User talk:PaxEquilibrium/Archive3

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[edit] Hey man

Happy new year to you too! Yes, I heard about that, it is good news. I think it is rather a shame that all of the rest of the ex-YU states cannot enter at the same time :( - Francis Tyers · 23:54, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I hardly think you can be that much worse than Romania and Bulgaria :) - Francis Tyers · 10:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] wikiproject

As a member of WikiProject Serbia, you should be aware that the project as well as Portal:Serbia is being considered for deletion. If you have the time, please comment on what you feel should be done with the project and the portal. Thank you. // Laughing Man 01:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] COPY/PASTE

HEY PIXIE, HOPE YOU DON'T MIND I USED YOUR GOOD-BYE TO WIKI MESSAGE..AS A BASE FOR MINE. GOOD LUCK AND GOD BLESS YA MY FRIENDJagoda 1 03:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Kubura

Could you please summate this request so that the presiding CheckUser will have a clearer idea as to it's basis? On behalf of Requests for CheckUser, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 21:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nenad Bjelica

Hi HRE, Checking the edit history, I realised you were the first person to add that this player is of Serbian ethnicity. I believe that Bjelica is generally a Serbian surname but you provided no verifiable reference for this particular person's ethnic origin. As it has been removed several times, I would like to defuse any source of revert wars as much as possible. Regards, Asteriontalk 10:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

IF HE WAS SERB MAYBE HIS NAME WOULD BE BELICA ... BJELICA WOULD BE CROAT... CROATS SAY BJELI AND SERBS SAY BELI FOR WHITE ....

i THINK HE'S CROATIAN. Jagoda 1 03:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

E MOJ PIXIE,

STO JE PREZIME? 1/4 O COVEKA PO KRVI I MANJE. JEDNO PREZIME NE ZNACI TVOJA NACIJA I ODAKLE SI. SVAK PUT KAD SE NEKO ZENI NOVA KRV DOLAZI U TU FAMILIJU. AKO JE BJELICA SRPSKO PREZIME IPAK SE DANAS NALAZI U HRVATSKOJ I TOLIKO SE MISALO SA HRVATIMA DA SU ONI DANAS VISE HRVATI NEGO SRBI. TAJ NENAD BJELICA IMA JOS 3 DRUGA PREZIMNA U SADASNJOJ FAMILJI...MOZAD SU SVA TRI HRVATSKA. STO JE MAJKA NJEGOVA I STO JE BRE OD OCA MAJKA???

PRIJE NEGO NEKOG ZOVES SRBINA, PRIJE PITAJ KOJA SU DRUGA 3 PREZIMENA BILI U NJEGOVOJ FAMILJI. PO TOME SE MOZE NESTO RECI U VEZI COVEKA I ODAKLE JE POREKLU. NEZNAM PUNO O ISTORIJI NASEG NARAODA ALI MISLIM DA SU DOSTA SE IZMISALI I IMAH JEDNIH I DRUGIH SVUDA A DA NE GOVORIM U BOSNI. BOSNA JE CHORBA I TO GUSTA I VRUCA CORBA.


HRVATI GOVORE BJELI A SRBI BELI, TO TI JE CRVSTI DOKAZ DA JE BJELICA PREZIME POREKLU HRVATSKO I PISE SE NA HRVATSKOM. DA JE SRPSKO ONDA BI SE ZVAO BELICA. TO JE LOGIKA MOJ PIXIE.


IVANOVIC IMA PO SRBIJE PUNO ALI SU SVI HRVATI JEDNOM BILI, JER TO PREZIME JE CISTO HRVATSKO..ISTO TAKO JOVANOVIC PO HRVATSKOJ, TO JE SRPSKO POREKLU...IZMESALO SE TO.

PA JA SAM CRNOGORAC ..NEKI GOVORE DA SMO HRVATI POREKLU..A KO ZNA 100%

BILO BI BOLJE DA SMO SVI YUGOSLAV I DA NE POSTOJU SVE TE MALE NACIJE HAHAA.

ZA MENE PREZIMENA KOJA IMAJU IC NA KRAJU SU SVA SRPSKO-HRVATSKA ALISU SVE SAD MESANI PO DRUGIM NACIJAMA I TESKO JE RECI ODAKLE SU 100% (CRO OR SRB)..SAMO LOGIKA (BJEL - BEL)...SAD OVA PREZIMENA KAO BJELICA SU MOZDA IZ CESKE ILI TAKO NESTO A MOZDA IME JE POSTALO PO NEKOM NIKU. KO ZNA MOJ PIXIE////



Jagoda 1 21:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

PIXIE, NERAZUMEM TEBE PIXIE. STO BRE PRICAS? SVI SRBI KAZU BELO AND HRVATI BJELO/BIJELO. BIO SAM U YUGI DOSTA GODINA DA TO ZNAM 100%. DA IMA NEKIH DALMATINACA KOJI GOVORE BILI I NEKE DRUGE VERZIJE...ALI PRAVA REC JE BJELI PO HRVATSKOM A BELI PO SRPSKOM. HRVATI KORISTE SLOVO J VISE U RECI.

BEOGRAD = WHITE CITY.


NISMA SIGURAN OD ONO DRUGO STO PISES. JELI GOVORIS DA 20% NARODA U JEDNOJ I DRUGOJ DRZAVI SU MESAVINA ALI SE NEPRIZNAJE..PA TO ZNAM..PA U BOKI JE TO ISTINA, VERUJEM DA JE TO I PO DRUGIM MESTIMA PO YUGI.

AJDE BRE SAM ZNAS DA JE SRBIN JOVAN A HRVAT IVAN..PA TO SE UVEK ZNALO.. U MOJOJ CRNOJ GORI IVAN JE POPULARNO JER DOSTA DECE SU POREKLU BILI HRAVTI, ONI KOJI SU SE ZVALI JOVAN SU POREKLU BILI SRBI...PA TO SE ZNA.

ps JA VERUJEM DA JE SVE MESANO TOLIKO DA SE NIJEDAN NAROD BIVESE YUGE ISTICE KAO CIST. YUGA SE MESALA DOSTA ZADNJIH 500 GODINA.

Jagoda 1 02:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok Pixie, vidim to sto govoris. No problem. Nisam profesor tog jezika. Eto samo znam po onom sto sam vidio u zivotu i sto sam cito u knjigama.

Jos jedno. Moze se reci da svi Srbi za manje od 50 godina ce samo pisat i citat latinicu...cirilica je na "way out". Pa moji roditelji i dam danas tesko je citaju, a ja pogotovo jer sam roden u Australiji.

Pa ja sam ti reko 100 puta ja jesam Crno Gorac i govorim Crno Gorski. Mesam malo Dalmatinski ponekad jer u Australji vecina Jugevica jesu iz tog kraja pa iz nam ih dosta i pricam sa njim na naskin. Da sam Srbin haha pa sto nisu Crno Gorci svi Srbi po tvome..haha Nema veze sto sam ..nigde ne pise sto sam..samo pise da sam Slavic a to je otvoreno pitanje o sto sam ja.

Ivan je Hrvatsko a Jovan Srpsko.

Jagoda 1 21:48, 9 January 2007 (UTC) PIXIE,.. PA NISAM NIKAD REKO DA SAM HRVAT NEGO DAS SU MOJI MOZDA POREKLU HRVATI JER SA OBE STRANE FAMILJE MI SMO KATOLICI I IZ 2 MESTA U BOKI U KOJIMA SU BILI VECINA TAKO ZVANI HRVATI...I TO UVEK SMO KATOLICI BILI PO VERI.PA NEKI TO GOVORE STALNO U BOKI OD NAMA I U NEKE KNJIGE BAS PISE OD NASEM PREZIMENU KAO DA PREPADA HRVATSKOJ, JEDNE I DRUGE STRANE. NIJE CUDNO JER BOKA JE BILA JEDNOM DIO HRVATSKE PA RAZUMEM TO MISLJENJE O NAMA.

DANAS JA SAM CRNO GORSKI AUSTRALAC, MOJI SU IZ CRNE GORE POREKLU. JA NEMA BAS NEKE VEZE SA HRVATSKOM ALI ME INTERESIRA NJIHOV NAROD. I RAZUM ZASTO IMAJU NEKU MRZNJU ZA SRBE. ETO TAKO VISE SIMPATISEM HRVATE, BLIZI SU MENI ..PA I ZNAM IH DOSTA U AUSTRALIJI KAO DOBRI LJUDI.

NEPRIZNAJEM IME IVAN KAO SRPSKO..SAM CES VIDITI AKO JE SRBIN IVAN MOGUCE JE DA IMA NEKOG HRVATA U FAMILJI POREKLU..VECINA ...NE SVI..SIGURNO NEKI I VOLE TO IME.. U VEZI JOVAN MOZDA SI UPRAVU.

ZIVIO MOJ PIXIE

Jagoda 1 02:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] LPD

Thanks for the information on LPD. Cheers :) iruka 17:00, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Montewiki

OK,we can try making something out of that site, but my idea was a request for official version of Wiki. The only problem is, as I stated before, lack of people willing to put in some time and effort into that project. We have enough Montenegrins here to win a vote, but most of them are inactive or hardly active at all. Hopefully,it is going to work out somehow, even though things don't look that great at the moment. Thanks for the support, by the way... Cheers. Sideshow Bob 20:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Earth

I am from planet Earth.:)--Bendeguz 22:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HELP

Pixie, Na Australian Wikipedians..nemam pojma ko me stavio tamo, ja nisam . Ali Pise jagoda user i talk niko drugi nema talk na toj listi


jeli mozes popravit ti gresku za mene ili izbrisi me iz tog. treba da samo pise moje ime a ne usertalk page isto

a ko nije tesko brisi jedno i drugo


Hvala Jagoda 1 02:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


PIXIE,

PRVO.. PA NEZNAM ZASTO PISE MOJE IME DVA PUTA...DRUGI IMAJU SAMO JEDAN PUT. NEKO JE NAPRAVIO GRESKU. POGLEDAJ PA MI JAVI ..TI ZNAS VISE O TOME..JA NEMAM POJMA KAO SE TO FIXI. TREBA IZBRISAT USER TALK JAGODA1.

DRUGO... U VEZI BOKI. NISAM 100%SUGURAN KAD JE TO BILO ALI SAM CUO DA JE BILA DIJO VENECIJE U ISTO VREME KAD JE DALMACIJA..PO TOME NAROD JE BIO POZNAT KAO VENETIAN CROATS A NE SRBIAN OR MN. U TO VREME KNJIGE PISU O HRAVTIMA U BOKI. PA TOME ZNAM O MOJOJ FAMILJI JER SMO BILI U MORNARICI U BOKI, I PRICA SE O HRVATIMA KOJI SU SLUZILI TU. TE NEKE TRADICIJE I CISTO PISE DA SU BILI HRVATI.

SAD RAZUMEM DA TI JE OVO KRIVO JER SI TI MOZDA CITO NEKU DRUGU VERZIJU. JA SAMO IDEM NA ONO STO LOCAL NAROD KAZE. PRICE I ONO STO PISE U KNJIGAMA. RAZUMEM DA TO IMAS NEKO DRUGO MISLJENJE NA TO. NO PROBLEM.

VREME NEGDE PRIJE WW1..SAD KAD NISAM SIGURAN..ONO VREME PRIJE. NIJE NI SAMO JEDAN PUT..CUO SAM DA JE BOKA SKORO BILA DIO DALMACIJE NAKON WW2 ALI TITO NIJE DAO. MODA JER U TO VREME NIJE BAS BILO HRVATA VECINA KAO PRE WW1.

BAS ME BRIGA OD TOME. BOKA JE SAD CRNOGORSKA ..NICIJA DRUGA ..JEL TAKO? NEKO NA WIKI MI JE REKO DA SU HRVATI ISELILI BOKU 1911 U MASI.


ps MOLIM NAPRAVI MI ONO PRVO PITANJE...TI ZNAS O TOME VISE.

Jagoda 1 21:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

ok Pixie, ima mnogo verzija istorije Boke depending ko je pise. Izgleda da ja i ti citamo nesto totalno drugce. Bokelji su poznati kao Hrvati ali negde sam cito da neko kaze da su to bili Srbi...pa neznam ni ja koga verovati. Nebi reko da su to Ustaske price, mnogo ljudi se osjecaju poreklom Hrvati iz Boke ili se osjecaju samo Bokelji kao nacija. Pa pre smo pricali o ovom..depending on the town..moji su iz Perast/Tivat to je totalno Katolicko i moguce Hrvatsko bilo..druga mesta me ne brigaju. Znam za to i sigurno nisu jedina dva u Boki Kotorskoj. Pa User Panonian je sam to prizno. Mesano je ali se posle 1911 manje i mnaje Hrvate nalaze tu i pogotovo posle 1991. On je pokazo neki graf.

Ej jesi vido sa onu gresku..Please fix if you can.

Jagoda 1 02:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] stop your shit!

Stop writing bullshit on my talk page! Spread your spam and gossip somewhere else. I don’t know in what kind of mental state you are and what kind of drugs you take before opening my talk page and I frankly don’t care what you think or what you do. But I guess you must have the most boring life in this earth, since you don’t have nothing else to do, bur write such garbage every time you open my talk page. Get mature! --just a happy girl :) 10:24, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I said: STOP spreading your gossip and spam on my talk page. And don’t do so, like you don’t understand what I mean! Don’t stick your nose everywhere. If I would have any problem with Panonian or any other user here, I would solve them by my self. I don’t need your help. And you are personally attacking me; your comments are absolutely silly. Write your comments on my talk page, just if they have something to do with the articles of this encyclopedia. This is not a chat room! If you need someone to talk, or argue, there are a plenty of chat rooms in the internet. This is not the first time that you are spreading your gossip on my talk page, without anybody asking you anything. I don’t care about your personal opinion about my persona and I never did. I ignored your provocations until now. And I will ignore from now on any comment coming from your side. You are just someone who is trying to create conflicts between users in this encyclopedia. --just a happy girl :) 18:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Personal attack intervention noticeboard

Sorry, the debate has closed. --Docg 20:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] another sock?

PE, Just wanted you to be aware that another anonymous editor is exhibiting similar behavior (as well as same ISP). This could be a coincidence, but I believe since the articles he disrupts most frequently are sprotected, it is likely he will be moving to other articles. See 89.172.199.6, 89.172.201.73. // Laughing Man 21:09, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Education in Serbia

Pogledaj ovo kad budes imao vremena:Talk:Education in Serbia.


Andrija 23:29, 10 January 2007


[edit] Boka 1

During the Slavic migration in the sixth and seventh centuries, Croats settled along the Adriatic coast from Istia to Albania, regions as far north as the Drava River, as far west as Sulta, and as far east as the Drina. The oldest historical account from those times, written by a priest of Duclea (Pop Dukljanin), mentions Red Croatia, a region which included Boka. Red Croatia united with White (Western) Croatia into a single Croatian state as early as the middle of the tenth century.



By mid-twelfth century, the town of Kotor started to thrive as a maritime trade center, establishing ties with nearby Dubrovnik. The Catholic cathedral of St. Triphon (Sv. Trifun) dates back to 1166 and was built with the help of maritime traders. Many new towns were springing up along the shores of the sound. The town of Kotor continued to grow in size and influence, and it increasingly attracted various tradesmen like goldsmiths, blacksmiths, and tailors, among others. Kotor's ship building industry was also well known.

In 1371 Kotor came under the protection of the Croatian-Hungarian king, Ljudevit the Great. Ljudevit was the most powerful ruler of the Adriatic region at the time, forcing out Venice from the eastern side of the Adriatic region. After his death, Bosnian king Stjepan Tvrtko I. Kotormanic, who was of Croatian ethnicity, attempted to impose his rule on Kotor. He succeeded to gain only parts of the bay including the town of Kotor. However, his rule did not leave a lasting impact in the town or region. The Bosnian rulers are remembered mostly for founding the town of Herceg Novi on the western side of Boka. After Tvrtko's death in 1391, and until 1420, Kotor was, like Dubrovnik, an independent city-state.



The period of Venetian rule over Kotor and Boka started in 1420 and lasted, with a few interruptions, until 1797. It was a period of numerous wars and permanent insecurity on both land and the sea. By the end of the fifteenth century, Turks had conqured the lands of Boka's hinterland, including some lands on the north west side of Boka. For the ensuing 200 years, the sound was thus divided between the Venetians and the Turks. During that time, the population, power, and significance of Kotor decreased dramatically, turning Kotor into one of the most devastated and most pillaged cities in the bay. After the Austro-Venetian war against the Turkish Empire (1715-1718), Venice was able to expand its territories into Dalmatia even further. She took complete control over Boka sound once again, and her rule lasted until the fall of Venice in 1797.


On August 24th, 1798 a Croat from Lika, general Matija Rukavina, marched alongside Austrian troops into Kotor. Rukavina entered Kotor in the name of the Croatian-Hungarian king, convincing the Croats of Boka to accept the Habsburg rule.

In the midst of the Napoleonic wars, after the Austrian defeat at Austerlitz, Austria was forced to turn over Boka to the French. With the fall of Dubrovnik republic in 1808, Boka once again became territorially connected with the rest of Dalmatia.



In their six years of rule, the French introduced an array of innovations. The most important of these probably being democratization and the abolishment of all aristocratic privileges.

In 1807, the Croatian parliament (Sabor) again requested that Dalmatia, of which Boka was now a part of, must be reunited with Croatia and Slavonia. This request would constantly resurface until unification in the latter part of the century.

After the fall of Napoleon in 1813 and while awaiting the final peace settlement, two strong fractions had emerged in Boka. A union with Montenegro was supported by Orthodox villagers living in the hills above the sound who had settled there during Turkish rule. A numerically greater, pro-Austrian faction enjoyed support from predominantly Croatian Cathlic coastal cities. The final decision came at the all-important Vienna Congress of 1814, in which Austria was confirmed as the successor of all the territories of the Venetian and Dubrovnik republics. The Kingdom of Dalmatia was formed, with its capital in Zadar, and Boka became part of the Austrian state. The second Austrian rule was to last for 104 years, until 1918.

In the 1830's, the so called Illyrian Renewal, or the Croatian national revival movement, swept Boka as well. Long after the national homogenization of Boka's minority Serbs, Boka's Croats finally started to unite under their Croatian national identity. Croatian tricolors were displayed on all ships as well as in all of Boka's towns alongside the official Austrian flag.

At the assembly in 1861, it had been decided that all citizens of Boka, Croats and Serbs alike, unconditionally support the unification of Boka and all of Dalmatia with Croatia proper. Representatives of Boka in Dalmatia's Sabor at the time, three Croats and a Serb, and all members of the People's Party, supported unification with Croatia.


Responding to greater-Serbian tendencies, the People's Party gradually shifted its ideological orientation from South-Slavism to Croatianism in the 1870's when it became the majority party in Dalmatia's Sabor. The final break between the Croats and the Serbs came after the occupation of Bosnia-Hercegovina by the Austro-Hungarian empire in 1878. The Croats supported occupation because it reunited Bosnia-Hercegovinian Croats with the rest of the Croatian nation, while the Serbs vehemently opposed it, because it ran counter to greater-Serbian claims to Bosnia.

In the second half of the nineteenth century Boka experienced an economic revival. The number of affluent Croatian families increased quite dramatically. Also maritime trade regained much of its former glory by 1870.

Sharing the fate of the rest of Croatia, Boka became part of the Kingdom of Sebs, Croats, and Slovenes after World War I. Thus started the most difficult period in Boka's history - the period in which the greater-Serbian politicians would attempt, and largely succeed, to assume full control of one of Croatia's most beautiful regions.


POZOR! In 1910, Croatian Catholics made up 69% of the total population of the town of Kotor, 70% in Herceg Novi, and 95% in Tivat. In 1991, Croat share in the total population in the same towns was only 7%, 2%, 23% respectively.

Jagoda 1 22:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Boka 2

An International Symposium "SOUTHEASTERN EUROPE 1918-1995"


Publisher: Croatian Heritage Foundation & Croatian Information Centre For the Publisher: Ante Beljo Expert Counsellor: Dr. sc. Dragutin Pavlicevic Editor: Aleksander Ravlic Graphic Design: Gorana Benic - Hudin Printed by: TARGA Copies Printed: 2000 ISBN 953-6525-05-4

IMPRESSUM

CONTENTS





Prof. dr. Josip Pecaric member of Croatian Academy of Arts and Science; member the General Council of the Croatian Frater organization "Bokeljska mornarica 809" Tekstilno-tehnoloski fakultet, Pierottieva 6 10 000 Zagreb CROATIA

CROATS OF BOKA KOTORSKA FROM 1918 UNTIL TODAY

1. THE CURRENT STATUS OF CROATIANS IN BOKA KOTORSKA From the beginning of the Serbian aggression against Croatia in 1991 until today, the status of Croatians in Boka Kotorska has been characterized by various kinds of pressure. The most respected Croatian families in Tivat have received threatening letters in which the following, among other things, are written:

"If you do not leave on time, the night will swallow your children and family. Hurry to the summons of Mr. Tudjman to Croatia, because there are more Serbian centuries-old homes there than there are of you." (The letter was published by independent Montenegrin media.)

For this reason, Croatians of Boka have been moving to Croatia, while from Tivat alone, there have been over 300 Croatians (7 medical specialists among them) who have moved to Croatia. In effect, what has happened is a continuation, if not a completion, of the ethnic cleansing of Boka Kotorska since the existence of Yugoslavia. The census of 1910 (the last census carried out during the Austro-Hungarian Empire) and the census of 1991 (the last census in Yugoslavia) reveal that ethnic cleansing is truly in effect. The total population almost doubled from 33,400 in 1910 to 61,440 in 1991, while at the same time the number of Croatians has decreased three times (from 13,500 in 1910 to 4,910 in 1991.

However, only one part of the population emigrated. The other half was subjected to constant pressure to change nationality. This is why we have separated "Yugoslavians and others" in the tables presenting the national structure of Boka Kotorska and Montenegro. The reason is obvious: only Croatians in Montenegro had reasons to declare themselves as such in the census of 1991.

According to data of the Catholic Church of Boka, today there are approximately 12,000 Catholics. Thus, we have a paradoxical situation with more Catholic-Yugoslavians in Boka than Croatians.

The demographic picture of Boka Kotorska, however, has changed dramatically since 1991, not only because of the exodus of Croatians, but also because of the great influx of Serbians, namely, the Yugoslav Navy has made Boka its naval base and Serbians from eastern Herzegovina and Croatia have settled there - SERBIANIZATION is in full effect in Boka. It is not surprising that of the 1,000 refugees who departed from Croatia after "Oluja", 200 settled in Tivat. For this purpose, an initiative for a "census of empty houses" was set in motion by the Podgorica "Pobjeda" at the beginning of August so as to "take care of the people of "Krajina" in Montenegro". Thanks to the Montenegrin independent media, as well as the attitude of the municipal organizations of the Social Democratic Party and the Liberal Union, the attempt at the so-called "humane confiscation" of empty Croatian houses was somewhat thwarted but not completely stopped.

GRAF 1

Percentage of Croatian Catholics in the population of towns (1910.) and imunicipalities (1991) of Boka kotorska.

2. DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES IN BOKA FROM 1910 UNTIL 1991. When we say Boka Kotorska, we understand this to be the Boka Kotorska Bay. The coastal belt of Boka Kotorska-Budva-Spic was, however, in the Austro-Hungarian Empire administratively included into one district with its center in Kotor. The censuses carried out convey religious rather than ethnic affiliation. While it is clear that the Catholics are essentially Croatian people, it is difficult to distinguish the Montenegrin and Serbian people among the Orthodox inhabitants. It is not difficult to note certain regularities in the displacement of the population in 1910. The Orthodox majority in the entire district was the result of colonization in higher mountainous regions, as for example, the Boka Kotorska hinterland and the region of Pastrovici, in which the people of the Orthodox faith are practically the only inhabitants. They also make up the majority on the Lustica Peninsula and in the agricultural Grbalj parish. In larger towns, the Orthodox population in 1910 and earlier was only noted in Risan. The remaining town settlements : Kotor, Perast, Tivat, Dobrota, Prcanj, Herceg-Novi and Budva had a Catholic, that is, Croatian majority. Distinct Catholic regions were the Vrmac Peninsula in Boka Kotorska and the southern part of Spic from Sutomor to the border towards Montenegro. (see pict. 1)

We may justifiably calculate that the situation was similar at the time of the creation of the first Yugoslavia and from that moment, the influence of Greater Serbian politics was of crucial significance to the demographic changes in Boka. Graph 1 displays how this was reflected in the population censuses in the second Yugoslavia in the entire number of inhabitants and Graphs 2 and 3 in Montenegro in percentages.

GRAF 2

The national structure of Boka kotorska (1991).


The annexation of Boka to Montenegro did not follow until 1945 when federal units of the new Yugoslavia were established ( during the war the terms used were: Montenegro and Boka Kotorska, that is, Montenegrins and the people of Boka). The census of 1948 was characterized by great pressure on the population to declare themselves Montenegrin. There is, however, a characteristic fact seen in Graph 3 showing that the number of Serbians and Croatians in Montenegro was the same in 1948, while in 1991 there were 9 times more Serbians. Also, Graphs 1 and 3, show how the number of Croatians was reduced with respect to the population as a whole and in part in percentages.

3. GREATER SERBIAN POLITICS AND BOKA KOTORSKA Boka Kotorska was the first of all Croatian lands to be inflicted by Greater-Serbian politics. Objective and subjective reasons exist.

Objective reasons lie in the fact that Boka Kotorska is the most southern of all Croatian lands.

Subjective reasons lie in two great Serbian complexes.

1. The sea is a generally known Serbian complex. From the time of the Nemanjic Dynasty until today, whenever they were in a position to do so, Serbians have executed genocide upon the people who were obstacles to their access to the sea. 2. The Croatian cultural heritage is a Serbian complex which was best manifested in the war when they systematically destroyed all cultural monuments of the Croatian people. The symbol of this both here and in the world is Dubrovnik.

The culturocide, however, which is being carried out against the Croatian people holds one more component which may be seen in the attempt to usurp the cultural heritage of the Croats of Boka Kotorska, namely, it is the Boka Kotorska coastal settlements which were primarily inhabited by Croatians and which were the hub of maritime affairs. For centuries, this promoted strong development of the territory and the inhabitants were the bearers of a culture which attained an enviable level. This culture was particularly important to the Croatian people. Let us emphasize that the oldest Croatian Cathedral dating back to 1166, is St. Tripun’s Cathedral in Kotor or Our Lady of Skrpelja, the magnificent church, the shrine to the Holy Virgin erected on an artificial island across from Perast which was built by the inhabitants of that town. The church houses the life’s work of the greatest Croatian baroque painter who was born in Perast - Tripo Kokolja. Testimony to the greatness of the Croatian people’s heritage may found in official Montenegrin sources, which state that 40% of the republic’s immovable heritage and 66% of the republic’s movable heritage is located in Boka Kotorska. Clearly, one may conclude that today over 50% of Montenegro’s cultural wealth belongs to the Croatian people. More precisely, the Croatian people of Boka are heirs to this wealth.

GRAF 3

Nacional stucture in Montenegro (1991)

After his visit to the Catholic parishes in Boka and Montenegro, Monsignor Ratko Peric, the Bishop of the Mostar-Duvno and Trebinje-Mrkanj dioceses, said: "It takes more courage to be Croatian there than it does to be Catholic". In effect, his comment is indirectly talking about the goal of Greater Serbian politics in respect to the Serbian usurpation of the Croatian cultural heritage of Boka. Serbians need non-Croatian Catholics to ensure the painless seizure of the heritage which is primarily situated in Catholic churches. Eventually, with the completion of ethnic cleansing in Boka and the disappearance of Croatian Catholics, the Kotor Diocese would no longer be a part of the Church for Croatians. Yugoslav Catholics would rapidly become, first, Montenegrin Catholics and then Serbian Catholics. In other words, Montenegro would first swallow Boka and then Serbia would swallow Montenegro. Moreover, while Montenegrins are, for Croatians, those who are taking away their land and their cultural heritage (something which is truly being witnessed by our people), the reality is that Montenegrins are also victims of Greater Serbian politics. Namely, they are doing the dirty work for Serbians in the same way they were drawn into the attack on Dubrovnik with the same scenario. They are not aware that they are working against themselves because by unjustly claiming the so-called Nemanjici Bay, they are giving an added motive to their own Serbianization.

MAP

By taking over Boka, Greater-Serbian politics is working in three basic directions:

1. the elimination of national consciousness of Croatians in Boka; 2. memoricide upon the Croatian people as a whole, that is, erasing Boka and the Croatian people in Boka from the minds of Croatians in Croatia. 3. territorial separation of Boka from Croatia.

The elimination of national consciousness was first carried out by the so-called "Bokism" and then by " Yugoslavianism". In the previous century, Serbians spoke to Croatians in Boka about "togetherness:" We are all "Bokans" and nothing else", they would say. Then they proceeded to divide them into Serbians and Catholics! Thus, Croatians were denied their Croatianism, whereas Serbianism was not touched because their faith is Serbian! At that time they were successful, especially in the creation of the first and second Yugoslavias when some Croatians found salvation by declaring themselves to be "Bokan" (and later Yugoslav) rather than Serb or Montenegrin! But in both circumstances, the Serbians achieved what they had wanted: for the Croatians to cease to exist because, severed from their people, they are condemned to become that which the Serbs want them to become, condemned to give the Serbs the great cultural heritage of the Croatian people of Boka as dowry.

There are many examples that display how successfully memoricide was carried out upon the Croatian people as a whole with respect to Boka, the Croatian people and the great Croatian cultural heritage in Boka. The effect of this memoricide can still be felt in Croatia although I believe that many more people today know about Boka and its meaning to the Croatian people than they did several years ago. Three to four years ago, I was appalled by the fact that many Croatian politicians and cultural workers did not know that Boka Kotorska was the "Bay of Croatian Saints". Namely, of the six Croatian Saints and canons, three are from Boka (St. Leopold Bogdan Mandic, sainted Ozana of Kotor and sainted Gracija of Mula). The only Croatian Pope, Siksto V, is also from Boka. I was also appalled to discover that many Croatians of Boka did not know this either.

From the very beginning, the territorial separation of Boka from Croatia has been a major goal. This can be seen in the Vidovdan Constitution of 1921 in which the division of states into administrative regions was proposed. The division would be carried out by a parliamentary decision at the government’s suggestion. If this is not accomplished, a shortened legal procedure is predicted and should this not succeed the King would pass a statute in which the district of Boka Kotorska would fall under the Zeta administrative region. One can see how such crucial decisions were determined in advance and it is immediately clear that neither the first nor the second circumstance occurred, rather the third, which ensured the separation of Boka Kotorska from her mother country. In all future changes, including the Banovina (Ban’s dominion) of Croatia, Boka remained outside Croatian borders. When the HSS (Croatian Peasant Party) gained the most votes in seven Boka municipalities at the elections of 1939, Croatians in Boka expected that the Boka Kotorska Bay would enter the Banovina. Since the Cvetkovic-Macek Agreement did not define the borders, representatives of Boka Croats went to the HSS headquarters in Zagreb asking for the border to be on Trojica, behind Kotor. A correction of the border, however, was never accomplished due to the war and the arrangement of the first Yugoslavia.

Boka did not enter into the Independent State of Croatia in 1941. It was after the fall of Italy in 1943 when Boka formally entered into this structure, but it was, however, the German army which entered Boka rather than Croatian armed forces. In Boka, people believe that the reason for this was that Don Ivo Stijepcevic, a well-known Croatian historian, requested this. It is ironic that Don Ivo was imprisoned after the war by those whom he had aided by this act.

On the other hand, the "Boka " syndrome was in effect turning those Croatians in Boka into partisans. During the war, the term Montenegro and Boka Kotorska was used, whereas at the second meeting of "ZAVNOCG i Boka" (Territorial Anti-Fascist Council of the National Liberation for Montenegro and Boka), which took place on June 14, 1944, the name was changed to "CASNO" (Montenegrin Anti-Fascist Assembly for National Liberation). By the end of the year the term "and Boka" was erased from the title of the republic as well, although many organizations kept to the original name even several years after the war. This was clearly a simple consequence of the fact that Boka had been wrenched from its mother country. This enabled great pressure to be placed upon the Croatians of Boka. In this way, many well-respected Croatians in Boka were killed, among them priests: Don Ivo Brajnovic, Don Gracija Sablic and Don Djuro Perusina.

There were 17 Croatian culture clubs in Boka in the first Yugoslavia and the Croatians joined their mother country in joy (the thousandth anniversary of King Tomislav was celebrated magnificently in Boka and a stone plaque was placed on the Cathedral in Kotor commemorating the event) and in sorrow (a Boka navy unit took part in Stjepan Radic’s funeral). In the second Yugoslavia, however, all of this was destroyed in the two years following the war. In 1948, Croatians were faced with great pressure to declare themselves Montenegrin. Those among them who were in the Communist Party received party orders to do so. Not even three years had passed since the erasing of the term "and Boka". In those three years, many well-respected Croatians were imprisoned, with or without trial, and loss of employment was a standard occurrence.

This was usually accompanied by the label "clericalist". Pressure continued during the entire existence of the second Yugoslavia resulting in the demographic changes we have mentioned.

4. CROATIA AND BOKA KOTORSKA The confiscation of Croatian houses, threatening letters and a case of arson in Donja Lastva by Tivat (the owner of the house in question was a Croatian Dejan Brkan), have made the situation in Tivat very explosive. This was reported to the Minister of Internal Affairs by a delegation from the Liberal Union of Montenegro. It is clear why the Montenegrin opposition did this and why they are supporting Croatians in Boka: by fighting for the Croatians, they are fighting for themselves and for the independence of Montenegro and its European orientation. To the Croatians of Boka, its Serbianization means losing their homeland, but to the Montenegrins it is a battle TO BE OR NOT TO BE . They are fighting for the survival of their nation.

Unfortunately, the Montenegrin opposition is not powerful enough to significantly alter the situation. This is why the question of what the Croatian nation can do is extremely important.

Clearly, it is Croatia’s duty, according to its Constitution, to report on the current situation in Tivat and the entire Boka region to all relevant factors to the world. However, that is not enough.

In its political program, Croatia must begin with the fact that Boka Kotorska is one of Croatia’s most important interests. That this is truly so we may conclude from the following three facts:

1. The overwhelming Croatian cultural heritage in Boka. In fact, by destroying our heritage, the Serbs have raised the level of awareness of Croats with respect to the significance of their cultural heritage. 2. Boka is the Bay of Croatian Saints. Is it necessary, particularly now after the visit of the Holy Father to Zagreb, to emphasize what Catholicism and the Bay of Croatian Saints means to the Croatian people and the Croatian nation. 3. According to the Croatian Constitution, Croatia is obliged to take care of all Croatians outside Croatia, therefore the Croatians of Boka Kotorska.

Thus, because Boka Kotorska is one of Croatia’s significant interests, Croatia cannot accept that it be a part of a state such as today’s SR Yugoslavia - a state in which Croatians and other peoples are subjected to culturocide and genocide.

Naturally, the Croatian army will not cross Croatian borders (unless Croatia is attacked), regardless of the fact that demographic movements in Knin and Boka have been very similar in this century and that with the completion of ethnic cleansing in Boka, they would be entirely the same.

All these reasons show how it is of vital interest to Croatia that Montenegro become an independent state, as are the other republics of the former Yugoslavia. We are hopeful that Croatia will succeed in convincing its allies of this fact and that they will become more active in aiding the Montenegrin opposition in its battle for freedom and the independence of Montenegro. Montenegro, separated from Serbia, would surely turn towards Europe, and in this way Boka Kotorska, this Bay of Croatian Saints, would, together with Montenegro, be where it belongs - in Europe. European Montenegro is a guarantee for everything Croatian in Boka Kotorska and it is the Croatian part of Montenegro which is exactly the ticket to affiliation to the Western world. Today’s situation, i.e. Serbian Montenegro, represents the feeding of the Greater Serbian appetite and ensures the continuation of Greater Serbian politics, which alone is a constant threat to vital Croatian interests. Jagoda 1 22:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Boka 3

Pixie, Pa dobro. Evo nesto sto sam cito na net. Vidim da se spominje Croatia i Boka u istom textu. Ima mnogo ovakivih artikla na net. Kako sam ti reko pre..depends who writes the stuff. Milsim da tvoj take je vise Serbian pov a moj vise sit on the fence type. Sve jedno ..Boka je sad dio Crne Gore a ne Srbije ni Hrvatske. Jagoda 1 22:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


Hvala za ono drugo


[edit] Boka 4

Pixie, Moji roditelji su takozvani Bokelji. Na Wikipedia pise da taj narod prepada Srbima. Od kad to? Prvi put cujem ovo. Kad vec pricas o gluposti i laz na net, pogledaj ovaj Wikipedia article na Bokelji pa reci meni ako nije ovo cisto Srb Pov. Ovo je neko editiro u laz i neku propagandu da Boka postane dio Srbije i Srpskog naroda. Otvoreno se govori da Bokelji imaju svoju tradiciju a ne Srpsku ni Hrvatsku. Ali ako se ikome pripada onda Bokelji su blizi Hrvatima ne samo po krvi nego po tradiciji jer Boka je naseljana sa Hrvatima najprije. Tako Hrvatska istorija kaze Red/White Croatia.

U vezi oprostaj, nema na cemu..nisam te nikad uvredio niti sam ovaj put. Logika ti sama kaze da sam ja upravu. Pa moji roditelji su ziva istina a ne neka Beogradska knjiga.

Budi fair Bokelji nisu bili Srbi. Sigurno da neki Srbi se mozda zovu to ali nisu aktualni Bokelji po tradiciji naseljenika.


Jagoda 1 02:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


Wikipedia Quote: The Bokelj or Bokez (Бокељ, Бокез) people (pl. Бокељи, Bokelji, or Бокези, Bokezi) are the inhabitants of the Boka Kotorska (hence the name) and adjacent regions (near the towns of Kotor, Tivat, Herceg Novi, Risan, Perast). They're Serbs, Montenegrins and others. Most are Eastern Orthodox, while some are Roman Catholics who are claimed to be the autochthonous ancestors of Boka.

The Bokelj designation is regional. While a great part of Orthodox population and even some Catholics (conversion) originate from Montenegro, a part of the Roman Catholic population is ancestral and autochthonous; but they have kept the slava, a typical Serbian tradition.

[edit] POV

Pixie, Quote You: "Let's trim the history: in the beginning of the 7th century, the Bay of Kotor was a part of the Byzantine Empire - but as soon as the Serbs & other Slavs came,"

This info is from a Serbian book. If the book was neutral it would list the other Slavs and perhaps include Croats who argue they came in equal numbers to Boka if not larger. Clear Serb POV.

Jagoda 1 02:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC) Need i go on?????

Jagoda 1 02:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] turci

A ima li veze kada su se mijesali -- 900 ili 1500? Ustvari, odkud ti znas da li su se mijesali ili da nisu? Ljudi ziveci jedni pored drugih, ako ne poduzmu koraka da se ne mijesaju, obicno se mijesaju. Pa nisu valjda svi Jevreji jednake boje koze! A da si vidio americke crnce, polovica kojih je od lividnih majstora sto nisu manje do silovali svoje ropkinje. Ono sto se cuva je jedro drustva, stavljajuci izvesan odpor asimilaciji i cuvajuci stroj. --VKokielov 18:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Ja znam razliku. Zasto se kacas na rijeci? Mi sad govorimo o slavenstvu - pa i da su Albanci ili Crnci, nisu potpuno Slaveni. --VKokielov 01:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Da urade DNA test, 50% srba bi ispalo da imaju turske krvi. Kladio bih se da bi to bio veci postotak od bosnjaka. Bosnjaci izgledaju vise kao slaveni nego srbi. Mozda jer su sacuvali krvnu liniju zahvaljujuci prebacivanju na islam.

