User talk:Pazan.ua

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[edit] Welcome

Hello, Pazan.ua, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions.

If you are interested in Ukraine-related themes, you may want to check out the Ukraine Portal, particularly the Portal:Ukraine/New article announcements and Portal:Ukraine/Ukraine-related Wikipedia notice board. The New article announcements board is probably the most important and the most attended one. Please don't forget to announce there the new articles you create. Adding both boards to your watchlist is probably a good idea.

Finally, in case you are interested, similar boards exist at Russia portal as many editors contribute to topics related to both countries. The respective boards there are: Portal:Russia/New article announcements and Portal:Russia/Russia-related Wikipedia notice board. Of course there are also many other portals at Wikipedia or you may just get right into editing.

Again, welcome! —dima/talk/ 04:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] STOP IT

Don't delete my postings on the talk page, I am one person you can't bully. I mean it, stop deleting what I post!! If you delete my postings on the talk page again, I will report you for vandalism. That's not a threat, it's a promise--Woogie10w 01:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Deleting or removing text from any Talk page without archiving it, except in your userspace. Talk pages or any discussion pages are part of the historical record in Wikipedia. Every time the pages are cleaned up, don't forget to store the removed text in its corresponding archive ([[/Archive]]) page. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Woogie10w (talk • contribs) 01:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Wait, so how do you archive a talk page? Because, seriously, I don't understand any of those instructions.

[edit] TEXT FROM A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE

This is from:
Responsibility for the Holocaust


Soviet territories In the German-occupied Soviet territories, local Nazi collaborationist units represented over 80% of the available German forces providing a total of nearly 450,000 personnel organised in so-called Schutzmannschaften formations. Practically all of these units participated in the round-ups and mass-shootings. The overwhelming majority were recruited in the western Ukraine and the Baltic region, areas recently occupied by the Soviets for which the Jews were typically scapegoated, which exacerbated pre-Nazi antisemitic attitudes. Thus, for instance, Ukrainian nationalists killed 4,000 Lviv Jews in July 1941, and an additional 2,000 in late July 1941 during the so-called Petliura Days pogrom. Nazi Einsatzgruppen, together with Ukrainian auxiliary units, killed 33,000 Kievan Jews in Babi Yar in September 1941. Ukrainian auxiliaries participated in a number of killings of Jews, among them in Romanian concentration camps in Bogdanovka and in Latvia. Proof? Never have local collborationists actually participated in the shootings.--Woogie10w 01:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] THE USA ALSO

Hey, Americans don't like to be reminded about Slavery, the massacres of the Indians and the brutal conquest of the Phillipines in 1898-1902. That is part of our History that can't be forgotten. Some Ukrainians sided with Hitler, most were loyal to the USSR and fought against Germany. As a kid I knew some of these Ukrainians in New York. The CIA took them to the US after the war. Ukrainian collaboration was a reality that you can't deny.--Woogie10w 01:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC) Umm, actually, very few did collaborate. Most were either forced into the Red Army, not loyal to the USSR, that's right like you said, or joined the ranks of UPA. But except very few, we're talking about less than a thousand people actually collaborated. And yes, also collaborated, and masacred their fellow Ukrainians. So, I still find no reason for you to put a link to collaboration, when we're talking about Ukrainian victims.

