Talk:Pelé

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More information about this article... The following comments have been left for this page: Article needs to be copyedited for grammar. It also needs a better explanation of the goal-count discrepancy if possible. Kaldari 01:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC) I think I've done the latter. See what you think. I've also done quite a bit of copyediting but there is loads more to do, especially towards the end of the article. I'm going to wait until the editing activity has died down a bit and then do a copyedit. --Jim (Talk) 00:17, 23 August 2006 (UTC) (edit)

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To-do list for Pelé:

edit · history · watch · refresh

His name is Edson. Not Edison More "early life" biographical information More biographical information for each section of his playing career, in this order of priority: Santos Brazil National team section is now in decent shape and ready for further expansion. --ChaChaFut 04:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC) Cosmos Finish work on statistics Something about his commercial career? His advertising of Viagra?? There is an error on the page which I cannot fix due to not having the correct contacts in the inner circle. "He was born in Três Corações, Brazil, the son of a football player Fluminense footballer" probably should read "He was born in Três Corações, Brazil, the son of Fluminense footballer". Of course it might also be changed to "He was born in Três Corações, Brazil, the son of a football player (Fluminense footballer Dondinho, born Joao Ramos do Bojang)". Actually that whole sentance should be rewritten as there is some confusion about his parents' names.

This Everydaylife article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia. It has been rated B-Class on the assessment scale (comments).

• Talk:Pelé/Archive 1: start-August 2006, not including the debate regarding Pele's goal-scoring record
• Talk:Pelé/Archive - Statistics: Everything related to the debate over how many goals Pelé scored, but that is no longer needed.

Contents 1 Goalscoring Stats 1.1 The Table 1.2 Comments and calculations 1.3 References 2 Now that's settled... 3 Table style change 4 Pelé Eterno redirect 5 Confusing sentences 6 Goalscoring table again... 7 1,281 or 1,282? goals 8 Problem with this paragraph in Pelé article 9 1966 world cup section 10 GA passed 11 Cultural depictions of Pelé 12 Vandalized - Faggot 13 Pele's goal-record... 14 One more meaning of Pelé 15 Greatest Player of All-Time 16 Pele's last match 17 lost silver trophie of pele found 18 lost silver trophie of pele found 19 Discoverer 20 Continuous vandalism 21 Pele vs Pelé 22 Why does Pele get different rules to all other players? 23 Edison vs. Edson 24 Sorry 25 Personal Life 26 My contribution 27 Urgent Investigation 28 Clean Up 29 Cleanup in 'Other Records' 30 About Clean Ups requested

[edit] Goalscoring Stats

[edit] The Table

Note: in reworking the table from the version presented in the article, I've removed the Totals: these were for "major" domestic club compeitions, plus the Copa Libertadores. They can still be seen in the table in the article if they are needed.

Second note: According the the official Santos website [1], Pele scored 1 in 1116. I guess this is the number we are aiming for in the bottom right hand corner of the table. --Jim (Talk) 12:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

OK. According to the big list, Pele got 1088 in 1115 for Santos. This means it is missing one game in which Pele scored 3 goals. Assuming, for the moment, that Santos have counted one to many matches, then this game could be:

• 19 June 1957, Combined Santos/Vasco - Belenenses (Portugal)
• 24 Jan 1960, Sao Paulo - Bahia
• Any one of four games August-October 1959, for military teams. However, I am assuming that Santos would either count all of these games, or none of them; so it has to be one of the first two games.

I don't have time right now to check what competitions the first two matches are from, and it might be the case that the big list (or Santos) have made other mistakes, but it's worth having this here just in case something doesn't add up on the table further along the line. --Jim (Talk) 13:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Another thought on this matter: it could be that the missing game for Santos on the big list is Pele's testimonial, where he played one half for Cosmos and one half for Santos. The final score was 2-1 to Cosmos. Pele scored one goal. So it doesn't sort out the missing hat-trick.

A few points:

1. I think that we should remove all the stars (*)
2. I think we should go with the big list as it is more verifiable than either the Santos number or 1,281.
3. I would like to see this version of the table completed and added to the article a.s.a.p.

aLii 21:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Club	Season	Domestic League Competitions								Domestic League Sub-total			Domestic Cup		International Club Competitions				Other Club Matches[1]			GRAND TOTAL
		SPS[2]		RSPS[2]		T. de Prata		Camp. Brasil.[2]					T. Brasil		Copa Libertadores		Intercontinental Cup
		Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals		Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals		Apps	Goals
Santos	1956	0*	0*							0*	0*								2*	2*[3]		2*	2*
	1957	14+15*	19+17*[4]	9	5					38*	41*								29*	16*		67*	57*
	1958	38	58	8	8					46	66								14*	14*		60*	80*
	1959	32	45	7	6					39	51		4*	2*					40*	47*		83*	100*
	1960	30	33	3	0					33	33		0	0	0	0	0	0	34*	26*		67*	59*
	1961	26	47	7	8					33	55		5*	7	0	0	0	0	36*	48*		74*	110*
	1962	26	37	0	0					26	37		5*	2*	4*	4*	2	6	13*	14*		50*	63*
	1963	19	22	8	14					27	36		4*	8	4*	5*	1	2	16	16*		52*	67*
	1964	21	34	4	3					25	37		6*	7	0*	0*	0	0	16*	13*		47*	57*
	1965	30	49	7	5					37	54		4*	2*	7*	8	0	0	18*	33*		66*	97*
	1966	14	13	0*	0*					14*	13*		5*	2*	0	0	0	0	19*	16*		38*	31*
	1967	18	17			14*	9*			32*	26*		0	0	0	0	0	0	???	???		65*	56*
	1968	21	17			17*	11*			38*	28*		0	0	0	0	0	0	???	???		73*	55*
	1969	25	26			12*	12*			37*	38*				0	0	0	0	???	???		61*	57*
	1970	15	7			13*	4*			28*	11*				0	0	0	0	???	???		54*	47*
	1971	19	8					21	1	40	9				0	0	0	0	???	???		72*	29*
	1972	20	9					16	5	36	14				0	0	0	0	???	???		74*	50*
	1973	19	11					30	19	49	30				0	0	0	0	???	???		66*	52*
	1974	10	1					17	9	27	10				0	0	0	0	???	???		49*	19*
	All	412	470	53	49	56*	36*	84	34	605*	589*		33	30	15	17[5]	3	8	???	???		1120	1088

