врагом на более трудном участке боевых действий.

9. Лица среднего и старшего командного, политического и начальствующего состава направляются в штрафные батальоны ... на срок от одного до трех месяцев.

13. За неисполнение приказа, членовредительство, побег. с поля боя или попытку перехода к врагу командный и политический состав штрафного батальона обязан применить все меры воздействия вплоть до расстрела на месте.

15. За боевое отличие штрафник может быть освобожден досрочно по представлению командования штрафного батальона, утвержденному Военным Советом фронта. За особо выдающееся боевое отличие штрафник, кроме того, представляется к правительственной награде.

17. Все освобожденные из штрафного батальона восстанавливаются в звании и во всех правах.

18. Штрафники, получившие ранение в бою, считаются отбывшими наказание, восстанавливаются в звании и во всех правах...

The link is here (closer to the bottom of the page). Irpen 05:32, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

"Last sentence": What is unclear here? They knew: turning back means execution, without any NKVD. mikka (t) 05:38, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, being killed not for, but during an attempt not to move forward is a stronger threat. I simply don't know whether barrage troops were used or not for penal units but the answer is not obvious to me from the logic. So, if this is a fact, the article should just say so. If this is an analysis, it does not seem fully convinsing. As per this the barrage troops were not used for penal batalions (units for former commanding officers) but were used for penal companies (for the rest). This is all that I could find quickly, I will look for more when I feel competent to contribute for the article. Regards, -Irpen 05:32, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious phrases

I removed this info for now as suspicious:

• ...10 years of prison equaled to 3 months of shtrafbat, 5-8 years to 2 months, 5 years or less to 1 month.
• ...convicts released from prisons and labor camps who volunteered into active military service;

mikka (t) 05:38, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Penal battalion service was very dangerous, and was often used in attempts to break through particularly stubborn enemy defences with human wave attacks. AFAIK Russians did not use human wave attacks during WWII. Germans had enough MG34s to ensure that these types of attacks were doomed to failure.

[edit] Order 227 only remained in full effect for three months! It's not relevant to this article.

"The holding units [established under Order 227] were in operation for about three months; on 29 October a new order was issued which cancelled them as from November 1942." Generals didn't implement the terms of Order 227 since they perceived it as a waste of their own troops. Hence, the alleged barrier units that were supposed to arrest deserters were more likely to be "posted to keep guard over command posts" or used to divert "less useful manpower [to] menial jobs." Combined with the negative effect it had on morale, the decision to have regular army units self-police was abandoned by the Soviet leadership shortly after it began.

From Anthony Sellas, The Value of Human Life in Soviet Warfare, (NY: Routledge, 1992) p.159.

Of course, the NKVD (as a political security force) systematically arrested deserters in the rear throughout the war. But the army did not waste its own manpower doing so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheShadowDawn (talk • contribs) 09:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)