Talk:Peace symbol

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In the opening line, what is (☮ U+262E) supposed to display? In my browser (IE6), it displays a square and the jumble U+262E. What is it supposed to look like? Is there a way to fix it? —Frecklefoot 17:24, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

See the runes article discussion page and follow the link to the runic font.


There are more peace symbols than this one.. Shouldn't we discuss olive branches, doves etc. in this article? [[User:Sverdrup|❝Sverdrup❞]] 02:27, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

White dove with branch: It could be pointed out that the symbol of the olive branch is much older than the bible. I've read somewhere that it has its origin in one of the first conventions of war: you should not harm the olive trees (because they take so long to bear fruit). If i had a source i would put it in. -- Michael


What about the hand sign for peace using two fingers. Does anyone know the origin of that? Is it related to V-for-victory? --Carl 05:27, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Fourth Spoke

The original peace symbol did not have the fourth spoke (at 6 o'clock). It kinda looks like the Mercedes symbol, except the 12 o'clock spoke was longer than the two lower spokes. Also, Mercedes spokes are tapered, the peace sign spokes are straight.

I think the article should mention the original three-spoke peace sign. Jigen III 06:41, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


The original drawings by Gerald Holtom, which are now in Bradford, show that this is not the case. Howard Clark (talk) 14:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed B. Mistler 18:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmistler (talk • contribs)

The first I've seen of the "peace sign" not including the fourth spoke has been during the last few years. I assumed the people displaying it in that form were simply ... whatever the symbology counterpart would be to "illiterate." I especially love the three-spoke versions that I've seen that were upside-down. Those are a hoot and a half. McGehee (talk) 02:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Issues

Shouldn't this have the anti-war template?

Furthermore, shouldn't we have an image showing the original N an D symbols, for comparison with the 'unified' modern peace symbol?


The "peace flag" section is quite poorly written. I have made some small grammatical changes but it needs a larger overhaul. In particular the portion discussing the symbolism of the rainbow (especially the phrase "pacific coexistence of people" which, if it makes sense, should be elaborated on - as of now I have no idea what it means) is badly constucted. Also, the discussion of the manufacturer of the flag should refer more directly to the circumstances which led to such a massive increase in production. Or perhaps the whole section should be rewritten in a more chronological fashion, first talking about the history and symbology of the flag, THEN discussing it's recent rise in popularity. -- Chad

[edit] Dove's foot?

I always understood the symbol to emblematic of a foot of a dove. Perhaps I'm way off base there. YearginSM 06:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

You are. Read the article. Michael.Urban (talk) 16:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dove holding olive branch?

Shouldn't we have a picture of it? Isn't that a sign of peace as well? It's used in WP:KC among other things. Borisblue 05:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Most of Antagonism section moved from article

[edit] Antagonism

 This article does not cite any references or sources. (August 2006)
Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed.

The fact that the symbol resembles a bird's foot in a circle gave rise to alternative interpretations, ranging from plain mockery of "crow's foot" and "The Footprint of the American Chicken" (suggesting that peace activists were cowards) to a number of occult meanings.

Conspiracy theorists believe that the symbol is one symbol among many that has a different meaning to the inscrutable elite than it has to the general public. Some believe it is an ancient symbol designating hatred toward Christians, from Emperor Nero, who crucified the Apostle Peter upside-down, hence it is a symbol of an inverted cross. The Nero's cross has also been recognized as a "mockery" of christianity, as it is thought to represent a broken, upside down cross, within a circle representing "Nero's vision". It is thought that Nero believed that the destruction of Christianity and all Christians would bring peace. It has even been rumored that the proliferation of the sign was on-part due to a Soviet conspiracy to encourage the sign which had a hidden anti-christian design (an objective part of the Soviet goals).

It has also been called a relative of the Nazi swastika – or the rune algiz inverted, said to mean "hidden danger". It resembles the rune calc.

An inverted peace symbol could also be seen as stylized image of the female pubic region.

Comment: Actually, if you google for a phrase like "inverted broken cross" you find plenty of sources confirming most of the text above. First time I remember coming across this interpretation of the peace sign was from a Jack Chick comic about 25 years ago. =Axlq 05:18, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the Cross of St. Peter is a perfectly legitimate traditional Christian symbol, but it has come to be used by some anti-Christians, and some Christians are suspicious of it (or symbols similar to it) when used in a non-Christian context... AnonMoos 11:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] It's not a dove's foot

Monsignor Bruce Kent says he was at the meeting where they approved the logo based on the semaphore for N and D, and I for one believe him. There seems to be some kind of myth, particularly prevalent in America, that this is some kind of pre-Christian peace symbol. It isn't, it's the CND symbol.