Club	Season	NASL		Other[6]		Total
		Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals
NY Cosmos	1975	9	5	14*	10*	23*	15*
	1976	24	15	18*	11*	42*	26*
	1977	31	17	11*	6*	42*	23*
	All	64	37	43*	27*	107*	64*

• A dark grey cell means that the relevant competition did not run in the relevant year

• A "*" indicates this number was inferred from a Santos fixture list from rsssf.com and this list of games Pelé played.

[edit] Comments and calculations

[edit] References

[edit] Now that's settled...

Here's a provisional to-do list for the goalscoring stats:

• Find out, from rsssf, precisely what other tournaments Pele played in. The list can go here:
  • Taça dos Campeões Estaduais [15] - 56, 0(0); 57 1(0)
  • 1968 Campeonato Nacional [16]
  • Tournament 3
  • etc...
• Work out, preferably with the help of the wider WP community, precisely which tournaments should be counted towards league goals. Almost certainly none of the little ones listed above should be. I like the current definitions; I am just thinking that maybe the Taca Brasil should be included since, although it isn't a league tournament, it was a qualifying competition for the Copa Lib and was therefore more prestigious that your average cup.
• Add Intercontinental Cup Data
• Rework the table - it's taking up the width of the screen at the moment, and if we need another column for "other competititve competitions" then it will just be too big. How about one table for all "league" goals (as per the infobox definition) and another table for everything else? —Preceding unsigned comment added by James Kemp (talk • contribs) 09:50, 10 August 2006

---

While you were writing, I was writing this: There are many problems when trying to give the "facts" about Pele's goal scoring record.

1. How many goals did he actually score? FIFA says 1281 in 1363 games. However the big list says 1280 in 1363 games, or 1282 in 1366 games, dependant on whether you count the three friendly appearances he made after his retirement?

Hmmm. Good point. Santos are going with 1281 goals as well. Is there any way of working out what FIFA's source is? Could we write to them and ask? Santos seem to cite the same statistic [17]. I reckon we assume FIFA and Santos have got it right, and that there's some kind of error on the big list. This doesn't matter too much for the moment, as it will only put our total one goal out, and we can also carry FIFA's total. But it should be sorted out at some point. Jim (Talk) 12:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

1. When did he score his 1000th goal? Most media sources have recently put it after 909 games, in a match against Vasco. The big list says that was his 1001th goal, with the 1000th coming in his 907th game.

Interesting: assuming that these media sources are using the FIFA statistics, one would assume that - if there was a discrepancy with the big list, as there is here - they would say that the 1000th goal was earlier than the big list, not later. The big list is taken from a book called Pelé: O Supercampeão by Orlando Duarte. According to WorldCat this is only available in some libraries in the US: depending on where you are based, do you think you could put in an interlibrary loan? I will try here (Edinburgh), too. Interestingly enough, there was a book published called "Pele: the autobiography" by the same guy (Duarte). Maybe that contains a list of statistics. The British Library have it, if you are near London; I will try and get the National Library of Scotland to sort out a copy.Jim (Talk) 12:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

1000 gol marcado em 19 de novembro de 1969, às 23h11, em sua 909º partida, Vasco 1 - Santos 2, com 65.157 pagantes. He scored his 1000th goal 19 Novembre, 1969, by 23:11 o'clock, in his 909th match. It was Vasco 1 x 2 Santos, with 65.157 people attending and broadcasted to the entire nation (Brazil). The goal was by Penalty. There's the possibility that 1 goal was skipped and that this was actually the 1001th goal. I'll have to research this fact though. Regards Loudenvier 14:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify the situation, the big list claims that this goal was Pele's 1001st. It agrees with the details of the match though, and that this was Pele's 909th match. Loudenvier: could you post the source from which you are taking the above Portuguese? And Ali, what other media sources claim this goal as the 1000th? When do these sources say Pele's first game was? It's just that if they are not counting the first game the big list gives, in which Pele scored 1 goal, then everything is just about sorted without too much hassles: although this is somewhat of a cut and shut method. Jim (Talk) 15:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I have an overhelming amount of sources because I'm brazilian. The difficult lies in filtering the sources. I have even the escalation of Vasco and Santos. The Goal was scored agains the goalkeeper from Argentina Andrada, which is something ironic due to the rivalry between Brazil and Argentina. The source for my statement before was the portuguese wikipedia (pt.wikipedia.org). I'll come with somethin interesting soon. Loudenvier 17:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

1. What competitions were national league competitions? I think there is a good arguement for saying the four currently mentioned, but equally for saying just the Sao Paolo league.

Personally I think this should be decided by the WP community. This may have already been done implicitly: if you check out the infobox for Rivelino, who played in Brazil between 65 and 78, he is given 500 odd appearances and 194 goals; could we work out the basis on which this is calculated? What other Brazilian players of that era have infoboxes with their appearance and goal record in it? Maybe we should defer to rsssf.com on this.