[edit] Budva

Pa tehnički gledano, Budva i nije deo Boke. Budva je ranije bila pod istom upravom kao Boka, ali geografski nije deo Boke. PANONIAN (talk) 16:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

O kakvoj promenjenoj mapi Boke pričaš? Što se tiče Bunjevaca, u redu, vidim gde si našao taj naziv, što opet ne znači da taj naziv ima širu primenu u engleskom, a pogotovo nije dobro da u jednom istom članku koristimo oba naziva, i Bunjevac i Bunyev - to će totalno zbuniti čitaoce. PANONIAN (talk) 17:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Hm, pa ja ne znam da li su granice opštine Budva ranije bile drugačije. Moguće je da neko računa Budvu u Boku samo zato što je za vreme Austro-Ugarske bila pod istom upravom kao Boka. PANONIAN (talk) 17:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] re: grandfather

The family of my grandfather was not from Montenegro, for at least as anyone can remember; instead, the family has lived on Pelješac. I've heard my mother say how her father (my grandfather) said he was probably related to one Katarina Kosić or Ozana Kotorka (1493-1565) because of his last name. There was also a reference to some old yearbook or birth registrar that said something about migrating from Krivošije, but I at this point I can't remember exactly what the source was. I could check with her if you really want to know.

If I recall correctly, this refers to an insinuation by User:Igor, during one of the earliest Wikipedia discussions about the nationality of the Bokelji. I didn't really look back at that discussion much (because this was just one in a long line of little flamewars incited by that character); if you think that anything should be changed about that, please let me know. --Joy [shallot] 21:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] reply

Sorry for taking so long to reply, but Happy Holidays to you too Pax :) semper fi — Moe 21:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] EU & others

Thank you. A happy new year to you, and I hope you'll get in the EU, soon! ;-) bogdan 22:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Mesta

Pixie, My mother is from Tivat. My father is from Perast. Both born just prior to 1945 there. I got most of my info about the people of Boka from my grand-dad...he would go on on and on about Boka and the people there. Both sides of the family are catholic and had some priests/dons in the family over the years. It's not 100% Known when we arrived to Boka. With first wave or 500 years ago. some evidence for both. In those towns Croats were majority when my parents were there. Maritime books of Boka mention us as Venetian - Croatian - even Perastinian too No mention of us being Serbian in origin


Jagoda 1 21:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Pixie, pa reko sam ti I said just prior... ok ti bas treba ..dad 1942 mum 1944. They came Australia 1965.


Why would you say i was so lucky? In what way? Maybe you mean life is better here...

)



OK PIXIE,

ZDRAVO..Jagoda 1 21:30, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] wHAT THE?

I don't know why you think Montenegro was fascist/nazi after WW2. I don't think you ever visited the place when it was part of Yugoslavia. You could have stayed and made some sort of living there.

Tell me about yourself Pixie. You're Albanian in origin right?? Jagoda 1 21:39, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


Pixie, don't get your point. You're trying to say Orthodox people had it tough under nazi rule, guess what so did the catholics, anyone who opposed them. Never really looked at occupation of Monetnegro during ww2, you must mean we were under the Nazis, tell ya the truth iam not sure. I don't like modern history.

Sure, i have told you about me and my family. You should do the same back ok...

My guess is if you have Albanian blood the Kosovo issue must be tearing you apart. Jagoda 1 02:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] status?

Can you please update your userpage to reflect your current status -- other editors might not be aware that you are still active. Thanks :) // Laughing Man 18:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:BOSNA_U_SRCU_SRBIJA_U_KURCU's name

Hi. I'm trying to see if User:BOSNA U SRCU SRBIJA U KURCU's user name violates Wikipedia:Username. I don't speak the language. User:Laughing Man suggested I ask you. Please see User talk:EarthPerson#Re: translation and User:BOSNA U SRCU SRBIJA U KURCU's pages for background. Thanks. --EarthPerson 18:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I've got the translation, submited it to WP:RFCN and it's already been blocked. Thanks. --EarthPerson 19:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your retirement notice

I've taken the liberty of removing the retirement notice from your user page, as you appear to have rejoined us. Sandstein 16:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Re:Bocans

Patience, young grasshopper. I don't even know where to start with Bokelji. Quite frankly, I'd rather improve the Croats of Boka Kotorska article first. I'm not quite sure where the Bokelji article is going/where it should go, but it has all sorts of problems. I'll give it a shot, but don't expect anything too quickly. --Thewanderer 22:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The best way to improve Wikipedia is not to read it. When i read that Bokelji are of Serb tradition i fell of my chair.

Jagoda 1 02:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC) PS Pixie zdravo legendo. Vise nemogu da citam nepravdu na ovom sajtu.

Jagoda 1 02:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Voj

Pixie, opet ubacivas neki Serb Pov. Vojvodina ima i Madjara i Hrvata dosta ..ne samo Srba. Pa Monica Seles je Madjarka koja je iz Vojvodine ali na kraju se zvala Yugoslav i Serb posle..


Nemoj bre da pricas neke gluposti da u Vojvodini su samo Srbi. Polako.


Pitanje reci pravo sto si ti? Jagoda 1 21:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Pa ono drugo zna svak. Isto... Ima Taljana 20 miliona u Brazilu, ima 9 miliona Poljaka u Americi... Pa znas da Francuski fudbalski tim rjetko ima pravog Francuza u njemu. U Mundial 98 milsim da je samo bio jedan ili dva, Dugary i Petit...ostali su Zidane Alzirac, Bartez i Pires Spanjolac itd...

Jagoda 1 21:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Sokci i Bunjevci su majority Hrvati. Nezmam zasto na Vojvodina population oni se broje kao neki drugi narod. Zna i glup covek da su to Hrvati. Nisu drugce nego Istrians Dalmatians itd..Hrvati imaju mnogo branches de narod je unique, svoj dialect i tradiciju. Jagoda 1 22:01, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Pa dorbro Pixie, ne razumes me. U Vojvodini ima majority takozvani Srba ali nije 100% sigurno da su to pravi Srbi poreklu po krvi. Moze se reci da ima majority narod u Voj koji se osjecaju ili zovu sebe Srbi ali na kraju mozda nisu Srbi poreklu ni po krvi. Eto samo se tako zovu. Milsim u tom mestu ima i Hrvata i Madjara koje se danas zovu Srbi...to je sigurno. Godinama se vec mesaju tu. Pogledaj mene ja sam Australac, Roditelji su CrnoGorci i mi se svi brojimo kao CrnoGorci. Mi imamo Hrvatske krvi ali to se ne broji u statistiki ni i Australiji ni u Crnoj Gori danas. Ista stvar u Vojvodini danas ima Hrvata i Madjara koji su postali Srbi po statistiki. Razumes me. To je normalno, zenu druge nacije i kad produ 50-100 godina i vise zivota tamo, kog je briga za onu staru nacionalnost. Sad ima nekih koji se jos zovu Hrvati i Madjari posle 50-100 i vise godina, ali to je retko. Sto se zovu ono koji su isli tamo ima 400 godina? Sigurno Srbi.

Pa Srbi su aktivni na Wiki i vise nego drugi iz Bivse Yuge. 30,000 je malo, milsim da je User Panonian itd napravio preko 100,000..treba brojiti hitovi, discussions itd.... Ne govorim protiv Pane, samo kazem kao example (ja i ti ga znamo). sam on kaze da mu je ovo poso, pa sam promisli kolko vremena je on na Wiki. Vidim dosta Srba na Wiki i pogotovo oko articles de se prica o Hrvatima i Hrvatskoj..vidim da Hrvati na drugu ruku nisu tako aktivni na Srpskim articles. Pa normalno vidis da Srbi vise zele da menjaju stvari na Wiki...

Nisam 100% siguran ali milsim da je jednom u Vojvodini bilo vise madjara nego Srba, i znam da su dosta Hrvata tamo isli. Tako sam cuo pricu, verzija haha. Mozda ti znas vise.

Jagoda 1 02:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Hostname

responder to talk page post

I wouldn't say I'm adding it to a lot of IP addresses ... nowadays I add it primarily to those anon-IPs who I've warned about vandalism where the hostname resolution is potentially informative. In the past I went through a period where I was interested in where anon-IPs were coming from and I added to a significant number of anon-IPs who edited articles that I watched. Do you see a problem with how I've used the template? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 23:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response for "Milosevic=Great Support?"

Your point is clear, but other parties that ran for elections throughout those years were not much better than Milosevic's. For example Vuk Draskovic's SPO, Seseljs radicals (I think it was SRS), and even the more seemingly moderate parties had democratic ambitions as fas as Serbia was concerned but in regards to Kosovo they seemed to be following a similar ideology. When you take into account the involvement of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts in the academic arena, and how much moral justification the "Memorandum" drafted by its members, gave not only to people like Milosevic but others who followed a similar violent approach, it will be clearer that after he was elected (forcefully or deceivingly) generally he enjoyed wide support for certain aspects of his policies, especially those relating to Kosovo. Also, the Serbian press was almost entirely a tool for propagating the false arguments in that document, as such serving the purpose of the campaigns that its producers were determined to implement. This type of thinking enjoyed wide support, and in that sense Milosevic's party only differed in terms of its methods. He happened to be the one willing to further his policies and he was not even significantly hindered in putting such "scientific" pretext into practice. I honestly do not mean to undermine the sacrifice of a few independent minds that were also active at that time in Serbia, but unfortunately that is what it was. Bardylis 03:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

In terms of the data you provided, and assuming that the figures are accurate, I can agree with you. But regardless of this he did enjoy great support for some of his policies for reasons I tried to explain above. People may not have been willing to elect him, but when he was elected others' political agendas were not in any significant conflict with his for certain things. He did enjoy good support in those terms. I just do not know that it is realistic to judge from the election figures only, because we are talking in terms of what he did and to what extent people supported that. Bardylis 13:08, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Afrika paprika (2)

Hey, I know that exact same feeling. I've protected your userpage, extended his block to two months, protected his talk page & redirected it to his userpage. All good? BTW, what do you mean by "This IP address resolved to National Bank of Croatia as of 21 December 2006, 02:34 (UTC)"? Am I blocking a bank (i.e. a public IP?) or just him? (like his house?) Khoikhoi 09:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Carosovans

Pixie, Who are the Carasovans???

After a time people take up the origin of where they live. Magyars are linked to Vojvodina in many ways still today...bit like Italians with Istra....Serbs with Kosovo...population has fallen in favour of other ethinic groups but the connection with that land will never fade...too much history.


I have heard of Molise Croats, about 50,000 who are of Croat origin living in Italy for the past 500 years or so. I only learnt that few months ago, never knew before. You would think thousands more would have migrated to Itlay and took up Italian last names. I think nearly all Croat last names got Italinaised but in Molise it seems they kept old traditions ...not sure why that place was preserved and is known even today as being Croat.

I don't think the edits matter, what i was trying to say was Serbs tend to get more involved in edits about Balkans, far more than Croats do. Who cares???


All of the former Yugoslavia is mixed...i strongly believe that most Bosniaks are in fact majority Croats who converted to Muslims when Turks came to Balkans..a smaller number are Serbs ..and and even smaller number unknown but yes could well be the so called other Slavs called Bosniaks. Bosnians have a country now and it would be silly to divide the people as being Croat or Serb in origin, they feel Bosnian Bosniak and good luck to them. Nothing wrong with that and I agree that is their nationality now. Ancient history ois ancient history. Sure many Serbs in eg. Dalmatia are today Croats and Croats in Vojvodina became Serb...it happens over time.

Some say Croats are Serbs are the same people, same tribe ..logic would tell you that they were close as they share the same settlement pattern into Europe, same time, both from Persia etc.........I read somewhere that some Iranian study was done on this and proven but was burnt by Yugo govt as they wanted people to think they were all Slavs and not Persian in origin. The link between Croats and Serbs is a touchy subject, very unpopular with some people who continue to argue that their is no link...I think their is a link.


Jagoda 1 21:49, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


Pixie, A name like Mulsimovic, Hadzibegovic etc...show me a clear Turk influnce on a Slav name. It clearly shows a name was converted from a Croat/Serb name eg Begic/Begovic to part Turkish. I don't know 100% but it's logical to think when Croats and Serbs took up the Muslim faith, way of life...they took up the new names too, they were influneced by the Turks who occupied them in Bosnia. Some Bosnian people say today that wasn't the case and they were always muslim, always Bosniak and have no link with Croats or Serbs etc... I beg to differ, that might be the case for a small number but most of them would have been converted from Croats and Serbs into Bosniak muslims.


In my view the Slavs had no religion ..we took up religion in 7th Century. By chance if Serbs and Croats both took up the same religion, bet you wouldn't have this hatred today..in the end it's only religion that devides the two, rest are minor things.

Enough about Vojvodina...

Jagoda 1 02:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedian Bots

Nope, sorry. Khoikhoi 05:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paganinas

So, Pax. Did you check my sources about the ethnic origin of Narentines? Of course: not. You're to busy fighting your little private war on the Wiki. Have a nice day.
83.131.49.21 11:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Do not worry, I am searching it with another user. You're making it hard however, as you're not fulfilling your own part of the "bargain" and obeying Wikipedia's rules. But don't worry, obviously unlike you - word is a lot more important to me. --PaxEquilibrium 14:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, so I don't have the honour too? Thanx. Can you remind me of the word I gave and break? And what Wikipedia's rules do I break, please (just do not begin with this Afrika Paprika thing again)?
89.172.14.160 17:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry - that was an unintentional personal attack - but you indeed have broken the very limits of "trollishness" and even the Free Wikipedia has its own limitations. I'm sorry, but I will have to do it again - as it has been proven a hundred times before that you're indeed a sock of Afrika paprika. Deceit, deceit and deceit (aside almost every other type of disruption: edit warring, vandalism, personal insults, sock-puppeteering and other trolling). --PaxEquilibrium 20:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Pax. I'm so glad that you finaly got rid of that nasty paprika-troll. Now, I hope, you will have more time to look into my sources about the ethnic origin of Narentines. You don't quite need to write a dissertation, you know. Cheers.
89.172.12.25 19:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice try (ya know; when I said: "Keep trying, you might even fool someone some day", I wasn't really serious). --PaxEquilibrium 18:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I was ironic too, cause we both know that you don't care about the historical facts. But as long as you and I know the truth, it feels good seeing you pushing the idea even you don't believe in. So pathetic. See you around.
PS Oh, so much about "keeping your promise".
89.172.11.239 09:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good call

to redirect Bokelji.--Hadžija 16:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

thanks. :) --PaxEquilibrium 22:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Montenegrin Wikipedia 2

I have started up a second proposal on the Montenegrin Wikipedia, I think it should be time to restart it. If you want to vote, the link is: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Montenegrin_2

Thanks again. --Crna Gora 06:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hello Pax

I'd just like to bring this to your attention - Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Hahahihihoho. I'm having a lot of trouble with a sock (User:Alkalada) of User:Hahahihihoho. I'm telling you this because, since you're a better editor than I am, maybe you'll get a response from admins, or you might be able to deal with him yourself. I'd appreciate any help. —KingIvan 11:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yeah...

Thanks, honestly I did not know that. Jagoda -> for some reason gives me a feminine connotation. Hopefully i did not offend him. Anyways, how did you know that? Pozdrav, Vseferović 00:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue XI - January 2007

The January 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

This is an automated delivery by grafikbot 21:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Burno reagovanje?

"Zaista pre-burno reagujes u nekim slucajevima (kada razgovaras s Kuburom i Marinkom)"

  • Ne sećam se uopšte o čemu sam pričao sa Kuburom, ali očigledno je da me Marinko zajebava, pa kako treba da reagujem? Koji mi kurac priča o Karadžiću i Mladiću kad ja nemam nikakve veze sa njima? Ja članke o Karadžiću i Mladiću niti sam čitao, niti me zanimaju, niti imam nameru da bilo šta u njima menjam, a to što on mene povezuje sa Karadžićem i Mladićem samo zato što sam Srbin smatram velikom uvredom. I o čemu ja onda sa njim mogu razgovarati? PANONIAN (talk) 21:28, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serb Politics Info

Hello, I saw your posts on Marinko's talk page, and I was wondering if what you posted is considered 'common knowledge' or if you could direct me to some sources which would contain such information, such as books (hopefully English sources, but if not, then in Serbian), which you consider least biased/subjective and most informative/neutral with regard to Serbian politics of the 90s. Thanks for your time, Stop The Lies 01:14, 25 January 2007 (UTC)Stop_The_Lies

Thank you very much :) Stop The Lies 22:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)Stop_The_Lies
I know you probably don't have time, but just in case you do, could you point out any book distributers which would have this book available for online/mail order? Because I'm having a real hard time finding anything online. Stop The Lies 22:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)Stop_The_Lies

[edit] RE: Sock Puppet

Ah.. that'll be User:Nikola Smolenski then. I'm afraid I wrote a mildly insulting reply to his post on Talk:Kosovo. It's damned difficult to remain level-headed all the time, I guess. Any idea who I'm supposed to be a sock puppet of? Davu.leon 18:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Please feel free to investigate if you'd like: I'm back in Ireland for a little while, so my IP will have changed, (if I understand it right). Other than that all my posts have been made from Pristina, where I was researching a documentary. I may have made a post from Tirana, but I think it was signed in as davu.leon. I'm pretty sure I haven't posted without signing in ever, and I try to always sign my posts. I think my first post was 14:30, 29 August 2006, on Talk:Kosovo War, but I'm not entirely sure on that one. My posts are recognisable by frequent over-wordiness and an ocassionally supercillious tone, and I generally post with a slight pro-Albanian bias. (Seems slight to me anyway, probably not to some.) Anyway, if you need any other information, (other than my home address, which I don't really want to post on Wikipedia,) please ask and I'll happily supply it. Hope you're keeping well in the New Year, and good to see you haven't totally dissappeared from Wikipedia, my friend :) Davu.leon 19:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Believe me when I say I know the history of the UCK far better than most people you will ever come across. (As I don't think you're likely to be talking to them yourself.) And I would not class them as a terrorist group. Seccesionist guerillas who employed violence against the mechanisms of the state, yes, with some members who were no more than criminals, yes. But not terrorists. I would compare them to the original IRA, who, in the war of independence, used guerilla tactics against the Emglish, as opposed to the modern, provisional IRA, who are terrorists. This is an opinion I have come to after a lot of research and thought, but I know it's not universally shared. I understand how your own personal refusal of violence conflicts with the UCK's mehods of attaining freedom, so I'm not going to argue with you because I think it's just one area where we'll have to agree to disagree. Tomato, tomato and all that. :) Davu.leon 08:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response for "Milosevic=Great Support?2"

What you explain about Milosevic, which by the way it is absolutely true, does not diminish the obvoiusness of Serbia's continuity of ethnic cleansing policies in Kosovo mainly prior to Second World War and during 90's. Simply put, what Milosevic did was nothing new, when you consider the previous colonisation policies of others like him before the first and second world war. The entire political attitude of Serbia revolves around the same ideology when it comes to Kosovo. It is not realistic to put the whole weight on one person, when in fact as it pertains to Kosovo (because the original context of this conversation was not about the political career of Milosevic) various Serbian party leaders differ little in their perspective. I guess the question is not whether Milosevic had enough support to be elected, but the fact that he had enough support to implement some operations or whatever you want to call them (that were planned before he came to power) on the issue of Kosovo's ethnic Albanians. This is not conspiracy, it is documented history. Bardylis 20:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Double Redirects

Someone has moved Differences between standard Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian to a different article name. I wouldn't really have a problem with a move as long as it's moved to a more "correct" title, but it seems that a double redirect has been created and I don't know how to fix it. I was wondering if you or anyone you know could fix it. Thanks. —KingIvan 15:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I have fixed your little problem. --Crna Gora 19:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Crnogorski Jezik

Vidio sam tvoju poruku na stranici Kseferovića, pa sam samo htio da ti pokažem da POSTOJI osoba na Wikipediji koja govori Crnogorski kao maternji jezik :). Trenutno pokušavam da aktiviram jednu grupu entuzijasta koja je radila na test projektu odvojeno od nas. Sa povećanim brojem eventualnih saradnika povećavaju se šanse da nam odobre prijedlog. Ti si, na moju žalost, odlučio da budeš neutralan. Ipak, i dalje se nadam da ćeš bar malo pomoći ako uspijemo da dobijemo zvaničnu Crnogorsku Wikipediju.Pozdrav. Sideshow Bob 18:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re.Crna Gora

Hi. I unprotected CrnaGora's talk page now, as his anger might have decreased. By the way, it sounds kinda strange that both of you claim to have left Wikipedia when you're still actively editing it. ;-) Regards, Húsönd 15:37, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RE: Serb Montenegro

Fair enough, I don't have a huge familiarity with the Serbian Radical Party, or with Balkan politics in general (which I'm aware is a very complicated topic). It seems to me that the big question is whether the concept of "Serb Montenegro" is an actual part of the party's programme, or just a personal idea of the politician (Tomislav Nikolić) who the article credits with its invention. If it's not part of the party's manifesto/programme, then the argument for deletion is much stronger. Walton monarchist89 19:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC) (By the way, how come your userpage describes you as inactive, but you're still contributing? Might be a good idea to change the userpage, as it confused me at first.) Walton monarchist89 19:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Sockpuppets

I have mentioned all and I mean all of my sockpuppets on my user page. --Crna Gora 00:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

What other accounts are yout talking about? May I take a guess at which one you are talking about, Olaf Eriksson. I did meet him once in Montenegro at the Faculty of Philosophy at Nikšić while taking a tour. I was talking to him and invited him to join wikipedia. Oddly enough, he knew a good amount of English. While I was talking to him over the phone, I was telling him about how unfair Wikipedia was to me, so, I guess that's what makes it seem like Olaf is me, but he is not. He decided to leave because of his studies, they were piling up, and so you know. Just wanted to clear that up. Have any other questions for me, just ask. Bye. --Crna Gora 21:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
To tell you the truth, I can't sometimes tell whether a user is a sockpuppet. Some I actatually managed to figure out in a second, for example: Bormalagurski (sock: C-c-c-c), Jamal Curtis, I think also a sockpuppet of Bormalagurski, the Afrika Paprika case, the guy just kept coming back, now that was annoying, for you mostly. But, who did you mean then if it wasn't Olaf? --Crna Gora 23:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Jagoda 1 and Evergreen Montenegro1 are obviously socks, yes, but they are definetely not my socks. Can I point this out: Jagoda 1 seemed to talk in Serbian (ekavian) rather than Croatian, Montenegrin or at least Ijekavian and he calls himself a Montenegrin and especially in Australia. Since there are more Croats than Serbs in Australia, don't you think he would write in ijekavian or at least in Croatian. Odd, wouldn't you say. --Crna Gora 23:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ok...

He added himself to the list. I want you to understand this.

If he is a sockpuppet then he does not deserve to be on the Project or Wikipedia at all. Please do not hold me accountable for any wrong doings that WikiProject BiH members commit. I just recently noticed the uproar against him. (Via long conversations...) Thanks, Vseferović 22:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ugh!

Prestani da me napadas. Ja bih rekao, "iritiras", kad bih dijelio ovdasnji osjecaj za humor. Ne maram da mi se pojavljas na stranici i stavljas bezvezna pitanja kad nemam pojma o cemu ti to nastavljas. Koju sam korisnicu stranu redio? I jebiga, sto spada u vandalizam?

Ili si opet odlucio da me metas kao najprvi i najbolji metak?

--VKokielov 00:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


Majku mu. Eto ti pun spisak, radi s njim sto god hoces:

User: contributions for VKokielov

--VKokielov 00:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Tebe zanima zasto sam uklonio link "Save Srpska" na hrvatskoj wikipedii s Borisove stranice? Mogao si to reci direktno; i, kad bi to rekao, ja bih ti odgovorio da on toga zasluzuje. Vise puta smo rekli sto on kvari odnose izmedu Srba i Hrvata svojim provokacijama. Ja sam uklonio jednu od tih provokacija, pogotovu sada kad nije vec s nama ili gotovo nije. --VKokielov 19:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Debate with Pannonian

That regime was elected by the majority of the people. Milosevic was never elected by the majority of the people.

Do you mean majority as in the majority of the electorate (includingtose that exercised their right not to vote), or the majority of those that voted?

You may even compare this to the rest of the "big dudes" (Milo Djukanovic, Franjo Tudjman, Alija Izetbegovic, Janez Drnovsek,...) who indeed got the majority of the votes of the people at times. :)

Yeah but this lot didn't get bombed by NATO. Take out the common thread that was Milosevic & a conflict most likely would have been averted. Milosevic bit more than he could chew.

Excuse my cynicism, but the anti-war movement had little support until NATO started bombing. iruka 08:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC) Quite the contrary. The NATO bombing affirmed Milosevic's position, and the "anti-war movement" as you call it weakened very much. It caused a bizarre "coalition government" of all 3 major political parties that had nothing in common (of which one was even democratic) to unite under the flag of Milosevic. NATO (British) even recorded that their bombings did nothing but place Slobodan Milosevic in power.

Not my most constructive remark, as it was a tangental debate to the core issue of the article. I think your analysis is incompleted - you are right about the bombing strengthening Milosevic for the duration of the bombing i.e. the short term. But in the medium to long term it appears to be correlated to his downfall. He was out of office after about a year & in the Hague within 2? Contrast this to the four years Milosevic was in power after the events of 1995. There were also mass demonstrations once the bombing stopped [1]. iruka 07:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, thanx for the link to the election results - certainly made for interesting reading. iruka 07:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
1. Not sure how that would work, surely you would need 50% of those that voted for the final round of Presidential elections?
I think it's the same acorss most of the world. I have to confess, I find such a system encourages apathy & do not favor such a system. I prefer what we have in Australia - compulsory voting. At least the result you get a reflective of all of societies opinion. I also don't understand why one needs multiple rounds at a presidential election. In Australia, we have Preferential voting which translates into a two-party preferred ballot. That is, when you vote in your electorate (we have an electoral system, but the same voting system could apply to the presidential elections of Europe), you preference the candidates from 1 (1st choice) through to however many candidates there are (usually 5-7). That way, if your 1st choice does not get enough primary votes, then your vote goes to your second choice - after this process, if 2nd choice is not in top 2 for votes, then your vote goes to 3rd choice & process continues, until there are two candidates only, with your vote still being counted. In the context of a presidential election, you would only have one round & thus saving the public money spent on a second round. iruka 01:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
2. I wouldn't class an arms embargo during a war or conditions placed on membership of international institutions as sanctions, nor put them in the same category as tomahawk missiles. Sending diplomats in place of state leaders to Tudjman's funeral is certainly a rebuff, but again, in terms of degree, not the same as a bombing campaign.
3. What you say could equally be valid. It's difficult to attribute causality in either analysis. I'm just looking at the correlations and inferring some causality from that.
w.r.r Crvena Hrvatska, I see it analogous to having separate articles for a broader geo-political entities & it's sub-parts e.g. separate article on the USA & California for example. The example you cited concerns diaparate communities living in the same area, a different thing altogether.
Thanks for the map, certainly is interesting and contrasting to the current maps of GS incorporating RS & parts of Croatia. Do know anything about a secret deal between Stojanovic? & Pavelic? post WW2. Is that map reflective of that deal? iruka 00:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Maybe it was Stojadinovic? I can't remember the exact name, but I think he was the Chetnik leader/representative after Mihailovic, and negotiated future boundaries of both states with Pavelic. This happened in the 1950's or 1960's? I remember reading about it in a thesis on the states role in promulgating nationalism & the creation of insurgent groups. iruka 01:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Might not have been chetnik - some sort of political leader - Stojadinovic certainly sounds familiar in this regard.
Seeing that both Pavelic & Stojadinovic were both in Argentina, it might have been them. I can't find where I read it, but I do recall reading that a Serb & Croat representative negotiated a possible solution to the territorial aspect of the Croat-Serb national question. This was post WW2 & in a country outside of the then Jugoslavija. Other than this, I don't have any more informatin - sorry. iruka 08:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:MILHIST Coordinator Elections

The Military history WikiProject coordinator selection process is starting. We are looking to elect seven coordinators to serve for the next six months; if you are interested in running, please sign up here by February 11!

Delivered by grafikbot 11:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Odgovor

Pitaj one koji me ogovaraju. Ne znam šta tačno pričaju o meni (ako pričaju) niti se previše uzbuđujem oko toga. --Pockey 18:08, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit]  ?

Sad postaje zanimljivo.

Napisi mi na vkokielov at gmail dot com ako neces javno odgovarati.

Ko je rekao da sam rasista? Ja gotovo ni ne diram politiku na ovoj Wikipedii. Ako je neko to rekao, morao je da bude neko iz starih mojih prijatelja. Jel moze da se vrte ovdje? --VKokielov 03:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Ako je to bio Boris, znaj da je on ljut na mene, jer nekako misli da sam ga izdao. Ali znaj isto i da se Boris vrlo lose ponio glede Svetlane prije neku godinu dana. Njegovo ponasanje i na engleskoj, i na hrvatskoj wiki smo vec dotukli do smrti na srpskoj wiki, s zakljuckom da se trebamo cuvati od njega. Jesi li vidio onaj mali edit koji je Milos u svoje vrijeme uklonio?

Obrati paznju, ako ces, da nisam dirnuo taj "Save Srpska" link nigdje osim na hrvatskoj. I to s dobrih razloga. --VKokielov 03:31, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Sto se tice tog posta...ne znam kako je sta, ali meni se cini da sam to napisao kad je dragi suradnik optuzio Joya da je srpski nacionalista. --VKokielov 03:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Ako mi i dalje nastavljamo razgovarati mimo jedan druga, onda nikad necemo sporazumjeti. Ono sto kazes znaci da je Milos rasista, da je Roberta rasista, itd itp. Ne vjerujem u to. Milos je promjenio njegovo stranicu jer mu je bilo pogrdno i neprijatno sto boris, kao admin na srpskoj wiki, sere po hrvatskoj. Jer Milos neguje odnose s hrvatskom wiki. A ja sam uklonio Save Srpska, jer nije bilo Borisa da to vrati, i bolje je da nema izgleda ko da su Hrvati podrzali covjeka koji je njima protivan. Jer "save Srpska" je primjeta srpskog nacionalizma, a srpski nacionalizam je neprijatan Hrvatima.
Jel jasnije? --VKokielov 15:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response to Last Election Results, etc.

The Kosovo question should be drawn upon not the "hypothesis" but the fact that Albanians suffered. I do not think that it is even morally right to surpass common sense and seek help in numbers. That is where you will find the naughtiness of the statistics indeed, because it is not fun comparing the number of dead people to support an argument. But when one is forced to surpass common sense by weird statements from another planet that you hear, one has no other alternative.

Let's put things into perspective and be fair so that we do not have to compare the number of dead people:

1. Kosovo Albanians who were the weaker party of the conflict, were under oppression from the Serbian regime. The oppression included the following:

1.1. If you do not collaborate with the current regime's program to assimilate you and gradually take the power and status away from you say good bye to your job. True story: it happened all around me including my family. Of course on the other hand there were also "honest" Albanians (as they were called by Serbs) who kept their jobs regardlessly and bent to oppressor's demands.

1.2. If you do not learn more Serbian history and remove all Albanian history from schools, say good bye to your school.

1.3. If you say good bye to your job, do not use the german mark for your transactions; use the screwed up dinar instead and accept the screwed up government. Private business thrived with use of german marks instead.

1.4. If you say good bye to your school and you go to a parallel school in somebody's house, beware of the police in the streets, especially if you are a teacher. Your home is also not such a safe place in the case of the latter. You can expect some psychological and physical torture.

1.5. A regular civilian? You are OK but not if you are the wrong nationality - Albanian that is - and the police happens to stop you. You can expect some interrogation without any reasonable pretext, and possible psychological or physical torture.

All this was done systematically to include the whole population, except the Serbian minority in Kosovo and others who collaborated. If you were Albanian you were generally treated as inferior by Serbs, not to mention the denigrating term "Shiptari" used by Serbs to refer to Albanians.

This was the long-term slower suffering of generations, including mine.

The applied methods were fueled by the "Memorandum" of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts to systematically achieve the goal it advocated as early as 80's.

2. Serbian forces enter villages in Kosovo and start attacking houses and razing them to the ground. Serbia has all the military means and power, Kosovo has only the armed Albanian population with minimal means to defend. Serbian forces start applying the systematic ethnic cleansing (Serb. etnicko ciscenje) of the Albanian population. This included the following:

2.1. Burn the villages, massacre as many as possible, decrease the number of Albanians.

2.2. Expel as many as possible to the neighbouring regions, mainly Albania.

And the following that did not go according to plan:

2.3. Close the border not to allow them to return when the operation is completed. Get a record of the remaining minority population. Make them Serbian citizens and assimilate them over time until they are no longer a threat. Colonize the region with inhabitants from Serbia.

The applied operations were prepared plans for over decades, and they had been applied systematically in the past.

This was the short-term tragic suffering.

3. When we talk about the suffering of the Serbs firstly, we should understand that it was the result of what happened to Albanians on a systematic scale and secondly, that during this conflict there was never a systematic plan for ethnic cleansing of Serbs by Albanians for two simple reasons:

3.1. There existed no plan endorsed by Kosovo's parallel Albanian government (LDK) to do so, especially seeing that the major concern was freedom from oppression. Needless to say no such a goal as changing the demographic composition of the Serbian population systematically was ever close to mind for the suppressed parallel Albanian government.

3.2. Kosovo's parallel government had no military means to even pursue any such goals even if they had existed. To be more precise Kosovar Albanians had no army period. Basically, the KLA were the aspiring army of a future Kosovo.



The current smaller number of Serbs in Kosovo was small before the conflict too. So both figures are close enough, if they are to serve a common argument anyway. But I do not think that is the point. Again, numbers, numbers, numbers... we are surpassing common sense here again. Kosovo Albanians simply had the determination and the natural precondition to disassociate from Serbia. Serbia did not know how to deal with this from the beginning until the end, and lost the case. This started by adopting a domination policy that worked in favor of enduring Albanians until the issue was internationalized and ended by use of force that again with much unfortunate sacrifice on the Albanian side worked in favor of Albanians who resisted the Serbian forces with minimal military means and gained the needed sympathy and support. I think this is the main point, if we want to argue over numbers just for the heck of it.

When you mention the shielding of Serbian people from extinction and this being used as a pretext to bring Kosovo under control by stripping it of its autonomy, you should understand that very often statistics of any existing atrocities against Kosovo Serbs were deliberately blown out of proportions to serve a purpose. Think of the case "Martinoviq", mentioned in the "Memorandum" drafted by the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences. This case was used over and over to stir the whole matter, to a point that a meeting had to be called by the Serbian government to discuss the issue. What was the reason? To force the idea into people's minds that Albanians are a danger and to accelerate some action against them. Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts had already embarked in a campaign to prove this case, and as such they were not strangers to manipulation of figures and false claims to achieve their goal as defined in the "Memorandum".

Another thing: about the Greater Albanian issue you mention... I am not sure how this was practically perceived in the past. Perhaps during the conflict in Kosovo such ambitions were more dominant in the Albanian population, because of all the sentiments and everything but nowadays the face of politics has changed. It is no longer the same song. Albania is more concerned about its economy and Kosovo is concerned about independence first and ultimately its economy. I think both sides would be primarily concerned more with practical reasons when it comes to the idea of a possible unification. On one hand how would this affect Albania's integrity and economy and on the other hand, how would this affect Kosovo's integrity and economy. I am not sure that patriotism is preceding pragmatism in today's politics. It's more like an internationalized homogeny of the whole region.

I do not understand the fear of the people you have met. This is entirely subjective anyway, but Kosovo poses no risk to Serbia. And Serbs probably know well that as long as Kosovo is independent Albanians do not even want to hear about Serbia. Of course both regions would have to cooperate economically to survive anyway.

I do not understand your argument about Montenegrins. Why would you punish Montenegro for something that was done by Serbia? Frankly, I do not think that punishment is really relevant in this subject anyway. The ones who should be punished are criminals.

In case you misunderstood my argument about how Serbs were directly involved only serves me to counteract the arguments that tend to shift the cause of the whole problem on one person only - Milosevic. And I counteract it that way because it is simply inaccurate to claim something like that. Blaming someone does no give me any pleasure to be honest with you, but it is only truthful to say that there is more to it than just Milosevic, and to explain how.

It is not that Serbia has to be punished by making Kosovo independent, but that Albanians have to be rewarded with freedom for their long-term endurance of oppression and struggle and wisdom I must say by doing so. We saw what would happen when you leave it to Serbia to decide. It had its turn. It didn't work. So what is next? Go back to the way it was? Do you think they even tried to build trust among Albanians? Do you think Albanians feel comfortable being part of Serbia? No more than Kosovar Serbs feel comfortable being part of Albania. That is why Kosovo should be an independent region under international supervision. Neither Albania nor Serbia - Kosovo.

No, Kosovo does not pose a risk in the way you explain. It is formally part of Serbia, but it is not governed by it, and currently it is as if Kosovo is not part of Serbia anyway. How does the lack of control of Serbia over Kosovo pose a risk to Serbia? The only concern can be the Serbian minority in Kosovo, and that is the only risk for which there should be preventive measures. But Serbia itself as a region is not at risk from Kosovo, also because it is under UN (soon EU) and under peacekeeping forces. Bardylis 15:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

It is not really a matter of historical sufferings being taken as an argument for independence, but that such analysis helps explain why certain things are possible and others not. What has a positive outcome with perhaps little tension and what has negative consequences with a real possible conflict. So perhaps you can tell me what would happen if Kosovo was absorbed within Serbia by totally disregarding Kosovar Albanians, what would happen if Kosovo united with Albania by totally disregarding Kosovar Serbs, and what would happen if Kosovo simply became an independent region under international supervision. Which one do you think has more negative consequences and as such is less likely to solve the problem? Which one is more likely to happen given the current situation, considering the fact that Albanians have proved to be able to govern independently from Serbia and that self-determination was evident right from the beginning of Serbia's domination policy, when Albanians formed a parallel system. Bardylis 15:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


Could not be friendlier You are actually making what I explain sound like a stereotypic point of view similar to the ones Serbian politicians hold. But actually it is very truthful and pragmatic. Starts from reality and develops from there. I couldn't be more idiot-friendly (I am not saying this with sarcasm to insult you... don't misunderstand).

Kosovo seceding Well, if for argument sake you say Sanxhak or Sumadija is seceding maybe, I would think that is a real problem for Serbia's integrity. But with Kosovo it is a little different, because it has been almost independently governed from Serbia for quite a while now. If the idea of an independent Kosovo sounds outlandish to you, the idea of a Serbia where Kosovo only exists in memory is no less outlandish. You see what I mean? They are both relatively new concepts. Only, one is more likely to happen and the other is less likely to happen, because it already failed. Of course something in the middle is also an option, but definitely something more fair than before.

Something in between "the pre-1989 autonomy was far too much;" ...and Serbia's domination policy began. Ethnic cleansing of Albanians started. NATO intervened. Peacekeeping forces entered. Diplomacy resumed and... "...that's why (the Serbian government) claims the middle is the best solution (as neither extreme points would be re-introduced and balance would be restored)." Really? Like what? No independence but more than autonomy or... the initial autonomy that was far too much or... less than autonomy?