NO. BRUCE WAS NOT THERE.

I think that Bruce might have said "I know some of the people at the meeting ...", he certainly was not there as he didn't really get involved in the peace movement until much later, the war in Biafra, I think.

The nuclear disarmament was first adopted by the Direct Action Committee Against Nuclear War, the initiators of the first Aldermaston march, and later was taken up by CND. Michael Randle, chairperson of the Direct Action Committee, recalls that Harry Mister - the business manager of Peace News and of Housmans Bookshop and who died in 2006 - was not convinced by the design, arguing that it would mean anything to ordinary people. To which Hugh Brock replied, "this movement is going to be so big that everyone will know this symbol".


There were close contacts between Brock and US anti-nuclear activists at this time. As Bayard Rustin took part in the first Aldermaston march, I think it is likely that he was one of the people to introduce the symbol to the USA. Howard Clark (talk) 13:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Easter march to Canterbury?!

The 1958 Easter march, planned by the Direct Action Committee Against Nuclear War and supported by the newly-formed Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, was from Trafalgar Square to Aldermaston. There was no march to Canterbury, and I don't know if the idea was ever mooted.

An accurate account of various peace symbols can be found in editorial matter in the 2007 Housmans Peace Diary. Howard Clark (talk) 14:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Housmans Peace Diary 2007

The introductory article in the Housmans Peace Diary 2007 is on Symbols of Peace. It lists the follow symbols: Dove Olive Branch Broken Rifle White Poppy ND symbol or Peace Sign

I'm sure that Housmans would be very pleased for some of this material to be used here (and I say that as a former board member of Housmans). Howard Clark (talk) 14:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] anarchy symbol

it doesnt reseble the anarchy symbol to me and i would like to read the letter the hippie wrote


[edit] 3rd Panzer Division

Apparantly an identical or nearly identical symbol was used as the insignia for Germany's 3rd Panzer Division circa 1943. Can somebody confirm that for me? -Toptomcat 00:53, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

No it's not similar unless three equally spaced vertical lines with an inverted v attached to the first one resembles a circle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.216.30 (talk) 14:46, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Local controversy over peace symbol wreath

Would it be appropriate to add a mention of this to the article? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yahoo news links are gone after a few months. Here is the New York Times abstract:

Oops, added the citation before reading the talk page. Feel free to remove or edit as you like (not that you need my permission). My two cents... I think it should be at least cited as the "controversy" is already alluded to in the text of the article but it's a little light on references. New 21:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Antagonism and white doves

Does anyone know why the Antagonism section is called that? Wouldn't "Spurious Histories of the Peace Sign" be better?

Also, why have white doves become the peace symbol? Does white symbolize peace? --DBlomgren 02:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It does to Christians or in a Christian context. It's a dove appearing at the end of the Hebrew version of the Flood Myth. In the earlier Gilgamesh version it's of course a raven. Both ravens and doves have meant a variety of things historically. Anyway a dove is evidently well known as a peace symbol. Hakluyt bean (talk) 17:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Added lighted peace symbol

I added a picture of a lighted peace symbol upon the suggestion of a friend. The picture is one that I took of myself modeling the lighted peace symbol that I designed and constructed. I have licenced it under the GPL license. --Allyn 01:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

That looks wicked. Unfortunatly I don't think that it is notable enough to warrent inclusion in the article.--JK the unwise 14:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Looking up wicked on Wikipedia, it can mean extreme, unusual, or even excellent. It is used in the computer industry to describe excellent graphics or network performance. Based on this, I feel that you really meant that it should stay in the article. If it is 'wicked', then it is excellant. I am tempted to revert and put it back in, but please let me wait and see what response I get. Please clarify your intention. --Allyn 16:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
By 'wicked' I did indeed mean very good. However, being a cool thing is not enough to justify inclution in an encycolpedia article. See Wikipedia:Notability "The inclusion of topics on Wikipedia is a reflection of whether those topics have been included in reliable published works. Other authors, scholars, or journalists have decided whether to give attention to a topic, and in their expertise have researched and checked the information about it. Thus, the primary notability criterion is a way to determine whether "the world" has judged a topic to be notable. This is unrelated to whether a Wikipedia editor personally finds the subject remarkable or worthy."--JK the unwise 14:02, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I thought that I would include an example of a use for a peace symbol as someone had suggested to me verbally. You're right that it's not notable mainly because it a one of a kind. I have since moved it to the Commons and put it in some of the galleries there. --Allyn 04:07, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I am removing the photo from this talk page as the discussion has reached a conlusion and its presence here violates Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest#Self-promotion. Allyn is the designer of the clothes in the photo and requests commissions via his personal web site. RP Bravo 07:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted vandalism