I got in touch with the guy that did the stats for the Rivelino article and he says the following:

Hi Jim! I got the Rivelino information from the Corinthians Almanac(an actual book). His club did not play international games at the time, so my mission was easier. I got the information for Fluminense from hthe club website; and the international games from the RSSF Brasil. There was not a proper Brazilian league until 71, so it is generally accepted that the "Rio Sao Paulo" and "Copa Brasil" are considered as domestic leagues. Besides that, the regional championship (Paulista for Corinthians, Carioca for Fluminense) are played officialy in the beginning of the year). I do not see any problem in using the same criteria for Pelé.

I will check out the Fluminese website and see if I can get some more information. Jim (Talk) 08:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

1. Exactly what were all these hundreds of other games Pele played? How can they be classified? Are there many sources for this? Jim (Talk) 17:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Some will be in those small tournaments you found. Others are for Army teams. But I think the vast majority will be in exhibition games for Santos and Cosmos. The ones for Santos are listed somewhere on rsssf.com. I think they also list the ones for Cosmos: at the bottom of each season's info page. Jim (Talk) 17:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The Portugeuse Wikipedia article has loads of good statistics on this. Do you reckon you could translate, Loudevinir?:

I'm a litle short of time right now... I'll translate it as soon as possible... Loudenvier 21:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• Seleção do 6º Grupo de Artilharia de Costa Motorizado (6º GACosM)(1959), 11 gols
• Seleção Paulista (1959-60 e 1968/69), 11 gols
• Seleção das Forças Armadas (1959), 4 gols
• Seleção dos Sind. dos Atletas-SP (1961/62), 3 gols
• Seleção do Sudeste (1983), 1 gol
• Seleção dos Amigos do Garrincha, 1 gol
• Seleção Norte Americana de Astros (1975)
• Seleção dos ex-atletas do New York Cosmos (1984)
• Seleção Brasileira de Seniores (1987)

In total they're listing the following competitions he played in:

Campeonato Paulista

1957 - Santos (17 gols)

1958 - Santos (58 gols)

1959 - Santos (45 gols)

1960 - Santos (33 gols)

1961 - Santos (47 gols)

1962 - Santos (37 gols)

1963 - Santos (22 gols)

1964 - Santos (34 gols)

1965 - Santos (49 gols)

1969 - Santos (26 gols)

1973 - Santos (11 gols)

Copa América

1959 - Brasil (8 gols)

Campeonato Brasileiro das Forças Armadas

1959 - Seleção da 6ª Grupo de Artilharia de Costa Motorizado (6º GACosM)(11 gols)

Campeonato Sul Americano das Forças Armadas

1959 - Seleção Brasileira das Forças Armadas (11 gols)

Taça Brasil

1961 - Santos (9 gols)

1963 - Santos (12 gols)

Torneio Rio-São Paulo

1961 - Santos (7 gols)

1963 - Santos (15 gols)

1964 - Santos (3 gols)

1965 - Santos (7 gols)

Mundial Interclubes

1962 - Santos (3 gols)

Taça Libertadores da América

1963 - Santos (11 gols)

Jim (Talk) 17:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think also that it would be useful, and put to rest most of this squabble if Pele's complete seasonal tally of games/goals would be added to the end of the table. From the big list I total it as (I would like this double checking):

Definitely. But I think we need to be careful how we present the statistics box, so that we include sub-totals for "league" games, other competitive games, non competitive games, etc. Jim (Talk) 17:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

• 1956: 2 (2) - double-checked. 2(2) for Santos Jim (Talk)
• 1957: 73 (65) - double-checked. 4(6) for "Combined Santos/Vasco"; 2(2) For Brazil; 67 (57) for Santos Jim (Talk)
• 1958: 67 (90) - double-checked. 7(10) for Brazil; 60(80) for Santos Jim (Talk)
• 1959: 103 (126) - double-checked. 3(3) for "Army National Team"; 1(0) for "Army A"; 6(11) for "Sixth Coast Guard"; 2(1) for Sao Paulo; 8(11) for Brazil; 83(100) for Santos Jim (Talk)
• 1960: 82 (73) - double-checked. 6(6) for Sao Paulo; 9(8) for Brazil; 67(59) For Santos. Jim (Talk)
• 1961: 75 (111) - double-checked. 1(1) For "Syndicate of Athletes of Sao Paulo"; 74(110) for Santos Jim (Talk)
• 1962: 59 (73) - double-checked. 8(8) for Brazil; 1(2) for "Syndicate of Athletes of Sao Paulo"; 50(63) for Santos Jim (Talk)
• 1963: 59 (74) - double-checked. 7(7) for Brazil; 52(67) for Santos Jim (Talk)
• 1964: 50 (58) - double-checked. 3(1) for Brazil; 47(57) for Santos Jim (Talk)
• 1965: 74 (106) - double-checked. 8(9) for Brazil; 66(97) for Santos Jim (Talk)
• 1966: 50 (43) - double-checked. 12(12) for Brazil; 38(31) for Santos Jim (Talk)
• 1967: 65 (56) - double-checked. 65(56) for Santos. Jim (Talk)
• 1968: 80 (60) 82(60) - could someone triple check? Jim (Talk)
  • Yeah, looks like my mistake. 842-761=81 (+1) = 82 aLii 02:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
    • 1(1) For Sao Paulo; 8(4) for Brazil; 73(55) for Santos.
• 1969: 78 (68) - double-checked. 14(10) for Brazil; 3(1) for Sao Paolo; 61(57) for Santos Jim (Talk)
• 1970: 75 (59) - double-checked. 21(12) for Brazil; 54(47) for Santos. Jim (Talk)
• 1971: 74 (30) - double-checked. 2(1) for Brazil; 72(29) for Santos. Jim (Talk)
• 1972: 74 (50) - double-checked. 74(50) for Santos. Jim (Talk)
• 1973: 67 (53) - double-checked. 1(1) for "Brazilian Selection"; 66(52) for Santos. Jim (Talk)
• 1974: 45 (19) - double-checked. 45(19) for Santos Jim (Talk)