Freedom I personally experienced or tasted freedom for the first time since the conflict started when KFOR entered my city and I could walk to my friend's place without the fear of getting killed. So you see... Albanians, such as myself, got addicted to that feeling. So, yes constitutions and laws are written on paper and their enforcement does translate into freedom for citizens. The current one that Serbia has? I do not know man. I don't think it is good for Albanians.

Serbia's main problem Serbia's main problem is Serbia itself, only Serbs have not yet realized it. If something as likely as Kosovo's independence is Serbia's main problem... wow... I wonder what its REAL problems are. I feel compelled to inform you that probability is not entirely on Serbia's side on this one.

UN screwed up UN screwed up and is losing nothing. Serbia may be losing control of Kosovo. Is it relevant who screwed up? Referring back to the punishment mentality you mentioned, no one can punish you more than you can punish yourself with lack of wisdom. It is general and it applies to everyone.

Determination In the original context I was referring to the LDK government during tensions in Kosovo, managing to operate as a parallel (although illegal) government, despite oppression. That government represented, not to exaggerate, almost all Albanians. That shows you how determined Albanians were. Now it is a a bit different because of all the corruption going on, that many Albanians are not happy with. What can I say. It is too bad that it is happening. I hope things get better when the status is settled and economy improves. Serbia is no stranger to corruption and immature politicians either.

Two extreme options The two extreme options I put there just to demonstrate to you where the middle is as you seemed to be too carried away trying to explain that historical sufferings can not be taken as an argument. Within that context I tried to explain how analysis of historical references can help to explain why certain things are possible and others not. What has a positive outcome with perhaps little tension and what has negative consequences with a real possible conflict. So I took two extreme examples and one that is more likely to demonstrate it. Of course other likely examples are also applicable, some of which you have already mentioned.

National minority National minority? Yeah. As far as I know Albanians are also not a minority but a constituent nation. It works the same way with English, Spaniards, Germans, Poles, Russians, etc. and it just depends where they live I guess. Since Kosovo is only formally part of Serbia and under actual international administration, within this unique unsettled region Serbs do not form majority. Take for example elections in Kosovo: Serbs from Serbia, that would otherwise form the majority if that were the case, do not participate in elections right? So as far as Kosovo is concerned they do not form a majority. Bardylis 02:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

OK?

Tung

p.s. "What does not kill me, makes me stronger." -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols, 1888

So what is the difference between the initial centralized autonomy that was far too much, and "less than independence more than autonomy"? The first was rejected because it seemed too much and the latter is a conscious decision as a result of a compromise. Bardylis 16:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the statistics showing a growth of the Albanian population in Kosovo in the not-too-distant future and the slower pace of natality in Serbia, is what made Serbian politicians in the 70-80's first consider some form of higher status for Kosovo as an option. Another practical political consideration. Bardylis 16:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I was referring to the following: "The initial autonomy wasn't too much. It was too little (probably). It is the latter 1970s-1980s centralized Pristina autonomy that proved to be far too much." I should have said the latter instead of the initial. I made the correction below:

So what is the difference between the latter centralized autonomy that was far too much, and "less than independence more than autonomy"? The first was rejected because it seemed too much and the latter is a conscious decision as a result of a compromise. Bardylis 16:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I am sure you liked the news today. :) Bardylis 23:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

In year 2070 there may be a war between humans and machines and we may be living underground. :) But the good news is the proposal from Ahtisari was a positive start. Let's see what future brings. I am getting a bit tired from this conversation and it is taking me a lotta time. Otherwise, it was a pleasure. Thanks. Bardylis 05:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Internationally-imposed is the key word here, and I agree. Nonetheless, elements like de-centralization, securing Serbian and other non-Albanian communities, preserving religious sites, maintaining the territorial integrity of Kosovo, basically form the core of the document proposed by Ahtisari. Given these elements, which lean more towards Kosovo population's self-determination with reduced influence from Serbia, I do not think that refuting it altogether will be an option. There will have to be a compromise of some sort. But yes, it is true what you say about Balkaners and I am not offended. Balkan itself is a Turkish word meaning honey and blood. The place of sweetness and sorrow... bittersweet reality so to speak. But you come from around there also, don't you?

Honestly, despite all these conversations, soon society world-wide (we are talking global now) will be facing some significant problems that won't spare this restless bittersweet region either. Think environment and other things that still sound like science fiction to some but they are more real than ever before. The Balkan mentality never allowed poeple to see things from the global perspective, while it is the crucial understanding, because global decisions will always affect the small decisions of the small reality in that area. Soon our ancient mentality will be modernized by a global and more prominent problem. Bardylis 17:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Random Smiley Award

For your contributions to Wikipedia and humanity in general, you are hereby granted the coveted Random Smiley Award
originated by Pedia-I
(Explanation and Disclaimer)

--TomasBat (Talk) 13:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] poreklom

Mene ne zanima ko je sta "poreklom". Mene zanima ko sto jeste, jer na Netu nista drugo ne vazi. Ono, Joy je Hrvat po svim priznacima. Stavi "hr-x" na userpageu. Naravno da mozes shvatiti bar toliku apstrakciju, da se ne moze covjek optuziti za pristrasnost svojoj vlastitoj strani! Joy brani interese Hrvata, stoga je Hrvat. Ako zastupa umjerenost, to mu ide na dobro, it's to his credit! Zar ne mozes toga razumijeti kako treba? He steps out as a Croat to restrain the Croat nationalists -- hence he deserves praise, not the scowls that Croats like to throw at him all the time. And that praise is not for restraining Croat nationalists as they are, but for serving the interests of Croats by defending their good name without resorting to trickery and slander. --VKokielov 18:26, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] da?

Pa na Wikipediji ne postoje "strane" kojoj pripadaju pripadnici odredjenih etnickih grupa. :) --PaxEquilibrium 19:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:VKokielov"

Jer si bas tako siguran u to?

Da to bi, ne bi ti imao posla. --VKokielov 20:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit]  :)

"Pa, eto - mozda ti ne vidis zasto - ali ova recenica mi izgleda izuzetno odvratno (da ne kazem ogavno). Joy nikada ne bi trebalo da bude hvaljen tako/zbog toga, vec iskljucivo zbog njegove vrhunske neutralnosti. Joy je majstor, pa tu i nema mjesta za neke bizarne "ekstra pluseve", jer ne postoji ocjena veca od 5-ice (tj. 10). :) --PaxEquilibrium 18:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)" Ne samo da vidim zasto, nego sam napisao te rijeci da vidim kako ces ti odreagirati. Medutim svega srca vjerujem u to. Ti i ljudi koji misle slicno tebi po nekom razlogu probate shvatiti sve to odvojeno od covjeske strasti i osjetljivosti. To je krajnje pogresno, pogotovu sto si ti, kao i sam kazes, stradao u posljednjem ratu. Ta ne mozes ti sve ljude suditi jednako, i -- pazi ovo sad: niko ne voli izdajnika. Imajuci to u glavi -- necemo sada ulaziti u motive Joyevog ponasanja, ali ja iskreno vjerujem da je on posten -- moras priznati da i Joy ima prijatelja, i rodaka, i poznanika, i svi gore navedeni ljudi, ili bar vecina njih, danas se gadaju od onoga sto ti zoves "neutralnim pristupom." Znaci Joy, ukoliko ipak proba biti neutralan, a pri tome da je svjestan svoga okruzenja i svojeg privrzenstva, stavi se u sasvim nezgodan polozaj. I stavljam mu zvjezdu za dalekoglednost i razboritost, kad zna odluciti, kao sto sam opet kazes, rodoljube od nevaljalaca.

Namjere ne bivaju djelomicno zle, djelomicno dobre. Ako vec je namjera, onda je voljna; a kad je voljna, onda se i ne dijeli, ukoliko covjek s kojim imas posla nije blesav sizofrenik. --VKokielov 20:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Dobro, dobro, dosta od mene.  :) --VKokielov 05:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Bog dao da bude. --VKokielov 22:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Dobar si.  ;) --VKokielov 03:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] source on Živković?

Živkovićeva kritika na račun DS... No source? Kumdjole 20:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Pecka.jpg

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[edit] copy

You are mistaken I did not. Would you like a I P Number check? No problem because I'd prefer to be above any doubt so just ask Buffadren 09:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Hiya, Friend, I have no problem with you knowing my identity and my IP number will clearly show it oh too clearly., However there are some people out there that I really don't want to know because they will claim because of my position IP number I am biased , So since this is between you and I i'd prefer to keep your enquiry between us. When you get your answer I trust you will be happy for me to delete the trace of your request.. Hope you are okay with that....just that there are guys here that are a menace I did copy some things like images from his site, thats all. No connection....just when you get it I know you say..hey I'm cool with that...just do me a favour...don't publicise it....its nice to be private here.... B Buffadren 10:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I did, or maybe I don't understand it ? People copy tags and boxes from other people the whole time. His matched some of what I wanted so I just copied and pasted them, It was simple. Is that your question ? Buffadren 11:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

I'm not "falling" for anything... I declined to get involved. By the way, can you link the discussion on WP:AN/I where he was community banned? If that is the case the template on the userpage needs to be changed so it is clear he is banned. Right, now I have to assume he is just indefinitely blocked...--Isotope23 22:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] sockpuppet template

I think the previous template was good enough -- the new one you added seems to be for temporarily blocks with the "welcome to return message", but Afrika has been blocked indefinitely. // Laughing Man 23:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

It also conveniently gives links to suspected/confirmed sock categories we have. If anything, we can subst the template and change "suspected or confirmed" to "confirmed", if that was your intention? I'll update the page for now since I'm not sure if you're around anymore :) // Laughing Man 23:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Afrika paprika

Hi, I don't recall participating in such discussions in order to have the user blocked, I think what happened is it was requested over IRC, and so I reviewed the block and extended it to indefinite. My recommendation to you is to check the noticeboard archives around that time to see if there were any such discussions. —Pilotguy push to talk 02:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I was just getting back to this... I see no evidence of a WP:BAN of the editor in question, just an indefinite block of his account as well as several blocks of his other accounts for doing the same thing he was originally indefinitely blocked for. That is different than a WP:BAN.--Isotope23 13:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] University of Pristina

Pogledaj ovu diskusiju [2] i ukljuci se ako mozes. Andrija.b 19:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brotherhood and Unity

I have never had the "independence banner" although I do support it :-) It doesn't clash with brotherhood and unity at all. After all, Montenegro is a brotherhood and unity country! Momisan 04:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

English people have a saying: "where is a will, there is a way...". Perhaps we will learn our lessons one day.Momisan 05:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DOS - SDP

E, ne sećam se baš ko je tada imao koliko mesta u parlamentu. Probaj to naći na nekom sajtu preko google search. PANONIAN (talk) 10:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Military History elections

The Military history WikiProject coordinator election has begun. We will be selecting seven coordinators to serve for the next six months from a pool of sixteen candidates. Please vote here by February 25!

Delivered by grafikbot 14:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zdravo Pixie

Ostavio sam Wiki jer ima previse nerealnog naroda ..pravu se kao neki watchdog, radu standover tactics, bullying over other users. I ja mogu brisati moj komentar, jer nesvida se meni sto sam napisao. Free to edit. Neznam zasto si mene optuzio kao neka budala...stvarno nerazumem te...mislio sam da si moj friend. Tvoj post nije fair i sad stoji tu bas da ga drugi vidi pa mislu da ono sto si reko.. da krijem, mislit ce da je to neka istina. Ja ne krijem nista..sve sam ti reko...odakle su moji roditelji a ti nikad nisi reko odakle su tvoji...pa ti sam krijes vise nego ja. ja sam otvoren na sve.

Zdravo moj Pixie :( Jagoda 1 22:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Pixie,

BRISEM DA JE UREDNIJE. Pa znam za history itd....proslismo preko toga pre i vise puta....+ kako Panonian kaze "pa ko ima vremena da cita history, ja nemam" tako da se moze lepo uredit User Talk page da barem izgleda bolje. Neke komentare i bolje brisat ako se moze, pre dugo izgleda i manje zanimjlivo za one druge usere koji citaju prvi put..pa ako citaju. Bolje skratit ako se moze. Nemam sto kriti..pa na kraju vecina mojih edita na history su jer sam neko krivo slovo napiso npr.. Cran a trebao sam pisati Crna..pa popravim to = mnogo history edits.

Bio sam u San Diego USA kod nekih koji su iz Perasta po reklu kao moji. Bio sam u San Fran isto i vidio onaj Alkatraz. Gledao sam imali nasih koji su bili u Alkatrazu. Istrazivam nesto otome...mozda ti znas.


U vezi Afrike Paprike, zasto ga mrzite? Nisam ga nikad cito (nesto malo) ali ima svak pravo da pise na Wiki. Ako se tebi to ne svida onda nemoj citati. Nemilsim da covek bas nema pojma odnicemu, govori sto on veruje...bilo to sto je istina ili ne. On veruje to. Treba po malo mu dokazat. Pa ja i ti smo dosta se gurali, pa na kraju sam i ja naucijo nesto od tebe. Ovo blokiranje itd...je samo mrznja....pricajte.

Jeli mene neko prijavio Adminu? Jeli tamo mi govoris da pristanem...

Jagoda 1 02:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok Pixie, C Ya ...Sigurno uvrede nisu Ok Jagoda 1 22:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Pixie, Precrtati neke reci???, evo tek sam sad primjetio to da se moze - nisam nikad ni bas vidio da se moze. Vidio sam pre ali mislio sam da to Admin radi ako se nesto slabo prica itd... OK Zasto precrtat?? Bolje je izbrisat i ponovo 100% corect napisat. Urednije. Drugo nezam sto da ti odgovorim...Archive?? Znam za to ali neznam ga napravit haha Stvarno.

Ja ovaj Wiki koristim ali nisam 100% siguran na sve te options. Pa jam molio User: Panonian da mi stavi CrnoGorsku zastavu na moj user page. Nisam ja computer man haha Ucime se pomalo...

Pa ti Nisi odgovorio na moj Alkatraz pitanje...ajde Pixie ja i ti smo kao dva brata..isti smo haha

God Bless Jagoda 1 02:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


Ok Pixie, I have taken you words on board. I will try to answer one day..right now I don't have the time to be honest. I want to leave Wiki as of today and if i do re visit i will try to do as you said.

God Speed to you Jagoda 1 21:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Pixie, ostavi moje comete vani koje sam briso ok. Molim te ok. Ostavi kako je.

Jagoda 1 22:26, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] another possible sock/obvious troll

PE,

You're pretty good at noticing trends, and I believe that this editor (CroDome) is exhibiting behavior that leads me to believe it might be related to the Afrika paprika case. Can you please investigate, as I feel you have had the most experience dealing with him, and might be able to determine whether it's worth it to pursue a CheckUser?

Thanks, // Laughing Man 01:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the response I just to wanted to give you a heads up, I've posted my thoughts on the discussion page, and I agree with your conclusion of why the account was created, and because of that reason, I thought it might be him :) // Laughing Man 18:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

Yes, long time, no hear :) What kept me from retiring was the vandalism or misinformation to articles I use to look stuff up for. I'm fine, how are you? — Moe 02:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear your frustrated :( The only advice I can give you for retiring (like you want) is to not look at the history of your userpage if he is actively vandalizing it. Responsible users/admins will revert and block the socks whenever they start to show up, so theres no reason for you to stress. I have similar trouble whenever I try to retire or the like, my page was vandalized 7 times within the first 24 hours of me trying to leave. Thats when your most vulnerable and thats when vandals seek to attack you. My advice would to be just to stay away from the history page as much as possible. But if you have to look at the history, don't look at what the vandal said, because it will most likely make you upset (I should know, the weirdest vandalism to my userpage was a vandal saying I masturbated with a gerbil up my anus or something like that.) Just ignore them, they aren't worth stressing over. — Moe 16:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] R.E, People I admire

It's not so much that I "like" them, but each of them has a certain quality that I admire. With Alexander and Julius Caesar, I admire them for their skills at creating huge empires, and I can see how that can be contradictory, as I am opposed to modern imperialism (and no, I can't really explain it myself - I'm strange like that :). I guess maybe my admiration of ancient warlords started because I used to play a lot of Age of Empires. The other folks have good points and bad points, for example, Arafat I admire for his unrelenting passion for helping his people - although, he has done some bad deeds. I usually don't support war, but I'm of the opinion that sometimes violence is necessary to force change, hence my support of Cuban/Argentine/Bolivian revolutionary, Che Guevara (I don't think I mentioned him on my user page). In the whole Palestinian-Israeli conflict, I believe that the Palestinians were treated unjustly in the creation of Israel, and the refugees and their descendants are still being treated unfairly by not being allowed to return home, so you'll usually find me supporting the Palestinians on issues relating to the conflict. On another sort of related topic, now that Chris Cornell has left Audioslave, maybe Rage Against the Machine will get back together for good, and I can bang my head to some new revolutionary beats by them - yes, it's true; I am an angsty teen ;) —KingIvan 04:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Help needed

Hi! For a change, I need your help. :) Could you lend me a hand with putting all Serbian parliamentary parties which have *EITHER* more than one seat in the National Assembly *OR* are affiliated with a European political party into the correct columns in Table of political parties in Europe by pancontinental organisation? —Nightstallion (?) 09:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saradnik/Suradnik

Saradnik used to be much more prevalent, however, recently more and more people are starting to use 'suradnik' or the prefix 'su' in general. I would say that both are accepted in Montenegro, we are not fanatics :-) Momisan 05:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The word is borrowed, in both versions, period. Someone I know, refered to the language used by politicians in the Oz as parliament english. Well, this is parliament Serbian/Croatian. It is not a word common people use often. As such, it was imported to the Montenegrin language by learned people, who depending on where they spent their student years, Zagreb or Belgrade, used one version or the other. That was 19th century. In the 20th century, whatever mass media was prevalent, and in Montenegro it was of course Belgrade, dictated the current fashion. The point is, the common people do not think of this word as theirs, so it can change as the "fashion" changes. Momisan 22:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh, so it is about what I did :-) Because, both versions are currently in use. Sorry, you might not like it, but, it is a fact. There is no right or wrong answer here, both are correct as far as Montenegrins go.Momisan 02:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
You are factually wrong on pretty much every statement you have made. The rest is just plain labelling, typical play-the-man-not-the-ball. I don't see this discussion going anywhere so I would apreciate if you spare me from now on. Thanks, Momisan 02:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I believe using su instead of sa is legitimate in the Montenegrin language. "Vidji vraga su sedam binjisah, su dva maca a su dvije krune." (from Gorski Vijenac). I don't know Jevrem Brkovic personally, however, calling him scum of the earth is hardly NPOV. He is an intelectual, didn't commit or even enticed any war or other crimes. His views might be controversial but that is hardly the excuse for you to use such a language. Momisan 23:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, so you admit su is used in Montenegrin :) Good. But, its "archaic", like the whole Montenegrin language. Lets replace it all with the "modern" one, Serbian of course. Following your logic, Croatian is also archaic, because it also uses su. But, Montenegrin is part of the Serbian language you say, that gives you the right to "purify" it from all those "anomalies" and "archaisms". Boy, if you could only burn all those books from Njegos and Marko Miljanov, and just get rid of those pesky words!! And now, you are turning into a proper language policemen and have the audacity to accuse me, why am I using it. I must have an agenda, conspiracy:) I don't know, it comes naturally to me, from my mother tongue (100% Montenegrin). Teachers didn't do a good job on me I suppose ;) You can find suradnik in Monitor and other newspapers, I am not going to spend my time answering your infantile questions. Language is a living thing, my friend. It is also democratic. Every person has their choice how they want to talk. Our task is to accurately record the facts, and the fact is that suradnik 'is in use. I am not a language fanatic either. I am sure my language proposal was saradnik/suradnik, not just suradnik. I expect you to check this and then come back to me with an apology, if you want to continue the conversation. As for Jevrem, you have your opinion, I have mine, I don't see either likely to change so lets stop talking about that. That is more than enough information for you, please spare me from your ruminations for a while ;-) PS: Who are you working for? :) Regards, Momisan 00:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record, who was the user you consulted and what dictionaries did you consult in the search for the illusive suradnik? Again, for the record, my proposal was to use član as the best translation for user, second best was saradnik/suradnik. Have you managed to verify this as I asked you to? Any ideas who locked the cg-N template page and why? I expect 1/2 page answer, anything else would be an insult to my intelligence :)Momisan 07:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Again, why was the template locked and who locked it? That page would be the proper place for discussing this issue. Momisan 00:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Age of Mythology

Hey, I used to own that game as well. Did you find it very, very easy compared with Age of Empires and Age of Empires II? I thought Age of mythology was somewhat lacking when compared others in the "Age of" series. —KingIvan 06:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please use English

I noticed that you have posted comments on an article or user discussion page in a language other than English. When on the English-language Wikipedia, please always use English, no matter to whom you are addressing your comments. This is because comments should be comprehensible to the community at large. If the use of another language is unavoidable, please provide a translation of the comments. For more details, see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. —Psychonaut 13:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] hERE U GO

OK PIXIE, THANKS FOR THE INSIGHT ON KOSOVO. FOR ME I HAVE LITTLE INTEREST IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD TO TELL YA THE TRUTH 1 I LIVE AND WAS BORN IN AUSTRALIA. 2 MY PARENTS ARE BOTH FROM MONTENEGRO.

TWO SIDES TO EVERY STORY I KNOW ALBANIANS CLAIM KOSOVO AS BEING THEIRS EVEN BEFORE SERBS/SLAVS SETTLED IT. I KNOW KOSOVO IS VERY IMPORTANT TO SERBS IN HISTORY VS THE TURKS ETC...

I THINK BOTHS SIDES NEED TO SWALLOW SOME PRIDE AND LEARN TO LIVE TOGETHER UNDER A SERBIAN FLAG AND A PERHAPS A KOSOVO STATE WITH ALBANIAN POWER. WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER WAR LIKE IN BOSNIA. I THINK THE WORLD HAS HAD ENOUGH OF US BALAKAN PEOPLE FIGHTING OVER LAND. IN THE END TO ME IT'S JUST A NAME OF A COUNRTY...NOBODY IS TAKING AWAY YOUR ANCESTRY/RELIGION ETC...ALBANIANS CAN BE ALABANIAN LIVING IN SERBIA, BUT KOSOVO BEING PART OF ALBANIA AND NOT SERBIA IS ANOTEHR STORY AND IN MY VIEW IS POINTLESS. I LIVE IN AUSTRALIA YET IAM VERY PROUD OF MY MONTENEGRIN HERITAGE, WHY CAN'T THE ALABANIANS DO THE SAME IN SERBIA...INDEPENDENCE ISN'T NEEDED OR IS IT??? I MIGHT BE WRONG.

GOD SPEED TO ALL SIDES

OVER AND OUT FOR ME Jagoda 1 22:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vojvodina parties

Pitaš me za koju partiju bih glasao ili šta? Ja na izbore više ne izlazim a neću još dugo dok se u Srbiji ne pojavi neka normalna politička snaga, a o gotovo svim sadašnjim političarima koji vode ili žele da vode Srbiju mislim da treba da se ubiju i spasu Srbiju. Toliko o politici. :)) PANONIAN (talk) 00:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Pa govorio sam o realnim političkim snagama koje imaju nekog uticaja. Što se tiče pokrajinske vlade, nju čine DS, LSV, SVM i PSS. Inače ne vidim baš da se ova država kreće u dobrom smeru - danas sam u socijalnom čekao sat vremena samo da bih dobio informaciju gde i kako da napravim novu zdravstvenu knjižicu, da ne pominjem da su po tom novom zakonu zamislili da ja uopšte i ne treba da imam zdravstvenu zaštitu - po njima bih trebalo da crknem ako se razbolim. Eto, i za koga onda da glasam? Glasaću za onog ko bude ukinuo ovaj robovlasnički zakon o radu, obezbedio mi posao, obezbedio mi pravo na zdravstvenu zaštitu i poboljšao uslove lečenja u bolnici, a sadašnje političare boli ona stvar da se time bave. Uostalom sama činjenica što su ti političari živi je dokaz da rade za mafiju i da prave zakone koji odgovaraju isključivo mafiji, jer da rade drugačije mafija bi ih odavno ubila. Slika i prilika društva u kojem živimo. E, bolje me ne pitaj ništa o politici, jer ništa lepo ni o kome iz te oblasti ne možeš čuti od mene. :)) PANONIAN (talk) 17:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
PSS je ušao u vojvođansku vladu vrlo jednostavno: pre zadnjih izbora vladu su činile DS, LSV i SVM, ali pošto su te tri partije na zadnjim izborima zajedno osvojile manje od 50% glasova, uključile su u vladu i PSS da bi imale parlamentarnu većinu. Prosta matematika. :)) PANONIAN (talk) 00:04, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Igor Mandić

Sorry, I don't know anything about him (except what a simple Google search provides), but there's a little more information on the Croatian Wikipedia which I linked to.

Anyways, sorry if I don't reply sometimes. I'm sort of a lone wolf on Wikipedia these days. --Thewanderer 03:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No worries mate

Yes, I too admire Tito a lot more than Gotovina. And I can understand how someone who was a victim would probably be upset at first glance of my admiration of both men. But I think if people take the time to talk about my reasons for it (just like you did), then they'll understand me, even if they still don't agree with me. I personally admire your inquisitive nature - it shows that you like to fully understand a person or subject before making a judgment, so please keep it up. Thank you for your time. —KingIvan 06:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

What does this comment mean [3]?
"...Southern Dalmatia Serb"?Kubura 13:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I answered your comment

I answered your comment on my talk page here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bosniak#Attempts_to_discredit_User:Psychonaut

Cheers.Bosniak 01:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A reply

Some of your messages were getting into spam. Kubura 08:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] re :)

I don't think so, or at least I don't remember :) --Joy [shallot] 16:32, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Note

May I ask where did you find that quote? I tried looking for it on Google and the only thing I found was two links pointing to Wikipedia talk pages where it is again you who is posted the very same quote. And yes I would like you to remind you as well that Wikipedia's policy is verifiability. The quote you posted cannot be verified while we have quote from 1911. Encyclopedia Britannica which says: Boscovich's father was a Croat and his mother was Italian.[4] Tar-Elenion 15:56, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Also I forgot to add. The "importance" of Boscovich to Serbian astronimical society is completely irrelevant to all of this. By the same logic we should add that Nikola Tesla was a Croat since he is of "immense importance" to scientific community in Croatia. And unlike Boscovich he at least had some connection with Croatia. Tar-Elenion 15:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Re:Reply

So in other words you can not verify this. Let's go back at the Wikipedia verifiability policiy, shall we? Now as for Nikola Tesla we at least have him saying anything connected to Croatia and he was at least born in what is today Croatia, we can verify that. What is Boscovich's connection with Serbia? We have absolutly zero references by him, we have zero references by neutral sources (I think we should definately agree that contemporary ex-yugoslavian source on similar issues are not "neutral") and we have zero scientific arguments that would support it. Draw your own conclusion. Tar-Elenion 16:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry PaxEquilibrium but you did not verify your claims. Let me put it this way: I can provide you at least a dozen sources stating Nikola Tesla is a Croat, does that means he was a Croat? Now let's take a look at the Serbian source about Boscovich, what is the difference? Tar-Elenion 16:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
You say "his father was connected to Serbia". In what sense exactly? That he traveled through Ottoman Empire territory that was once Serbia? I am sorry but you don't make sense. Tar-Elenion 16:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
He didn't just wrote about Orthodox monastaries but in general of all Christian buildings and places of worship. He made several notes about poor condition of Catholic churches in the area he was travelling. Tar-Elenion 17:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
"Yes... so?" Exactly my point. :) Tar-Elenion 17:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
The last question should have been made by me. Tar-Elenion 18:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Petar II Petrovic-Njegos

You've made your point. I will revert my edit to save you time. --Crna Gora 19:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue XII - February 2007

The February 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

Delivered by grafikbot 16:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ter-Elenion

Tar-Elenion's IP address is most definitely [Special:Contributions/89.172.231.115 89.172.231.115] (see this revert on Slavicca Ecclestone).

This has also attracted much of my attention to connect User:Tar-Elenion and User:Afrika paprika, a very violent troll who's been trolling for a year or so (creating hordes of sockpuppets, like User:Factanista for instance). It is not only that Tar-Elenion shares exactly the same interests like Afrika's armada (or more precisely, with those of Factanista), and I became especially suspicious when I saw the 89.172 AOL. Afrika paprika has never ever stopped trolling since the day he came to Wikipedia on 5 July 2006. For this whole time, he has been creating hordes of sockpuppet and constantly kept blatantly trolling, editing other user's userpages and posting violent personal attacks (aside from the fact that about 90% of his +1,000 edits were revert edit-warring). He then switched to anons after he got tired of socks. He has never given and vouched never ever to do so - and very interestingly, when 2007 came (after alluding that he already made a new account), he vanished into thin air. This is about the same time that Tar-Elenion shows up.

I don't want to share bad faith, and there is a greater possibility that Tar isn't Afrika, but I just thought you should know (P.S. - mostly because of his IP confusion). --PaxEquilibrium 21:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Another Wikipedian wrote a messeage to him and referred to him as afrika [5] this could be a sign that he infact is Afrika Paprika Paulcicero 23:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
You should also look through that users (User:GreaterCroatia) edits and you will notice that he hasnt mady any useful contributions, all his edits are pov-vandalism Paulcicero 23:52, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
If you have questions regarding possible sockpuppetry, you are free to open a request for checkuser. -- tariqabjotu 05:39, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Care to explain your actions?

I am not revert-warring, I am not trolling and I am certainly not anyone's sockpuppet. So what exactly is your problem? Tar-Elenion 14:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I have not been "heavily revert-warring" and you can see that through my special contributions [6]. And I have deleted the "sockpuppetry case" because it was proven to be totally false and because the templates totally messed up my page. I will bring this matter to WP:ANI if you continue, my tolerance for this kind of behaviour is zero degree. Tar-Elenion 16:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes I have been involved in revert-war on Slavica Ecclestone which I have admitted and that is why I have asked the page to be protected which was accepeted. The dispute on Roger Boscovich was anything but revert-war on my side, more a content dispute where Nikola failed to provide any verifiable source for his claims. These two cases can hardly be justification for your gross and very mean choice of words: "you have been revert-warring heavily". I am sure you had a few such disputes in the past, shall we conclude that you "revert-war heavily" too? And no, that was not a threat, it is a course of action I will take if you and Paulcicero contintunue with these false accusations. I am sure there is some rule on Wikipedia which says you cannot just go around accusing people they have sockpuppets and/or are sockpuppets of someone else. Tar-Elenion 17:43, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How did I offended you?

I see that you have reported me accusing me of being a sockpuppet (again). Tell me, did I offended you in some way? I am not revert-warring, I am not offending anyone and I have never said anything against anyone. I am like any other decent member contributing as best I can. I simply don't understand your obsession of you and Paulcicero proving I am someone's sockpuppet. You say I was silent after your last post to me and said this is evidence. Evidence to what? I want to have this ridiculous dispute behind me and you accuse me so. Why are you so malevolent towards me? Tar-Elenion 20:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Well yes I am worried, I was worried the last time Paulcicero accused me too. I don't know what this checkuser means and how it conducts it's investigation or how reliable it is. I am also worried because I also checked my IP and it says 89.172.194.247 which means I have the same ISP like the anonymous person you associated me and also like most sockpuppets of the banned user you refer as Afrika paprika (Severina song?). Tar-Elenion 21:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

So what if this checkuser mistakes my IP as being connected to the other IP's? This would mean I would get blocked!! What then, is there any way I could appeal to this? Perhaps by email? And if this happens is there any chance I could prove I am not this person? Did such cases occur in the past? Tar-Elenion 21:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Milo

same magnitude of Slobodan Milosevic. I must desagree. Besides, that was not about war crimes, or about presidency affair. Its an allegation for cooperating with tobacco smuglerers. I know what kind of person he is and what a criminal he is, but encyclopedian writing has sertain styles.

You undid the wrong edit. You undid my last edit, but i think that wanted to leave that one, but undo the one before. --Milan Tešović 21:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

did he achieve that much wealth through criminal activities? What wealth? He ownes one apartment in which he and his family live. Nothing else. He probably has lots of many in foreign banks, but are no proofs. That is why you cant name him tycoon in second or third sentence of the article.
sex-slave trafficking ...is a speculation, and it looks to me nothing but that. Who knows...
weapons dealing to the eastern extremist armed forces. -now that is foolish . No such thing.
Stealing cows? Croatia, at the time ruled by neo-nazists (right wing extremists finding Ustaše a role-model) were commiting a genocide over Serbs. See War in Croatia, here misnamed Indepence war (since it wasnt about croatian independence from Yugoslavia)
This is not about for or against Milo, I just tought that that fact should find its place in some other part of the article.
Do you speak Serbian? Fin trening engleskog --Milan Tešović 00:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you really support Milo and his DPS CG?. No and I never did. Not when he was with Bulatovic, nor when they split up. After the split up everyone was of with Milo, or with Momo (Bulatovic) - no undesided, no one in between - a binary choise. Exept for me. I could stand them. --Milan Tešović 02:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC) P.S. how can you even ask me that? dont you read what i say? read again

Podgorica Civic Assembly has proclaimed Stjepan Mesic honorary citizen. So what?
I know what "options" there are. I live there (see my user page). Also check out what percentage did Djukanoc and Bulatobiv have on the parlament and presidential elections in 1997 and 1998. They were both one party, they broke up and booom - two parties that were ones one party have 80-90% voters "together". That is called two party system (like so called Democrats and so called Republicans in the US). --Milan Tešović 14:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

p.s. Achive this page. Its terribly huuuugee.

I LIVE IN SUTOMORE, Montenegro. You could have read this on my user page. --Milant Talk 17:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Userpage

Hope you don't mind if I responded to the request at Khoikhoi's talkpage :-) --Domitius 00:06, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] R.E

I still admire some of his qualities, but in light of some of the crimes he has (allegedly?) committed, and the fact that he cannot compare the slightest with Alexander and the others, I felt it was time to remove him. —KingIvan 10:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ијекавски

Разлике у језику словенских племена у вријеме сеоба биле су скоро незнатне, мада су се неки "дијалекти" - будући словенски језици - већ почели развијати. Чакавско нарјечје икавског изговора најстарији је језик Хрвата, према мишљењу Шафарика и Добровског. Вук Караџић чакавски назива "правим хрватским", а за кајкавски сматра да је словеначки дијалекат који је кроатизован. Тако су сматрали и многи словеначки филолози и лингвисти у раздобљу романтизма. Неки су српски и хрватски лингвисти вјеровали да је чакавско нарјечје најстарије и да је "отац штокавскога". Александар Белић сматрао је да се чакавски у прошлости простирао до Шумадије, указујући на неке икавске значајке и у србијанским говорима (старИји, волИм, сИкира). Међутим, ово је мишљење данас напуштено. Изговори који данас постоје - екавски, ијекавски и икавски - тада се још увијек нису сасвим раздијелили, већ је употреби и даље био вокал јат, мада су се неки дијалекти већ били почели формирати. У почетку су највјероватније постојале двије штокавице, како вјерују хрватски лингвисти, источна (у Црној Гори и Србији) и западна (у Босни и Херцеговини и Хрватској, до Боке Которске и Дрине), па се усљед сеоба народа пред Турцима источна штокавица проширила и на запад и то је ова коју данас користимо. Ипак, све то су само претпоставке, јер о језику словенских племена на Балкану у то вријеме јако мало се зна (будући да је старословенски био књижевни језик, те се народни језик ријетко користио, осим оних примјеса које су улазиле у писани језик стварајући рецензије старословенскога). У сваком случају, занимљиво је примијетити да је хрватски језик од старине икавски, а и украјински језик садржи неке значајке које бисмо могли назвати икавским (лiкар и сл.), а Хрвати су се доселили из данашње западне Украјине; док и пољски језик, а Срби су дошли из данашње Пољске, садржи неке значајке које бисмо могли назвати ијекавскима (dziecko и сл.). Када се то има у виду, може се рећи да су Срби можда донијели ијекавицу на Балкан, а Хрвати икавицу, мада се у то доба још увијек користио вокал јат. Но, све је то опскурно и дискутабилно... --Djordje D. Bozovic 13:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Accusation

Hi PE, User Pannonian made a number of allegations stemming from our debate on the "NATO bombing of Novi-Sad article", on talk page of said article & on a page where I requested a RFC [7], and my talkpage [8]. Amongst other things he accused me of:

  • being an internet troll;
  • of bad faith;
  • of a racist attitude and ethnic hate against Serbs;
  • of making edits full of racist prejudice.

And imputed that "aim is to present that all Serbs are evil and that Serbs cannot be victims of the war"

He also stated that "I myself was an victim of the war, and claims of this user that I was guilty for the suffer that I survived is simply outrage.".

Now I cannot tell, if Pannonian is suffering from PTS, or making the mistake of personalising the issue, or cynically using anecdotal experience in the face of logical arguments contrary to his position. I'll go by wiki guidelines & assume good faith, and thus conclude it's either PTS or just that the issue has personal significance for him. IMO, the allegations reflect either seeing s/t or wanting to see s/t that isn't there.

I generally ignore the allegations made above, b/c they are unsubstantiated, and merely reflect a momentary lack of composure in the heat of debate, by the person making them. And I am sure that @ one moment or another, we all had moments of bad judgement, but when we walk away from it, we can see things more clearly.

As for your allegation which I'm assuming is one of POV. I invite you to look @ my edits for the article that was in dispute, and see that they were well-sourced & non-controversial.

Most of my edits generally are fact checking & throwing out unsourced material, material that is presented in a way that is no longer recognisable from it's source, material from self-referential or dubious sources. Of those articles where I have done substantial edits (from memory), Croat COA, neo-nazism in Croatia, a section on Croatian Serbs, a section on Yugoslav wars, & basketballer Stojko Vrankovic; most of the material has remained unchanged or done in agreement with other editors. And as you know from interacting with me, I am more than willing to discuss a point of view based n the facts.

More than happy to discuss the how you formed such a perception, b/c I think it is a mistaken one.

Cheers, iruka 07:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

PE, it looks like I'm not the only one to come under accusation by Pannonian - see here [9]. If one didn't assume good faith, it could be taken as stalking or standover tactics to intimidate away members of wikipedia that had a contrary view. It really doesn't help Pannonian's case, when he accuses a contributor w/o evidence & then asks them to leave wikipedia b/c it goes against Wikipedia:No personal attacks & Wikipedia:Assume good faith. iruka 01:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added referendum

Is there a source stating that there'll be a referendum this year? Or was that just assumption? —Nightstallion (?) 13:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Help

You appear to have already done it. :-) Khoikhoi 02:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not Twins

Man, I just don't know how you can think this. We are all just editors here.Buffadren 14:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RFCU

We only have checkuser data in the database for a limited period of time. I cannot run the check because there is no data. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 16:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Calm and civil?