In the territory that was Poland before the war is where there was a lot of collaboration, also that was the UPA stronghold. The UPA existed only in the Polish occupied regions, the UPA led the struggle against the Polish occupation before the war. In the western Ukraine most people hated the Polish and sided with the Germans, they were glad Poland was defeated and wanted the USSR to go down also. These people dreamed that the Germans would give them freedom. That was only a dream, they Germans planned to enslave and exploit all Ukrainians. In the eastern Ukraine most people were loyal to the USSR. --Woogie10w 02:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Here is a Wikipedia article on a UPA commander, who served with the Nazi Police. Roman Shukhevych--Woogie10w 02:24, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Here is another Wikipedia article on the Ukrainian patriotYevhen Konovalets.--Woogie10w 02:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Here is a Wikipedia article on Andriy Melnyk, a Ukrainian patriot, who colloborated with the Germans during part of WW2.--Woogie10w 02:39, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Another Wikipedia article on a Ukrainian leader who collaborated with the NazisPetro Voinovsky--Woogie10w 02:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Another Wikipedia article on a Ukrainian leader who collaborated with the NazisVolodymyr Kubiyovych,he helped form the 14th Ukrainian SS Division --Woogie10w 02:48, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
There were about 15,000 men in the Nazi 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Galicia (1st Ukrainian)--Woogie10w 02:52, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Remember, they only collaborated, well, you can't say the collaborated, they just had a common goal, destroy the Bolsheviks. And there was that collaboration there, simply beacuse Ukrainians wanted to drive the Bolsheviks out of their own land, and have an independent country. But since the Germans were against that, they were fighting against them too. Oh, and don't forget, that the whole way, even though there might have been small collaborations, on the terms of fighting against Russians, UPA/OUN was fighting against Germany too.

[edit] Wikipedia Backs Me Up -- there was Ukrainian-Nazi collaboration during the war

So you see Wikipedia backs me up, there was Ukrainian-Nazi collaboration during the war. Case closed.--Woogie10w 02:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC) Don't forget that that article isn't even finished yet, and you can't possibly use Wikipedia as a source.

[edit] Second Philippine Republic

Americans are never told about the Second Philippine Republic that collaborated with Japan. This is something the American historians ignore. One only hears about the great General MacArthur and horrible Japanese atrocities. So you see the Americans had people who collaborated too--Woogie10w 03:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

José P. Laurel collaborated with Japan, after the war MacArthur jailed him. Later he became a Philippine hero. The US had it's collaborators too.--Woogie10w 03:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't mean it was the same as this case.

[edit] Ukrainian Sources on War Dead

Tomorrow I will give you data from Soviet era Ukrainian sources on war dead. I must get to sleep.--Woogie10w 03:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC) lol, alright. however, sources from the 21st century would be a little better.
That Holocaust page needs to include a section on losses in the former Soviet Union, the Ukraine, Belarus and Russia. In the 1946-91 borders the former USSR lost 16 million civilians in the war, only 2.5 million were Jews. Readers in the US need to have understanding of how much the Soviet people suffered in that war. Wait, don't get mad, because I said " Soviet People" We have to admit that there was a Soviet Union between 1922 and 1991, and the Ukraine was part of this nation. In WW 2 there was only one Soviet Army, and Ukrainians in that Army fought for the Soviet Union. Most Americans could not tell the difference between Russian and Ukrainian when it is spoken.--Woogie10w 03:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)No they didn't!! Actually there was an army called UPA, which fought for an independent UKraine, it was formed in the 1940's, and continued to fight until 1961. By the way, what's your point for Ukrainian/Russian lanuguage? What are you trying to prove? Ukrainian and Russian are not the same, despite all the russification efforts.

My point is that most Americans regard Russians and Ukrainians as Hunkies. They can't tell any difference. However, I do know there is a difference--Woogie10w 17:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
The UPA put up a brave fight against the communists in the west Ukraine from 1945-53. 160,000 Ukrainians were killed and 600,000 deported to forced labour colonies. In the 1959 Soviet census there was an addition of 400,000 Russian speakers. However, the Russians and Polish were defeated in the end, the Ukraine is a free country today. In my opinion Bandara was a hero, despite what some people say.--Woogie10w 16:28, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. You know, there was a presentation in Kiev, toronto, to list a few of the cities, this October, or september, and they said a very interesting fact that UPA's last raid was in 1961, contradictory to most sources, which say it was active until 1953. So yeah, I guess, just a fact.