Cosmos years:

• 1975: 23 (15) - double-checked. 23(15 for Cosmos Jim (Talk)
• 1976: 44 (26) - double-checked. 2(0) for "American All-Stars", 1(0) For Brasil (although this may not be a full international, as it was against Flamengo), 41(26) for Cosmos Jim (Talk)
• 1977: 42 (23) - double-checked. 42(23) for Cosmos Jim (Talk)

aLii 11:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

All double-checked. However, I think it would be better if we separated out Pele's appearances for Santos/Cosmos from other appearances (e.g., for military teams, Brazil, etc.). I've done a few years and added info to table above. --Jim (Talk) 12:29, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Table style change

Inspired by the stats table at Hank Aaron (He's a baseball player, and in baseball they're kind of into their stats) I've changed the table above to allow us to enter every single goal Pele scored in Santos colours, and also to give a subtotal to make it clear which goals we're counting as "Domestic League". What do you think? We would still need somewhere to put apps/goals for army teams, and other teams Pele played for, but I think this is a good way of dealing with the Santos statistics. Jim (Talk) 10:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pelé Eterno redirect

I'm curious, why does Pelé Eterno redirect to Pelé? - ChaChaFut 03:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Pelé Eterno is a Portuguese documentary about Pelé. I'm not sure why the redirect was initially setup: perhaps because someone thought the documentary didn't deserve its own page, and because there is a little information about it on the Pelé article. Even the Portuguese Wikipedia doesn't have that much information on the documentary [18], but perhaps someone could create a stub on the English Wikipedia? I'm not sure if it was released in English-speaking countries, but the imdb do give it an English title [19] so I guess we can assume it was. --Jim (Talk) 10:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing sentences

The two sentences below are very confusing to me:
The table below attempts to record every goal Pelé scored in competitive club competition for Santos and New York Cosmos. At this moment it is known of various games that are not included (for instance Pelé's 7 goals in the Intercontinental Cup), but all major annual competitions are included.
Can someone rewrite this so that it makes sense (and has correct grammar)? What exactly is included in the table and what isn't? You can't say that it is "every goal" but "various games are not included". That sounds contradictory. If it is just a list of "all major annual competitions", it should simply say that. Kaldari 01:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This has been fixed. Kaldari 06:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Goalscoring table again...

Glad to see Pele got the WPF AID. It's just a bummer that my dissertation is due on Friday, or I would do more serious work. Maybe I'll have my own AID for Pele next week.

One thing I would like to see by the end of the week is the expanded goals table being included in the article. With this in mind, what do you all reckon about merging the last two columns, so that all of Pele's goals in friendlies and small competitions are in one column? This could be headed "Other Club Goals" and a note be put in to explain precisely what this meant. I really don't want to go through the entire goal list and pin each goal to a competition or friendly, but at least this way of working would give someone else the option to do this in the future. --Jim (Talk) 23:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1,281 or 1,282? goals

Twice this article states that Pele is credited with scoring 1,281 goals, and twice the article states that he scored a total of 1,282 goals. The article should either cite one statistic consistantly or explain the descrepancy within the article text. That is, if we believe the 1,282 stat is correct and the 1,281 stat is incorrect, we need to explain why in the article. Otherwise it is an unexplained contradiction. Kaldari 06:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The lower number is the more often quoted. The higher number comes from the big excel file, which claims that it counts a few friendly games from the end of his career that aren't usually counted. However if one removes these (3, I think) games, then Pele's goals go down to 1,280 (he scored 2 in one game), so the numbers still aren't consistent. I guess 1,281 is the number we should probably go with. aLii 08:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

If we are going to resolve this I think we'll need get hold of some more official statistics. Does the IFFHS supply this for free? Otherwise, there is the Duarte book which lists every one of Pele's goals. It would be good to get this resolved. --Jim (Talk) 16:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it would especially be good to get this resolved before Wikipedia Version 0.5 is finalized. The review period for 0.5 is scheduled to end on September 30th. After that, some version of this article will be written into stone (or more likely a DVD). It would be unfortunate to have this ambiguity remaining in the version selected for 0.5. Alternatively, why is not possible to just explain the discrepancy within the text of the article? Right now the reader is still left with the question of "Why does Wikipedia claim that Pele scored 1,282 goals if most sources say he scored 1,281?". Putting "See also the talk page" in the article (as it does now) is absolutely not acceptable (since Wikipedia self-references are not allowed). We should either remove the discrepency or add a paragraph to the article text (not in the notes) which says which sources claim 1,281 and which sources claim 1,282 and let the reader decide for themselves. Kaldari 20:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I have resolved the goalscoring discrepancy for now. See this edit for my changes. Kaldari 01:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problem with this paragraph in Pelé article

I have a problem with the following statement made in the Pelé article:

"Although the Brazilian domestic league system provided every single starter from the 1958, 1962, and 1970 Brazil World Cup Champions,[32] perhaps leading one to the assumption that it was the world's strongest league during the years of Pelé's career, one also has to take into account the state nature of the league. At the time Santos mainly played against other teams from the São Paulo region, whereas the best players were spread around teams all across Brazil"

If you're going to make that claim you should at least elaborate on that. For example, mention the fact that in 1958 and 1962 all players on the brazilian national team played in either São Paulo or Rio De Janeiro and in 1970 only 5 players played outside of those two states. Besides the São Paulo state championship there was also the Torneio Rio-São Paulo which Santos and Pelé participated in every year. So, in essence, Pelé did,in fact,play against the best players in Brasil year in and year out. You don't make it seem that way in the aforementioned paragraph.