You accuse me of being someone's sockpuppet and you say I should remain calm and civil?!? How do you expect me to do that? No, I am not extreme revert-warrior, yes I was revert-warring at Slavica Ecclestone and I suffered the consequences. What do you mean I was not cleared? The checkuser said declined and your request was denied. What do you mean someone else used my AOL IP address? When? Where? All your proofs are allegations and slander, there is not one proof of me being anyone's sockpuppept (this AfrikaPaprika included). No one used my IP address, how can someone use my IP address?!? Tar-Elenion 18:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Somehow I doubt that accusing someone of being a sockpuppet or having sockpuppets is just business as usual. I look at your previous request and the checkuser was not dclined because of my inactivity but due to AfrikaPaprika's inactivity. In the end the request was denied and that is what matters. What with this and this? I told you my IP, where do you see my IP here? You have absolutly no proof of me being a sockpuppet and how could you when I am not anyone's sockpuppet. Stop with this charade. Tar-Elenion 18:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I see now that you are totally insane. No, checkuser didn't confirm I am AfrikaPaprika. Leave me alone you lunatic! Tar-Elenion 19:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Leave me alone already! What is wrong with you man?! Tar-Elenion 19:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:AN/I

You may want to comment at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#PaxEquilibrium and Tar-Elenion. Given the tone of the conversation between the two of you, escalation in one direction or another seems appropriate. – Luna Santin (talk) 19:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

On second thought, I see there's already a thread. x.x Merged the two. – Luna Santin (talk) 19:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I've dropped you another e-mail explaining my current reservations; if you could take a look at it and reply if possible when you have a chance, I'd appreciate it. Thanks! —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 18:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Emir

Hello. This is my latest attempt to reason with Emir Arven. If he still does not understand the err of his ways, is there any chance of you talking to him and explaining that he is behaving like a spoiled child? Perhaps a comment from an editor who is not currently involved in a huge dispute with him will help defuse the situation. Thank you. —KingIvan 07:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This message has nothing to do with my message above

What does "otidzi na MSN!!!" mean? Someone, whom I don't know, with a South Slavic sounding name, just sent me an email and that is all the text in it. —KingIvan 07:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bosniaks

Hello, regarding Bosnia which are an issue now, and considering you would know, when does a distinctly Bosniak ethnos first appear in history? Particularly does it date back to Bogomilism or is that merely coincidental? Did it pre-exist it or did it come about after the Ottoman conquest. I'm interested in this because, like you, I'm interested in history. Unfortunately there are not many references on this point without an agenda of some sort so reaching the facts each time is not always easy.--Domitius 12:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Am I wrong if I assume that which of the three main Serbo-Croatian-speaking peoples (Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs) came first is one of the most bitterly disputed subjects? :)
The way I see it the Balkans are full of such Bosniak examples: "Macedonians", Moldovans, Pomaks and maybe even Montenegrins. Moldovan and "Macedonian" historians have a hell of a time trying to justify their claims of centuries of separate cultural existence. The former emphasize the medieval Principality of Moldavia as evidence of centuries of a separate identity and the latter some alleged contact and mix between ancient Macedonians and Slavs (something which mainstream academics hold never took place). In the pre-20th century period one wouldn't find much more than Bulgarians and Serbs as the only Slavs in Macedonia and not much more than Romanians as the only Latin-speakers in Moldavia. The Pomaks are a more complex case - it's obvious that they are Islamized Bulgarians who now declare as something else (ring a bell?), but now there is Greek and Turkish propaganda as well: Greeks claiming they are Bulgarized and Islamized Greeks and Turks that they are Bulgarized Turks. I probably shouldn't be going into this in much detail or someone may throw something at me :)
As for the last genocide committed by Serbs (for Emir's benefit) I think it should be pointed out that Serbia was found by the ICJ not to have been behind it, presumably the same applies to the whole Serb nation. The doings of several isolated individuals which, let me clarify, were certainly genocide, cannot be representative of all Serbs. It's almost just as nationalistic as denying genocide to falsely accuse people who had nothing to do with it of genocide.--Domitius 19:14, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Regarding genocide, it was concluded by ICJ that Serbia violated Genocide Convention (it still does, because Serbia still hides general Ratko Mladic and didn't punish any of those 20.000 soldiers that were involved in Genocide). And I didn't say Serbia commited genocide, but Serbs or Republika Srpska Army (Serb Republic) - of course not all Serbs. This fact was also concluded by ICJ. So it is not about individuals, it is about 20.000 soldiers that participated in planning genocide, implementing genocide, hiding genocide, and denying it. Emir Arven 20:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Regarding other nations or ethnic groups: I think freedom is the most important thing. Small nations will always be targeted by big ones. This fight will never end. And it is really sad. I think history of Balkan should be written by neutral non-Balkan authors (whose roots are not from the Balkans also), just pure experts from Oxford, Yale who are interested in their job. Emir Arven 20:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
[To Emir]: The ICJ found that Serbia violated the Genocide Convention, not that they were guilty of genocide (the BBC had a good article on this [10], they also have a video of the court delivering the ruling).--Domitius 20:21, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Now that you bring it up - Kosovo. What do you think is going to happen? I'm asking because you may have heard more than me about it; last thing I heard was that there seems to be some sort of deadlock with both sides making mutually exclusive demands. Do you think independence is likely?--Domitius 20:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

What happens tomorrow?--Domitius 22:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I see - so there'll by quite a few demonstrations tomorrow. Stay tuned... In my opinion, independence will be out of the question, asking a country to surrender sovereignty is not something you can expect them to easily agree to. Perhaps a Hong Kong/Macau arrangement would do?--Domitius 23:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

Vandalize my page one more time and you will be reported. I had enough of your crap, it's not enough that you falsly accuse me but you are also trying to impose your BS upon me. Back off! Tar-Elenion 23:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Everything I do or write you say: it is a typical behaviour of AfrikaPaprika". Why can't you just accept that you made a mistake?!? I am not this person, so stop harassing me!!! Tar-Elenion 23:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Will you stop telling people I am a sockpuppet? I am not this person! Please let bbatsell finish reviewing the "evidence" you emailed to him and makes a descion. You are telling people I am guilty before the verdict is out, stop it! And please stop clogging my discussion page with useless messages, you are the last person I want to speak right now. Tar-Elenion 14:51, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tar-Elenion

Can you please ask Aldux to confirm it? He knows AP better than I do. Thanks, Khoikhoi 03:37, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo again

I don't think the Serbian side has anything to worry about. Which country of influence in the issue do you know which does not want to create a precedent for unilateral secession? The only one I can think of is the USA; everyone else, Russia (e.g. Chechnya, Tatarstan), UK (e.g. Northern Ireland, Scotland), France (e.g. the Basque Country, Brittany), Spain (the Basque country, Catalonia), Germany (Schleswig-Holstein), Italy (South Tyrol with its ever growing German-speaking majority)... even Albania (Northern Epirus). I'm sure complete autonomy would suffice. Beggars can't be choosers and if it's all the Albanians can be offered they'll just have to accept it.--Domitius 19:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Ustašoidi u akciji"

Hey PaxEquilibrium. Could you please translate this for me? Thanks, Khoikhoi 21:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User_cg Template

Ah, OK... My fault this time :) I didn't realise the title changed from cg-N to just cg. Good. What was your question again? You asked too many at once ;) Momisan 00:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I am just about to go for a swim in the ocean, what else can I say :-) Not interested in local or diaspora emigration politics, so I can't help you much there, I'm afraid.Momisan 01:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Montenegrins

Don't I count? :) Seriously, it is quite odd that the only Montenegrin editors are those from diaspora (predominantly), or people with some sort of Montenegrin ancestry. I don't know why, but it seems that people are simply not interested enough, or just the prejudice about us being lazy is true. And one more thing... How are you "partially" from Montenegro? :) Sideshow Bob 04:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not from Montenegro, I'm from totally opposite end of our former land :( :). Perhaps You noticed Portal:Montenegro I started. We need editor who will constantly moderate the portal. You are always welcome. --BokicaK 13:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
My father's family is from Grahovac, and my mother's side of family is one of the most famous families/clans from Old Montenegro(Rijeka Crnojevića, that is). So, I don't think it gets more Montenegrin than that:). And about lack of people living from Montenegro, I would say that apathy is the real issue, not only in this instance. Cheers. Sideshow Bob 19:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Number of speakers

95% of the Montenegrin dijaspora in the US (not just the muslim one) say that they speak Montenegrin. Now you can tell we why bring in the Dijaspora? Well, without the Croatian dijaspora and Serbian one, this was (1992-1995) would not have been as nationalistic. i.e Many Ustasa came from Latin America and spread their ideas. Anyways, Montenegrins have their cultural centers. There they keep in touch with their culture, language, and history. The centers I speak of are strictly Montenegrin! Once one of the Bosnian organizations tried to make a meeting and barely got it (through connections). Montenegrins are people who strictly keep to their culture. These people believe that they have their own language. I can guarantee you that most people who voted for independence have that view. The Serbian population of Montenegro surely believes that the language is Serbian. Thanks, Vseferović 17:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moja opklada

Ne mnogo pare, samo 10 evra :) --Domitius 13:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of historical revisionism, didn't Pavelić and the Ustaše cook up a theory on the Gothic and therefore Aryan (in contrast to the inferior Slav) origin of the Croats? I hear Hitler endorsed the theory which proves that theories even as dubious as that can be accepted when it's politically convenient. You do realize why certain Bosniac historians claim that - it's so as to prove that they are indigenous to the Balkans or at the very least were there before anyone else and therefore if land has been taken from them, it's unjust. This is the same reason that Dodona-anon on my talkpage claims the Albanians are the descendants of the Pelasgians and that the Albanian language is not an Indo-European language (lol), so as to claim to be the oldest ethnic group in the Balkans and territory has been ("unjustly") taken from them after foreign immigrants settled there. Put simply, it legitimizes land claims.--Domitius 13:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, see this if you want a good laugh :) don't forget to see what they say about "Macedonia" and "Chameria".--Domitius 13:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

BTW don't you think you should archive your 357 KB (!) long talkpage. Are you trying to outdo User:Joy or something?--Domitius 13:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo, Serbs, Bosniaks, and Balkan politics

Bosniak's reply to PaxEquilibrium

Bosnian Serbs never wanted to stay in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they don't want to stay even today. The government of Bosnia-Herzegovina has control over all of its territory. You cannot say the same for the government of Serbia. Kosovo is under NATO supervision and Serbia has no political or military control over it. As russian diplomat put it: "Serbia has already lost Kosovo and won’t have it back. Abstaining in the vote, Moscow can save its face." source The bottom line is, there has been only up to 5% of Serbs in pre-war Kosovo. Do you really believe you deserve to have that teritory as part of Serbia? In pre-war teritory of todays Republika Srpska, Bosniaks constituted at least 40% of population. So you can't draw a paralel between the two. Bosniak 21:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RFC

A request for comment requires the support of at least two users. Would you be willing to lend your support to the case if it goes ahead? —KingIvan 03:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC) 07:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Pax, please sign here.

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[edit] Bosnia and Macedonia

I suppose you've seen this, yes? I think they make some good points and the exact same could be said for the Macedonian Slavs. The most telling quote in my opinion is this:

“ With this name [Bosniaks], they portray themselves as people who gave rise to Bosnia and have a sort of supposed, legitimate and birth right to this territory. ”

Sounds all too familiar... the Macedonian Slavs, who are about 60% in FYROM (which is 39% of Macedonia (region); 51% is part of Greece) are portraying "themselves as people who gave rise to Macedonia and have a sort of supposed, legitimate and birth right to this territory", including the Greek portion with its Greek majority to an imaginary "United Macedonia". The blue text in the link, which is a quote from the Encyclopaedia Britannica Eleventh Edition, is also quite interesting.--Domitius 23:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:PaxEquilibrium/Poll

Hello. I came across your poll today. With your permission, I would like to include a link to it from my user page because I think that it's a very interesting page and the more people who know about it, the more interesting responses you'll receive. Anyway, that's all for now. Bye. —KingIvan 08:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shame...

So it's safe to say Serbia has lost Kosovo?! I guess this means the TRNC is also lost forever... No wonder Turkish Cypriots are being so full of themselves [11].--Domitius 15:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

BTW do you think it's better now [12]?--Domitius 15:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Emir, Vojvodina...

Što se tiče Emira, zaboravio sam već oko čega sam se sa njim raspravljao i kada, tako da bih izgubio previše vremena tražeći te stare diskusije - a sada tog vremena nemam, jer hoću da sredim opštine Makedonije a u planu imam i neke druge stvari. Što se tiče partizana i Mađara, o tome postoji članak: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1944-1945_Killings_in_Bačka PANONIAN (talk) 23:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Montenegro

Do you know why there was a separate Kingdom of Montenegro? The people obviously considered themselves Serbs, so why was there a separate country?--Domitius 18:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, yes it did :) --Domitius 21:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Emir Arven

Thank you for pointing that out. I did not know of your connection, so I had not looked at your statement, but upon reading through it all, I have also agreed to putting Emir on probation and giving him an official warning. Such sort of hateful comments are not tolerated on Wikipedia. I dealt with a similar user (Oguz1) just a few weeks ago, who incited the same type of anti-XX comments, but regarding the Turkish involvement in the Armenian Genocide. Nishkid64 18:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh...hehe. I meant that I had not originally read your statement, but after I did, I came to the same conclusion. Nishkid64 18:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually the more I read into this, the more I'm thinking this should be a case for admin/community action. I haven't officially decided to take the case since there is a lot of history to this dispute and I'm not entirely convinced there is anything to be accomplished via advocacy. I'm also not comfortable advocating for anyone that seems bent on dishing out everything they recieve. All I'm recommending right now is stepping back and a last ditch offer of peace to discuss it, but it looks very much beyond that. Unfortunately I'm not an admin, so I can't take any of the prescribed actions directly. At the moment, I'm thinking on the same lines as Nishkid64 on the course of action and unless I hear back something positive and calm soon from the parties, I'm going to elevate this to "under investigation" and recommend continuing the dispute resolution process. Arbitration may be called for at this point. -Cquan 18:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

..for helping out on the Bosnian language article in sorting out the dates with saint cyril. I will look further into the matter, but I believe you're right. Ancient Land of Bosoni

[edit] The UN on the future of Kosovo

It seems that the wheels are in motion [13]. Assuming the UN Security Council does pass it (i.e. no one vetos), what will happen can/is it likely that/will it be imposed on Serbia? Has Serbia lost Kosovo or is there still hope? I've never really understood - if Ahtisaari's plan goes through, will Kosovo actually be independent or will is still be legally part of Serbia?--Domitius 23:26, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

About Montenegro, I see what you mean. On more recent issues, do you know what's happening regarding a standardized "Montenegrin language" or are people (or most people i.e. those who form the majority of the vote and make the decisions) there still happy with Serbian proper?--Domitius 23:26, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

So all hope for Kosovo is lost? I was thinking that if both sides didn't accept it (as happened with the case of the Annan Plan for Cyprus), then the plan failed. I will be interesting to see what the effects of this will be: demand for an independent Republika Srpska will certainly increase, but in what form? Demonstrations, nationalist websites, provocative statements by government officials, who knows? I'm primarily concerned with how it will affect the Cyprus dispute, the Turkish area going independent is not my concern, it's fairness: when Turkey invaded Turkish Cypriots were 18% of the population. Why do they get 37% of the island, especially considering that the methods they used to obtain it included expelling Greek Cypriots from there homes (something which the European Court of Human Rights unsuprisingly found in the case of Loizidou v Turkey to be a breach of human rights and suprisingly IMO held Turkey responsible). I wish all international disputes could be worked out :) --Domitius 00:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Are relations between Cyprus and Serbia really that bad? The Serbian MFA says that: Relations between the two countries are good and friendly ... Bilateral relations between the Republic of Cyprus and the Republic of Serbia are traditionally good with no outstanding issues as confirmed by top level visits [14].--Domitius 13:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:

I live in Tivat, but I'm also very frequently in both Kotor and Herceg Novi, since most of the parties and fešte are there. :) Sideshow Bob 15:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to reveal too much of my personal information, but let's put it this way: I have lived in Tivat until August last year, when I temporarily moved to Richmond, VA. I am going back to Montenegro in 3 months, so I'd say that classifies as "living there". By the way, happy St. Patrick's Day. Cheers. Sideshow Bob 23:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I've just seen your question if I have ever been abroad... :) You have the list of the countries I visited on my userpage, and I'm looking to add Italy to it by the end of the year, since I always wanted to visit it, and speak some Italian as well. What about you? Sideshow Bob 20:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Portal/WikiProject

I think the idea for a MonteNews section is a great one. Though, for the barnstar, it will have to take me a while until I figure out how in the world I am going to be able to put the Montenegrin flag in that little area where the flag of Russia is in that medal (a.k.a. barnstar). Thanks for the ideas.

P.S. I am extremely sorry for accusing you of being such a pro-Serbian and acting more like a Serb than a Montenegrin.

P.P.S. Olaf is back, though he is contributing under User:Montenegro (MNE), I don't know why would he just change his username like that anyways. --Crna Gora 18:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Re:"Lord" Sekule Drljevic

The war criminals cat is generally a difficult one to consider NPOV is many situations. In this particular case though, the Drljevic article makes no mention of any war crimes, except that the Partisans considered him a criminal. I'm afraid the Partisans are not the most neutral source on the matter. I have no idea personally, whether he committed crimes, but the cat is POV until there's at least some mention of them.

Anyways, while we're on the topic of Montenegrins... I'm not exactly sure if you are aware that the Red Croatia image you uploaded was not created by Jevrem Brković, which you have implied on several articles. The map itself comes from Dominik Mandić's Crvena Hrvatska (which I happened to be skimming through at the university a few days ago). --Thewanderer 20:19, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sock?

Do you think GreaterCroatia (talk · contribs) is a sock of Afrika paprika? I'm rather ill-informed on the matter however he seems to fit the profile.--Domitius 00:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] archives

Hi. I just randomly visited your talk page, but may I suggest you archive this page, as it is over 300 kb long and has over 250 sections, and this can cause browser problems on some computers, so please start a new archive. Thanks. AstroHurricane001(Talk+Contribs+Ubx) 00:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hey

Well you're correct, ZemljaBosna.com is perhaps not the first source you should turn to, since it is patriotic. But however, I have read the same thing regarding the Bosnian language in English sources, I just can't recall exactly what specific sources. I will visit the library and try to find the exact source, but until that you have my word that what is written is true and correct, but of course it is never bad to cite. Pozdrav! Ancient Land of Bosoni

[edit] Montenegrin Wikipedia Proposal

You are confusing me... :) At first you announced you'll remain neutral, then you added yourself to the lis of supporters, but at the same time you are lobbying against the proposal with some trivial arguments and assumptions . This contradictoriness is quite confusing, so please explain me, what is your goal concerning this particular issue, since I can't figure out if you support us or not... Sideshow Bob 00:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RE. MNE

Well, in Montenegrin, Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian, etc. it might be a female country, but in Portuguese and Spanish, it's a he-country. ;-) Regards, Húsönd 20:09, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good or bad news?

See this, do you think it's safe to say that Serbia has lost Kosovo? Greece is trying to help (last paragraph), but I don't think much can be done now.--Domitius 23:39, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Historical figures

The page above is being considered for deletion. Please feel free to take part in the discussion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Historical figures. John Carter 18:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serbs of Mostar - ethnic cleansing/expulsion

No let me explain. I don't dispute the events, just the usage. I explained why I feel that "ethnic cleanse" is inappropriate on the talk page of the user who provided the source. To save me writing it again, why don't you see what I wrote and tell me what you thought. 212.24.91.2 10:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Did you read the longer message I wrote to the other user?? 212.24.91.2 11:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serbian election

Why this? The election was only in January and only on one day, or not? —Nightstallion (?) 14:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Case

If they are involved in the issue I would recomend pointing them to both. Also if you do have anything to contribute I would add it into the RfC. Æon Insanity Now! Give Back Our Membership! 18:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:AjdemiPopushi

Actually, there's a lot more important reason to block User:AjdemiPopushi. It's an offensive nickname. In Serbo-Croat it means, "Come on and and suck mine" (100% referring to You-know-what).

Cheers. --PaxEquilibrium 20:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, that certainly makes me feel better about blocking him without opening a request for checkuser. -- tariqabjotu 21:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yes

Yes, yes, I'm here. Sorry for not getting back to you :) My userpage: it has been deleted [15], I asked for it. How are you?--Domitius 23:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Still no agreement on the government? Well, you can kind of understand it, it's such a critical time. However, I suppose most people are going to react like me, I'm just tired of waiting so I've stopped following the developments. Same with Kosovo independence or not - I've stopped looking into it, it's taking so long. Do people still not know what's going to happen? What does the UN Security Council have to say? I know it was submitted, haven't they decided yet?--Domitius 23:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Serious economic crackdown in just two days you say, that's ugly. Good luck with that.--Domitius 00:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Odgovori mi

Ajd mi samo objasni zasto si se toliko navabio na mene? Znam reci ces takva su pravila ali nisi se bas iskazao. Sto je moja krivnja? Editirao sam clanke nakon bloka, ali to je bilo sasvim razumljivo buduci da sam onda tek stigao na Wikipedia. Onda pravim novim account i ne cinim ama bas nista, ali opet dobijam block jer sam sockuppept, da nije tuzno bilo bi smijesno. I sad svaki put kada se vratim dobijem block jer sam sockuppept, a zbog cega, zbog prve pocetne greske. Imas idiote poput Giovanni Giovea koji luta po Wikipediji nesmetano i editira clanke kako ga volja: vandaliziranje, premjestanje, falsificiranje...sto god ti srce zeli, ali ne, vi dajete meni block, a njemu slobodne odrijesene ruke i blagoslov da i dalje radi sto zeli. Drugim rijecima, ajmo ovako, sredi Giovanni Giove-a, revertiraj njegove izmjene i lazi i neces me vise vidjeti na Wikipediji. Pokazi sad da ti je zbilja stalo do Wikipedija kao sto tvrdis. Izvadi krpelja. ;) --Krpelj 03:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Ja jesam blokiran za pocetnicku pogresku, ostatak je bio moj bijes i odmazda za neposteno ponasanje s tvoje strane i sa strane nekih drugih ljudi. Totalno odbijanje kompromisa i rasprava od prije toga od tvoje strane je ono sto me jako ljuti i razlog zasto sam izbjegavao block. Buduci da sam bio nov blokiranje sam shvatio kao tvoju manipulaciju buduci da nisam imao pojma o wikipedijinim pravilima. Ne krivim tebe za blokove, ali da se nisi bas posteno ponio i da si maliciozno iskoristio tu cinjnenicu to definitvno stoji. "Vandaliziranje" tvoje stranice je samo odraz moje ljutne zbog te, kako sam je ja vidim, nepravde. A sto se tice Giovnni Giovea, ne znam za njegove sockove, recimo da sumnjam jedino na User:GiorgioOrsini, problem nije u njegovim klonovima nego u premjestanju clanaka bez ikakve rasprave, micanju bilo kakvog spomena hrvatskog imena u razno-raznim clancima od Dubrovacke Republike, Jakova Mikalje, Stjepana Gradica, itd. Pogledaj njegov doprinos Wikipediji i vidjet ces da se covjek stalno svadja, radi edit-ratove i mijenja clanke bez ikakvog konsenzusa i argumenata u ono sto njemu odgovara. Da si posten i tako neutralan kako tvrdis vec bi odavno skocio za vrat ovom idiotu, ali tebi to odgovara jer svatko tko je nastrojen anti-hrvatski tvoje je saveznik i prijatelj. --Krpelj 06:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Necu pisati na engleskom i necu prestati editirati clanke. Neretljani nisu bili Srbi i to je cinjenica na kojoj cu ustrajati dok god mogu i dok ne pristanes na kompromis. Uglavnom vidim da si ti jedna tvrdoglava budaletina, pokvareni egomanijak kojemu je cilj cisto eliminirati svakoga tko mu ne odgovara i tko ti se javno suprotstavi tvojim mitovima i velikosrpskoj propagandi. E pa znaj da ako ces ti biti tvrdoglav da ces se uvjeriti (ako vec nisi) da i ja znam biti jednako tvrdoglav. I prestani vise sa sranjima oko mojeg bloka, ja znam zasto sam blokiran, a znas i ti. Predstave i glupe isprazne fraze ostavi za ove glupane koji padaju na tvoje stosove, a mene postedi. Da si bio posten prvi put i slozio se oko kompromisa, a ne napadao mene osobno ovoga nikad ne bi bilo. Ako te zbilja zanima Giovanni Giove pogledaj u njegove special contributions, pa ces vidjeti, svi njegovi editi su bad faith i cista disrupcija. Da je tebi Wikipedija toliko vazna vec bi ti to odavno napravio, a ne bi vodio svoje male privatne ratove sa mnom, odbijanjem bilo kakvog kompromisa to si vec i pokazao. Uostalom zasto ne trazis checkuser za GiorgioOrsini Giovanni Giovea? Garantiram ti da su jedna te ista osoba. Uostalom eliminiranje ovog idiota bi i tebi trebao prioritet buduci da se radi o obicnog rasistickom smecu koji je vise puta na news grupu soc.culture.croatia javno izrekao da su svi Slaveni smece i barbari. --Krpelj 15:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] For MaGioZal

Your discussion with this user is very confusing so I want interfere any more. You are free to delete my remark. Sorry, I didn’t understood that this is between you two. --Marko M 07:57, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo

United Nations charters have no guarantees I'm afraid. It works from the basis that each case is different. There is a long standing UN resolution on Kashmir yet it still has yet to get its independence. A Russian veto has much wider implications. Buffadren 11:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] One more good reason to be in favour of Kosovar independence...

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2007&mm=03&dd=30&nav_category=93&nav_id=40432 Cheers! —Nightstallion (?) 15:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue XIII - March 2007

The March 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

This is an automated delivery by grafikbot 19:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Afrika paprika returned

Afrika paprika is editing again as User:Krpelj. Self-identified.

I told him I won't report him, so that I can satisfy his demands (about two Italian users) - but I also did not allow him to edit any article (violating his ban). He openly said that he's stubborn and said that he will never stop editing, and continued the old edit-wars he was leading as Afrika paprika and Factanista.

My patience is running thin with this guy, I hope I can remain good faithed.... Cheers. --PaxEquilibrium 16:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

It looks like someone else did something about this; if you need anymore assistance, feel free to ask. -- tariqabjotu 22:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IPA

I really don't know anyone who knows IPA, but, you can come to our IRC channels and ask them about that. Channels are #wikipedia-sr, #wikipedia-hr, #wikipedia-bs on irc.freenode.net IRC server. --SasaStefanovic • 05:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cheers

Well, from our perspective, we actually had to defend our unification. Of course, it was a silly and sorrowful war. Our national poet Ivan Vazov wrote some poems about it, often focusing on the brotherhood between Bulgarians and Serbs and the fault being all Milan's. Here's a link if you're interested :) I regard all wars as stupid because basically I'm a pacifist, but I understand our goals in the Balkan Wars: we were all looking to expand our states, and of course, we clashed. After that all Bulgaria was looking to do was to compensate for the diplomatic and political failure in the Balkan Wars, but the conditions had already changed. Todor→Bozhinov 09:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, Pašić... intentionally or not, both the article in English and in Serbian are totally confusing about his origin, calling his parents Aromanians from Bulgaria (we have almost no Aromanians here) or his father a Serb from Macedonia, but still, the articles claim his Bulgarian family would prove to be lifesaving in the future. Why is all that? Is there really some discrepancy between the sources? Todor→Bozhinov 16:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Circassian? That would be interesting. It really doesn't matter that much anyway, he's a 100% Serbian politician. Todor→Bozhinov 18:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Montenegrin language controversy

I appreciate your lengthy explanation of the current status of the language proposal in the Parliament, although I knew most of the things, since I've been reading online edition of Vijesti :) But I must say I haven't heard of those polls you're talking about, and find it hard to believe that those figures are representative of the public opinion. Where did you get that data? Also, I consider PZP's proposal laughable, if they want to find a damn compromise, let tham make both Montenegrin and Serbian official, rather than making some sort of linguistic Frankenstein (like Krivokapic's proposal of "south Slavic" language as official). Also, Bosniaks' proposal has no chance to pass, because it might cause Albanians, of even Croats, to seek recognition of their languages(well, since I live in the town with most Croats in Montenegro, some of which are among my best friends, I can tell you that a part of them accept Montenegrin as their native language). Anyway, that sort of proposal ain't gonna go far. Na kraju krajeva, ovo je Crna Gora, a ne Švajcarska... :)Sideshow Bob 21:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

You know it is not the same language, otherwise why would it has two separate articles on Wikipedia, and why would be asking for Wikipedia in Montenegrin? :) I haven't voted, but I am a sympathyser( Supporter is too strong of a term) of Liberal Party of Montenegro, who are still promoting some sort of liberalism, and I don't see a better option at the moment, although Movement for Changes has a good second position in my book (and I personally know one of their vice-presidents :). I think that calling the language "crnogorsko-srpski" will bring nothing but confusion into our already weird enough political situation? By the way, what do you think abou the religious question in the Constitution, and "constitutuional nations" Vs. civic state concept? Sideshow Bob 01:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

_____________________________________________________________________

I could somehow accept coalition with SNP, even though I am very sceptic about that party and its true goals.

Also, I've just read that mutant proposal has great chances to pass because the Govt. got PZP's support on in. As the article states, "language won't be either Montenegrin or Serbian, but 'Montenegrin-Serbian' or 'unique language which citizens call Montenegrin, Serbian'... I see this as a way for Milo to deceive his Montenegrin-speaking voters by putting Montenegrin in the Constitution by equalising it to Serbian, and by doing that, strip it of all singnificance whatsoever. Even though I consider this decision treacherous(because it implies that Montenegrin=Serbian, and you know my opinion about that), I am sure you'll be delighted by it... Also, if they want PZP's support, DPS will have to agree to hold parliamentary elections along with presidential ones in 2008. By the way, Marovic finally resigned, if only Vujanovic does so, the whole DPS cabinet will be able to pronounce 'R' properly... :) Sideshow Bob 01:05, 4 April 2007 (UTC) _____________________________________

Just lettin' You know that Montenegrin Wikipedia proposal has been rejected(I have just realised that, it might be old news...). So, I guess you got what you wanted. Congrats. I am tired of fighting the don Quixote battle here, so I'll limit my future editing to Montenegro-related articles, trying to improve them as much as I can, since hardly anyone does, and also try keeping/making them neutral, which is much harder part, as I have learned in these couple of months I've been active here. Cheers. Sideshow Bob 03:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, you were one of the main dissenters, weren't ya? Anyway, the battle is lost, and I really don't want to bother about another similar proposal, because, as I said, I'd be fighting in vain once again .What's done is done. Cheers. Sideshow Bob 16:23, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Back

Thanks for your welcome back post. I don't intend to hang around long. I just wanted to read what this user Opus33 has to say about Joseph Haydn being Croatian. I find it a little odd that some websites openly say he could have been Croatian yet Wikipedia doesn't. I think the user read some nazi propaganda which was out to discredit Haydn being Croat and not actual stories/reports/books which say Haydn was Croat. Iam sick of edit wars over this type of stuff, same goes for Marco Polo etc...

I can't get over why C.Columbus can have 4 possible origins listed while the likes of Haydn and Polo can only have Austraian and Italian. Surely not all 4 origins are correct but if some evidnece exsist to support the theory why not add it to the article. Iam sure if Columbus was listed as Spanish only, the Itlaian users would go crazy...to keep the peace they added all 4 varients.

Seems to me that i need to become a Sheriff on Wikipedia to make a changes that stand up. This site isn't free to edit at all. It's very pov driven..

What do you think about Haydn as an outsider?

Take Care dude

Evergreen Montenegro1 03:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


Google or Yahoo Haydn Croatian. The info has been around for a very long time. Only after ww1 i think was it mentioned that he wasn't Croat. Some say that saying he wasn't Croat is a bit of Nazi propaganda. Interesting stuff, the guy even spoke Croatian.

Re Kosovo..gadno je to kad se odcipi Kosovo od Srbije i postane nova mala Albanija. Nemogu verovati sto sam dozivio u mom zivotu. Cela Yuga je pukla na sve strane.

Izvini ako ne odgovorim za nekoliko dana - uzeo samgodisnji.

Evergreen Montenegro1 22:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Did You ever hear...

... yes :) An interesting figure which ruled both Bulgaria and Serbia indeed! Todor→Bozhinov 08:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paul

I have just come from a lunch meeting at which certain people were suggesting the absence of equal rights of Serbs in Kosovo, and also suggesting that Serbs living in Kosovo would never be afforded this equality under Kosovo's independence. . I though this seemed very extreme. Is this a genuine fear, you may know ? Buffadren 14:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC).

Pax, a big thank you. I have supported Kosovo's independence but I am currently learning much about the future implications for international law. Buffadren 12:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] R.E, ?

Who be this "Nashkent" of which you speak? But yes, I would settle for your proposal of an official warning for Emir, and then a lengthy block if he repeats his behaviour.

P.S, what do you think of the new image of me on my user page? I'm hardcore, aren't I? ;) Seriously though, I miss school so much. —KingIvan 07:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] from Alkalada

PaxEquiliwhatever...

Can you please delete the stuff about you being anti nationalist. It is obvious that you want theese things:

1. Republika Srpska to become independent 2. Kosovo to stay within Serbia 3. Dont recognize the bosniak nation 4. Dont recognize bosnian language 5. Dont recognize the former bosnian kings as bosniaks

This clearly shows that you are a radical serbian nationalist and therefor I suggest you to admit that you are a serbian nationalist. Alkalada 15:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Thnx

I've never edited the Dalmatia article. Am I missing something? As for Emir, I'm not sure, I haven't talked with in a while. :-) Khoikhoi 11:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see! Done. Khoikhoi 12:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo Serbs

It would be foolish to claim the number of Serbs in Kosovo never exceeded 200,000. Throughout the Communist period it was 200,000; 220,000; 270,000; 280,000; 290,000. Just before the war and during it it was 250,000-300,000. Before the Ottomans conducted mass removals (19th century and before), it was 300,000-400,000. --PaxEquilibrium 12:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello let me first say to you Happy Easter. I disagree with you when it comes to the number of Serbs in Kosovo. The number of Serbs in Kosovo have exceeded 200 000 but not 230 000. 1948: 171 000, 1953: 189 000, 1961: 227 000, 1971: 228 000, 1974: 210 000, 90s: 190 000 (some of them refugees from Croatia and Bosnia). --Noah30 12:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
BTW I think the data alone shows the huge population losses ("exoduses") of Serbs from Kosovo during Communist era (the "hundreds of thousands"). Don't they? --PaxEquilibrium 13:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I think we should respect the data collected by Yugoslav Statistical offices. It makes no sense and would be POV if we start redefining the nationality of people. During the communist era many Serbs (as did many Albanian too) chose to leave Kosovo because Central Serbia was more developed, both economically and culturally. Many Serbs (and Albanians)who wanted to study had to move to for example Belgrade and did never come back, this happened all over Europe, and not just in Kosovo. People moved from rural areas cities and for many Serbs is was natural to study in Serbia (Kosovo did not have a university until 60s). Maybe some Serbs left Kosovo because they did not want to live in an area dominated by Albanians but it is more likely Serbs left Kosovo because of economy and education than Albanians. You are saying more than 400 000 Serbs lived in Kosovo before the 1999 war. I don`t believe this and even Serbian government have not said something like this. 400 000 is 25 % of the population and we all know Albanians in 1991 had 82 % of the population(100- 25 = 75 % Albanians + other minorities??).--Noah30 15:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Saying Serbs made two thirds of the population before the Balkan wars is irrational and do not correspondent at all with different statistical data from that time. Even Serbian historians say Albanians had majority many centuries before these wars. I still believe and will continue to so: Saying hundred thousands were killed and hundred thousands fled is propaganda. I hope Serbs are not saying something like this to justify the crimes and ethnic cleansing committed by them in the 90s.--Noah30 21:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mapa Bosne

Pa mislim da ti mapa nije tačna - ja imam detaljnu versku kartu BIH iz 1921 koja pokazuje prostore sa muslimanskom većinom. Gde su ti prostori na tvojoj karti? PANONIAN (talk) 14:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Koji si ti izvor koristio za te podatke iz 1910? Takođe, da li svetloplava boja predstavlja "relative majority" ili "significant minority"? - jer Srbi sigurno nisu bili većina u najvećem delu Hrvatske u to vreme. Ovde imaš jednu prilično tačnu mapu sa podacima iz 1910: http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/nepek.gif A očigledno je da se podaci na tvojim mapama baš ne slažu sa ovim. PANONIAN (talk) 18:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
A možeš pogledati i ovu mapu: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Austria_hungary_1911.jpg Te dve su najtačnije koje se mogu naći na netu). PANONIAN (talk) 18:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Aman čoveče, mape su ti netačne, pogotovo ove u vezi Bosne i Vojvodine (da i ne pominjemo to što je mapa Vojvodine bez Srema smešna). I na kakvom si popisu bazirao podatke kad su po popisu iz 1910 u Somboru većina bili Srbi a u Bečeju Mađari, a ti si nacrtao obrnuto? - a to je samo jedan primer, Bosnu bi bilo bolje da i ne analiziram. PANONIAN (talk) 18:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Vidi, ovo ti je moj predlog:

  • 1. Da napraviš mapu Bosne iz 1910 sa ucrtanim granicama distrikta i da onda označiš u kom je distriktu koja verska zajednica bila najbrojnija.
  • 2. Da napraviš samo jednu mapu sa podacima iz 1910 na kojoj ćeš prikazati Srbe na području cele bivše Juge - nema potrebe da praviš nekoliko mapa umesto jedne. PANONIAN (talk) 13:23, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Vidim da si tu mapu BIH već napravio, ali mi deluje čudno - suviše malo Muslimana, suviše mnogo Hrvata... Pitaću K.Seferovica sta misli o tome. PANONIAN (talk) 13:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, ako se bošnjački korisnici slože sa mapom BIH iz 1910, onda se i ja slažem... I drugo, ne vidim zašto je bitno to što popisi nisu sprovedeni istovremeno na svim tim teritorijama - mislim da bi mapa cele bivše Jugoslavije (ili bar onih prostora naseljenih Srbima) imala mnogo više značaja. PANONIAN (talk) 23:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1910 map

I like it. Should probably provide a link to the 1910 census on the image description page, though. But other than that, it's good. —KingIvan 02:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Independent Kosovo

Don't you think on some level that it may be best if it's accepted? It will solve the issue once and for all. The "cancer of Kosovo" will at last be gone and Serbia will have learned its lesson; in future do what the Greeks and Turks do: encourage ethnic Greeks and Turks respectively to move to ethnically sensitive territories, in other words encourage ethnic Serbs to move to the Sandžak along the border with Bosnia, to Vojvodina along the border with Hungary etc, just to be on the safe side in future. Is it still too late for the government to sponsor a mass Serb migration to the Serb areas of Kosovo to boost the population by several thousand?--Domitius 11:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

If you go to Novi Pazar, you will se that you are not in Serbia, you are in Turkey.

So, I dont see any reason for you to move in there? Alkalada 11:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

There are large numbers of Greeks all over the former Soviet Union; for example the 12,703 Greeks the 1999 Kazakhstani census recorded really want to immigrate to Greece. The Greek government makes it easy for them to settle in ethnic minority zones much to the disgust of the ethnic minority leaders. Living in a Greek village is better than in economically devastated Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan etc from their point of view. As for the Serb Radical Party, if they do seize power, then they most likely, first and foremost, will begin a propaganda campaign in Srpska Krajina in Croatia and the Republika Srpska for secession. How Croatia and BiH plan to deal with this and the human rights implications could ruin their own accession prospects to the EU.--Domitius 11:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
There are no Serbs in Croatia? I'm just relying on the maps of Greater Serbia :) --Domitius 12:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like the case of the Greeks of Imbros and Tenedos.--Domitius 12:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Skanderbeg

I'm having problems on the Skanderbeg, sources on a Serbian mother are suppressed. Could you take a look at the talkpage please.--Domitius 13:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk page

You know, your talk page isn't a walk in the park either ;-). (I'm referring to the petition on your user page, of course). JHMM13 06:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] RE: MNE

Heh. I'm not so sure. Maybe it's the "Red Croatia" connection? :P --Thewanderer 19:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mapa (opet)

Treba da nacrtaš granice na Image:SrbiBalkan.gif PANONIAN (talk) 20:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Pa nacrtaj one granice po kojima si sekao male mape - dakle granice BIH, Hrvatske-Slavonije, Dalmacije, Banata-Bačke-Baranje, Srbije, Crne Gore, Kosovskog vilajeta... PANONIAN (talk) 21:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ваистину вaскрсе!