I reverted an apparent vandalism where someone had replaced the entire article with just 'peace sign'. --Allyn 02:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Semaphores?

Does somebody have a source for the peace symbol being based on two semaphore signs? Given that the discussion above states that the original form of it lacked one of the spokes, this seems an unlikely source for the symbol, espescially given the pre-existing runic traditions. Sounds very much like a "backronym". -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 07:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

No, it is definitely based on the semaphore signs. I have added the necessary citation to the main article.
--NSH001 16:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Neil is completely wrong and has taken it upon himself to promote this here. He is notorious for vandalizing this page with the semaphore lie. If you are interesting in the actual truth below then read the following: During the early protest in the 1950’s in England the word Nuclear was not used, Atomic was the only word used then, there is absolutely no connection to any semaphore signal of ND; the peach symbol was actually circle place around the sign that was seen throughout the English country side, the one for strategic bomber fields. The Intercontinental Ballistic Missile did not yet exist; the delivery system for Atomic weapons then was the strategic bomber. The US placed several bases throughout the UK and Europe for this purpose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.206.187.61 (talk) 20:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Please provide some sources so this is at least as well-documented as the already-cited source (http://www.cnduk.org/pages/binfo/logo.html) and incorporate this into the article indicating this additional theory (without deleting the already-cited material). Don't just delete well-cited material in favor of unsourced material that reflects your belief. TJRC (talk) 20:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't help laughing at our anonymous friend's weird rant above. As it happens, it wasn't me who originally put the semaphore explanation in the article, but I did supply the reference. As for "atomic" vs "nuclear", CND (founded in 1958), stands for "Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament".
--NSH001 (talk) 22:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The "ND semaphore" explanation was widely promulgated in printed books during the 1970's, so it's hardly a simple "lie" (whether or not it turns out to be true). AnonMoos (talk) 21:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, the CND article implies that the organization was founded under that name (using the word "Nuclear") in 1958... AnonMoos (talk) 21:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it's true that 'nuclear' was not as common a usage in the '50s as compared to 'atomic'. However, that does not imply that the word 'nuclear' did not exist or that it was NEVER used in connection with atomic/nuclear weapons. Also, while the ICBM did not exist as a DEPLOYED weapons system, the Soviets had launched Sputnik in 57; it was realized that such a rocket could deliver a warhead. So ICBMs existed, they just weren't deployed or practical yet. NCD was founded in 58. (That's after 57 for those who prefer rhetoric over facts - I'm talking about you, MR Anonymous) Origins aside, I have always found it ironic that the "peace" symbol looks like a jet. I've always imagined that it is a B-52 laden with an H-bomb or two. KABOOM! TAKE THAT, YOU DIRTY HIPPIES! HAHA! Yeah, just kidding. But the irony is unmistakeable. Highonhendrix (talk) 10:09, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I have added information which resolves the Semaphore debate. It is referenced in detail on the CND page and is a first hand account from Hugh Brock (Peace News). I think it should end all debate in this regard. Aimulti (talk) 07:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

If a lower-case "n" is drawn as an inverted "v" and put between "C" and "D", they can be moved together to make the symbol. 84.71.146.64 (talk) 20:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pace rainbow flag

Should be an illustration or photo of this... AnonMoos 11:09, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


Solid colours version - Epson291 04:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Solid colours version - Epson291 04:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alternate Shalom-Salam image

AnonMoos 11:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Presumably, looking at this graphic, the English word 'Peace' is also a peace sign, as indeed is I guess potentially any graphic representation of the word peace in any language. Does it not take the interpretation of 'symbol' to the point of redundancy? Hakluyt bean (talk) 17:16, 20 March 2008 (UTC)