--R9magia 00:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Reword it then, but be warned; the previous incarnation of this paragraph had some rubbish about Pele's feats being even more incredible due to the fact that all the best players in the world played in Brazil at the time. The fact is that the Brazilian domestic football scene was incredibly diluted compared to the top leagues of any European nation.

Note that Pele never played more than 8 games in a season in the Torneio Rio-São Paulo, and only twice did he average more than a goal a game. In the Taça de Prata and Campeonato Brasileiro Pele never got close ot averaging a goal a game. However in the weaker Campeonato Paulista, where he played most of his competitive matches, Pele averaged more than a goal a game in ten seperate seasons. I personally think the numbers back up the above highlighted sentence. aLii 20:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1966 world cup section

the "hungary" link links to portugal not hungary.

The good thing is you can fix it yourself, by pressing the "edit this page" button. Anyways, it is now corrected :) Poulsen 11:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Why is Pele regarded as "The Greatest" like if it was a fact of life?? What makes Pele stand out among other Football Greats? His 3 World Cups of course, Pele is praised as having won 3 World Cups (1958, 1962, and 1970) -while in reality- Pele won 2 World Cups (1958 and 1970 - Kind of makes him closer to Zidane and Maradona, doesn't it?), as Brazil actually won the 1962 World Cup without Pele. Garrincha was the outstanding figure of the 1962 World Cup, and Pele's absence was hardly noticeable. And a fact that is so massively overlooked is the fact that the 1958 Brazil side was clearly better than the 1962 Brazil - Now this last statement will always state that "if Brazil won the 1962 World Cup without Pele, then Brazil could have easily won the 1958 and 1970 World Cups without Pele". By the way, The teams that faced Brazil in the 1958 World Cup, well here's an interesting quote from a player who faced Brazil in 1958, Mel Hopkins - "Garrincha was considered more of a threat than Pele back then" "a phenomenon, capable of sheer magic". In fact Didi was voted as the player of the tournament in the 1958 World Cup. Pele was impressive for only being 17 years old, but Pele was NOT the best player of the 1958 World Cup - Both Didi and Garrincha were more outstanding. (Luis, Spain)

Another noticeable fact about Pele, is his unique World Cup record; played 2 out of 4 World Cups, he suffered injuries in 1962 and 1966. It is an odd record because players usually play through the pain barrier, this is the FIFA World Cup Tournament and injured players usually play through it. A noticeable fact about Pele's World Cup record is the fact that Pele only managed to deliver when Brazil had dream-teams, that is Pele only managed to deliver in 1958 and 1970. I mean, did Brazil needed Pele in 1958 and 1970?? Of course not!! they could've easily afforded to play without Pele, just like in 1962. Now, why couldn't Pele deliver when Brazil could not afford to play without him?? Why couldn't Pele deliver in 1966?? What happened in 1962 and 1966?? Well, firstly it is important to acknowledge the fact that Brazil used the same exact 11 players in the 1958 and 1962 World Cups (with a slight difference in 1962, as Pele suffered an injury in the Opening Group Match). In 1966 Brazil used the same aging champions, with a slight change as Nilton Santos didn't figured in the team. Now, unlike in 1958 and 1962 - in 1966 the ex-champions were way past their prime, and they were already veterans by 1962. By 1966 Garrincha was finished, Nilton Santos gone, and Brazil (unlike in 1958, 1962 and 1970)fully depended on Pele. What happened?? Just like in 1962, when things got tough, Pele got injured.. and with Pele's injury, Brazil's hopes of defending the title ended, just like that. (Luis, Spain)

Now the bottom line of the point I'm trying to make is - Pele could not withstand the pressure of playing with average teams, he could not handle the physical pressure, his body could not take it, and proof of that are the 1962 and 1966 World Cups - Pele could not withstand the demands that come hand in hand with being a team's focal point. On the other hand, when Brazil had dream teams playing, that is; Garrincha, Didi, Nilton Santos, Rivelino, Jairzinho, Gerson, Carlos Alberto, etc, etc.. It was in this star-studded sides that Pele managed to deliver because he had freedom, he had space, he had less pressure from opponents because opponents were too busy trying to mark Garrincha. In other words, with the Brazilian veterans of 1962 and 1966 - Pele received more attention and pressure from opponents as Pele was the only player in his prime, only 25 years old by 1966. Luckily for Brazil, Garrincha played by 1962.. but unfortunately there was no Garricnha to save them in 1966. Pele is one of the greatest, that's unquestionable -but- Pele never managed to deliver as his team's focal point, Pele was never a leader for Brazil, Pele never managed to deliver under the same circumstances as Garrincha, Johan Cruijff, and Diego Armando Maradona. (Luis, Spain) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.50.81.81 (talk) 08:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA passed

1. Well written? Pass

2. Factually accurate? Pass

3. Broad in coverage? Pass

4. Neutral point of view? Pass

5. Article stability? Pass

6. Images? Pass

Additional comments :

• The article should state his name as Pelé not as sometimes written Pele (that should be easy to fix).
• The end of the section Santos is a bit weak.
• In the table, the club names should be valigned in the center.