Thank you Pax, alithós anésti! That's a nicely written map, the problem is, I don't know where in the world it is? Where is Belgrade, where is Kosovo, where is Florina (there used to be Serbs there back in 1910) and so on. That arch shaped thing on the bottom is supposed to be the present-day northern borders of Albania, yes?--Domitius 21:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Alithós o Kyrios! (Truly the Lord [has risen]!) Thank you and Chronia Polla! ([May you live] Many Years!) Do you also have the customs of fireworks, lamb and red eggs? (I feel my cholesterol has risen too!) NikoSilver 11:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Particularly out of the blue questions

Hi! I had asked these of CrnaGora the other day, based on a few edits we each made, and got a partial answer in his next edit summary, but I'm still curious about the rest. I noticed you'd posted several comments on his page as well, and it seems you have a lot of discussions with people, so... that's why you've been targeted. I hope you don't mind! :) (And apologies in advance for my probably annoying and definitely woeful lack of knowledge about ... well, most of the world, really. It's pathetic. I'm trying to fix that.)

Why wouldn't House of Balšić be both WPMontenegro and WPSerbia, especially when the first line is "The House of Balšić was a Serbian medieval dynasty that ruled Zeta."? For that matter, where's that Serbian come from, since it seems the bio pages only mention being Montenegrin? And (I'm guessing) a grammar point, if the page is "House of Balšić", why's it become "under the House of Balša" (as in Đurađ II of Zeta)?

Also, I was curious where/what CrnaGora (and you too, apparently. Though judging by skimming through your talk page, are you actually from Montenegro, or just that background? Does the war refugee bit refer to the same thing for both of you?) is a war refugee from -- I've seen stuff about fighting nearly everywhere else, but I don't remember seeing any links to fighting taking place in Montenegro.

Hope you don't mind all the questions, and it'd be even better if you don't mind answering them, Bbik 06:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

That explanation makes perfect sense, thanks! It does, however, prompt another question. Since it looks like Montenegro didn't exist until 1516, just the various other-named principalities and areas and all, how are any of them really Montenegrin, either (the people, that is, not WP tagging since being the same area makes that obvious enough), rather than just Serbian/Zetan or some such? -Bbik 19:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Hehe, I wouldn't have asked if I weren't interested. :) I like history anyhow (as long as it's not at school to be followed by a test and all that nonsense), especially older history, and I'm sick of our history (way too many classes on exactly the same nothing), and between what little we learned of European history in those classes, and a little more from language classes... If I were to base my understanding of the world on that, there's the English speaking world (but Australia doesn't really matter, they're just there to provide fun accents), Western Europe (not including Scandinavia) and all the countries there, Eastern Europe aka Russia (which covers lots of Asia too, so at least it got that part right...) aka bad (Along the lines of "You're not exactly like us, we don't understand it, we don't want to try to understand it, so we'll just call it wrong anyhow." I think it's particularly stupid.), Japan, and vague blobs of land that make up the other continents. Oh, and Mexico, because Spanish is a good thing and should be allowed even if you don't learn/understand it, and even if we (the country) don't actually want those people to be here, but nothing will be done about any of it anyhow. Oh, and learning more than just English doesn't really matter -- sure, you have to sit through classes to pretend you're making an effort, but only for long enough to have a very basic and quickly forgettable understanding of the given language. I don't give our schools much credit. So anything in relation to the Balkans is something I haven't learned anything about, which makes it new, it's also something different (though I have yet to decide just how different), and learning anything about any of it around here, and especially about the languages, is essentially impossible. And at least a few of our family traditions came from around there (Romanian/Greek rather than Slavic, but apparently they're more Orthodox-specific than area-specific), and I'm just generally curious anyhow, so... Yeah, I'm interested. I'll probably have more questions in a bit, too distracted with fighting my computer to process much else right now. Gotta love when technology "knows" what you want it to (not) do. -Bbik 02:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I hate when things like that happen. Whenever you get to it, I'm up for reading whatever it was, whichever sub-section it was in response to. And it's really more an interest in cultures, but history helps explain a lot of that. If it were a history-based interest, then it'd require far more knowledge of political machinations than I have, as it is, all I need is the very very basics to see how things are connected, leave it up to someone else to figure out why they're connected.
Oh, and yet another unrelated random comment, since I've noticed it a few times... I'm guessing you're trying to show formality/politeness by capitalizing "you" but since English doesn't have any sort of system for that, it doesn't actually do much, just looks sort of weird. The lack of levels there (Wow, I don't even know what it's called. You know what I mean though, right?) is (sort of) made up for by the rest of the words instead, and even if it's not, lowercase "you" isn't considered rude at all. And grammar aside, I don't mind things being informal anyhow (Besides which, if you're the one explaining to me, you with the extra knowledge should get the higher level than me who's still learning.) -- It's not like internet's terribly formal to start with, either. -Bbik 21:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Er... Bosniak and Bosniac don't both mean the same people, just different spelling? Well then. I guess I need to go look those differences up. (I haven't even finished reading your comment, either, I'll probably have more questions by the time I get through that and this c/k difference, so don't bother explaining it yet... Let me get you something a little more intelligent to work with first.) -Bbik 23:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, no, scratch that, I'm still confused. Bosniac(s) redirects to Bosniaks, Bosniak sends you to a disambig page for "anything related to Bosnia (region) or the current state Bosnia-Herzegovina and its inhabitants". I'm guessing you meant something to do with religion differences, Muslim vs Christian, but which is which?
And a probably really stupid, much too broad question, but... What are the differences between Serbs and Croats, anyhow? It looks to me like the language is, for all intents and purposes, the same, just different dialects, and everything else I've come across seems to have, at most, incredibly minor little differences, so what were they arguing over for assimilation, anyhow? Was it really so much an assimilation issue, or just a major power struggle? -Bbik 23:23, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Ok, so what did you actually mean by the four "grand Balkan nations" - Croats, Serbs, Albanians and Bosniaks ... countless "lesser Balkan nations", i.e. Bosniacs, [etc]? How are Bosnia(c/k)s both greater and lesser?
Carasevans - If they were over in the Romanian Banat, with Serbia between them and Croatia (whichever forms each were in at the time) why'd they become Croats? Did they move, too?
Why'd everyone convert from Orthodoxy to Catholicism, only to go back to Orthodoxy less than a couple hundred years later anyhow? (Is that answered in East-West Schism? I haven't read past the intro there, yet.) -Bbik 00:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

So just to make sure, the four are Serb, Croat, Albanian, and Bulgarian?
Religion, and only religion, is what was used to determine nationality? Was that for everyone? Has that happened elsewhere, too?
This part is where I got the Orthodox -> Catholic -> Orthodox from:
After 1054 and the Great Schism all Croats and relatively most Serbs became Catholic Christians. Over the time Serbs converted more and more to Eastern Orthodoxy until they "found God" in it and created a Serbian Orthodox Church in 1219.
Or was the Croat=Catholic and Serb=Orthodox split not that strong yet? I think there's probably some timeline confusion on my part, I just don't know where.
Oh, also, if religion is the only difference "at least today", what else did there used to be? -Bbik 02:17, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, if this Orthodoxy-Catholicism confusion is explained in East-West Schism, I didn't get it. That page just confused me more, too many names thrown around everywhere. Maybe I'll try re-reading it in a bit, see if I can get any more out of it. -Bbik 07:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
That makes a bit more sense than how I first understood it. So what religion was everyone before the Schism? Still Christian, just not specifically Catholic, or?
Also, is there any hope for my question just below this, or should I see if I can find someone else who might be able to check? -Bbik 08:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Ah, that's what the by June was for. Wasn't sure if you meant to not expect any response at all until then (as an exaggeration, obviously, since you have been responding!). At any rate, that's fine, I'm in no real rush at this point and should really be doing other stuff than Wiki-editting, but required work is no fun! -Bbik 20:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Different topic, equally random

Hey Pax, how much free time do you have? Part of my little project needs sources, and I'm having a horrid time finding them. It's apparently from Aleksandar Deroko, "Srednjevekovni gradovi u Srbiji, Crnoj Gori i Makedoniji", Belgrade 1950 and Aleksandar Deroko, "Medieval Castles on the Danube", Belgrade 1964 (see the Notes section) but... I have no way to check either, both because one's obviously Serbian and even if the other isn't, I'm sure it's not in any library around here. Any chance you have access to either of them, have the time, and wouldn't mind seeing if you could find something that would confirm the information? -Bbik 06:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Er... well, thanks for the barnstar! But what'd I do for this one? (I'm not quite sure what to make of a collection starting, based solely on the one page I've done major work on. For that matter, I'm not really used to having more than maybe one person notice if I do anything, either...) -Bbik 23:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Heh, not your fault, it's not like I've made it obvious or anything. Nor do I plan to, either, since all things considered, it really doesn't matter online. -Bbik 01:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you

I must say I am pleased with your editing style and preference. Balkantropolis 07:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wait, wait

Mihailo has been promoting Montenegrin church and language during recent years... I find it hard to believe that was his statement, so I would appreciate you showing me where you had found it... :) Yes, Petrovic descendants have been lobbying for independence and recognition of MOC, however weird that may sound to you. However, do you really think that after this many centuries Crnojevics know who the real descendants of Stefan, Ivavn and Djuradj were? Go to Rijeka Crnojevica, and you'll see what people think there. ;) Anyway, about the controversial issues - it is quite definitive that language will be Montenegrin, Serbian, with same flag and coat of arms, and the same anthem (shortened for two Drljevic's stanzas) and there are no royal/feudal/whatever descendant wannabes that can change that, or affect it anyhow. Sideshow Bob 22:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I know, but all I am saying is that even if he is from Crnojevic bratstvo, there is probably no actual bloodline connection between him and those Montenegrin rulers. And his opinion is as important to me as an opinion of any other Montenegrin citizen, since he has no more significance or authority than you or me. You didn't say where you read/heard Mihailo's statement against Montenegrin language... Also, I've just read that MOC is trying to take over the monasteries in Montenegro currently occupied by SOC, since they claim they are rightful owners of all the monasteries in Montenegro built before 1918, and all built by the Montenegrin govt. after that year(they have been announcing that for a considerable time now, but it seems like they are preparing to go to offensive finally). I wonder how will the Govt. react to this eventually happening, and what the consequences could be... BTW, CrnaGora has retired(again), so I think I am now officially "Last of the Mohicans"..I mean, Montenegrins. :) Cheers.Sideshow Bob 00:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, he is still actively contributing, as I expected... :) I don't know who Milan Tesevic is, and Momisan rarely edits anymore. I don't consider you Montenegrin, because there is a lot more to being Montenegrin than having some Montenegrin heritage. I don't know about your nationality (Serb is my guess), but some people think of that as a personal thing, so I won't ask ya that... About the church, chetnik-in-disguise Filip "Rrrrrr" Vujanović has announced the Govt. will protect the rightful owners of the churches, obviously referring to political-religious organisation SOC and her satelite in Montenegro. Btw, did you know that, since Patriarch Pavle is getting veeery old, there are already internal fights amongst the potential pretenders to the title. What I find interesting is that two most mentioned names are Risto Radovic (you know my opinion about him) and Pahomije, never convicted pedofile and child molester... Also, Risto has allegedly threatened that, if he is not elected, he will separate his Metropolitanate and seek autocephalocy. Crazy Balkans... Sideshow Bob 04:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

______________________________________________________________________________

You don't have to be adherent to MOC to be Montenegrin, of course... I am not adherent of any church, since I'm an atheist("Постоје само двије религије - чоек и нечоек" М. Миљанов:). But, I strongly dislike SOC because of its continuous anti-Montenegrin actions throughout the history. Amfilohije a.k.a. Risto Sotona is well known as a leader in such activities. I see him as an ultra-right wing politician more than a clergyman. It suits him better considering his political beliefs... ;) I am glad DPS is losing its popularity... If I could choose a new Govt. I would make it out of PZP and LP. But, since that's obviously unrealistic, I could handle their coalition with SDP and SNP. But, I would never vote for NS or DSS regardless of who their coalition partners are - some lines can not be crossed. Voting for people who hate anything Montenegrin, including the very country they live in, can bring no good. Lovćen guards were set up in the 90's to protect Njegoš mausoleum from an overtaking, or even devastation, announced by ultra-Serb forces. And yes, they are somehow connected to Brković and promoted in CKL(I'm not sure if they publish it anymore...). Anyway, their cause was pretty righteous in my opinion, although I am not as informed of their more recent activities. Sideshow Bob 18:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? :) What's wrong with a party led by Peco Popović, the most clueless and dumbest politician (konkurencija je velika, ali pri vrhu je neđe sigurno), and whose political activism is fueled by the same motives as the ones of SNS leaders? I could count up many wrong things about that, but I'm having trouble seeing anything positive there...

I am currently looking at the draft of the Constitution, and some of NS amendments are(I don't feel like translating this, so I'll write in Montenegrin, if you understand it :)

  • Preambula: "...polazeći od državotvorne tradicije Crnogorskog, odnosno Srpskog naroda"...
  • Član 4: tri zastave(?!), od kojih su "narodna" i državna trobojke, a "predśednička" crvena sa zlatnim grbom. Himna "Ubavoj nam Crnoj Gori"
  • Član 12: Zvanični jezik "srpski ijekavskog izgovora"
  • Član 13: Imaju isti amandman kao Srpska lista (po crkvenom pitanju), što dovoljno govori...
  • Član 14: Pazi koju rečenicu oće izbacit - "Crna Gora ne može stupiti u savez sa drugom državom kojim gubi nezavisnost i puni međunarodni subjektivitet".

itd.


Anyway, it was SPC activism in Montenegro that I was talking about, not patriarch Pavle's IQ...Although I'm sure he's well aware, if not standing behind Risto's political activism throughout past years. Ultra-Serb forces I was talking about were SNS activists and followers, backed by Risto Radović and his church. Their goal was to tear down Njegoš's mausoleum on Lovćen (which was, coincidentially enough, built by a Croat, Ivan Meštrović) and build a chapel which would be under SPC's control. Apparently, Risto has some affection towards marking mountain tops with his "churches"- just remember the so called church(made of metal) that he put on top of Rumija with a Serbian military helicopter... He did a similar thing on Bjelasica, too. Sideshow Bob 00:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Study

A bit like yourself I have many 'balls in the air', but my area right now is Transitional Law for International Dispute Settlement'. Buffadren 13:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wow!

Geez, did you know about that? This is a medieval church in Donja Kamenica in eastern Serbia, some 10 km west of the border with Bulgaria. It was built most likely in the 14th century, either by Michael Shishman of Bulgaria, by his son Michael or by someone named Michael Abogovich Angel (Mihajlo Abogović Angel?), as it seems a Serbian noble. At the time, the church was part of the diocese of the Patriarch of Tarnovo.

Looking from up front, it's like a Transylvanian or Hungarian city gate or something with those spooky towers, and then you go round and see that characteristically Orthodox dome, and the brickwork is typically Orthodox. It's a total mystery... Plus, the frescoes are quite impressive too, take a look :)

BTW, if you've got some basic skills at "Macedonian", Slovenian and Russian, don't hesitate to add Bulgarian, I guarantee you've got some understanding of it :) Best, Todor→Bozhinov 18:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yes

Yes, Pax, thanks, it was brilliant. I think you may have wasted your time though, you know what "certain kinds of people" are like...--Domitius 18:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eurovision

Faddy is Scottish? Are you sure? Where do you know this from? Evlekis 19:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Your map is fantastic, but it needs a few things to stop the professional objectors getting it deleted from articles. Could you make a note on its page what info (which censuses) it's based on, and what the various shades represent (which percentage range (20-39%, 40-59% etc recimo), or which number range (25,000-49,999, 50,000-74,999 itd). Inače, great map :) --Methodius 13:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

One more thing, it would be nice if you could make a version with modern borders superimposed, as well as maybe wartime borders. Sorry ako smaram, but I don't know how...--Methodius 13:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Mislim da ne bi trebalo prikazivati moderne granice na toj mapi. Mapa je iz 1910, pa bi trebale biti i te granice, a pored toga, kad bi bile i moderne i istorijske granice, to bi totalno zbunilo čitaoce. PANONIAN (talk) 19:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Skontao

Skontao sam ja već ko je taj "Brazilac", samo se nadam da je dovoljno pametan da ne krši pravilo o 3 reverta i da ne pravi sockpuppete. :)) PANONIAN (talk) 18:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Inače mislim da je mapa SrbiBalkan.gif sada u principu dobra, ali i dalje postoji greška kod Sombora. Pogledaj mapu distrikta u Bačkoj: http://www.talmamedia.com/map/hhcounty/images/megyek1/bacsbod.gif i podatak o stanovništvu Sombora koji je imao srpsku većinu: http://www.talmamedia.com/php/district/district.php?county=B%E1cs-Bodrog PANONIAN (talk) 18:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Montenegrin flag

Why are you putting a tricolor flag on the articles about battles in times before that flag was even introduced in Montenegro(in 1910)? The red stag was a royal standard for Prince Danilo, and king Nikola util the Kingdom was proclaimed, and the battles were fought under that flag(and krstaš barjak too). Sideshow Bob 21:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't answer my question, since the tricolour was not a traditional Petrovic flag. For example have you seen Danilo's official flag?(that ugly purple one:) I am sure that tricolour was not used before the Kingdom. Please, prove me wrong ;)... Sideshow Bob 21:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

About the declaration: I just translated it to the true Montenegrin language, because the one official in Montenegro can't really classify as the true Montenegrin language...Sideshow Bob 21:34, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zeta

You are kidding me, right? I'll just list some reasons why I believe so...

  • There is a biiig difference between medieval state of Zeta, and today Zeta region in Montenegro
  • This is not Zeta anthem, but an anthem of some sort of pro-Serb society from Zeta
  • Using that analogy, should I put Jevrem Brkovic's poems into Duklja legacy???After all, he is a Dukljanin...
  • Adding this to the article is more provocative than of any use.

Cheers... Sideshow Bob 23:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You won't mind a little language switch, would ya ;)
Ovako...SNS i organizacije/strančice njima bliske po ideologiji najavljivali su takav potez tokom prvih godina 21. vijeka... 2004. i 2005. Dobrilo Dedeić (simpatična slučajnost sa prezimenom :) je izašao u javnost sa tom idejom. U svrhu branjenja mauzoleja, organizovane su Lovćenske straže, da im ne dozvole pristup Jezerskom vrhu. Tada je SNS najavio da će "uskoro na Lovćen slećet i bit osvještana nova Njegoševa kapela(vjerovatno bi je od lima napravili, ka onu kantu što su na Rumiju stavili). Nakon toga došlo je do medijskog sukoba ekstremnih Crnogoraca(DANU, Brković) i Srba(SNS, SPC, D.Dedeić), koji se završio na uvredama s obje strane, i takođe obostranim zahtjevima ombudsmanu Šefku Crnovršaninu da se organizacijama suprotne strane zabrani djelovanje(prvo je SNS tražio zabranu DANU, Crnogorskog Književnog Lista i Lovćenskih straža, da bi Jevrem odgovorio zahjtevom za ukidanje SNS, nazivajući ih fašističkom strankom). Sve se, međutim, završilo na (teškim) riječima, a SNS i Risto su svoji pažnju okrenuli na druge planine - vjerujem da si upoznat s tim kako su nagrdili vrhove Rumije i Bjelasice sa svojim letećim metalnim osvještanim kontejnerima. Sideshow Bob 21:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok then, I'll stick to English... Yes, Lovćen guards were formed a lot before(I'm not sure, but sometimes during the 90's), but as in 2004 and 2005 the SNS led initiative grew much stronger, Guards' existence was only publically emphasized in last couple of years, when this conflict occured. Sideshow Bob 22:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear PaxEquilibrium, Thank you for your message & information about editing. Much appreciated. No need to respond. Kind regards, Elfelix P.S. On the other hand, was this the right way to reply to your message? If not please tell me how.

[edit] You got the wrong one.

Mistake, I suppose? —Nightstallion (?) 14:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

BTW... Might be of interest to you. It seems our Chancellor is trying to help... —Nightstallion (?) 16:10, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Trying to get it right

I can't think of how to add on at the last end post, other than by editing the last post and then writing my own. It doesn't seem right, but maybe it is. Elfelix 19:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Question

RfC's can take a while, but it's pretty rare to see an RfC go without any activity for almost a month. However, I'm sure this is due to the fact that Emir Arwen has not edited since March 12, and without his involvement, the RfC cannot proceed. Hope that answers your question. Nishkid64 20:13, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No problemo

Yo. --HarisM 21:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] 2+ questions

Thank you for your help. 1. How do I access accents for foreign names, titles, etc.? I see the field of them at the bottom of the edit page, but don't know how to get one to move it into position. 2. How do I go about trying to change the title of a stub I would like to work on? Does it take a group consensus? If so, how do I communicate with the group? I've tried to find the answers to these questions, but without success. Best regards, Elfelix 21:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kingdom of Montenegro

Why did you change the flags around??? You don't have to reply to my talk page, but explain it on Kingdom of Montenegro talk. And, for God's sake, archive this talk page.. :) Sideshow Bob 02:04, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll reply here, since you have more than enough sections here as it is... :) I was just busy researching for Podgorica Assembly/Zelenaši/Krsto Z. Popović articles to answer right away.
DSS is actually a minor fraction of SNS that seceeded from the party because of the internal conflict(something like Živković's LPCG did in the LSCG). Anyway, DSS is led by Ranko Kadić, a politician quite similar to the leaders of SNS(let's say he's a little less extreme than SNS but more extreme than NS).
NS used to be Montenegrin, under Novak Kilibarda, amongst others, but always quite moderate. Nowadays they are pretty different(pro-Serb), but you look and decide for yourself... I've just noticed a very good PDF file about Montenegrin flags, coats of arms and anthems, even though a flag part is a little bit biased, and "Hymn to Saint Sava" has been inserted for some reason...
Also, I haven't heard of them breaking up the coalition, but I think that might be a good thing as SNP will move away from the conservative pro-Serb parties, and be more like, maybe, PZP. :) Sideshow Bob 17:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
You're right, but Kilibarda is one of those people who went all the way from being extreme Serb nationalist to being equally extreme Montenegrin nationalist...And NS follows (declaratively) the tradition of a party of Bjelaši(whites), with the same name, that was founded in 1909(I think). Kilibarda has made it more moderate during his last few years in the party(as his personal views switched), but under the leadership of Dragan Šoć and Peco Popović(current leader) they have changed back to the way they are now. Sideshow Bob 17:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
NSS is the party of Momir Bulatovic, left-oriented member of Serb List... I will always remember them as a party that suffered the most pathetic defeat at the local elections. A couple of years ago, at the local elections in Tivat, they were one of the independent competitors. And, with 32 candidates for the city council, they received a total of 32 votes... :) I still find it hard to believe that not even one wife, a parent, sibling or a cousin voted for them.
DSJ was created just recently by Zoran Zizic, who was kicked out of SNP, along with some other people(he was the leader of the more extreme fraction in the party). It is now a part of Serb List too, and quite irrelevant to the Montenegrin politics. Talking about parties like these, there is also SSR(Stranka Srpskih Radikala)-name says it all(also a minor minor party:)
BTW, did you hear about Andrija mandic(SNS leader) being pronounced a Chetnik duke(vojvoda)? :) Even an SNP official made a joke about that in a statement to the press... Sideshow Bob 18:08, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


Klubaši and Bjelaši are basically the same, although klubaši were a little more disgraceful to Montenegro and Montenegrins. Their only purpose was to undermine King Nikola's authority, and provide a solid ground for Podgoricka Skupstina, about a decade following their creation. In WWI klubaši were helping out Austria-Hungary, I think that says enough about their political identity...And they weren't the only political party back then, because shortly thereafter king Nikola formed a political party to confront them. His party members were known as pravaši. Sideshow Bob 18:17, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

No, not Serbs as the people but the politicians representing are by default nationalist conservatives.(evil is a too harsh word). Also, did I ever say Montenegro was like Kosovo or Croatia? Especially regarding Kosovo, differences are huge, including the fact that we are a country, and they are not. I hope it will stay that way, although things are not looking that great at the moment. Sideshow Bob 19:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

I see you noticed my little historical parallel...Well the DPS seems to be cooling off a bit too now, given that Vujanović said the SOC would be defended from attack, and Marović said there should be one church, and pointed out one is recognised and the other isn't. He also said the language should be called crnogorsko-srpski which is quite funny really, because we'll have another to add to the list: Serbo-Croat, Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Bosniak, Montenegrin, Serbo-Montenegrin etc ad infinitum et ad nauseam. Still, it's a compromise of sorts.--Methodius 13:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, duh. Though the inhabitants of Montenegro don't seem to get it. 17 years of shit under a leader who was both a Serbian nationalist and an anti-Serb Montenegrin nationalist, as well as a member of the old kleptocracy (Communists), and somehow they keep sticking with him. I guess he used Serbia as a scapegoat quite effectively, but even so, it's impressive. In fact, the Communists were never deposed down in CG - they rebranded and recently celebrated 60 years in power. Still, some of my relatives in Serbia support Milo, but I really cannot see the attraction...--Methodius 13:59, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

"Better list them. I believe there were around 150,000 Serbs back then. Today there are 130,000 or as low as 120,000 today (but the census was conducted in 2002). It wouldn't be proper to simple exclude them all. --PaxEquilibrium 20:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)"

Izvini ali nisam skontao na šta se odnosi ova tvoja poruka :) --Methodius 21:52, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Ипак јесам. Да, треба их укључити, али не знам за поуздане изворе.--Methodius 21:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Principality is the word for a state headed by a prince. Princedom is (I presume) some awful Americanism which I first heard yesterday. I decided to check whether it even exists, and my 7,500 page Shorter OED says no. За оно друго (Зета итд), нисам баш сигуран шта си хтео да кажеш?--Methodius 10:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The meaning is exactly the same inasmuch the word "princedom" exists at all. Што не кажеш јасно и конкретно (на "нашем" ако треба) на шта мислиш, јер један од ова два термина не постоји, а имао би исто значење и да постоји на енглеском језику.--Methodius 22:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

See here and here. As far as I've ever heard either used, princedom's mostly just another word if principality gets repetitious, or in some cases as dumbing down when people can't figure out what a principality is (or the ever annoying mental block when you can't think of the word). I'd work on the basis of sticking with principality. Hope that helps somehow, since I only skimmed the discussion. -Bbik 23:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Djukanovic always manages to be on the side of the lesser evil somehow...--Methodius 13:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Momir Bulatović was a better man than Đukanović IMHO (but a less able politician), who's managed to stay on the right of the electorate and "retired" (who belives that?) on his own terms (a rare feat for a politician). You know, it's quite clever how Đukanović engineered this schizophrenic situation in Montenegro. I sometimes suspect that he "ordered" the results of the 2003 census to create a "divide et impera" set-up. I agree Medojević is probably the future, but it's slightly annoying that he tries to have his cake and eat it on "Serbian issue", but then so does Montenegro as a whole...It'll be interesting to see the results of the next census down there...and in Bosnia for that matter. BTW, how old are you?--Methodius 14:26, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

He distanced himself, but because he is an able politician, not because he is a good man. Milosevic was a Bad Man, but not because he was a "Greater Serbian nationalist" etc. Not that I support Bulatovic, but I do have sympathies with him. "Serbian issue" is the fact that Montenegro is divided down the middle on relations with Serbia, on its heritige (a little less), on its language and religion (those two not so much). Medojevic seems to want "jare i pare". :) The Muslim politicians are as usual playing a political game with Bosnia. A census doesn't legitimise anything, it just states facts. BiH's population is not known - it could be 3.5 million, it could be 4.5 million. Ridiculous sitaution! But no, they must politicise everything. And even there their logic is fallacious. By their logic, a new census would justify ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Neretva valley, Sarajevo, Krajina (I know they returned in large parts, but not all), and the rest of BiH. Can you imagine how much it annoys a statistics/map nerd! :) I notice you tactfully avoided the age question :) --Methodius 15:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response

All award recipients deserved an award for their objective contribution to the Srebrenica massacre article. None of them spread any ethnic hatred and I was careful enough to monitor their discussions over a period of at least 2 months before deciding to award them. Mozart Amadeus Wolfgang 19:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Montenegrins

That it's all incredibly confused and that confusion allows for both easier-bent boundaries (cultural, geographical, everything) and fanatically rigid boundaries, which are then combined to blow everything out of proportion and make it all worse, in many (if not all) cases purely in an attempt for one "side" or another to get more power/control.

As for a real answer though... I don't know. I still don't feel like I know enough to make a valid judgment of anything. However, (for the Balkans in general) that history does explain where the nationalism and corresponding modern fighting about whether there should be independent countries or not comes from (Though again, still blown out of proportion. What little I've read/skimmed on here, POV aside, sounds like the escalation that's happened various times is more because of stupidity -- on all sides -- than anything else.).

I really can't understand why people are SO up-tight about what their background is, though. But then, that's coming from me, and if I were even the least bit concerned, rather than simply amused, I'd have bigger issues than any of you over there, not to mention nearly everyone else in this country with their equally tangled ancestries. Now, that's not to say that you should just ignore your past, I still definitely feel that you should learn about whatever your background is, but not then turn around and fight about it. Perhaps uninformed is better then, if fighting is the result of information. Not that I advocate lack of education or that anything can be done to change what's already long past...

Also, sorry for the slow response. I've been dashing in circles since I woke up, making what minor edits I can, but you deserve a bit more than a minor, distracted response. Especially considering the number of lengthy answers you've given me! I'm still not sure this is such a great answer, though, so if I didn't hit on what you were hoping, let me know, and I'll see what more I can come up with.

And while I'm at it, does "Zeta" mean anything? I know it's a Greek letter and all, but... if it changed to Crna Gora/Montenegro/etc for the black mountain appearance, where'd Zeta come from? For that matter, Crnoje/Crnojević, is that "black [something]", too? -Bbik 04:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

So for comparison's sake, I'm guessing medieval Serbia might've been around the size of New England at some point, and probably quite a bit smaller the rest of the time, right? Where were all those other Montenegros? Having that many in such a small area has to have been confusing, for those who actually travelled at all (which I realize was probably a very small number so mostly irrelevant anyhow). -Bbik 02:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I have a bad habit of not making sense. In the very last sentence, I was thinking how close at least a few of the Montenegros must've been (since you mentioned there were around 12 of them at some point), and having places with the same name near each other seems like it would be really confusing. However, I don't imagine people travelled much in the Middle Ages, and when you don't travel, names of other places aren't as important, so multiple places having the same name probably wasn't that confusing after all (hence making the original thought that it'd be confusing irrelevant). "Where were all those other Montenegros?" was mostly a rhetorical question -- I know there are plenty of repeated town names around here, but I can't think of any that are repeated quite THAT much, so I was curious just how close they actually were (are?).
Though at the same time, I don't think I'd realized that Serbia was ever quite that large. If those ~12 Montenegros were when Serbia was the whole peninsula, rather than just the New England-ish sized area, having that many isn't quite so... incredible... after all.
Does that make it any clearer? If not, let me know, and I'll try again. -Bbik 03:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Croats in Macedonia

Excellent. Do you think you can wikify a link for me on my discussion page, I would love to see it. I found something from the Makedonski popis 2002 but I don't know that language (with its terminologies and phrases) 100%. I mean, you don't have to speak the language to spot the ethnicities and their percentages but it would be interesting to see this drop in Croat numbers there. I'd also be interested to know what has happened to those who were delcalred Croats in 1994, they can't have left, so what are they now? Balkantropolis 06:18, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Template

Your suggestions and comments regarding Template:Serbian Orthodox Church would be very welcome. :) --Methodius 09:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UN Advice

Hi PE, there is a debate on the UN page regarding Abhazia and its right to speak at the UN. A section was included and now there is debate there. Please take a look Buffadren 09:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Critikal1

Yes, I agree, his edits are very suspicious, though only most of them. --CrnaGora 23:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Montenegrin Constitution

Yes, I did hear about the language in the constitution. "MonteSerbian" isn't a bad name for the new official language of Montenegro, and yes, I agree with you with it being proclaimed as the official langauge of Montenegro. This helps Serb opponents of the Montenegrin language and those who want the Montenegrin language to be the official language of Montenegro settle out their differences, finally.

I don't like Medojević's proposal, unlike you, because Montenegro is a republic, just like Albania, Croatia, Serbia, Slovenia, France and Macedonia are, and not a "dictatorship" under the leadership of Đukanović, like you believe it is. But hey, we all have different beliefs, don't expect everyone to agree with you. --CrnaGora 23:26, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MOC

Oh yes they tried it... And Milo's special police units stopped them to succeed in what they planned. At least now it is clear who has this Government's support and protection...I'll get more detailed information within hours, bu surely these are not the best days for Montenegro(I don't know if you have heard of recent nationalist incidents at the football matches). And also, LPCG supporting Kosovo independence? I don't think so... Sideshow Bob 22:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Still there is a time hole in your story...Even Petar I was not beatified by the Serbian patriarch, and after him vladikas during reigns of his three succesors(Petar II, Knjaz Danilo and King Nikola) were apparently the leaders of an autocephalous church... Which, in my count, is a little bit more than 30 years of autocephalocy, as you claimed. Sideshow Bob 15:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh, sorry, I did not realise that being a Serb nationalist is a neccessary quality for a high position ic the church. Unfortunately, it appears that is the standard for the present day cannonical "Metropolitans"(referring primarily to Amfilohije, although he is as radical politically(he attender Serb Radical Party) - btw, I don't dispute his authority as a Serbian patriarch, but obviously some church leaders don't quite understand the princliple of separation of church and state...
And, yes, you did prove your point. Partially... :) Cheers. Sideshow Bob 16:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo & Republika Srpska

Republika Srpska probably has 90% Serb majority, you know why? Because you committed genocide, mass massacres, and large scale ethnic cleansings of Bosniaks from the territory your armed forces controlled. There is no comparison between Republika Srpska and Kosovo. Bosniak 01:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serbian user.

Sorry for not replying earlier. I was pretty busy. Yes, everything is becoming more divided in the former Yugoslav republics, even smaller institutions, such as the Islamic societies. I have some problems with "User:Samerac" a Serbian user. He keeps on putting "Flag of Serbia" for all Bosnian Serb soccer coaches. Check my "contributions" and you'll see what I am talking about. All of them were born in BiH, grew up in BiH, and still live in BiH, they can be Serb (I have no problem with that) but I'd say they are definitely not Serbian, the flag should be removed. I left a message, and hopefully he will reply. Thanks a lot and sorry for not replying earlier. Vseferović 21:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

This is strange. Most Christian Montegrins, here is Chicago, have differing viewpoints. I did not expect a split between the churches. Are there many differences? Vseferović 22:34, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, I do not know much about the incident, but I looked it up on the internet. There are a lot of Serbs in Montenegro, that's why I thought that a split might not actually occur. However, 56% voted for independence, so it is most likely the pro-independence supporters voting for the Montenegrin church. Did the Montenegrin church ever exist? Vseferović 23:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vseferović

Can you to tell Vseferović to write in english and not in another language when commenting to me in "talk". I don't know if he is offending me or not. Bosanac-007 02:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

You can tell me yourself. I am not offending you and please refrain from deleting images. Most of your images are not "pd-self". Such as the coat of arms of Banja Luka. Vseferović 04:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I am not deleating pictures. Bosanac-007 04:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Your first edit to Dubica deleted the mosque...had I not reacted it would not have been there. Vseferović 04:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
"Your first edit to Dubica " No I was not deleting it. I was removing it from tourism section and putting it in the gallery section which you saw I did.
"not in another language"...all your edits concern Bosnia and ex-yu, I wonder what language I am speaking? Vseferović 04:45, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Just a heads up, most of your images will be deleted since the copyright policy of Wikipedia does not allow images found on other sites. I doubted that you took the images since you added several churches from various towns. I do not mind the churches, but the forcing of propaganda and 'stealing' from other websites is not permitted. I had to go through the same procedure when I started. Many of my images were deleted. This is where you got your images from [16] and [17] etc. Wikipedia does not work this way. Especially claiming that it is your work Thank you. Vseferović 04:55, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

I do try to be neutral, but like all people, we are fitted with feelings and preferences and it gets in the way at times. You can be specific because you are only asking a question. What did I call who? (I will tell you if I kno what you mean, give the link perhaps and I'll explain). Balkantropolis 05:26, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Checkuser

I would do a "checkuser" on User:Semberac, User:Inter-milano, and User:Bosanac-007. Their edits and the types of pictures uploaded on wiki are similar; resemble similar editing. Both Semberac and Bosanac-007 clear their discussion pages even after they are told not to. They refuse to talk back to "you". Also the edits of Semberac, inter-Milano, and Bosanac-007 are almost identical since they try to revert back to the use of the flag of Serbia for the Bosnian coaches issue we had. I am pretty sure that one of them is a sockpuppet of Semberac, if not both. Also provocation has been seen from all three. I do not know how much, but I think that "Bosanac-007" should be blocked for this Nothing too big, but a user should not change another's user page. Bosanac-007 also did not/refused to talk to me. He uploaded three pictures of the same thing. All of his images, he claims are Pd-self" when I clearly found links to disprove him. This if for the sake of following Wikipedia Policy. That is why his images will be delted. Thanks, tell me what you think and what should I do. Vseferović 06:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

They all place "PD-self" for all uploaded images. Also all three add copyrighted images of churches. I think that they are the same person. 99.9% sure. Thanks, Vseferović 06:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
BTW, they edit at the same times too. User:Semberac has caused many problems to other users. Users like you and I do not admire users who do not cooperate. Respected User:Godofjustice has tried speaking to him, but all Semberac does (as do the other three) is erase comments/suggestions. Vseferović 06:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems Vseferović is trying to spread propaganda. I have not caused problems to users. Regarding to User:Godofjustice the issue was solved so I don't know what your talking about. It looks like Vseferović just wants to create trouble for me. Basically it's a smear campaign by Vseferović. "semberac" 06:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
You will be checked for a "Checkuser". If I can say for myself, I am well respected user from all three ethnicities. Look at your edits, you get into disputes with everyone. Vseferović 06:47, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Wat? disputes with everyone? No I don't. Stop the smear campaign. Anyway there are always arguments/disagreements in wikipedia. That's why users talk about it and find a solution. "semberac" 07:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History of Croatia category

If the territory of those medieval countries spread over the territory of todays Republic of Croatia, than it belongs to this category. Am I wrong?
BTW, I've seen that you've already removed that categorization;I don't know why have you asked, if you're anyway doing things according to your own will (case with "Principality of Zeta"). Kubura 17:50, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Duklja didn't??? Kubura 18:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Duke Bodin. Kubura 18:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

would really be a few square miles at the south and around Dubrovnik enough to fulfill the requirements for the category (history of Croatia). What????
What does that mean?? That because "it's only few sq miles"...
So? So what? What do you want to say by that?
That because it's only "few sq miles", it doesn't concern Croatia?? It DOES. Very. In those "few sq miles", Croats are the only autochtonous people there. These areas are purely Croat-inhabited. Croats live there. Croats have their ancestral homes there. Villages. Cities. Fields, meadows.
If even a square centimeter of an country is part of certain category, than it IS a part of it. Kubura 00:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the "History of Croatia" and "History of Serbia" categories on the History of Bosnia and Herzegovina (958–1463) article, but I get what you want to say. --PaxEquilibrium 14:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Good remark. Kubura 14:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Churches

Now I see that the split was inevitable due to Montenegrin independence. So now there would be three different types of religions (not types orthodoxy is the same), but variants. Islam, the Serbian and Montenegrin Churches. Like we talked about earlier, Yugoslavia keeps getting smaller and smaller. One of my good friends "Denis" that I met online (through wiki, but he is not an editor) is a yugo-nostalgic person. He operates the site yugomix.com Anyways, I do not think that Yugoslavia can ever join back again. This is evident through the splits in Islam and Orthodoxy. (Sorry I went off tangent). Vseferović 20:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

So the tensions are that great. Now I understand, the MOC wants to take over most (every?) orthodox church in Montenegro. The Serbs and I bet Serbians are against this. True, it seems that "bloodshed" will be the resulting factor. Do you think, besides the fact that CG got its independence, that this is necessary. This is similar to the language dispute (Serbian - Montenegrin). Vseferović 21:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] missing entries

PaxEquilibrium, Last night I added to the page "List of Islamic Scholars" at the subheading "Orientalists/NonMuslims", but today the lastest entries seem to have disappeared. I had made sure (as far as I know) that my additions were "accepted" and "posted" last night, so it could be someone else came and edited the site--that would be the first time this has happened in my experience at Wikipedia. So, how can I find out: (1) if I did make some mistake, or (2) if someone else came and edited the page this morning? I have heard about the history being kept of the page, so maybe I can try to go through those pages to see if I made a mistake, or what. But maybe I am not permitted to rummage in the history files? I thank you for your help. I don't want to request assistance more than I absolutely require some help. Frankly, I am unclear as to the boundaries of my probing and imputing. I am not impatient, but can wait and see how it works out. In the meantime, I will continue to research Wikipedia for techniques and procedures I can use, and for its regulations. Thanks again. Regards. Elfelix 21:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hi Pac

hi Pac, I answered your question here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bosniak#OK.2C_look Bosniak 00:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pomozi

Kolega, pomozi oko članka Croatia. User Medule ubacuje POV [18] zajedno sa svojim sockpuppetom Serboman (i cijeli slučaj sam prijavio [19]), no mene muči 3RR. Ako možeš pružit ruku, super. Znam da si nepristran, i zato baš tebe pitam da se uključiš. Pozdrav. -- xompanthy 17:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all I am not Serboman. Second for time being I stopped war on Ljudevit Posavski until write good explanation. I hope you will see that my edit on croatia is in good faith to prevent article to be POV.--Medule 18:51, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Compromise

I honestly like your compromise. But! The article can not say "hundreds of thousands" until that fact has been cited. I disagree with that figure myself, but if you can find a credible source (and you know what I mean by that) to back it up, I will gladly agree. Truly I will. Until then, I must insist that the article continue to say "many" (yes, it vague, but it's the best we got). Facts are facts, and let's not play with words. "Hundreds of thousands" is pure POV until it's backed up. It's Medule's opinion, and only that, until we can see some proof. -- xompanthy 21:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

On a side note... you can use the RfC for that? I though that was used in article improvement. Kinda like Internet RFC's. Guess I should have taken a look at WP:RfC. Huh... you learn a new thing everyday... thanks for the input.