[edit] Greenpoint Brooklyn

I live in Greenpoint Brooklyn. In the link you see Nr 2 A " Russian Orthodox Church" In fact it is Ukrainian. There are plenty of young people who just arrived from the Ukraine that go to that church. Nr 6 is a Lemko church on the street where I live[1]--Woogie10w 03:24, 9 November 2007 (UTC) This is another link to the church near my home, it says "Russian" but the people there are mostly Ukrainians [2]--Woogie10w 12:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC) By the way, that is not the Russian Orthodox Church of Moscow Patriarchate. Even though a lot of Russian churches in America display anti-Ukrainian attitude, a lot of them don't, simply because there is too many Ukrainians going to them. And why would UKrainians go? Because there isn't another orthodox church nearby, or one that doesn't fir their scedules. On the other hand, the Russian Orthodox Church, with headquarters in Moscow, whose Patriarch was a former KGB agent, which were known for their role in genocide of Ukrainians, is still against everything Ukrainian, starting from the recognition of Holodomor, ending at his views on the Greek Catholic Church.

That is so true, the Orthodox church was infiltrated by KGB. Orthodox people, like my sister who is with the Byelorussian Orthodox in Chicago, says that the KGB ran the churches in the communist times--Woogie10w 16:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Read my profile, I visited my grandfathers birthplace in the former East Prussia. The Germans are all gone and the were replaced by Ukrainians from the Southeast of Poland. The younger people speak only Polish. They have a very nice Greek Catholic Church and a museum dedicated to the Ukrainian struggle against the communists. --Woogie10w 16:32, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What happened to your family in WW2?

My father was a US Army soldier in Europe from 1943-45. He was wounded in the war, and received the maximum benifits. He is buried in the US Military cemetary. My mom worked on the A-Bomb project and had a Top Secret clearance.--Woogie10w 17:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC) I see, that's very interesting. On the other hand, my grandfather was dragged into the Red Army, and survived the entire war, while the rest of my family were in one way or another helping the UPA.

[edit] Get this book-(Even though it is in Russian)

I know, it is by a Russian, but I ask you to just look at it.

Потери народонаселения в XX веке. Справочник
Вадим Викторович Эрлихман

ISBN 5-93165-107-1

By the way, I can only read basic Russian. This book is just a handbook of statistics. I need to study and improve my Russian skills--Woogie10w 17:32, 9 November 2007 (UTC) Alright, I'll have a look when there will be time.

[edit] How America changes people

My father was born in the USA and was a Pennslyvania coal miner. He told me the story of his best friend, a Rusyn born in Galacia who returned home during the Polish occupation of the 1930's to visit his birthplace. When he arrived in the town the Polish official who was called a "pan" demanded that he get on his knees when he spoke to him, he told him that he was an American citizen now and he did not get on his knees for anybody. A gang of Polish police beat him up and expelled him back to the US, where he was very happy to be. Americans do not get on their knees for anybody.--Woogie10w 00:43, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Two Kaczynski clowns

Kaczynski the former Polish PM demanded extra EU votes because he claimed that the Polish population would be 66 million today if the war never occured. In other words he is saying the territory of the western Ukraine, western Belarus and Wilno should be given back to Poland. This nasty fool has the mentality of a Hitler. I am glad that he is gone. Here are his words PM Jaroslaw Kaczynski fumed: “We are demanding one thing, that we get back what was taken from us.--Woogie10w 19:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC) As you can tell I have a pro German POV--Woogie10w 19:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC) Yes, yes, I agree with your POV on this

[edit] Schwartzbard

Hello pazan.ua I noticed that you keep adding the fact that Schwartzbard was a twice convicted criminal to the first paragraph of the article. I think it would be better if we don't include that in the first paragraph. If we include that, then other editors will want to include his military service record ect. Lets just keep the first paragraph very short. What do you think? -- Ostap (talk) 16:56, 16 November 2007 (UTC) I guess i aprtially agree with you. However, I think that it should be mentioned somewhere in the article, if maybe not in the first paragraph.

[edit] WE Youth Political organization

This article looks like an advertisement/party platform to me, but the editor/guardian refuses to address my concerns. Could you take a look at it? I don't read Russian (or Ukrainian), but I suspect the articles cited don't really talk about this organization at all (or not meaningfully). --Orange Mike | Talk 15:14, 11 December 2007 (UTC)