Lincher 17:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of Pelé

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 15:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalized - Faggot

Edson Arantes do Nascimento, KBE (born October 23, 1940 in Três Corações, Brazil), best known by his nickname Pelé, is a former Brazilian faggot, and widely regarded to be the greatest of all time. In his native Brazil, Pelé is hailed as a national hero for his accomplishments and contribution to the game, [2] in addition to being officially declared a national threat to society by the Brazilian government. During his career, he became known as "The King of Faggotry" (O Rei do Fagawt) or simply "The Fag Pelé" (O Rei Pelé). He was given the title Footballer of the Century by FIFA and Athlete of the Century by the International Olympic Committee.[3]

I didn't change it myself, because I don't know how to check the IP that made that change, so it can be banned or something.

201.233.30.222 09:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)Tester

I reverted it and warned the vandal. For information on how to fix vandalism yourself, see Help:Reverting and Wikipedia:Vandalism. Oldelpaso 10:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pele's goal-record...

Over the summer a few of us did a lot of work on sorting out Pele's goal record, and we added a good list of statistics to the main article. We then modified the statistics a little and kept our progress on the Talk Page, with a few to eventually moving it over. The table still isn't finished, but all that remains to be done is a bit of donkey work (the cells with "question marks" can be easily inferred with a little subtraction). I've moved the table into the article in the hope that someone will do the donkey work for me!! --Jim (Talk) 01:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] One more meaning of Pelé

In Lithuanian language the word 'Pelė' means both Mouse and Mouse (computing). See House Mouse (in Lithuanian)

Similar to Lithuanian language is Latvian language. In Latvian language the word 'Pele' have the same meanings as the word 'Pelė' in Lithuanian language. See Mouse (in Latvian)

But the Lithuanian word 'Pelė' is almost exact as the word 'Pelé'.

Robertukas 16:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greatest Player of All-Time

I can provide a large number of links to media and/or expert polls ranking Pele as the best footballer in history. Other than a controversial Internet fan poll that favored Maradona, I know of no other widely publicized poll that did not rank Pele as the top player in history. For that reason, I think it is certainly fair to say that he is widely considered the greatest player of all-time. That choice of words does not assert that it is necessarily the case, or that the certain individuals are not free to disagree, it merely states a belief that is widely held, based on the bulk of the evidence available. If necessary, I'll provide links for the many polls or rankings if anyone thinks that is appropriate or necessary. Ronnymexico 14:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Ronny, your insertion of "A consensus of media and expert polls rank Pele as the greatest footballer of all-time. [26]" is still a problem in my view. If these polls are notable (some seem not in my opinion) then they should be listed as, for example, "Pele came top of France Football's Football Player of the Century poll". This should be stated rather than just "A consensus of media and expert polls rank Pele as the greatest footballer of all-time". Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 15:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you feel that it's a problem because they aren't spelled out or because you don't feel that it's a consensus? I figured that the "consensus" statement was proven via the link (there are others that aren't there as well, BBC and L'Equipe off the top of my head, I have a list somewhere that I can track down) and thought it would help make the page less cluttered and easier to navigate by simply providing the link rather than listing out "France Football ranks Pele as the best", "International Federation of Football History and Statistics' poll ranks Pele as the best," "La Republicca ranks Pele as the best," "Placar Magazine ranks Pele as the best," etc. etc. Ronnymexico 15:37, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, listing each individual one would be too cluttered. How about "In media and expert polls, Pele consistantly ranks top.", or something along those lines. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 12:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pele's last match

Pele's stub on his last match contains some inaccuracies. I suggest it be expanded as follows:

On October 1, 1977, Pelé closed out his legendary career in an exhibition match between the Cosmos and Santos. Santos arrived in New York and New Jersey after previously defeating the Seattle Sounders 2-0. The match was played in front of a capacity crowd at Giants Stadium and was televised in the United States on ABC's Wide World of Sports as well as throughout the world. Pele's father and wife both attended the match. Pele gave a brief pre-match speech during which he asked the crowd to say the word "love" with him three times.

Pele played the first half for the Cosmos and the second half for Santos. Reynaldo scored the first goal for Santos, kicking the ball into the net after it had deflected off the crossbar. Pele then scored his final goal on a direct free kick, driving the ball past the diving Santos goalkeeper.

At halftime, the Cosmos retired Pele's number 10. Pele presented his Cosmos shirt to his father, who was escorted to the field by Cosmos captain Werner Roth.

During the second half, Cosmos striker Ramon Mifflin, who had replaced Pele when he switched sides at halftime, scored on a deflected cross, and the Cosmos won the match 2-1. After the match, Pele was embraced by the Cosmos players, including longtime rival Giorgio Chinaglia, and then ran around the field while holding an American flag in his left hand and a Brazilian flag in his right hand. Pele was soon lifted by several Cosmos players and carried around the field.

After the match, Pele and his wife gave a tearful interview to Frank Gifford of ABC with his wife at his side. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Daesups16 (talk • contribs) 05:19, 15 April 2007 (UTC).

"He is also recognized as the only football player to score more than one thousand goals in the history of professional football."