BTW, make that change regarding "many". WP:NOR and WP:SOURCE demand it. I can't, I'm still under 3RR. Cheers. -- xompanthy 22:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I am speechless. That many? 500 000? HOW? That sounds insane. It can't be that much... we're there even that many Serbs in Croatia then? I... hm... I find myself... troubled... I take it all back. Leave it in. Proof is proof. I need to go and think about what I've been told all these years, and the people who told it...
You have my apologies... but Medule doesn't. You're nice, and you cited all your arguments with facts. For that, I thank you. Isn't WP:CIVIL lovely? I love that rule... -- xompanthy 22:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Don't forget to cite those sources in the article too. They need to be there. -- xompanthy 22:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
You have my complete and utter support. I was honestly thinking it was 50, 60 thousand at the maximum. It's way more than that.
We need more people like you. Why can't we all just be civil? And why oh why can't people from the former Yugoslavia be polite to each other anywhere, including here. Is it that difficult? Why can't we all converse the way you and I can? What is it? Is it genetic stupidity? Is that it? Some localized genetic phenomenon that forces us to act like retards to each other? Sensing the other nation's pheromones or something, and then reacting the way we do? I hate us. I hate ALL of us. We're bastards. Yes, we are... -- xompanthy 22:31, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
The 15 sentences maximum rule? You have my support on that one as well. Though I don't think it will work... We need to put in direct link to those other articles in the history section, and just delete everything anyone adds there. And add a notice right on the top of the talk page about it. But it won't work. It will just be a smaller battleground... it's hopeless... blah... -- xompanthy 22:35, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I honestly can't feel all that optimistic when I just found out my country killed 500 000 Serbs. And we still deny anything CLOSE to that figure. It bothers me... My father is Serbian. Anyway, I really like the history section now. Hopefully, no one can insert POV now (yeah, we wish... they'll find a way).
I just looked at the list of admins on Wikipedia, and I can't find your name on the list. If you're not, I'm nominating you for adminship and going to WP:RfA right now. I mean it. Would you accept the nomination? I'm not taking a no for an answer.
P.S. Joy is not the only one who needs to archive his talk page. Your's is 260kb big! Archive that! In multiple subpages even... -- xompanthy 23:02, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I honestly believe you are. You have more than 13 000 edits, you are fair, honest and neutral, at least in my experience. You've been here a while, so you've got the experience. I think you should be an admin. But hey, if you don't want to, I can't force you to accept the nom.
On a side note, do you know what's this guy Kubura talking about [20]? He's quite clearly talking about you. Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt you, the guy seems like he's one of those "they're out to get me" people... I'm just curious... -- xompanthy 16:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm just reading Afrika paprika's talk page, and I quite literally haven't laughed this hard in months! Ah... it makes me feel so warm and fuzzy inside knowing there are people like him in the world... yeah right... I'll print this out and start showing it to people I know, this material is pure gold. -- xompanthy 17:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MOC/SOC

Through skimming your talk page, I'd figured out there's at least some sort of division, but I hadn't heard about that specifically. Religion... well, it tends to turn me cynical even more than anything else. Doesn't even matter what religion. As far as I can tell they all promote peace, no killing, all that good stuff, and yet, there are "religious wars". And while I know that's hardly a new thing... it's as stupid now as ever. "'Let us in, please, or there will be bloodshed,' Mihailo told policemen as his supporters were being pushed back." Do people ever learn? I mean, sure, make yourself heard, have demonstrations, whatever, but that's just silly. Outright threats of violence, in this day an age, in an area that seems to still be quite so volatile? One would think the point is to stop further violence, not restart it all over. -Bbik 07:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 85.158.xxx.xxx

Hello. You've recently reverted some bad edits, such as here and here. But in the edit summaries, you said they were edits from Alkalada (talk · contribs), but this is wrong. Alkalada's IP range is the 84.217.xxx.xxx IPs, and it can be seen here that those IPs are coming from Sweden - which is where Alkalada lives. The 85.158.xxx.xxx IP range, which has been POVing lately, is none other than Emir Arven (talk · contribs). These IPs can be seen to be Emir's as their edits are in line with his POV, they follow the same edit warring of Emir, they share the same lovely trait of accusing me of sockpuppetry, and last but not least, as seen here, the 85.158.xxx.xxx IPs are coming from Sarajevo - which is where Emir Arven lives. I just thought you'd like to know. Good day. —KingIvan 07:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

You might like to see this - Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/85.158.32.6. He's at it again.

[edit] Constitution

Yeah, I know all that, there's been a .pdf version of that on Vijesti website for quite a while now. DPS has to go through with that proposal, in order to try keeping the remainder of their Montenegrin voters...

Btw, please take a look at the Montenegrin Orthodox Church article, User:Bože pravde has been making some disruptive edits. I don't want it to escalate into an edit war, but on the other hand, I don't see how I can stop his vandalism(if that is not vandalism, I don't know what is...) Sideshow Bob 21:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prezime Bjelica

Prezime Bjelica je cisto srpsko i potice iz Crne Gore, otud i Bjelica, a ne Belica, jer Srbi ne govore samo ekavicu, vec i jekavicu i ijekavicu, a o tome se da nauciti jos u osnovnoj skoli. To sto sad u Hrvatskoj postoje ljudi sa tim prezimenom pa im u domovnici pise "Hrvat pravoslavne vjeroispovesti" je nesto sasvim drugo i stvar je politike drzave Hrvatske. Bjelice su Srbi i to domovnica ne moze da promeni.

S postovanjem,

Ljiljana Bjelica

Hm... regarding my activity on wikipedia... I'm reading wikipedia an average of 2 hours a day, probably more. Anything I can find, I like broadening my horizons. Now, when I see something obviously broken (like a typo, or formatting, or vandalism), I fix it. I rarely add original stuff. This comes from my belief that everything here should be very well cited, and I just don't have the time to go chasing down sources for everything I want to add. I did see once the request for an article on Supersampling, and I thought it was incredible how there wasn't one here already, so I started making one. I did all my research (mostly chasing down sources... I know SS :)), and I put in real effort. All the text, and all the images (except the color one; I got it on de.wiki and changed it) are my work.

But I did start thinking about becoming more active quite recently. Making a kind of personal rule to make a certain contribution to every article I see here. But that still leaves me with the problem of sourcing material. I just don't feel comfortable adding in info and not referencing it. Feels kinda wrong.

Will dwell on this though. I'm thinking along the lines of checking what sources are already cited, and then adding in stuff that's in concert with them. Or helping with wording, formatting, etc. There's a lot of work to be done. Up until now, I've been telling myself I don't have the time to do this. But that nagging feeling of taking and not giving back is rearing it's head. So I'll probably start being more active soon. Tomorrow even.

Now, I'm a computer science and electrical engineering student. A damn good one if I may say so myself. It runs in the family, my father's got a Ph.D. in Computer Science. So if there's anything I can help you with in regards to computer security, I'll be glad to. Don't listen to all that crap about the internet being unsafe. Sure, it is, if you don't know what you're doing, and yes, most people don't (don't get offended here please :)). But making your network practically 100% secure (and yes, I mean 100%... not counting NSA though) is something you can accomplish easily with a few bucks and a lot of knowledge. I've secured networks everywhere: from small companies, to networks numbering in 300 workstations and racks upon racks of blade servers. And every network I helped secure has never, and I mean NEVER been compromised without direct inside help (when someone gives out their password, shit... there's no cure for stupidity). My personal home network hasn't been compromised in what... 6 years? 7? Maybe more... no port scans, no viruses, nada... the last time it was, yes, it was inside help. Stupidity. That kills.

Point being, if you need advice, I'll give it gladly. And the guy didn't really need to be intelligent. With today's free tools on net, a script kiddie could wreak havoc (and they do).

Next point... I'm nominating you for an RfA in let's say, 5 days? Saturday-ish? You beef up on policy. And yes, I'm a 100% sure you should be an admin.

Cheers mate. -- xompanthy 01:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Why do you let Kubura bully you? Don't allow this to happen. I believe you should be an admin and I'm completely certain the community would agree. Don't let a few editors like him shake your resolve... -- xompanthy 17:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
This concerns you too (pasting from Kubura's page):
I've been reading your talk archives and I can't believe it how you two can go at it on and on and on... Don't you get BORED? I mean really... why continue? He makes good points, and you make good points. In a majority of your discussions, you are both right. Though for the life of me I can not understand why do you continue to trash out that discussion forever... and frankly, looking at the page... you two seem like friends. At least, you could be, if you both accepted the other's difference of opinion. And start respecting each other more. Both of you are not nationalistic, but patriots fighting about something both of you should be able to just say "OK! I believe in what I believe, you believe in what you believe. We agree to disagree. Let's move on...". He's not a "Greater Serbian" supporter. Seriously, you can't say that; that's just no true, and I know you know this. And you're not an NDH supporter from what I can see. I must admit, I was thinking you were. But reading your discussion...
Why can't you two just get along? Seriously now. You must have some respect for him, and I know he has some for you. Come on. Bury the hatchet. You disagree, and you both make good points. Have some mutual respect people, for crying out loud... Još samo fali da izvadite oružja i poubijate se, jel tako? Baš vam to treba. Pa u KURAC, završite tu prokletu diskusiju već jednom i nastavite dalje svojim putevima! Jebo vas ja, i onda se ljudi pitaju zašto se mi međusobno svi i dalje ne možemo smisliti... obojica ste panjevi... -- xompanthy 18:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

All those history articles... I believe they're all very nice :). I just don't have the time to check them all out. And I'm not a big fan of history. And you and Kubura just reminded me why...

Concerning that whole silly matter... he's not going to cool down until you downright say you're sorry for nominating him for sockpuppeting. I read the rationale, and it was convincing. I can see why you thought that. But in the end, you were wrong, and the whole case hurt him. It really did. You should go and say you're sorry (in a few more words). Then we can put this to rest. 'Cause I know you're sorry. Go tell him that then.

The world would be a far better place if we all apologized more often... -- xompanthy 20:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Here, I made a few edits there [21]. Hope you approve... -- xompanthy 20:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh for the love of God :)... that "hope you approve" was more tongue-in-cheek. I know how to be bold, and I think high enough of you to know you wouldn't call anything on wikipedia yours. -- xompanthy 22:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I know I'll laugh my ass off, but I don't think he will. He's taking things waaaaay too seriously. And I stopped trying to nudge him into apologizing, now I'm just trying to make him forgive you for listing him for sockpuppeting. And he's not budging... Damn, that man is stubborn. I do like him though. He just needs to lighten up. -- xompanthy 23:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

You know when I said I hated us all I wasn't being all that serious... The moment got me. The way we can still battle it out over the most insignificant things amazes me. Playing the blame game forever I would say should get tiring. But that doesn't seem to be the issue.

I just see it and feel so sick of it. Bottom line, I like us all (of course I do), I just find it that we, as a collection of neighboring peoples, act like morons 90% of the time. And there's no need for it. We're better than that.

And now that's enough of that :) -- xompanthy 17:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Of all the people...

... to leave something on a talk page, untranslated (and mainspace at that!). What do the (Serbian?) bits on the two "House of" pages say?

And, just to chime in with xompanthy, you're not an admin already? I definitely thought you were. -Bbik 04:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

My point exactly! See, Bbik agrees and she's (yes, I realized she's not a man eventually :)) an excellent editor. The community is behind you. And if you're still afraid of someone hacking you, I'll help you secure your network like Fort Knox. -- xompanthy 17:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Heh, it was mostly because it was so much that wasn't English that I asked. That, and amusement that it came from someone who otherwise is so good about using English everywhere.
As for "Arch", my guess is it's something along the lines of archbishop, archdioceses, etc. From archbishop, "The word comes from the Greek αρχι, which means "first" or "chief"..." so it seems like it would make sense. -Bbik 23:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gorani

Well, I'm a bit suspicious when talking about who wrote what and how, plus, it wasn't directly sourced. You know well that there are different points of view and the Serbian one is by no means the most important of all, so as to ignore the others and just state "they're of Serbian origin". We should be very careful with such topics. Todor→Bozhinov 07:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course, that's what we're supposed to do — sum up all credible theories :) Of course, that Arabic thing shouldn't be taken too seriously, we all know Islamization is not unique to that group in the Balkans, and it used to be a relatively common occurrence, so such a thesis is hardly sustainable. I remember reading something like that for the Pomaks too, but I might be wrong. Todor→Bozhinov 17:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Maps

I'm just annoyed by such a narrow view. Do you know those little 'slips' that people put around horses' eyes, in order to prevent them from going astray? That's my association :) I am really bored having to explain over and over again how there seem to be 35,000 Serbs in Zagreb, and not as many people in most of Lika, and how it doesn't make sense to make majority-only maps because they generally don't mean anything. --Joy [shallot] 14:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Црногорци

Па добро, није Британика Свето Писмо.--Methodius 20:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Except it's not. The language Montenegrins speak cannot be closer to standard Croatian than standard Serbian because it is itself a form of standard Serbian. It cannot be closer to something else than to itself. --Methodius 20:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

You've missed my point. If a different word is used in Montenegro than in Serbia, then obviously standard Serbian includes that form. Your argument is like saying ijekavica is hardly spoken in Serbia, only in RS, therefore RS is closer to Croatian than Serbian - no, because what is standard Serbian is defined by Serbian speakers. In the current case, that would be the 63.5% in Montenegro.--Methodius 12:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

It can mean short story or history. Granted, the latter use is not so common (because Serbs never had such a tradition of linguistic purism). Examples of the word's use, just of the top of my head: the book Kratka povjesnica Srba and this website. I think the difference we have, or misunderstanding, is that you define Serbian quite narrowly, as the modern mainstream urban language of Serbia (which to me is just one form of Serbian), whereas I define it as everything Serbs use(d) with the "Central South Slavic diasystem" (what a mouthful!), because that's the only way of attributing "Serbianess" or "Croatianess" to anything from one contiguous linguistic space.--Methodius 15:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way, what do you suggest about the troublemaker (Serbs in Dubrovnik)?--Methodius 15:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Those months are Pan-Slavic. I think they use them in Poland. Plus you have the Vojvodina town Sečanj, which has the same etymology. I also don't really understand what you meant to say. You did mention Podrinje, it doesn't mean it can't be Serbian. In fact, Podrinje is an old Serbian region :)--Methodius 15:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, there we have it: your definition is wrong :)--Methodius 16:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I get the feeling you are trolling me, though maybe you're just not that hot on this issue. Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Montenegrin etctetc are linguistically one language. So it makes no sense to divide them along artificial lines which cut across dialect borders. However, if you ARE going to divide them, it only makes sense to divide them on name-preference grounds of native speakers. To say 40% of Serbs speak a language closer to Croatian than Serbian, inasmuch as it has any meaning in the first place, is totally WRONG, because they define the language, and they define it as Serbian (just a Croats define what they speak as Croatian).

The language of Banja Luka Serbs (say), cannot be closer than Serbian to Croatian, because it is Serbian in and of itself. It cannot be closer to Croatian than to itself, right? I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about that. It's like saying Dubrovnik dialect is closer to Serbian than Croatian, because it belongs to a Serb majority dialect area, and that's just a logical short circuit. These languages are now defined by their speakers, not on linguistic considerations (liguistically they are one). Yes that's a bad situation, but you can't have it both ways. You (not you personally) can't declare a new/revived (whatever) language (Croatian) and then ten years later say that people who are speaking their mother tongue of generations are actually speaking Croatian without knowing. You can't promote the "speaker-named" concept when it suits you, and then switch back to strictly linguistic considerations when it suits you in the new framework. If you don't get it, don't bother continuing this discussion, because you must be seeing what you want to see.--Methodius 21:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Доста више, нећу се више смарати са твојим тролањем. Наградно питање: на коме је језику ова порука? --Methodius 22:28, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

You just annoying me, please stop spamming my talk page which time wasting rubish.--Methodius 23:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wahhabism

Yeah, we have a lot of problems with them. I mean why can't they practice the European Islam that most Bosnians practice. I mean the differences are huge. They are disliked by most Bosniaks of BiH. The traditional Islam of Bosniaks cannot be compared to the Wahhabism movement. This movement can only hurt western views of Islam in Bosnia. It is not a devastating movement, yet. I mean we have to let people have free will, right? I mean you could argue both ways. However, I do not support the movement. Regular Bosnian Islam is one of the most modern "types". Thanks, Vseferović 03:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo resolution

I can't believe I support something suggested by NS, but the idea is good(although I don't know the exact content of the proposed declaration). Will it be adopted? Tough question, I reckon the govt. will keeps insisting on neutrality. We'll see. :) Sideshow Bob 18:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tolerance vs Censorship

Hi Pax,

I wonder where are the messages that I'been posting to you? Why are you deleting them? I haven't deleted any of your messages of my talk page. I guess, that is the difference between "us" and "you", because while we "tolerate" you "censorship." Bosniak 03:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Brioni meeting

What, I didn't see? --Joy [shallot] 12:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a reference? --Joy [shallot]
Err. I couldn't find it on HRT teletext. But, news.google.com helped me find http://www.javno.com/en/croatia/clanak.php?id=30226 That's actually an old story, those transcripts and sentences like 'Serbs must be eliminated' have been in the Croatian press for months now. However, I watched a political talk show recently where the quotes were spelled out and there was nothing as exact as you said; instead it seemed like every found sentence was actually a double entendre and that the transcript could be easily disputed in court. FWIW. --Joy [shallot] 12:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo Info

Thanks for the info on Kosovo, i now understand ! lol Celticfan383 13:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comp problems

I can't tell you much with so little info. As I'm reading it, you can't boot into windows. It could be both a hardware and a software issue. I'm thinking it's possible you're MBR (Master Boot Record) got corrupted, but you had to be doing something fairly complicated (like installing GRUB or Lilo) to make that happen. And I doubt you were. If you are using your comp in a regular way, and crazy things start happening all of a sudden for no good reason, chances are, it's a hardware thing. But then again, your specific case could be a virus.

You're not giving me much to go on here. Troubleshooting comp problems you need as much info as possible. You can't just tell me "I get a black screen and I need to press R". I need at least your system specs, and for God's sake your operating system version (I'm guessing it's Win XP, but I can't know for sure). And if something similar happened before, exactly what was that. I'm guessing by "Electric Charges" (električno napajanje, right?) you mean power unit. If that's it, then you shouldn't be able to boot the comp at all, or you should have it randomly restart for no reason. If you see a black screen with a system prompt, then it's probably a software issue. Again, you're not giving me much to go on.

A virus most likely, if you weren't doing something screw-up-able, like installing new drivers. Insert the windows CD, format the drive, and start anew.

A way better idea is to get it to a repair shop. -- xompanthy 17:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

That didn't tell me much. When I was talking about more info, I was thinking about more info on the problem itself. Your specs are the bare minimum of information. But since this seems like a complicated problem, to be able to fix it, I would need to sit down in front of the computer. And I can't. I'm telling you, this kind of thing, you need to sit someone knowledgeable in front of the comp and tell him to fix it. There's no way I could do it hundreds of miles away. Sorry man. I just can't open the case and have a look inside to see if something burnt out. I can't run test on it. Can't check out your BIOS, etc.
Get it to a repair shop. -- xompanthy 17:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Glad to hear you got it sorted out. And you should format your drive at least every 2 years. Backup important files, and then clean it all. Helps the comp breathe. -- xompanthy 19:52, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, of course I did. It's all over the news. And his page is on my watchlist, so when I woke up this morning I saw the 20 edits or so over there. Anyway, yes, I know. -- xompanthy 21:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I have no idea. Both HDZ and SDP could win the upcoming elections, so it's anyone's guess how it will turn out. I'm honestly not thinking about it, and won't be for a while. -- xompanthy 22:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Linux? The future of operating systems. But not for at least 3-5 more years. It needs time to mature. Windows is crap, but my grandmother can use it, and my 7-year-old cousin can install it. When Linux can accomplish that, Windows will go down in flames. Right now chances are you can set it up without problems, but I have yet to encounter a Linux installation that didn't require substantial tweaking afterwards to make everything work. And I have installed everything from Mandriva, Ubuntu, Red Hat, SUSE etc.

Personally, I would use it if I didn't need all those windows apps every day. -- Xompanthy 17:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Discussion @ Talk Pages

These kinds of discussions at Wiki Talk Pages are trully "non-functional". Every time I respond to your post on my talk page, I also have to come here to your Talk Page and let you know that I responded. How else would you (or anybody else) know there is a reply waiting for you? This wikipedia needs some serious coding. I am glad you archived my responses, as opposed to deleting them. I hate censorship, it's disgusting. I hate censorship so much that I actually devoted a very long article about it, you can read it here - of course, only if you are interested. Recently, I met one Bosnian Serb at work. Guess what? He considers himself Bosnian (and he is from Herzegovina!). Yes, we get along well. I was wondering, why not just create ethnic regions as opposed to entities? Or maybe - B&H should be organized in cantons (same as in Croatia). Two highly autonomous political entities are not good for the future of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It will only lead to divisions, and that's not good for anybody. Bosnia is a multi-national country and the creation of ethnically "pure" regions goes against the spirit of Bosnia. Bosniak 04:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Offended

I do not understand why you left link to Holocust denial in my talk page. Are you accusing me of Holocust denial? If yes I have to say I am very offended by you since I never have tried or will try to do something like that. No reasonable people in the world denies that Hitler killed 7 million Jews during the WW2. I as an Kosovar who experienced something similar during the Kosovo war can never and will never deny anything as Holocaust unlike most Serbs who keep denying Srebrenica, Racak and other inhuman massacres committed by the people elected by the Serbs. Once again I will ask you to stop offending me this way. You should take a look at e.g. Racak incident article and see how your revisionist Serbs use Serbian Government as reference when they say Racak massacre was not a massacre. Please answer in your talk page since I will take a wikibreak but will be back some weeks later and than I will write some article where I will need your help with translating from Serbian to English. Do you want to help?? Wish you a nice weekend. --Noah30 07:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problem with a vandal

Somebody without an account has been removing a cited sentence again and again in the article about the Serbs in Dubrovnik. I've been rolling back his/her changes, but is there a long term solution? As an administrator, can you stop this person editing this article?--Methodius 10:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

Nah, you didn't say anything wrong, I just haven't had much time for editing Wikipedia recently. Tudjman news are, I'd say, nothin new, but a mere proof of something we all already knew. Also, about the Kosovo resolution... For some reason that issue is persistently ignored in Montenegrin newspaper, so I am not as informed of who supports or opposes it, but if it's as you wrote, it is exactly as I expected. I doubt DPS will support it, altough miracles are always possible. :) Cheers.Sideshow Bob 15:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I like LDP, especially because of their positive attitude towards the Montenegrins in Vojvodina and Serbia in general, as well as their liberal philosophy. But, I think Kosovo should not be just given away, just because a minority is predominant there. But, since the US support Albanians' demands, someone has to stand up against it. Hopefully Russia will have enough cojones to do so.(Opposing USA is one of their favourite passtimes, obviously :). Following the same routine, tommorow they can be asking for parts of Sandzak, or eastern Montenegro, and I know how irritated I would be with that; so I can understand the frustration of the Serbians. Two Albanian staes in the Balkans - not the best way out of this conflict... ;) Sideshow Bob 15:38, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kumanovo Agreement

Hi Pax. I received your reply to my Talk Page about paralels between Bosnian Serbs and Kosovo. Very good point. I will do more research on Kumanovo Agreement before I post lenghtier response. Bosniak 23:39, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

- One more thing - I see you love creating ethnic maps etc. I love that stuff too. Check this out: Ethnic Map of B&H 2007 Bosniak 01:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Oy vey.

Račan has died. That's not good for the upcoming elections, is it? —Nightstallion (?) 15:34, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CroDome

I read that a while ago. I think Kubura gave me the link. Yeah, it's funny. But it's sad too. -- Xompanthy 20:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm reading it now again, and yup, laughing my ass off again :). Some people are truly one-of-a-kind. "I am today forced to live with Serbians. Do you know that every single moment of my life is fear? You might never know when a Serb couldn't attack me from a corner and cut my throat!" Man, the people I live with in this country... -- Xompanthy 20:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] iruka

No - just had some spare time & thought I'ld fill it in. Seems like there are a few edit wars going on - this place hasn't changed (lol). iruka 02:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Division of Bosnia-Herzegovina (Opinion + Map)

I want your serious opinion on the following topic + latest map that I created: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bosniak#Division_of_Bosnia-Herzegovina_-_Minimum_of_Demands Bosniak 03:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Magiozal

Why does he not get banned for insulting national statements? I wrote to an administrator for it, I am hoping he will get warned.--Methodius 15:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

But he is making racist insults! Should get warn, then ban, right?--Methodius 21:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Look for links on administator talk page.--Methodius 21:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, calling black americans nigger isn't very civil, and I think it gets peoples banned. So why not him. Or what if I talk about black coward or muslim coward. You peoples take much too much from idiots like him.--Methodius 22:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

So, calling someone Serbian coward is OK? Or black coward? No? Why is difference? He disrespects Serbian murdered civilians. Maybe I should go to Auschwitz article, see if I get banned if I write "what is this "6 million"?", like he did. After that, I go to african american article and make wordplays on usernames and nigger, like he did it with chetnik. Then you tell me why I am banned and he is not. By making agreements to let him say this, you make him think it is ok to be racist and make insults.--Methodius 23:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for help, I will.--Methodius 23:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UCC

Just let 'em try... :) Seriously now, their advance is obvious, and I expect some sort of activity in Montenegro soon. But, I, looking for the drop of good in an ocean of bad, see this as a situation that will finally somewhat reconcile Montenegrins and "Montenegrin Serbs", since it would be our common problem. We'll wait and see, although I doubt their eventual actions over here will cause a major unrest or achieve greater magnitude... Sideshow Bob 18:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't you just love it how Serbs redirect their attention to the most meaningless matters while the very ground they're standing on is burning? The newest scapegoat are the "rastas" - Serbian Radical Party and some even more radical organisations(such as "Obraz") have announced a "Baseball bats gathering" at the same time that Global Marijuana March was supposed to take place in Belgrade. Accusing those pot-smoking peaceful hippies for all the troubles and flaws in their society... :) The ganja march was cancelled due to constant threats, so now apparently Serbians can sleep well, because the problem has been taken care of, and they can all get back to their perfect lives? Balkan hipocrisy and habit of focusing on irrelevant issues continues.(Just take a look at Montenegro - Montenegrins v. Serbs, MOC v. SOC, language debate, etc.)... The most pathetic part is - people who would be causing violence on that day would have no idea why they were doing it,have no idea what the point of that march is... Einstein characterised that sort of people i two great quotations..

  • Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds.
  • Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the first one.

I just get annoyed by seeing crap like this happening over and over again. Seems like the people here are never gonna get the point... Cheers... Sideshow Bob 22:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

When you start wondering if it can get any worse, here comes this... Montenegrin govt. has signed the controversial Article 98 (see United States and the International Criminal Court), and even tried to conceal it from the public. I'm speechless... Just look at the sort of countries that signed that pact. Not to mention that by signing this we can kiss EU goodbye, because they threatened Croatia and some other countries they won't be allowed to join if they sign the Article... Sideshow Bob 00:21, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hi Pax

Hi Pax, You have a new reply at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bosniak#Division_of_Bosnia-Herzegovina_-_Minimum_of_Demands .

Also, can you use the same map I submitted to you as a proposal and draw proposed teritorial lines yourself (as you think they should look)? I want your opinion. Bosniak 01:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Let's go over this again

At Amadeus' talk page you stated: "Serbs are in minority in Kosovo, with more correctly, a bit over 7% of the population. But they are not in legal law a "national minority", just like Bosniacs and Croats aren't in the Serb Republic."

Plain and simple, you are wrong. Bosniaks and Croats are constituent peoples of Republika Srpska, meaning they have exactly the same rights as Serbs. Bosniaks and Croats also have a power of veto in Republika Srpska, which means no decision can be made without their agreement. In other words, in Republika Srpska - Bosniaks and Croats are not national minorities but constituent peoples (co-founders of RS). Bosniak 01:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religious map of Bosnia and Herzegovina

Regarding your "Religious map of Bosnia and Herzegovina by municipalities according to the 1910 population census", please change the green "Bosnians" to "Bosniaks". Bosnian should refer to all inhabitants of Bosnia and Herzegovina, regardless of ethnicity. Croats and Serbs are not foreigners or national minorities, but constituent nations and just as native to the Bosnian region as the Muslim Bosniaks. Thank you.

[edit] The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue XIV (April 2007)

The April 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

This is an automated delivery by grafikbot 14:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image:1915 Dance by Rodchenko.jpg

Hello, PaxEquilibrium. An automated process has found and removed a fair use image used in your userspace. The image (Image:1915 Dance by Rodchenko.jpg) was found at the following location: User talk:PaxEquilibrium/Archive2. This image was removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image was replaced with Image:Example.jpg, so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. Please find a free image to replace it with. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 22:48, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Come on Pax

... I am still waiting for your response... Bosniak 00:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SPS

Thanks for settling the age old dispute over the policy, I'm quite comfortable with your explanation and I'll gladly revert back to it if any user interferes with it, especially if they try to do their favourite, which is simply state "nationalism". Evlekis 20:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Right on, even more ridiculous is "democracy" and "anti-nationalism". Since when was "Democracy" a creed? It is at most a parliamentry system which is either present or it isn't. Naturally it is down to one governing body to introduce it gradually, but then once it is there, it is impossible to revoke; being authoritarian never prevented the wind of change, forget Milosevic, look what happened to countless more leaders of yesteryear. Don't worry, I'm not accusing you of having done this, I'm just rabbiting! Thanks for reading. Evlekis 20:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Serbian Orthodox Church

...is what I have come back for. I invite you to join. :-) --Hadžija 18:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Not at all... Here's hoping you'll join some time in the future. :-)--Hadžija 21:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hello again

If you look at the Djordje Novkovic talk, you'll see that Joy-Shallot and I have for the past two days disagreed over Cyrillic/Latinic issues. Not that I wish to enlist your help on my side, that is not my style, but can you just tell us what you personally think; give us your views. I'm not angry with Joy, and I am open to debate and discussion despite occasional signs of enthusiasm. And despite how things may look to some, I am not an extremist either. Where I have added Cyrillic, I have always felt there to be a reason, there are times when I have removed it too...so...one can make up his own mind! :) Drop a line on the talk page if you can, thanks Pax. Evlekis 19:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Molise Pixie

Ej Pixie zdravo.

I was back for 10min to read about the Molise Croats and found some Serb pov. I wanted to see what was the closest Serie A Football club to them. Looks like SS Lazio. Do you know?


Well i was a little shocked to find the heading said Molise Croats yet someone has changed all the text to read Molise Serbs. I have told User Joy to fix it. Why do people continue to make bad faith edits? If someone had a Serbian theory to the origin of those people why didn't they add it to the growing list at the foot of the article.

Again i don't see a problem as those Slavs have a few possible origins Zadar, Dalmatia, Bosna etc...and who knows maybe Serbia!!!!



Jagoda 1 03:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikibreak

Several obligations have forced me to take a wikibreak, so I'm not very active here. Sorry for the delayed reply. When I get back from the wikibreak in a few days, we'll talk more, k?

Cheers. :) -- Xompanthy 12:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alkalada

I'll try to keep him in check, but part of the reason I left Wikipedia is that it doesn't have an effective mechanism for dealing with people who are solely here to subvert the project.--Hadžija 20:48, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I am Thunderman and you are estavisti, we know each other since the time in skyscrapercity. Or, maybe you dont know me but I know you, and as far as your comments on SSC, you are a hardcore serbian nationalist. However I do post at talk pages, and I will as of tomorrow also post sources and evidence which shows the truth and not "the entire balkan is holy serbian" and so on...

Anyway.. if you want to talk then write on my talk page. Alkalada 22:09, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:

I found that out long ago. Finally, a Montenegrin pope :) --CrnaGora 23:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grahovo or Grahovac

What is the name of this town, Grahovac or Grahovo? I am totally confused because I always thought that this town was always known as Grahovo and have never heard of Grahovac. --CrnaGora 14:48, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I thought it was "Grahovac" because of the Battle of Grahovac, which is actually supposed to be the Battle of "Grahovo". Also, in the Principality of Montenegro article, someone put "Grahovac, Montenegro" as the target for the Grahovo link, twice. --CrnaGora 18:23, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I get your point. Thanks for clearing everything up. --CrnaGora 21:27, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


Pax, come on let's be serious. Her father is a Bosniak emmigrant fron turkey, you know very well that Serifovic is Bosnian. NO call for cite. Ancient Land of Bosoni
I do believe it is. Her mother took that name when she married, could there possibly be another reason. Perhaps her mother is half Bosniak? Ancient Land of Bosoni
Her fathers name is Rajko... NOT so common among bosniaks 83.248.137.228 23:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
HAhaha Rajko, good one! Damn what is she seriously, haha, not good looking that's for sure. But congratualtions anyway, personally thought sestic song was better. Anyhow, could you look into this closer and fins any source perhaps? Ancient Land of Bosoni
Okey I respect that, but I've read that her father is only originally from Turkey - not meaning that her father is an ethnic Turk. I'm just trying to make my point - one can't have serifovic as a surname without having some Bosniak "Blood" or history in her/him. To get a bit more off the record, she seems to be just ashamed for some reason when saying such things.Ancient Land of Bosoni
Well I don't know, just sounds like an execuse. She throws three fingers in the camera of ESC like a crazy fool, but it's obvious that she's playing an image. Ancient Land of Bosoni
Well of course I do, but that is a religious/nationalistic sign - one must respect that all people from his/her country is not of the same oppinion. She needs to be neautral! Ancient Land of Bosoni
I see where you're coming at, and most likely she didn't mean anything offensive. But what if a muslim would have begun to pray, i suspect that wouldn't have been appreciated, in the same way her religous sign shouldn't. Ancient Land of Bosoni

I didn't really get that comment =/ Ancient Land of Bosoni

Allergic to Serbian symbols, eh?--Hadžija 00:05, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sceptre would like to nominate you for adminship!

Sceptre would like to nominate you to become an administrator. Please visit Wikipedia:Requests for adminship to see what this process entails, and then contact Sceptre to accept or decline the nomination. A page has been created for your nomination at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/PaxEquilibrium. If you accept the nomination, you must formally state and sign your acceptance and answer the questions on that page. Once you have answered the questions, you may post your nomination for discussion, or request that your nominator do so.

Well? Nikola 09:29, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

UN reports are oftenly biased against Serbia, as is its treatment of Serbia. Which report in particular are you referring to? Nikola 09:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
First, we were talking about the period before the bombing. However, yes, that number is prime example of bias: actual number of refugees was smaller; it was claimed that they were forced out of their homes by Serbian army and police, which is not true; non-Albanian refugees are not given the same amount of coverage. Nikola 04:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Administratorship

Well you did some pov in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Serbs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travunija (and similar sclavonias:) and similar historical pages. It was long time ago, but I still think that you see some facts through nationalistic eyes. Sorry Ceha


[edit] Re:Flag of Montenegro

According to Heimer the tricolour was used, if only temporarily. The modern flag of Montenegro is a new design, although similar to past flags. Saying it was the same flag as flown by a fascist puppet is in poor taste, especially due to your apparent distrust in current Montenegrin regime. --Thewanderer 14:17, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hello

Hows it been?