That is totally wrong...

romario has equalled this tally now, - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6675363.stm but he admits this included youth games and friendly.--Numberwang 10:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] lost silver trophie of pele found

i work with a brazilen and he happen to find a silver trophy from brylcreem in the name of pele's name , does anybody now if he lost a trophie dated in 1961 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.19.163.83 (talk) 21:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] lost silver trophie of pele found

he happened to go to brazil 17 years ago and went to visit family members, he says he was washing clothing outside and looked up at a window that had an old antique cup on it with tooth brushes in it, he looked up at the cup and grabed it to look at, when he noticed some engraving on it he cleaned it and it read taca de brazil pele's name, brlycreem the reason why he recevied it which was for scoreing the most goals for that year 1961 then he asked the the guy who lived there who was a friend if he can have it and he said he had that cup on his window for years and he was tired of looking at it and he can have it not nowing what it actualy was. i'm writeing this becauce the guy that has this trophie showed it to me and he said he had it for 17 years on his mantal he finaly wanted to now if it was authentic which he says it is but he wants to sell it. personly i think it's real but i have now way of nowing this unless i make it public or some one give me information on going about getting some attention for this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.19.163.83 (talk) 22:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Discoverer

Who is this Medardo 'Lalo' Olea? Is he really a "renowned football star"? Clarityfiend 01:21, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I second Clarityfiend's question. I follow football quite closely but I've never heard of this Medardo character. It would be good to have this point clarified. MUSIKVEREIN 20:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like BS to me. Google shows little. A website with the same text as en:WP (so we may have a copyvio issue), and a car dealership in Eureka, Cailfornia showing a picture of a salesman called Medardo Olea. The interesting issue here is that his email address includes the nickname 'Lalo' (Note that Lalo is a common nickname in Spanish). Sounds fishy to me. Now we have to check the logs to see when this was added and by whom. Would you care to bet it came from an ISP serving Eureka, California? Alexf^{(Talk/Contribs)} 21:23, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

That's what I thought. I've changed it based on a Time magazine source. Clarityfiend 19:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Good show, Clarityfiend. That Medardo bit was most likely a vandalistic hoax. MUSIKVEREIN 20:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Continuous vandalism

Barely a day goes by without some troll vandalising the Pelé page, thus causing many good faith editors - myself included - the trouble of having to undo insults, POV remarks and inaccuracies thrown in there on a daily basis. Most if not all of these disturbers are anons whose only purpose is to violate the Wikipedia rules. The latest perpetrator, a certain 209.50.156.164, is a case in point: go to his talk page and all you'll find is a staggering roster of warning and temporary blocking messages (to no avail, since he is at it again as soon as the block is lifted). These "users" should be blocked indefinitely. Also, isn't there a technical way to protect the Pelé page from further editing, at least for some time ? MUSIKVEREIN 18:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

You can request page protection, in which case IP and new users will not be able to edit the article. I will do this now, as it appears the article is vandalized quite frequently. Jack?! 15:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Jack?!. That's exactly what I had in mind. Let's see if giving the page some respite will improve matters at least a little. MUSIKVEREIN (talk) 18:49, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pele vs Pelé

His nickname definitely carries the accent on the second "e", otherwise, it would not represent how this word is spoken. "Pele", is the word for "skin" in Portuguese, while "pelé" has some other origin . Therefore, I'm replacing all instances of "Pele" in the article for "Pelé". hawck (talk) 01:13, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

It's pointless to use pronunciation as proof of spelling; otherwise we could start respelling all kinds of names. The point is that Pele is an anglicised form of the nickname. Since this article is in English, it would be justifiable to use that spelling. I think it's fine to use the accented form, but you shouldn't just dismiss the alternative in the way that you did. What use is it to say that Pelé has "some other origin" as if that proves anything? Salopian (talk) 10:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why does Pele get different rules to all other players?

I'm just curious. We have a table even in his article, with indepedent sources which say in the league for Santos he scored 589 goals in 605 games, but until I made an edit to correct the infobox it included the unofficial games in the player template.. yet the player template specifically states "Senior club appearances and goals counted for the domestic league only." :$ ... is this not a double standard? All players need to have the same standard. - Sivorian (talk) 22:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edison vs. Edson

There is a controversy now going on the page about the correct spelling of Pelé's real name. What happens is that Pelé was effectively registered as "Edison", because his father got the name from the American inventor Thomas Edison. However, since the form "Edson" is vastly more popular in Brazil, that is the spelling that came to be associated with Pelé's name, and that is how his real name is written virtually everywhere in that country (newspapers, magazines, books, etc.). So, there it is: "Edison" is technically and formally the correct spelling, but everybody in Brazil refers to Pelé's real name as "Edson". MUSIKVEREIN (talk) 13:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

He is definitely named after Thomas Edison, but he's very explicit in his autobiography that his name is Edson. He does not say that it's Edison on the birth certificate but came to be Edson. Might it not be the case that his father used the Edson spelling when registering his birth? Salopian (talk) 11:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, Pelé's father registered him as "Edison", exactly like the inventor, and that can be clearly seen in his birth certificate. However and for the reason I pointed out above, everybody in Brazil writes his "real" name as Edson. Therefore, if you want to be technically accurate, it's Edison; if you want to go the way his real name is referred to in his country, it's Edson. Perhaps a way to put an end to this apparently never-ending controversy is to mention this circumstance on his page. MUSIKVEREIN (talk) 12:29, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

No, it's nothing to do with 'everybody in Brazil'. It's what his family called him from the start. (What I imagine may have happened is that the clerk wrote down Edison, assuming the father to be undecuated.) Salopian (talk) 01:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I haven't seen his birth certificate. Where can I view it? However, the point is that he was called Edson from birth, regardless of what he he was registered as. So it should be made clear that Edson is not a form that took over once he was famous, but that it was the name his family gave him. Salopian (talk) 10:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Pelé's birth certificate can be seen in Aníbal Massaini's documentary feature "Pelé Eterno" (which translates loosely to "Pelé Forever"). In the first part of the movie, there's a camera close up on the certificate, and Pelé's registered name comes through quite clearly. MUSIKVEREIN (talk) 12:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

If "technically" his name was registered as Edison, than Edson is much more a nickname than his name de facto. "Edison" is the name his family gave to him, and in terms of Law he is known as "Edison". It may, perhaps, be pointed that, nevertheless, he's more known as "Edson", but cannot state that this is his name. --Tonyjeff (talk) 23:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

No, his de facto name is definitely Edson: unless he is lying in his autobiography, he was called that by his family from birth. It's his de jure name that is apparently Edison. Salopian (talk) 01:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

There is no point in arguing de jure and de facto names. I may create a nickname for myself and become more known by it, being called so by relatives and anybody else. The nickname may be a misspelling of my name (in fact, something very common in Brazil). Even so, my name will be the original one, which is registered in my birth certificate. It may be pointed that he is more known as Edson, but not state that this is his name. --Tonyjeff (talk) 14:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

De facto implies something much stronger than just a nickname, and as such describes the situation here. I don't know about Brazilian law, but in the U.K. one can use a different name legally, so long as one uses it everywhere in one's life, without changing it by deed poll. Anyway, the point is that you cannot just state that one's unequivocal name is the one on one's birth certificate. I have no idea about Wikipedia guidelines -- do they state that full name means 'string of letters on one's birth certificate'? Certainly the article should state both what's on the certificate and what he was called from birth unless someone here actually knows what they are talking about when it comes to Brazilian law. You need to get into a neutral mindset, instead of talking about the version used by the family as a "misspelling" of the certificate version. Salopian (talk) 12:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

In Brazil, one must modify the registry of the name to be considered legally, just like Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva and José Sarney. Otherwise, it will be just like a nickname. I have already said that it may be pointed that he is more known as Edson, but not state that this is his name. Even because, if we should consider his name the nick by which he is more known, it would be "Pelé". --Tonyjeff (talk) 04:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry

sry for my last mistake, inadvertently I press "save page" instead of "show preview" anyway is good to see that this page had acquired some protection and I agree with Sivorian that all players must have the same standard —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cybershore (talk • contribs) 02:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Personal Life

Other than the info about his early life, this entry contains no information about Pele's personal life: girlfriends, wives, children, residences, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.209.105 (talk) 06:03, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

- Perhaps just because it's not interesting. 78.82.231.237 (talk) 21:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] My contribution

Hi, I've made a contribution on "Others Records" section of Pele main article. I 'd like to receive commentaries and talk about Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cybershore (talk • contribs) 04:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Cybershore, I left a note on your talk page about this. Regards, MUSIKVEREIN (talk) 16:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Urgent Investigation

I suggest that it's necessary to look for more sources of referring information to the statistics since the main used here ( the RSSSF ) does not seem to be inside of acceptable standards of research, it does not present full account of detailed source not provided data for cross validation and comparison with other 'institutions' and all this are essential to avoid the proliferation of Data snooping in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.52.189.184 (talk) 19:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clean Up

I believe the article about Pele are good but need a clean up or Better explanations about some claims and other player’s names included, basically those names and claims that don’t add nothing to the article and seems, without better reason, just placed to make stand out these same claims ( without fundaments ) and names. I put here my arguments :

1)Maradona : in the FiFa poll by internet some years ago he “won” it with irregularities as for example having 4,000 votes from just one same ID from Argentina and the guy who did it subscribed himself to vote as "george bush jr.". Pele then recognized the sense of humour and the comicality of situation and accepted divide the award ( The Player of the Century ). I content that this important fact must be quote or the mentions about the other player and this award (just one more received by Pele) should be rethinked;

2)Bican : There is no evidence from anywhere Or reliable arguments from more than one independent and established statical institutions that provide the claims about Bican’s supposed records and

3)The claims from these people insist in count only the goals scored by Pele in Championships Leagues But make the curious and rough mistake in consider the goals scored by him in short term International Tournaments between European and South American teams – a very common event in 1960’s – as if scored in friendly matches what seems not just a coarse error but a aforethought and ill-meaning act.

I hope have helped to give some light about this matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.62.138.203 (talk) 00:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree there are too much names with flaw claims against him —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.62.34.26 (talk) 19:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup in 'Other Records'

I tagged the 'Other Records' section for cleanup--the first paragraph is okay, but the remaining paragraphs have not only grammatical and spelling problems, but also don't read as an encyclopedia should.

The information it presents may be useable in a rewrite, but it definitely needs to be rewritten, as.....well, there's just so much wrong with it--including, as I just noticed, barely relevant, if not completely irrelevant, information concerning Brazilian football teams in general. I'll add an importance-sect template right now.

Excantiaris (talk) 00:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I've not altered this section but I have tried to correct the terible grammar where I can so I think this makes sense now.

ElGreco55 17:12, 13 March 2008

As not everyone can edit this "Encyclopedia that anyone can edit" There's a bad link behind the penalty cards link in "other records" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.216.82.210 (talk) 10:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] About Clean Ups requested

Last edition explained:

1st paragraph, after check the complain in Clean up let by 189.62.138.203 (talk) 00:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC) about the excess of names and flaw claims I found some links about the bad organized FIFA internet poll in 2000, I quote one of them here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/1066833.stm specially FROM 3rd and 4th paragraphs to the end. So, to don´t let a negative citation about another player and since this award are really just another one received by Pele I removed this mention as well as the mentions about some names and claims ( other records section – 2nd paragraph from “However, some remember…” to “…a much more modest number came through.” ) that seems placed here just to stand out at Pele’s expenses;

I also rename this same section “Other Records” to “Some Historical Details”, off course this not yet a good name but I think is more related to the matter than the old one anyway feel free to place a better Head for this section.

The last change was made in the same section, last paragraph related to penalty cards, changing for a valid link. I found some citations about Pele as goalkeeper but as no one link ( from those I founded ) was in english I let the request pending.