Tomislav Nikolic is finally replaced! ;) 3 days of agony are over!!!!! --Edin Sijercic 18:07, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] admin

I would like to support PaxE nomination for admin, even though we box out of different corners and he's forever calling me a sock I think he is an excellent editor and good choice. Buffadren 18:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I would second it.--Hadžija 18:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Well I've accepted the nomination already. ;0) --PaxEquilibrium 19:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Hey, I'm glad, Buffadren 19:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
The page is carefully read by a 'crat, and they may choose to discount the votes based on lack of activity/merit. Will (is it can be time for messages now plz?) 20:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Mate, don't let yourself be pressured into withdrawing by some ethnic haters. Personally, I think they are being so agressive because they are afraid of there being a neutral, level-headed admin who would bring some order to our anarchic little subject area, by dealing with idiots and POV pushers of all stripes (though knowing you, you'd be giving them many chances to redeem themselves :-)).--Hadžija 21:50, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I have a strong suspicion, which is of course impossible to prove, that hr:Suradnik:Ante Perkovic was called to vote by hr:Suradnik:Kubura "munjopoštom" (LOL, as the kids say) .--Hadžija 21:59, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Without these stacked votes creating the impression of great opposition you'd get through easily though.--Hadžija 23:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Btw, I don't know if the hrwiki channel keeps private logs, but "Javno zapisivanje razgovora s kanala strogo je zabranjeno!"--Hadžija 23:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flag of Occupied Montenegro

Pax, would this flag qualify as the flag of occupied Montenegro? --CrnaGora 19:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Edit summaries

I'm not sure what you mean by saying "But for the past one year's time every single edit (not counting Wikipedia:Automatic edit summaries; there's no edit summary for those) made by has edit summaries." According to your user contributions [22], about a third of your edits lack edit summaries. For example, the comment you just left on my talk page at 19:24, 14 May 2007 lacks a summary, as do many of the edits you've made to other user talk pages. This makes it hard for people like myself who have many pages on their watchlist to know what an edit is about. --Alabamaboy 19:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RfA

Just wanted to wish you luck with the request. You have my utmost support, and I think the only just thing would be you finally winning the bid. I'm entering the "retirement process" at the moment, although I'll probably still be active in next month or so... I'm just getting tired of pointless discussions and POV wars (I get frustrated quite easily, can't you notice? :) Anyway, I might come back some time after my definite retirement, but I don't want to think about it now. First I want to enjoy the summer at the most beautiful coast in the world... :) Sideshow Bob 00:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I got exhausted too, but I've come back. I agree about the summer...we might pass each other in the street and not even know it. :-) --Hadžija 01:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey Pax, my first edit actually was a good faith edit about the education in Montenegro... :) I'll probably return sometime after the summer, although I can't promise when (or how often I'll be able to contribute). However, I'll still remain semi-active in next 4-5 weeks, since I want to see you become an administrator before I leave. ;) Sideshow Bob 18:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

It wood be the greatest loss if you didnt become administrator. We need you. DESPERATELY. I saw how you responded with Alkalada and with you here, there will finaly be someone capable to stop evil. EdinSijercic

[edit] Proving you are HRE.

Hello. Could you please contact me via a private method? (IRC or email?) We need to prove you are HRE - the easiest way to do that is for me to post a SHA-1 hash on the RfA page, and for you to post the decrypted version (which I will give to you privately) as User:HRE. Will (We're flying the flag all over the world) 14:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I think it serves as proof enough - the question mark is a valid grammatical mistake :) Will (We're flying the flag all over the world) 22:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] For later

Dear PaxEquilibrium, 1. Thank you for the correction re adoption; I will have to think about it before signing up. 2. Also, I have put in footnotes, for example, the Miguel Asin Palacios page, that do not show up on the saved page. How come? How do I do it right so that the footnotes show up? 3. I thank you for your help. There is no hurry on this. 4. Of course, I have noticed your set of self-descriptions and would like say that I am also, probably for different although perhaps similar reasons, an anti-nationalist. All the best, Elfelix Elfelix 22:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC) =>2a. P.S. I found out how to do it. It hit me after I managed to frame the question to you, how to look it up. Of course, before I could never find any reference to footnotes, but this time viola! it was right there! So thanks for your invisible assistance. Elfelix 02:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SPS

I think you may wish to keep an eye on the policy of the Socialist Party of Serbia. I was pleased with your description on the infobox and so I've twice reverted it, you need to watch for these anons who like to publish "nationalism" which we now see is founded, atleast standing alone with no explanation. Right now it is as you left it, I've seen to that but as I said, you may wish to keep an eye on it.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Evlekis (talk • contribs)

[edit] Rfa

Most excellent. I believe I am being my usual "overzealous Yank" self (to quote an editor a couple years back, coupled with my first drinks in several months. Glad you're pleased with the status of Wikipedia (I've always found it fun myself, and have wondered why good editors freak out and quite over not becoming admins), and I was keen on keeping you around! Hope all's well, and happy editing! Jmlk17 10:48, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Smederevo/Varna

I still am, though major, fast progress is on hold lately. Partially, I'm not much in the mood to find all kinds of sources again, considering how much effort it took to not only find them, but also get translations of them, for Golubac. But mostly, RL has poked in. I've gone from being sick, to having my computer half die, to not having a computer for at least a week while it got fixed, to spending even more time fighting with stuff not reinstalling properly, to school starting up again, to being sick yet again and sleeping more than being awake (this past week, I'm still fighting it), and all with allergies thrown in on top (aka sinus headaches and no desire to have them turn into migraines because of too much time spent looking at a computer screen). Oh, and another class starting, too, though it's shorter, so hopefully I can get back to it in force in a few days. That's my plan, anyhow.

Peace of Szeged was actually a continuation of the whole Golubac undertaking, there was no way to decently summarize that in Golubac's history, so the page was to get rid of the red link, and I'd been planning to write that one up somehow (though I had been thinking of just a stub) since halfway through writing Golubac.

As for the crusade itself, I noticed you added him to the commanders list, though I'm actually not sure you're right, this time. It sounds to me like Julian, Cardinal Cesarini was actually the key person responsible for the crusade, if not so prominently once plans were turned to action. From The Crusade of Varna, The [Hungarian] army was, however, smaller than the force that had set out in 1443. Furthermore, George Branković, who had regained his lands in Serbia and apparently had scruples about breaching a sworn treaty, did not participate. (last paragraph of page 28). Admittedly, that's only the introduction of what's apparently a fairly long book, so perhaps it says something about him leading a small section in the rest of the book, but... -Bbik 03:52, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Well... Yes, it cleared something up, but not what you were intending. I think the problem is general confusion over what, specifically, is included as part of the crusade, and what the Varna page actually refers to. There's the "general" definition of the crusade, which includes everything from mid-late 1443 through late 1444-early 1445, with the Peace of Szeged as a sort of midpoint. And, there's also the more narrow defintion, where only the Battle of Varna is considered the crusade, and everything else is just lead-up to the main battle.
I'd say the first definition makes more sense, both because it'd be easier to work with, and because crusades are generally more drawn-out than just a single battle. However, the Battle of Varna page is specifically about the battle, and as such I still don't think Branković should be listed there. Though, perhaps there should be an entirely separate article at Crusade of Varna (rather than a redirect), to show the overall timeline (1443-1445). That article would list Branković, and Battle of Varna would be mostly left alone, with just minor corrections to clarify that it, while the main battle of the crusade, is just the endpoint, rather than the entire crusade all by itself.
Would that work/make sense? -Bbik 21:19, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Eh. I put up the busy notice while I didn't have a computer, but otherwise... It's not really worth it. I'm still around, still checking talk and doing the quick and easy vandalism-on-watchlist reverting, just not doing as much major editting. And having a break/busy template up while still doing that, and sporadic bouts of far more, strikes me as mostly silly. Perhaps if it were more towards the not around at all. Oh, and there's the hope that things'll settle down so I won't even need it! Too bad it hasn't worked so far. :P -Bbik 21:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
On second thought, I just remembered what my other reservation was. The redirect is specifically the "Crusade of Varna", which is why it's for that one battle specifically. I do think it would be worth having a general page for the entire chain of events, though, to hopefully avoid more confusion like this. But what should that one be called? The "Crusade of 1443-1445"? That sounds stupid. -Bbik 21:51, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Or then again, we have Crusades#Crusades in the Balkans. Can we get away with calling the whole thing the Crusade of Varna after all? -Bbik 21:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, started for now. I need to get food so my brain'll turn on again, but I'll make it a bit more useful stub after that (unless you care to do it!). If someone comes along with a better, more general name for it sometime later, they can fix it then, but for now, at least there's something. -Bbik 22:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Any chance you have a source I can cite, saying the crusade was originally because of Đurađ specifically, rather than just the general 'push Islam from Europe'? It makes enough sense, but lasting proof is always good! Especially when one of my sources makes it sound far more like Serbia was just another justification, rather than a cause, and that low-key planning had already been underway for years. -Bbik 00:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your RFA

I closed your rfa as no consensus. Sorry. Secretlondon 12:51, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

Yeah, I've just noticed those changes on my watchlist, so I reacted. :) I didn't hear about Medojevic's plans, but he'll probably get my vote, since Milo's puppet and a Serb nationalist, as the possible alternatives, don't appear to be the presidential material. Also, I'm sorry about your RfA; Wikipedia is not just, but there is nothing an individual can do about it. Take Montenegrin Wikipedia proposal as an example... Btw, today is exactly a year since Montenegro regained its independence. Man, that was a once-in-the-lifetime experience... :) Sideshow Bob 19:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Nah, I don't think Filip is a Serb nationalist, I was rather referring to possible Serbian List & co. candidate... Also, I find your sentence about referendum somewhat confusing. Does it say you were celebrating it as well? If it does, I must admit I haven't seen that coming... :) About Montenegrin wikipedia... I think that idea, as well as our support, is wearing out; and not much changed, especially here, since our last request, so I don't see how the decision will be different next time. Sideshow Bob 19:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Well yeah... It is quite surprising, since I can remember that when I first came here and put a userbox supporting Montenegrin independence, you commented asking why I support it if it's not jeopardized, or something like that. Also, your general attitudes and closeness to SNP beliefs led me to think you were slightly leaning toward the "unionist" side.
I must admit I'm a little curious about the thing with Terzic, but if you prefer not to talk about that I won't insist on it. :)
Also, when I said Serb List and co., I referred to the whole pro-Serbian opposition(somewhat excluding SNP, as the mildest one). I'm not so sure in the ability of the opposition to unite, since the goals of its individual parties differ greatly. I can't exactly see PzP, SNS, Liberal Party and, say NS in a united oppositionist bloc. Sideshow Bob 01:53, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I know who Terzic is, I was just curious about your encounter with him... :) I don't really like SNP, but PzP is, along with LP, the only political option I can support at the moment. I even know one of their Parliament representatives personally. :)
Also, I suggest reading Balša Brković's column in Vijesti online edition... Yeah, Jevrem's son. But I enjoy reading his weekly column, usually refering to current Montenegrin issues. In Saturday's edition, he was back to writing about Milo & co. (and their awards for "humanism"). I just have a feeling you might agree with some of his views... ;)If you're interested, check out the archive, it's in 'Kultura' part. Sideshow Bob 16:59, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moldova

about your last edit, the population estimate. I do agree with your edit, but I question your numbers. At the last census, there were 3,400,000+550,000. (note 550,000 include all localities with transnistrian administration, incl. Tighina, the number without Tighina was 450,000.) Now you have almost 400,000 more! This is 10% in 2 years. Please, triple check your sourse!!! :Dc76 21:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

What can I say? It's bad both for Moldova and for Serbia articles. I understand that you got the estimation for 2007 from the latest CIA factbook. The problem is, it almost certainly does not take into account the 2005 census, the official results of which were published more than a year after the census, and there were widespread critics that the census did not cover everyone but often data was filled in from the blue (b/c of lack of money). However, this mostly refers to the questions in the census, where there were controversies, but less likely for the number of people. Given all that, if I were someone who compiles the factbook, without knowing very well what's going on, I'd be inclined to use previous year estimations to generate this year ones, hoping that by the next year there would be more clarity about in what aspects to use and what not census results. In case of Moldova, the difference (950,000) is (logically) sugested to be Transnistria, but only 550,000 is. In the case of Serbia , the almost 3,000,000 is (logically) suggested to be Kosovo, but only 2,000,000 are. Ok, I officially don't know. Maybe we should add [dubious – discuss] to both to make the reader be careful. :-) Ok, not [dubious – discuss], but something milder maybe? :Dc76 22:24, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Another reason why CIA factbook is likely to use its previous estimations. Think who uses it. Economists, etc, people who do statistics, comparing countries, and trying to explain causes and trends. They like and need data that is not varying like 10% from year to year, and those who make the factbook know who uses their data, so are conservative in trusting a census that contradicts them by 10%. Even if the census results are believed by them to be the more correct ones!:Dc76 22:24, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Look at this, that I have just found, please. Maybe introducing it into the article could give the reader more info. And we can then leave the infobox as is.:Dc76 14:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Perfect. Sorry, i somehow overlooked it under my nose. thanx.:Dc76 16:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Left random thoughts on talk page regarding Moldovan/Romanian. Best regards, PētersV 21:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

A rose by any other name is still a rose. Historically, pre-Moldova, Moldavians (Moldavia as an entity was stable for a long time) spoke Romanian, but it could/would also be called Moldavian. Stalin annexed Bessarabia and couldn't figure out what to do with "Moldova" in terms of furthering Soviet interests--for a while, Moldovan was not Cyrillic (thinking that would aid in agitprop to bring "revolution" to Romania, but Moldovan—Romanian ties were resulting in a net import of outside ideology (not export of Sovietization), so Stalin had Cyrillic Moldovan created--transliterating the Latin to the Russian Cyrillic, NOT reinstating the pre-Latin Cyrillic specific to Romanian prior to the Latinization of its alphabet. (Transnistrian propaganda lies about returning Moldovan to its "historical" roots.) That Cyrillization of Romanian assisted in Russification (that is, people forced to learn how Cyrillic is pronounced) and in disrupting Romanian-Moldavian communications, certainly among the general public--for example, would you really be motivated to understand English in transliterated Russian Cyrillic?
   So, official/real "Moldovan" is "Romanian." Fake Cyrillic "Moldovan" is not a language, it's a manufactured artifact. That you can find people still insisting the fake is a language has everything to do with politics and who wants to advertise/enforce their dominance and precious little to do with linguistics. (For example, people will contend that because farmers use some words that city folk don't it's a different language.) Hope this helps. PētersV 14:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] oliver dulic

How is he croatian by nationality? Paulcicero 16:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marija Serifovic

Hi, sorry for the delayed answer. Regarding marija serifovic, you can "have" her. Hell, I'm even prepared to protect whatever version of the article as long it states her to be serb. I don't knwo what got to me, of course she's not Bosniak, silly me. Ancient Land of Bosoni

[edit] Veto

Hi Pax,

I answered your question about veto. Bosniak 05:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chetniks (Croatian war article)

Hi. I've responded at my talk page.

The Spanish Inquisitor 09:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hello

I have very little time now, therefore I am not active here. I appreciate you are offering to help me with a translation but I don't need help right now, maybe in the future. Wish you a really nice summer. --Noah30 18:19, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Translation: I asked Kosovari to take a look at some articles. I used dictionary/father to translate the words I did not understand. But I can little Serbian: Kako ste? Dobro? Ja sam dobro! Hahha, a lot of mistakes? --Noah30 13:25, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Hi Pax, how's it going?

I just wanted to ask, should there be a WikiProject dedicated to Kosovo created? I am asking this because there needs to be a lot of straightening up to do with Kosovo-related articles. I would also like to back up creation of this WikiProject with the fact that a WikiProject dedicated to Belgrade-related articles has been created, so why not one for Kosovo? --CrnaGora 19:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Just curiousity

I posted response to your comment, check my talk page. I wonder why did you state in your profile that your language is Serbo-Croatian? Are you coming from mixed ethnic background (not that this should be any of my business, but since you know what background I am coming from, it's only fair I know what backgound you are coming from). Anyways, don't you agree that the major source of instability comes from Serbia who, by the way, has radicalized government and political life reminiscent of pre-Hitler's Germany rhetoric of hatred and intolerance? Don't you think that some kind of liberal government would bring better prosperity to Serbia? I am just curious, because events in Serbia do influence events in Bosnia. Bosniak 02:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Serbs & Croats

Ummm... I'm guessing you're referring to this edit? Straight answer to your question, I have no idea. I couldn't give even a general count of how many people are in this state without looking it up, much less people by ethnicity around the world. I'm not quite sure where the question about number of Serbs came from though.

As for why I made the edit, those numbers have been changed back and forth so many times, I can't keep track of it all, but 6.2 (as compared to 6.2 million) is obviously wrong. I was dashing off to work, so didn't have time to check the history, but it seemed that after 4 edits, when the "million" was still removed rather than relocated, it was more likely that reverting was the better idea than picking at parts. Was I wrong? -Bbik 03:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Then... how do the higher numbers seem to be the ones cited? If those numbers are too high, how come they aren't replaced with cited lower ones? And if you're convinced those numbers are too high, how come even you're reverting back to them? -Bbik 17:20, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jevrem

Možeš li da dođeš na srpsku wikipediju i odgovoriš na pitanja? Ajd pozdrav. --BokicaK 21:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The most neutral comprehensive history of Kosovo

Author of the article made some serious errors which only prove that his knowledge of Serbian history isn’t comprehensive (I know, the article is about Kosovo and not about Serbia, but history of this two regions is inseparable). Some of the historic facts he misrepresented are well known to any school kid in Serbia. I’ll just name few, and try not to be boring.

In the first Balkan War of 1912 Albania was attacked by Montenegro, Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece. The Albanians were allied with the Ottomans. Serbs joined the army in large numbers to avenge the Serbian defeat by the Turks at the Battle of Kosovo Polje.
The Albanians fought fiercely but lost the war and Kosovo came under Serbian authority.

At the beginning of the first Balkan war, Albania didn’t exist as an independent state. Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria and Greece didn’t start a war against Albania but against Ottoman Empire. Main goal of this war was liberation of occupied territories in Balkan, not only Kosovo (Serbia considered as occupied territories Sandzak, Kosovo and Metohija and Macedonia). Maybe there was Albanians in Turk army but they all wore Turkish uniforms and fought under the Turkish flag.

At the beginning of the war Bosnia-Herzegovina had been annexed by and was under the rule of Austria-Hungary.(World War I)

Bosnia and Herzegovina was annexed in 1908. not at the beginning of the war.

Austria-Hungarian and Bulgarian troops moved into Kosovo. The Serb armies were beaten decisively and in what is known as " The Great Serbian Retreat" made a disastrous trek across Kosovo and the snow- covered mountains of Albania.

What about two great victories of the Serbian army? According to the author Austro-Hungarian and Bulgarian armies just walked in to the Kosovo. Germany played significant role in Serbian defeat but there is no mention of that.

The army was accompanied by thousands of Serb civilians who were terrified by what they had heard about the fate of Belgium at the hands of the Axis powers.

Belgium? Serbian citizens fled the country because they were terrified by atrocities committed by Austro-Hungarian army in region of Macva during Kolubara battle in 1914. Dr. Archibald Reiss wrote extensively about these atrocities.

After the tide of battle turned against Austria-Hungary in 1918 the Serb army took revenge massacring women and children and destroying homes.

I couldn’t find any source that confirmed this statement. There are no references even on Wikipedia. Advancing army always commits atrocities but I don’t believe that English and French officers advancing together with Serbian army would allow this. Serbian army was even stopped from entering Bulgarian territory in fear that it would commit atrocities in revenge for Bulgarian crimes committed over Serbian people in Macedonia during occupation.

Most of Kosovo was occupied by Albania except for the important mining region which remained under German control. (World War II)

After April war and Yugoslav defeat, most of Kosovo was occupied by Italy. SS Skenderbeg division was mentioned in chapter Post-war Yugoslavia (very interesting).

Just prior to the end of the war Tito launched a major offensive against the Germans using impressed Albanian troops as well as Serbs. The Yugoslav army also arrested prominent Albanians and collected weapons house to house in Kosovo. The Kosovars responded with a general rebellion against the Partisans which was brutally put down by Tito and his forces with massacres and many atrocities. The National Democratic Committee of Albanians estimated that 48,000 Albanians lost their lives in the six months of fighting that ensued.

This is the Balli Kombetar uprising I was talking about.

There is no mention about the irredentist movement in Kosovo during 70’ and 80’. This movement existed and I could probably find more sources that will confirm that, but what’s the point.

History is really a whore.

Your answer isn’t quite clear to me, but at least you honored me with it. Do you mean that I make up facts and that I need a lesson from Kosovo history? --Marko M 22:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More

If you have time please read this.[23] It’s an interesting story about relations between Kingdom of Serbia and young Albanian state before and during World War I. Of course, nothing of this was mentioned in articles about Kosovo or Albania.--Marko M 12:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo compromise

Heard about this one yet? —Nightstallion (?) 14:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chatter

Please do not use talk pages such as User talk:Bosniak and User talk:Nightstallion for general discussion. They are not to be used as a forum or chat room. See here for more information. Thank you. —Psychonaut 20:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Bosniak's Reply: Hi Pax, here are my new responses: one, two, three, four (people disagree with Psychonaut). Bosniak 02:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Montenegrin constitution

What's the status? —Nightstallion (?) 14:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PaxEquilibrium

I labled you're edit as vandalism because I felt it was in the strictest sense. You were attempting to degrade the article with POV and unofficial claims, I don't want an edit war either, but we have sources as well as internation recognition, you shouldn't be allowed to tamper with this. Thank you.

[edit] Mapa

"What happened to your map of the upper Dalmatian Slavic duchies???"

Ma...prebacili su je na commons, onda je izgleda neko tamo nešto zeznuo i budale je obrisale. Ubaciću je ponovo na en Wiki (jebo ih commons). PANONIAN 12:47, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikify erasure

1. These questions will remain timely for ten days, or until June 14. Thank you for your time and patience.

2. Recently (within about the last week) a "Wikify" box appeared at the top of the History of Tunisia page with the message that there may be duplication of another article or articles, which were not named. I had earlier contributed the pre-Islamic history sections (Early History, Carthage, Roman Province of Africa) and the short intro.

So three days ago (June 1), I wrote under the discussion file tab, seeking an explanation and questioning the appropriateness of the tag, since it would be peculiar that there should be no pre-Islamic history of a country. I did note that there were pre-existing pages (the Carthage page), but which has a different focus; I suggested that two such two pages should co-exist, perhaps linked with a "Main Artile" reference message.

There has been no response. I tried to understand who posted the tag by searching in the history file tab, so I could contact the tagger directly, but I could not determine who it was... it may have been a robot.

I tried out to see if I could just erase this "Wikify" box, and it appears that I can erase it. Yet, would it be appropriate, ethical, courteous to do so? How long should I wait for a response to my comments in the discussion file? Especially here, where the person did not contact me before tagging the page--of course, it could have been a robot.

If no one responds my inclination is to erase it, as the tag has been addressed by my comments.

3. May I erase my previous comments on the discussion page? It regards questions I once had but which I was able to answer subsequently.

P.S. About adopting a new user, I am still too new to have the required skills to do so. Also, I am getting too busy in the foreseeable near future. I would like to give back to Wikipedia by helping others when I feel able enough. Otherwise, I might well end up asking you what the adoptee is asking me. That way I would learn more quickly. Of course, if you would be willing to put up with such a situation for awhile, then I would feel more qualified to volunteer to adopt a newer, or younger, user. However, I see you yourself are taking a break from Wikipedia; perhaps later this year it might work out.

P.S.S. Again, thank you very much! Elfelix 18:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Montenegrin racism

I never thought that one day I will be reading something like this... I just received this excerpt from a Montenegrin extremist, and it appears that I was never aware that we are superior to other nearby ethnicities and nations :). This is a part of controversial research by Carleton Stevens Coon, "The Races of Europe". Just take a look and see what a fun time this guy had interpreting this into his theory... ;)

"...The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe, live on a barren limestone mountain upland, where they, for centuries, succeeded in maintainingnheir Christianity and their freedom while surrounded by the Turks...Although the Montenegrins are divided geographically into several sections, the racial differences between these are not great, and for the present purpose the Montenegrins will be dealt with as a whole. Where there are regional differences, the Old Montenegrins, who show the most extreme development in typically Montenegrin characters, will be referred to.

The mean stature of adult male Montenegrins reaches the figure of 177 cm., and in some districts it rises to 178 cm. The mean weight of a large series whose average age is 40 years is 160 lbs.; hence they are probably the heaviest as well as the tallest people in Europe, being even heavier than the Irish. Although their legs are very long, their trunks are correspondingly high, and a mean relative sitting height of 52 is at least 4 points higher than that for the long-legged Tuareg, who are the only white people of pure Mediterranean origin to approach them in stature. The Montenegrins' mean shoulder breath is 39 cm., and their chests are correspondingly large. The relative span of 101 is extremely low, indicat-ing that their arms are short in proportion to either leg or trunk length. The hands and feet are, as is to be expected, usually of great size. These huge mountaineers are not as a rule slender, leptosome people; they are often thick-set, and are large all over...

...The widest faces, the shortest faces, and the lowest upper facial indices, as well as the widest foreheads and jaws, are concentrated in the southwest, Old Montenegro. These excesses are not typically Dinaric; they suggest only one possible relationship, and that is with the unreduced Upper Palaeolithic races...

The Montenegrins, after a detailed examination, are seen to be far from typical Dinarics in many features; they are too large-bodied, too large-headed, and too broad-faced; their noses are too frequently broad and thick-tipped. They are also far too rufous for the ordinary Dinaric type. Taking the Montenegrins individually, one finds many who do conform to standard Dinaric specifications, but are all taller than most Dinarics elsewhere; there are also some short, thick-set Alpines, and a minority of tall, brunet dolichocephals or near dolichocephals whom we shall also find farther south in Albania. But the Montenegrin of distinctive type, concentrated in Old Montenegro, is a very tall, large-bodied man, with a large, full-vaulted head abbreviated at the rear; his face is very broad, his jaw heavy, his brows overhanging, and his nose large and thick-tipped. It is this type which bears the rufosity in hair color, the freckling, and a tendency to light-mixed eye color. Most of the Montenegrins are intermediate between this type and a more conventional Dinaric...

The Old Montenegrin type, concentrated in the southwestern mountain fringe of Montenegro, just north of the Lake of Scutari, in the most conservative part of the kingdom culturally, and the ethnic center of the Montenegrin nation, is nothing more nor less than a local unreduced brachycephalized Upper Palaeolithic survival or reemergence, comparable to those found in northern Europe and northern Africa. Its growth to an extreme size is a local specialization, in which selection may have played a part, as well possibly as nutritive factors associated with life on a limestone mountain. Mixture with this Borreby-like type, and a response to the same selective and environmental influences, have elevated the stature of the accompanying Dinaric factor as well. Montenegro is not, therefore, simply a Dinaric nucleus; it is a Borreby-like or Afalou-like outcropping within a Dinaric nucleus. We know little or nothing of the prehistoric archaeology of Montenegro. So far there is no evidence to prove or disprove the presence of an Upper Palaeolithic European racial strain in this region. How this strain got to Montenegro, far from its other centers of survival, is a problem which cannot be solved without further facts."

I don't want to bother bolding the parts we was pointing out, but You get the point, I'm pretty sure... :) Sideshow Bob 02:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

No, it wasn't Critikal1, but someone else, he is not a Wikipedia user... About the term...well, it suggests that the language stated in the table is the only spoken one, so it doesn't give a truthful picture of distrubution of languages. Sideshow Bob 10:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Umm... I don't know what your intentions were, but it didn't look very well expressed. I might have used a wrong term, but it was some sort of a weasel word, the word that gives a casual reader a wrong idea that, for example, people in different Montenegrin municipalities speak different languages(something like those Indonesian tribes:).
I don't personally know the person who sent me this, but it was excerpted and distributed on some forums by a guy named Ivan Mrvaljevic. He has nothing to do with Wikipedia, I was just amused by his findings so I decided to share 'em. ;) Sideshow Bob 19:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Here are some links: [24] (forum discussion I was referring to). What surprised me the most is the fact that many websites are actually using this thesis, such as [25], [26], [27], etc.
And yeah, it's Petar, not Ivan Mrvaljevic, if it makes any difference... ;) And, if you're wondering, I'm not even registered at that forum, so I was not involved in the discussion. Sideshow Bob 20:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey, did you really have to revert those nice edits at Milo Djukanovic page? It's not like the vandal was lying about something... :) Cheers. Sideshow Bob 19:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HolyRomanEmperor

It took me a substantial period of time to realize the fact that you are the very same user as the veteran HRE. Your way of writing resembled so much that of "his", so I visited the user page which in turn redirected to paxequlibrium, mystery solved! Ancient Land of Bosoni

I guess it does, if I recall correctly, you and I did come along quite good. I remember you as one of the few fairly sane users. In contrast, there are so many "editors" these days who have only read one single book in the topic and base their complete theory on it, it's as if they are receptive only to the theories that suit their political agenda, which is so very distant from what history and social sciences actually are about. Ancient Land of Bosoni

[edit] Okay, here we go

Your momemnt of truth has came. Please give me direct answer. Thanks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bosniak#Jasenovac Bosniak 00:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] At start

Than you for welcome note, I think that my help will be useful to Wiki. Best regards PetarC 12:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Interest?

What do you mean by that question? Am I not allowed to? --Happyman22 17:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My reaction

I know, but I just get ticked off when I read stuff like that. Rulers of Serb lands... While Petrovic dinasty was ruling sovereignly, Serbian rulers were subjected to the sultan. "Serbdom" as vladika Rade viewed it, has nothing with today's meaning of that word, and that's why I get annoyed by such assimilation attempts and for example people telling me that there was no such thing as Montenegrins until SFRY was created in 1945. Sideshow Bob 18:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UN/Dutch

Hi Pax, can you do me a favor? I would like you to post your opinion in "Comments" section of my blog @ U.N. & Dutch Cowards on Trial. First read the article about the UN/Dutch failures. (PS: you don't have to register to post, just sign your name). Bosniak 01:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue XV (May 2007)

The May 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

This is an automated delivery by grafikbot 15:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Opposition

I would like to see a coalition between PzP, LP and SNP... But as corrupt as this govt. is, I think that Serbian List, DSS and NS in power wouldn't do a better job. All what's needed is a good nationwide campaign before the election, which would help open people's eyes on how bad this government is doing, and present a decent alternative to it. But, as long as people sell their votes for an electric bill, I don't see how that alternative can take over. My hopes (and vote:) are with them, though... ;) Sideshow Bob 03:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Results of the Wikipedia study

Hi Pax, you can find the results of the Wikipedia study here, on the research home page. Thank you for your great patience. I know this is long overdue. --WikiInquirer 09:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History of Serbia

Agreement has been reached about that question. About your question this is my answer using example:

During wars position of Serbia has been that regions in Croatia (and Bosnia) where Serbs are majority need to stay in "Yugoslavia" (Great Serbia ?). On other side where inside of Serbia (Kosovo) Serbs are minority they must stay in Yugoslavia (Great Serbia) because this is Serbian historical province. My point is if they have say we will make new borders only looking nationality then I will say they have been "honest" but it is not possible that they have been honest when they ask 1 rule is good for us and another for others.

Do you question my text where I have writen that Republica Srpska has made genocide or UN resolutions ? You must say what you think is not OK.

If I have resolutions of UN that Serbia has attacked Bosnia then Serbia is attacker or you maybe think like PANNONIAN that UN is POV and his looking is not POV. For 95 % of thing which I write I have independent sources. When I say independent I want to say that it is ulmost not possible to defeat them. I do not understand why people from Serbia play stupid today and say we have not attacked Bosnia. For example we from Croatia know very good that we have attacked Bosnia in short 12 month war (1993)--Rjecina 15:55, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Your point that Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia has right to secede can be OK if this has been in Yugoslav constitution, but in my knowledge this has not been writen. On other side republic has right to secede (writen in constitution) from Yugoslavia if they want !--Rjecina 14:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
After looking 30 minutes on internet I have find constitution on Slovenian language. This is too great problem to read so I have taken shortcut. Arbitration Commission of the Peace Conference on the former Yugoslavia has come to conclusion after looking to constitution that Yugoslavia is dying and that borders between republic are becoming state borders. Other conclusion is that Serbs and other nation do not have right to secede from Croatia or Bosnia (only this 2 has been in question). For end I will give you credit that republics has been without constituiton rights to declare independence but ... --Rjecina 15:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

My old personal thinking (around 10 years old) is that only thing possible for Yugoslavia to exist has been creation of 2 house parliament. Higher house of parliament in that is house of republic (every republic for example is giving 10 members) and other is house of people (example 200 000 people = 1 member). Must important thing is that they both must vote yes for law to pass. In 1990 - 1991 nobody in my knowledge has been speaking about that. Only options has been 1 person 1 vote (Serbian position) and Confederation (Slovenia-Croatia position). It is hard to think about yourself like yugoslav when this state do not exist any more. When I see PANONIAN sources (books) I do not know to laugh or to cry. Must of his sources are from period of indoktrination (in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia) where state has writen new/old history to be OK with today situation. I do not trust history books from Croatia or Serbia if they are writen/made (maybe new version of old books) after 1986-87 --Rjecina 1:07, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

After little looking (I have been on wiki vacation 2 weeks) I can say that you have been right about "Yugoslav" parlament of Serbia and Montenegro. My only comment is that this is only evidence that constitution (about parlament) and good will has been needed for peace. Problem has been that Milosevic has been without good will which has been very clear with this state of Serbia and Montenegro. 1 state with 2 economic policy ! I do not believe that you will agree with me but this has been old problem from 1988 - 1989. In the end we have all recieved bill because comunist leaders have not wanted to listen minister of defence which has ulmost from first day attacked Milosevic and demanded that he be taken from power. In the end he has be send to pension and Kadijević has come....--Rjecina 16:24, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
With 1 state 2 economic policy I have wanted to say that Serbia has been having dinar, but Montenegro euro (and before deutch mark). You can read about that on Montenegro article. My first thinking that Yugoslavia is going to hell it has not been in time of war but when Serbia (or you will say Milošević) has made fraud of 2 000 000 000 $ with printing of Yugoslav dinar without permison of Yugoslav goverment. --Rjecina 3:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rjecina

Ne znam gde i kome tačno da ga prijavim. Međutim, ako nastavi sa svojim ponašanjem od poslednjih par dana, nešto će se stvarno morati uraditi u vezi ovog korisnika jer njegovo ponašanje veoma šteti ugledu Vikipedije. PANONIAN 19:21, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serbian presidential election

I've recreated the article, but you need to give me some cites that it *has* to be held in 2007; else, it's just going to get deleted again. —Nightstallion (?) 17:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SDP moving away from DPS?

In last session of the Parlaiment DPS remained without their support on the issue of selling the Pljevlja powerplant. This proves that DPS alone can't stay in power after next election. The question, however, is whether SDP will have enough guts, so to speak, to finally separate itself from DPS, and help change the govt. Sideshow Bob 19:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What should we do

I've just run across a highly dubitable "history" article, created yesterday by User:Brunodam, who has been editing Montenegrin articles recently in order to emphasize Venetian impact on us. The article I'm most concerned about is Venetian albania-montenegro. I'll let you handle it, 'cause I'm sure you'll know what to do... ;) Sideshow Bob 22:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:

It was added by anons and I wasn't sure how credible it was. I readded it anyway. -- Aivazovsky 22:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:

Truthfully, at times, it seems like they are Serb nationalists but I know that they aren't really. It looks like they will be the leaders to crush the government though. I truthfully just want DPS and only DPS out. SDP is pretty neutral in the whole business, thank God. "successful test by the government to crush the opposition", what's that all about? PZP practically hates DPS and DPS is in the government (the majority as a matter of fact). BTW, DPS has been in power for way too long (since 1945) and now I think it's time for them to leave. They are ruining the reputation of Montenegro as seen with Milo's struggle for the sale of Pljevlja's power plant or whatever it is. Milo thinks his puppets will get away with ruling Montenegro forever, forget it. Filip, thank God, is distancing himself from Milo and so is SDP.

Milo has gone insane with bringing in Russians. Russians for God's sake! That's what's causing the prices in Montenegro to jump way too high. The economy will never prosper like that since people work to make like what €500 a month, which is relatively nothing compared to the prices now in Montenegro. You can spend that €500 in one night on practically nothing. It will soon come time where Montenegro will be too expensive for Montenegrins to live there anymore. Either that, or a worst case scenario, Montenegro's economy drops to a point where everyone will be broke. Advice for Milo and the Government, they should just steadily decrease the economy to a point where it can steadily grow the right way, not too fast and give enough time for everyone to adjust to its steady rise. BTW, on the coast, the prices have gone outrageous. Local Montenegrins on the coast even complain about the high prices. I swear, the economy will never prosper like this and Montenegro is becoming too expensive way too fast.

DPS should run to safety while they still can before they are ousted from the government and deeply humiliated and embarrassed.

Ever heard Đuro Palica's song [28] that's supposed to represent Montenegro in Jugovizija 2007, it involves Milo and the government in it or Ludi Milojko's song [29]that's supposed to represent Serbia in that same "competition", it mentions Montenegro illegal business with cigarette smuggling. --CrnaGora 00:12, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Knock-knock!

Hey man, are you alive? I haven't heard back you for quite some time. Keep in touch, you know my user page address. Drop me a line or drop me a map or whatever. Bosniak 00:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] You are making me ill

Stop with that translation thing. I have given you a summery and you said ok. You know I don't like to right long eng text because I am not so good in English. Please stop with your comments about translating a comment I made months ago. I get angry when you all the time come and leaves these ridiculous messages --Noah30 21:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gazimestan speech

hello, you can a lot about history and have a lot of time. Could you take a look at this article: Gazimestan speech. I and ChrisO thinks it is biased and uses unreliable and not verified sources. Kind regards --Noah30 06:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Umm, not quite. The section that you're complaining about is one that I wrote in its entirety and it's fully sourced to reliable sources, not the flaky Gil-White essay. -- ChrisO 07:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

_______________________

Hey, take a look at my comment above under "What should we do?", I guess you missed it, and I didn't want to open yet another one section on your talk page. Cheers. Sideshow Bob 16:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Got another one!

Good news. :) —Nightstallion 10:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, but that doesn't make Mladic any less in refuge. --PaxEquilibrium 10:57, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Albania veneta

Yeah, and he keeps removing the tags from the top of the article, saying we should stop "vandalising the voice"... Hey, is there a way to check if Dalmata is a sockpuppet of Brunodam, since they seem like the same person, and never contribute at the same time. It might be possibble that our professor logs on one account from home, and on another one, say, at work. Also, that article still desperately needs cleanup. Sideshow Bob 14:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if we have enough evidence for that yet. Also, I reported his violation of WP:3RR to the admins, and am waiting for the decision. However, I'm 99,9% sure that Dalmata and Brunodam indeed are the same person, because it would be too big of a coincidence for two people to have so similar and so extreme pints of view on this issue. Also, Dalmata practically appeared outta nowhere and suddenly found this article particularly interesting... Suspicious? I think so... :) Sideshow Bob 19:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The funny thing is that I noted his 4th revert just seconds after you wrote that he needs 4 of them to violate 3RR :)... Also, note that he asked another user, not only Italian, but a proud Venetian, according to his userpage, to help him out with this issue...

And one more thing, if 4 reverts are needed to break the rule - then why the heck is it called three-revert rule? :) Sideshow Bob 19:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Why you both don't think that YOU are breaking the WP:3RR ? Brunodam--Brunodam 20:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 24h block of Sideshow Bob?

Excuse me for objecting administrator, but I think you have made a mistake. User:Sideshow Bob did not violate the 3RR rule. --PaxEquilibrium 21:30, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you (and him) are correct. I have unblocked him. -- tariqabjotu 21:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey man, thanks for helping out with that, I was surprised with the block also... :) But even now, the article is still in the biased, Brunodam's form. And one more thing, after he has been confirmed a sockpuppeter, the sock gets blocked and he just...walks away without any sanctions? Sideshow Bob 16:25, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:ForCeha.jpg

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[edit] List of flags of Montenegro

Dear PaxEquilibrium! You'd now added two competing "state flags". I understand that the plain flag with ratio 2:3 was only an alternate civil ensign. Right? --Camptown 23:20, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Not competing any more. ;) BTW, do you know why the two state flags (i.e. state flags of 1901 and 1905 respectively) were plain? Camptown 23:31, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Hmm..., I added a tricolor (without the cypher H.I.) mentioned in the German Flag book as an unofficial merchant flag (civil ensign). The book doesn't mention the use of traditional "state flags" along with the royal flags during the time of the Kindom of Montenegro, and the "long" tricolor (ratio 1:3) is clained to be an invention of a later date, which is actually strange as the light "blueish" color in that flag is claimed to be a "traditional" color in Montenegro....--Camptown 17:10, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Commercial use of Image:KraljevinaDvorska.jpg

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[edit] Commercial use of Image:Nikolina.jpg

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[edit] Montenegrin flags

Hmm... I didn't delete any flags, I just moved the trade flag down to the civil ensign section and changed its use describtion from "Naval and trade" (what exactly is that?) to "civil ensign". I you feel that the term civil ensign doesn't cover the use of that particular flag, feel free to revert my edit (I trust you know much more about Montenegrin flags than I do). As to the copyright tag: the flags were probably deleted because they had been copied from FOTW website (pretty awkward as FOTW uses lots of material "stolen" from Wikipedia!). If there are specific copyright provisions for the State of Montenegro putting national flags and state symbols into the public domain, we'd better create a specific Montenegro-Public-Domain-tag. That tag should have proper reference to the current Montenegrin copyright legislation (possibly still Yugoslav legislation?) with a short explanation in English. --Camptown 22:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, I tagged your images with the "PD-SCGGov"-tag; and for old items: "PD-old"-tag. That should do, I hope... --Camptown 22:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image tagging for Image:Plemena.jpg

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[edit] Serbia

What confusion do you mean? Electionworld Talk? 06:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Montenegrin elections

I don't understand. Were these elections for a Serb minority parliament in the independent Kingdom of Montenegro, or elections for the Kingdom of Montenegro's parliament. If the answer is the former, then they should be deleted, but kept if the latter. Number 57 14:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I would say keep them until you can confirm or correct them (or perhaps someone else will see the red link and be tempted to fill it in; I don't think it matter that you don't have the whole set - at least there is an article for the 1913 one. Number 57 19:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Size isn't everything :) Bizarre how it is called the Serbian National Assembly though. Are you from the area? If so, is there really a difference between Serbs and Montenegrins other than history, or is it just another Romania-Moldova situation? Number 57 20:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
No, I was just happy with your answer :) Number 57 21:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] [Giacomo Micaglia|Mikalja]

Ćao, If you are not too busy, I would like informal opinion from you as potentially partially interested party about edit warring going on that page. On one site there are Kubura, Zmaj, Gonzo, Mir Haven, let's say I'm a little bit towards middle but still on that side, trying to write about a man, on the other side is Giovani Giove, with a little help of Orsini (when 4th revert is needed:-)).

  • I have no relevant information about Mikalja's influence on older Serbian/Montenegrin authors/lexicographers.
  • I have no references to Serbian as Illyrian from 17th or 18th century (of course, does Dubrovnik etc., but leave that at this moment out of this) - do they exist?
  • What is possible to do with Giove pushing aggressively his agenda - instead of biography writing essay about language.

Please answer here, if possible. THX, --Plantago 18:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Pax, thanx. Educational. I've found also nice comparation (Ph.D. thesis) between Pavao Ritter Vitezović and Đorđe Branković (so-called proto-national Illyrists). I've never heard of him before, but he was "faca", as it seems. And, regarding discussion - I've tried - when you don't know what to read, read my essays on talk page:-) BR, --Plantago 21:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo Comment (response)

Hi Pax, I am not sure they are open for any negotiations that would lead to Kosovo "in" Serbia. Consider today's news: "Speaking after talks Friday with the province's Prime Minister Agim Ceku in the Kosovo capital, Pristina, de Hoop Scheffer said Western powers need more time to guide the independence process through the United Nations. NATO Head Asks Kosovo Albanians for 'Patience' in Quest for Independence or for latest news check Google News: Kosovo. Clearly, the West wants Kosovo independent and they will keep pushing for it. The other thing worth nothing is that Kosovo has been away from Belgrade's reach/control since 1999. Regardless what happens, I am not sure Serbia is willing to accept 2 million Albanians into their demographic picture. Think about it. Bosniak 03:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Djukanovic

Heard the latest news? He'll become president again in early 2008 to evade the criminal charges... sighs —Nightstallion 13:46, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue XVI (June 2007)

The June 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

This is an automated delivery by grafikbot 14:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vilajet

Hm, pogledao sam par knjiga i atlasa, ali ne mogu da nađem podatak kada je tačno Kosovski vilajet osnovan. Pokušaj naći podatak na google search, meni to pomogne u većini sličnih slučajeva. PANONIAN 22:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Prizrenski vilajet je osnovan 1867. a ukinut 1877., pa je iste godine formiran kosovski vilajet sa sedištem u Prištini, s istim sandžacima kao i prizrenski (prizrenski, skopski, debarski i niški). Vidi ovde: [30]. Trt Milojka 23:13, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] VETËVENDOSJE =

Hey Pax. Interesting to hear about this group: any idea what 'JO NEGOCIATA' means on the page? We should really translate that.

My reading of the stalemate in the Security Council is that the US (lacking the support of the EU in any recognition of UDI) will have to put off a resolution until after the Russian presidential elections in March next year (hoping that there will be a change in policy, or that the US can convince Russia to back a resolution or the EU to back a UDI). Of course they'll then need to call for 'new talks' (which will be pretty meaningless) in order to convince the Kosovo Albanian community that something (anything!) is being done.

The risk, of course, is violence in Kosovo against the IC. What do you think the chances of violence are? Will this be relatively spontaneous? Will there be actual military/paramilitary action by armed groups? Is the Albanian National Army still active in Kosovo? You seem to know your stuff on this, so I'm interested to hear your opinion! DSuser 09:30, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


Looks like the next round is on: [[31]]. DSuser 16:34, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map

When I made the map at Image:Breakup of Yugoslavia.gif, I decided against the unofficial entities created during the wars since they were unofficial. The Republika Srpska is on the map but not labeled as such; the IEBL is in light green and the Federation and the RS are both in green to stay neutral.- Thanks, Hoshie 08:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Montenegrin constitution

What's the status? —Nightstallion 15:04, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Ask your local EU representative, they are intensely involved in the matter. The Venice Commission has published its opinion on the current draft constitution in June [32] and the draft is now being amended accordingly. However, several opposition parties have proposed alternatives to several articles [33], that need to be sorted out before proceeding to the voting stage. The Venice Commission has suggested that it would require a two-thirds majority in parliament in order to pass the constitution, but considering the distribution of power in parliament, it's probably going to be a close call. If the parlamentary procedure doesn't work out, most probably a referendum will be held. If that doesn't work out either, I'm sure they'll come up with something else. So please be patient! Trt Milojka 17:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hi HRE

I see that you are a keen editor of former Yugoslav articles. I find your contributions insightful and true

As you may or may not know, the kosovo article's history sectrion was summarised. I think your contribution onto the development of tensions over time between Serbs and Albanians (as per your talks with user: Kosovar) should be included. THey are really important if the world is to realise the full story (and not just think that Serbs are a bunch of crazy ethnic cleansers, etc)

Good luck with exams Hxseek 08:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Debate on the correct adjective for Kosovo

Hi! Based on your interest in the Balkans, you may be interested in the currently ongoing debate on whether we should be using Kosovo or Kosovar/Kosovan as the adjective for Kosovo. —Nightstallion 15:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Детаљи око Стефана Немање на ср.вики

Пре доста времена си започео сређивање чланка о Стефану Немањи на ср.вики и том приликом си између осталог навео и да је Манојло Комнин натјерао Првослава, Тихомировог сина, да се званично одрекне насљедства у Немањину корист.

Да ли можда знаш/можеш да се сетиш одакле ти тај податак(треба нам за референцу)?

Поздрав, CrniBombarder!!! Шумски Крст (†) 16:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Можеш ли ми рећи који то(да га је Немања приморао на одрицање) аутор наводи? (Јасна је ствар,али су ови на ср.вики постали цепидлаке за референцама,па зато.) CrniBombarder!!! Шумски Крст (†) 06:00, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Military history WikiProject coordinator selection

The Military history WikiProject coordinator selection process is starting. We are looking to elect nine coordinators to serve for the next six months; if you are interested in running, please sign up here by August 14! Wandalstouring 09:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yet another Afrika paprika sock?

Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Afrika paprika found it likely, that user No.13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) is a sock of the the banned user Afrika paprika (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log). Could you check his edit history to verify that he is indeed AP. -- Petri Krohn 00:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serbian Despots

Article Serbian Despotate is honest. Article History of Vojvodina is misleading (this article is example) because of word ruled in present-day Vojvodina. They have been barons of Hungarian kingdom and Titular despots of Serbia. Barons do not rule. If you want to see example of that situation in western Europe please look article Charles of Valois. He has been titular Latin emperor but in France where he has lived he has been nothing else but count (which is not ruling). All in all I am OK with Serbian despots until 1459. If it is writen that they have ruled after 1459 then it is problem (for me) because if nothing else article is misleading. -- Rjecina 21:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Before answering your points it is important to say that I am from old SFRJ history school. In this books Despotovina is dead in 1459 !! First I have started to answer your point 1 by 1 but then I have deleted that. I am interested to read about:
  • Serbs had special rights, and did not have to pay taxes
  • Remember when the Serb Despot fought with a Hungarian nobleman over Slavonia
if you have internet sources for data.
About your points all are ease to defeat (in my thinking). All nobles (counts, barons,..) of that time are having sources of income , private army and they are giving money to church. How great are this 3 depend on how great are noble estates. About demography I will not start discussion is Serbs are majority in Syrmia and others territory. -- Rjecina 22:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
There is controversy in demography because it is looking that only Serbs are having good demography data for XV century (example). Another reason is Vlach question. How much of ortodox population in Vojvodina (and Bosnia and Croatia and Hungary) have been Serbs and how much ortodox Vlach is question on which will we very hard recieve answer. First population which has Ottoman Empire send (OK this is XVI century) to this states after conquest of territory has been Vlachs. Only after that there is comming of Serbs and ortodox Vlachs assimilation to Serbs. Problem with census even if data is good (which I do not believe because there is no census data for UK, Hungary or other states of XV-XVI century) that they are speaking about ortodox population or I making mistake. How important is Vlach question I will show you with 1 data. In XVI century Smederevo region there is 82692 Vlach households ( source- Beldiceanu: Sur les valaques des balkans slaves). I do not trust this data like I do not trust other Balkan census data before 1860 but this is only for example of situation. In Serbia state has opened this discussion when they have accepted fact that there is Vlach nation (I think in 2002). You see how much controversy is coming from old demography data ?? -- Rjecina 15:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
About History of Vojvodina problems: ---"titular despots of Serbia ruled"--- (we have spoken about that question), ---"The fact that titular Despots of Serbia ruled in the territory of present-day Vojvodina, but also the presence of large Serb population, are the reasons because in many historical records and maps, which were written and drawn between 15th and 18th centuries, territory of present-day Vojvodina was named Rascia (Serbia) and Little Rascia (Little Serbia)"--- (maps of XV and XVI century where is writen Rascia in Vojvodina), ---Jovan Nenad---(in my thinking only in Serbian mythology rebels which has controled territory 10 months can become Empire) ---"During the Ottoman rule, most of the inhabitants of the territory of present-day Vojvodina region were Serbs"---(from which mythology is this data ?) ---"In 1745, northern Syrmia was incorporated into the Kingdom of Slavonia, a Habsburg land, mainly inhabited by Serbs and Croats (According to 1790 data, population of the Kingdom of Slavonia was composed of: Serbs (46.8%), Croats (45.7%), Hungarians (6.8%)"---(old question from which mythology is this data),---"The emperor also recognized Serbs as one of the official nations of the Habsburg Monarchy and he recognized the right of Serbs to have territorial autonomy within one separate voivodship"---(when ? What is source of this statement ?)---"Darvas, the prime military commander of the Hungarian rebels, which fought against Serbs in Bačka, wrote: "We burned all large places of Rascia, on the both banks of the rivers Danube and Tisa". It is estimated that Hungarian forces killed about 100,000 Serbs"---(source of this fantasy statement), ---"after the Tisa-Moriš section of the Military Frontier was abolished, many Serbs from the north-eastern parts of Bačka left this region and immigrated to Russia"--- (number please and source of statement),---"Novi Sad was the largest Serb city; in 1820 this city had about 20,000 inhabitants, of whom 2/3 were Serbs"---(source of statement).
I will stop with that. My point is that there is no link which is saying that this data is right. To tell truth I having problem with many Serbs users (my discussions, reverts about Croatia and Serbia). They demand that we accept Serbian books which we will never see like Holly Bible, but from me they demand links of statement. Even when I give links many users are deleting statements because links are POV. For example see discussion about Einstein words on Talk:Independent State of Croatia. -- Rjecina 15:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Can you write me internet links about Serbian history (period 1389-1540). About Vojvodina and despots I think that this solution translated on english will be OK:"У доба владавине Бранковића (али под угарском влашћу) над Сланкаменом, деспот Вук Бранковић је подигао Православну цркву 1468 године ...." [[34]] This is saying all about Serbian despots after 1459. Do you agree ??
Problem with 1790 census is that for me is not possible to see that census (source of data) !! Similar stuff is for Vojvodina census data. I do not know if you believe in fact but I am really neutral (or I try to be neutral). Facts in which I am must interested are raw data. This raw census data Croatian historians comments in one way, and serbian in another. If we want truth we need raw data. -- Rjecina 18:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
You know that I think how we all are 1 nation with 3 religions (Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs). Now let speak about our discussions. I have been reading Oporavljena Srbija . My negative comment of this book is that Bosnia, Dubrovnik, Herzegovina, Zeta and Serbia are Serbians lands. My positive comment is more or less clear position of Titular Serbian despots in Vojvodina "držao je kao svoj posed u svojstvu mađarskog vazala i magnata umni srpski gospodar". Lets now speak about articles on english wiki. I am having problem to put on right place in Slavonia Stefan Vladislav II. On english wiki is not writen when he has been ban of Slavonia. On Croatian wiki I am having Slavonian ban Ladislav od plem. Ratold in year 1300 (only that is writen). If this is that then we can write in article Serbs of Croatia, something like Serbian prince Vladislav has been ban of Slavonia in period 1299 - 1301 (on Croatian wiki is not writen who is ban in period 1299 - 1300 and 1300 - 1301 (we are having bans in 1298-99 and 1301 - 09 so we can say that Vladislav has been ban in 1299 -1301)
Maybe you can look little article Creation of Yugoslavia. I and 1 hungarian user are having edit wars with PANONIAN. Position of PANONIAN is that Serbs have been relative majority (and not small relative majority) in Banat, Bačka and Baranja on territory given to Yugoslavia with peace agreements. Problem is that Hungarians have been very small relative majority in this territory. To evade this question I have wanted to write neutral solution which is speaking that South Slavs have been relative majority (this is version from 16:28, 23 August) in this region but PANONIAN has reverted this text so my last version is having stronger words. Census data like writen by PANONIAN on wiki have been put by me on discussion page of this article. What you think about my solution ??
OK I will delete Greater Serbia support for my user page (I have taken that from another user). All in all last days I am angry when I think about user page. 1 User has deleted logo for Windows Vista because it is not allowed to write logo and then spoke bad about Vista. -- Rjecina 00:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] re: flag incident

Oh, sorry, no, I didn't...? --Joy [shallot] —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 19:02, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

I guess they put it there just to make fun of him. I do wonder how an SRS member ever came to the possession of a Croatian flag - I would think that they would risk losing face before their peers if they were caught doing such a thing :) --Joy [shallot] 21:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Military history WikiProject coordinator election

The Military history WikiProject coordinator election has begun. We will be selecting nine coordinators from a pool of fourteen candidates to serve for the next six months. Please vote here by August 28! Kirill 01:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Creation of Yugoslavia

Everything writen about Montenegro is from serbian wiki :)) This is link [35] . About Vojvodina I hope that PANONIAN will understand that this province in peace agreements is given to Yugoslavia so it is only important that South Slavs are majority (for around 80 000 - 100 000 people). You can say that my edit wars with him are only about fact that he want to show how Vojvodina has been always Serbian land.

About that edit war (and others) I think that we need to have agreement between Croatian and Serbian editors. You can say that we can try to put together 3 editors from one and other state which will try to make neutral decision about edit wars. It will be even better if editors from Croatia write croatian articles (about Croatia history) and editors from Serbia write articles about serbian history. If we continue to do old way then for users from EU we are nothing more but nationalistic barbarians. ---Rjecina 14:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes this is idea, but in my thinking it will be very hard to become reality. Even if we make decission I am sure that there will be hot heads which will create problem. About users from Serbia from our discussions in article Nikola Tesla I think OK about Ђорђе Д. Божовић .
Comment of Greater Serbia from my user space is irony. I can explain why but in my thinking it is not important. ---Rjecina 23:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
If you have been reading my comments of talk page of Croatophobia then you know my thinking about that..
We are having problem ?? I will need to delete all data from article Serbs of Croatia where is writen that Vladislav has been ban of Slavonia. Original source is writen in bad faith and it is misleading. In this book [[36]] it is writen:

"S toga Vladislav dobija od anžujske strane 19. avgusta 1292. god. vojvodstvo cele Slavonije sem oblasti koje su već pripadale knezovima Vodičkim i Frankopanima" This is false !! You know why ? Person which has created him vojvoda or ban has been Charles Martel titular king of Hungary. I hope that you understand that in 1292 king of Hungary has been Andrew III so this title is false or in best thinking only titular. Maybe this has explained little my thinking about this book ??

Polls for NATO support have been false. Because nobody has believed in this numbers company which has made poll has been under pressure to explain in which way poll is made. They have refused to say that telling that only Sanader which has paid for poll can say in which way it has been done. ---Rjecina 20:17, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
About Croatia editors which write about Croatia and Serbian about Serbian thinking is that we write about our today territory. If there is problem like Syrmium then we will need to firn compromise. Other possibility is that we created historical editorial board for ex Yugoslavia (say example 6 - 10 members) and then we find solution for revert wars. If we have agreement then we enforce that agreement ? ---Rjecina 20:23, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I will try to explain my thinking that data about Vladislav duke of Slavonia is false and misleading. During Hungarian civil war Charles Martel of Anjou has been accepted for King of Croatia (and Hungary) in Dalmatia and Croatia, but not in Slavonia. He has in that time (1290 - 1293 ?) support of Pavao Bribirski ban of Dalmatia and Croatia and church of Zagreb. Ban of Slavonia is Radoslav Babonić and he is loyal to Andrew III together with his dynasty and dynasty Kačić [37]. Because of this facts Vladislav has been titular ban (duke ??) and nothing else. Data in book is right and misleading. They write how prince Charles Martel has given to Vladislav more or less all Slavonia, but they do not write that in this time Radoslav Babović is "ruling" Slavonia. You will agree that this is little misleading ??
In my thinking Wikipedia:WikiProject Former Yugoslavia is joke! Why ?? I will give only example of PANONIAN. When has he been for peaceful cooperation, coordination and news-sharing. You can give how much data you want but he will never accept this data if he do not like what it is writen. I want to see users which can accept raw data even if they are bad for them.
You will not believe but I support Sanader goverment. You know why ?? I have earned money on INA stocks and I will make money on HT stocks. All politicians are stealing (my personal thinking) but I will make money if he win. SDP want to create tax on stocks profit. On other side I do not like right wing goverment. You know what I hate more of that ? Left wing party which is left only in name (SDP in Croatia, SPD in Germany, Labour in UK). If we look communism of 1960 - 90 and today democracy I think that communism is innocent like baby why ? I will tell you joke of Soviet ambassador in USA: When US journalist has attacked (late 1970s) him that Soviet Union is 1 party state where nobody is allowed to think different his answer has been:"This is lie. In Soviet Union you can think what you want, if you think different you will be in prison but you will be free to think what you want". Point is that even in democracy prison for person is not allowed to think what he want. There is so great propaganda that he will in the end think what goverment want. In the end Croatia will enter NATO and it is not important what people now think because they will think "right" in near future. I do not like this sort of democracy and I do not vote.
When Kosovo question is solved then idea of Greater Serbia will be dead and we will all live in peace. Because of that this irony has been on my user page. You know that only Croatian reason (in politican words) for entry to NATO is Serbia will not attack us if we are in NATO !! For today enough. ---Rjecina 14:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Project is joke because in my thinking we need to accept arguments of one-another. If member is refusing that (like PANONIAN) then project is joke.
In my thinking nationalism in Serbia will be lower and be similar to Croatian nationalism when Kosovo problem will be solved and we will together go toward European version of nationalism (OK I think bad about EU nationalism because it is to weak).
Sanader words about NATO: "Velika Srbija jest mrtva, ali stranka koja promiče tu ideologiju dobila je najviše glasova. Da smo 1991. godine bili članica NATO-a..."Zašto sada u NATO ? [38]. What you say about this words ??
Corović book is interesting but is needed great lookings during reading. I think that you will not agree but book is writing true facts with misleading facts (like Vladislav) so that Serbia and Serbs are becoming better, greater. Simple he is inteligent person which has refused to lie (when is possible) so it has used half truth in writing books. You are having many similar nationalistic writers in other states (Croatia...). OK this is my thinking. ---Rjecina 18:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, for my intervention. But, this man hase right it was and it is a manipulation. Serbian state exist since 600???? (see the definition of Srare from latai Etat). Be cool and think a litet, since witch time the peopel hase startit to say my nation, our state and so one. The motto it wous "For the King and Got", it wouse not "For the peopel and Fatherland" till the peopel diden wountit to make war for the King. Today they make War not for "Nation" how the komunist time say but for the "Nation" how the Capitalismus say, for the Boss of the Workplease. We are going bake to the Lazar time, the peopel meake war for the "Lazar markTM" not, no one serbian Capitalist dont wount to make ware for the serbian cultur and in Kosovo dont exist no serbian markt. Perhaps tomorow the Church in Decan is going to bee a turistik markt for the peopel like you. But, for the serbian peopel in Kosovo this is importen to live in peace and dont make ware for the Boss who pay some mony to the Belgrads politicans. I am a Albaner and my interes is to late the peopel of Balkan to live in Peace, beacose I it was hart for me to see the spirt of normal peopel (beliveng the propagander from 1500-1600 or 1800-1900) in the hand of the Killers witch today seat and drink caffe . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.70.179.77 (talk) 21:20, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

About NATO and Sanader there is no need to think serious about his words. He is having problem. He need to give reason to people so that they support entry to NATO. We see today only Croatian forces in Iraq, military spending and US forces which will be allowed to kill people in Croatia with immunity. When I say kill I think about car accidents, typical soldiers pleasure (rape) and similar stuff. From time to time we are having US ships which visit are ports so we know story. U mom gradu je sada već prije nekog vremena američki vojnik provalio u stan na 5 katu (02:00-03:00) jer je vidio dobar komad kako se kreće po gradu pa je poželio produbiti poznanstvo. Provalio je preko prozora ?? Rezultat vojnik je odmah prepušten amerikancima a njegov zapovjednik se došao izviniti u stan noseći pare. Other stuff which Sanader and SDP are speaking is that NATO will not create base in Croatia. It is funny how we will enter NATO when our people "hate" foreign soldiers ?? To finish this long NATO story we in Croatia do not see what is benefit of NATO and even SDP and HDZ know that there is no clear benefit so they play story about old dangerous Serbia from which NATO will protect us. It is really sad. You (and I) can think what we want but only croatian person koji je ispunio izborna obećanja je Franjo Tuđman. His promise has been independent Croatia ! Račan promise has been we will punish Croatian tycoons for stealing in privatization. What is promise of your politicans and what has been election promise of Milošević ?
I have asked 2 users which are declaring themself Montenegrin to enter our discussion on article Creation of Yugoslavia (Montenegro question). You now my thinking we write about our country. Maybe they will have something interesting confirmed with sources to say ?
You still use from time to time C-64 ? I use from time to time Amiga 1200 (nostalgija) ---Rjecina 17:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Ne sjećam se dobro da li je bila 1997 ili 1998 kada je u Italiji američki vojni avion srušio žičaru i ubio 40 ljudi. Pilote (dvosjed) je sudio američki vojni sud, a presuda je glasila da nisu krivi. Po meni zaključak ispadne da je kriva žičara. About rape situation is much easier. You need only to go on Google and write US soldier rape and name of state. You will recieve informations.
Political program of Franjo Tuđman in 1990 has been independent Croatia. Political program of Ivica Račan in 1999 has been we will put in prison tycoons which has become rich during privatization. Political program of Sanader has been Croatia in EU. Now tell who has been honest ?? What has been political program of Koštunica and has he done job ?? My political thinkings is what PR now call extreme left. Why ? Because I am against NATO and I support that persons with greater income need to pay greater taxes.
About Montenegro my only defense is thinking that persons which declare themself Montenegrin will give sources that annexation has been illegal. In my thinking you will give sources that it has been legal so we will have everything needed for neutral part of article. I have asked even Aleksandar from Serbian wiki to come on discussion page of article and start writing comments. He is original editor on serbian wiki so I am interested if he is having sources..
For the moment I am interested to know who is my vandal..---Rjecina 02:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for comment on PANONIAN discussion page but there have not been need for data. I have wanted now to write thanks to PANONIAN because in his writing he is saying that I am genius which can write (revert) 2 articles in 1 minute with 2 user names:)) Now serious I am thinking that my vandal is user:Roramaster (80 %), PANONIAN (10%) or somebody other (10 %). About your political question ???? How is possible to say that user which support extreme left is supporting extreme right (HSP) ?? This thinking is very bad ... For you information HSP support NATO. You have not answered what has been must important political promise of Serbian politicans which has win elections ?? Entry to EU, Kosovo is part of Serbia or maybe Milošević promise before has been protection of Serbs in other states ?? What has been political program  ? ---Rjecina 16:17, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aleksanders

If I have to chose between Aleksandar Stamboliyski and Aleksandar Tsankov, it's doubtlessly Stamboliyski. He may have been controversial, but as a whole he was at least partially successful. Don't be mislead by the Wikipedia article, it is somewhat POV. But Tsankov was a terrorist and later a Nazi :)

By the way, in order to be entirely precise, Aleksandar Malinov also had a short term as PM between the world wars. Best, Todor→Bozhinov 21:04, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Answer

You have a answer, see:User talk:Hipi Zhdripi#Temporary injunction in the Kosovo arbitration - Hipi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.70.179.77 (talk) 19:35, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Your locig it is very interesant logic. Please answer this quesqen.

  • Muslim peopel from Sanxhak witch speac Serbian lang. are serbe are not.
    • If they are serbs whay you dont work for yor logic and write thate the sebs hase two religions :orthodox and muslim. And protest agains kiling your bloods brother.
    • If they are not serbs then they are albanians (boshnjak) and not how you call they Bosanci. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.70.179.77 (talk) 19:57, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of my edit

Ok, first of all, I don't know where you read that, but let me assure you that Rascia and Bosnia were not lands of the Crown of St. Stephen in 1202, and as for Dalmatia and Slavonia, please note that when we say "Croatia", we mean the "Triune Kingdom of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia". Do not revert my edits without more thorough appreciation of the period. I mean no offence as I know you were trying to help Wiki, but there was no need to call my edit "ridiculous", it most certainly was not. DIREKTOR 19:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


I know about that, just read this article (more carefully), Emeric of Hungary. It is well known that the Kingdom titles of the King of Hungary were that of Hungary and Croatia (this included Dalmatia, of course). Other titles, like King of Serbia, were disputed and not realised (except in Vojvodina). They were mostly claims and did not last long. But this is beside the point, the main reason I added "and Croatia" is that Zadar (Zara) was part of that Kingdom of the Crown of St. Stephen. I excluded other possible (and there are many lesser titles) of the King because of their irrelevance to the matter at hand. (I still really doubt the Hungarian king was the King of Serbia and Bosnia in practice in 1202...) DIREKTOR 19:57, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


In 1137 Hungary claimed the Dutchy (not kingdom) of Rama (Bosnia). Lets not go into details here, what matters for the Fourth Crusade is that King Emeric was King of Croatia. You don't really insist on naming all his titles here, do you? DIREKTOR 20:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


Yeah, it is pretty confusing isn't it, the Middle ages are never simple. I don't get it completely either. DIREKTOR 21:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mostar

I think you should be interested in this.

A user is saying Mostar isn't majority croat even though there are sources to prove it. That user is Visca el barca and he is a sockpuppet. That user has been banned 7 time because of his nationalsit propaganda views. visit category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Hahahihihoho —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.134.213 (talk) 07:31, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes elections

Time for a {{Yugoslavian elections}} template, no? ;) —Nightstallion 23:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serbs of Croatia

It has been surprise for me to see that user from Serbia has deleted part of article which speak about Vladislav ban of Slavonia ?? If this part is writen or no for me is not having importance ...-—Rjecina 16:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Situation is now better about Creation of Yugoslavia ?? ...-—Rjecina 16:58, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Now I am in shock. My answer about reordering article and which parts article need to have is writen on discussion page ?? ...-—Rjecina 17:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok look this Creation of Yugoslavia . In my thinking on discussion page we will put internet links which will be used in article. Point is that we all see this sources of future statements. User Hobartimus has asked me to create new page and this is that..--Rjecina 20:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
My thinking is that we will ulmost every statement confirm with source so that nobody will have reasons for reverting, deleting .... About politicans (I have missed before your writing:)) in my thinking Koštunica will be success. SAA and economically strengthening Serbia will be done.--Rjecina 20:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I have been thinking that deleted articles are forever deleted after few months ..Then please can you create arhive for our discussion on page Creation of Yugoslavia so then we will on that place write new article. When it is finished we will move article from discussion page on right place. Do you agree with that ?--Rjecina 20:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
It is time that we stop talking and start writing. Your english is better so can you write on discussion page part of article under name "Yugoslav idea before WWI" or something similar ? On your question I will answer this night. ?--Rjecina 21:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

This has been proposition not accepted rule. If other users support that then this will be rule but .....I have tried to delete Serbophobia but it has failed. You will need to see what I will do to this article :)) ?--Rjecina 22:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Few days before we have shortly spoken about Croatophobia article so my comment is that my fight about that is not ended. About this more important stuff. Hobartimus is speaking that annexation of Vojvodina has been against rules. Similar to that I am looking for proud Montenegrin who will speak something similar so that we can article with which will Montenegrin users (like users from Serbia, Croatia, Hungary) be happy. --Rjecina 22:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Croatophobia is deleted and it will stay deleted. Something similar need to be done with Serbophobia. Because it is soon for new nomination only other solution is changing article so that it will become more neutral (Serb users will be very angry). I stay with my comment that I want to see position of users which are for independent Montenegro. All other stuff is not important. Your comment that I am against Serbs is very, very wrong. I support neutral articles. Do you want that I start writing examples of fantasy edits from users with Serbia which are trying to show Serbian truth like real truth. List will be very long. --Rjecina 23:27, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your essay

You wrote a very long essay at the talk page of the article, which mostly has nothing to do with the topic of the article, but takes time to point out the fact that I used the term farse, instead of the correct form farce among other things :). I like the fact that you took the time to write it, and would love to discuss it because you misunderstand a lot of things (mostly considering my position), but I don't think we should clutter that talk page with this, so I would ask you to remove your long essay from that talk page and place it somewhere where I can reply to it point by point, sentence by sentence. Hobartimus 22:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

We can leave it but most of it really has nothing to do with the article I think you will see that on second reading.Also another problem is that it is very long, can I break it up into sections and write my own reply after them?(I don't like messing with other people's edits without permission).Hobartimus 22:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Of course, the whole essay is just too long and it will get incredibly messy if you reply to the replies and then I reply to those etc. This is why I suggested to preserve the talk page to stuff that's relevant to the article and take our personal discussion elsewhere. The whole BBB section is not even that long in the article and your essay has parts that go far beyond even the topic of Creation of Yugoslavia let alone the BBB. Hobartimus 19:14, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Could you elaborate on what do you consider an ideal version at the Creaton of Yug. article, and also if you confirm your agreement with the "no-commentary, only census information" compromise on the demography article. I feel that we could agree a large number of things in the past but with the decreased activity of Panonian you feel that some of his positions should now be represented by you. Hobartimus 05:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Angry

To tell truth I am angry on Serbian users which are creating POV articles. It has been needed around 2 months that in begining of article Nikola Tesla be writen how he has been born in Croatian Krajina. Serbian users has used even lies to block this change. Around 1 year on Portal:Croatia it has been Ustaša picture and Jasenovac put there from Serbian users. Riots in Dalmatia has recieved name pogrom or Kristallnacht but nobody has been killed. Point of this 3 things is hate from part of Serbian users towards Croats and Croatia. I have 2 answers on that. First is changing part of article where are false statement and second is writing about situation where Serb forces has been making killing or raping. If riots of Dalmatia where nobody has been killed or injured is having article, then articles are really needed to speak about Serbian killing.

About Creation of Yugoslavia from begining I and you are having different thinking. For me this has been process which has lasted around 35 days. For you Creation of Yugoslavia is about union of SCS and Serbia. This is are different thinking. Discussion on page of this article has been without reasons. Do you agree that part of article which speaks about BBB is more or less OK. If you agree with that then we all are having agreement. About other stuff we have not spoken too much.--Rjecina 00:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I will today delete parts of your essay on my discussion page so that there will no be need for creation of new page (maybe is time that you delete my essay on your page). Do no be angry all sources which you have writen to me will stay. In then end I am sure that we will find solution for BBB in article. Can you please look Talk:Demographic history of Bačka and tell if you agree with my proposition on this page so that revert wars and hate speach will finish. In my thinking proposition is honest.
2 days have passed. I want to hear your report. How is life for Magyars in Serbia :)) You know what is bad with this ?? We need Serb for Serbia for our discussion about BBB. We are having user from Hungary !! --Rjecina 16:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I having many serious problems with doctors which are now in kronično stanje but there have never been operation. I am sure that everything will finish without problems.
My discussion page (and your) has become discussion between PaxEquilibrium and Rjecina. In my thinking we do not have discussion pages for that. Maybe if we created discussion page for that it will be OK ??
Today morning are last hours of my editing before 2 weeks break from english wiki. I have become tired of personal attacks on me.... --Rjecina 06:19, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Yugoslavian elections

Which half of the discussion did you want me to reply to? I have replied to the Senate bit, but I don't have anything to add to the post-1992 section. Number 57 11:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Not sure - was the old Senate a sort-of upper house? Also, yes, I missed the no elections bit (recovering from a long weekend!) - how come there weren't any, and did the MPs elected in 2000 sit until the dissolution? Number 57 12:13, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, thanks for that explanation - quite interesting - I guess people thought that the split would probably happen, so it wasn't worth having a full election for a parliament that might not last a full term. Anyway, I have made the change to upper house. Number 57 13:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
The closest I can think of is the Awami League winning the Pakistani general election, 1970 - the AL was an East Pakistani (i.e. Bangladeshi) party which definitely wanted more devolution and possibly full independence for the East - and the aftermath of the election (West Pakistani politicians refusing to allow the AL to form the government) led to the country's split. Number 57 14:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Its a bit complicated - there was a President as well as the PM, though then president Yayha Khan was not actually elected. I don't believe he supported independence for Bangladesh, but I think the PM was technically (if not actually de facto) the more powerful position. You would have to ask someone who knows a bit more about it. Number 57 15:24, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SDS

BTW, I thought you might wish to know that I've split out a separate article for Serb Democratic Party (SR Croatia). Please check :) --Joy [shallot] 19:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XVIII (August 2007)

The August 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

Delivered by grafikbot 10:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wiesenthal

Hello. Would you mind providing a specific reference for the Wiesenthal study which says that Croatia did the least of all countries to fight Neo-Nazism? I went to their site, but couldn't find it. --Zmaj 09:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your opinion

Pax, since you are a neutral editor and i respect your opinon I would like to know what you think about our discussion whether Tudjman was a genocide denier. If you have time look at Talk:Genocide_denial. Paulcicero 21:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I am back

It has been little vacation .... Like you can see I have made changes in article Demographic history of Bačka like it has been writen in consensus. About Creation of Yugoslavia my question is what is bad with version on discussion page. It is having better sources of statement and it is smaller. Part of article BBB in my thinking is now too great. It is having 27 lines in time when Serbia is having 9, State SCS 16 and Montenegro 19. I see that Gulas paprikas problem is solved :)) Rjecina 23:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

SANU is for me only example of situation in Serbia during that time. If nothing else I hope that we will agree that nationalistic rising of Serbia has been before Croatia or Slovenia ?? Like you can see I have returned Paulcicero version about Archont Petar and deleted yours in which you say maybe. Why ? There is many articles where is writen something bad about Croatia and question of fact/date is waiting for action months or years. If I delete this question and write maybe it will be reverted very soon so my only reason is that we do not have double standards because for me is funny that Nemanjići are Trpimirovići :))
About Operation Storm in my thinking Serbian position is wrong when they say or write that there has been expulsions of approximately 200,000 or 300,000 Serbs. In my thinking (this is maybe even official Croatian thinking) they have left on orders of Krajina leadership. To tell you truth looking from today back in time I am happy that they have left because if they have stayed I am sure that number of Serbian civilian victims will be very bad (maybe even 10 000) ...Rjecina 23:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Your revert of my edit is if nothing else funny. You have deleted my statement but not source ?? Sorry but nobody outside Serbia is accepting that Jasenovac has been 3rd biggest camp (please do not try to use Yad Vashem center because we all known that this data is false).
I stay with my statements about Miroslav Bajramović. Please show me his statement where is writen that he has killed 86 persons in Gospić region. If you show that then his statement can stay with statement confirmed with sources that he is liar.
Yes Slobodan Milošević and Franjo Tuđman has been friends. I can understand this in Milošević but in Tuđman.. How is possible to be friend with somebody which is having under occupation 1/3 of your country ??
I have been in Split region when it has come call for funeral which is second this year ...Rjecina 01:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
If we want to be neutral about Gospić and write about M.B. we need to write that he is having problem with truth ? I hope that about that we can make agreement ??
About kings in my personal thinking they are not giving 5 cents about nationality. If we take like truth that Nemanjići-Trpimirovići connection fact stay that for example Dušan Serb in culture and in blood (until that time in best situation for Croat nationalist he is having only 1-2 % of Croat blood)
You have forget fact that Croatia has given oil (nafta) for Yugoslavia and Serb military forces between 1991 - 95 ?? In Croatia it is known fact that Jadranski naftovod has worked in that period for Serb military forces. Crazy times. ...Rjecina 18:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Nice. We are having circus in similar time. To tell you truth I will be happy if Tadić loose elections. In that way he will become first modern Serbia leader which has lost position in normal way (Koštunica has lost state and about others there is no need to speak). If nothing else you are having state from XIX century :) Now there is source for Archont Petar statement... My work on english wiki is frustration after frustration and I enyoy work on croatian wiki where I write real articles. You can look my Gorbačov article. Now I am working on Operation Barbarossa. Rjecina 19:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Mihajlo Obrenović 1815-39 abdication against his will, Mihajlo Obrenović III 1839-42 coup, Alexander Karađorđević 1842-58 abdication against his will, Mihajlo Obrenović 1858-60 death, Mihajlo Obrenović III 1860-68 killed, Milan I 1868-89 abdication, Aleksandar I 1889-903 killed, Petar I 1903-14/21 not fit to reign from 1914, Aleksandar 1914/21-34 killed, Petar II 1934-41/45 lost power, Tito 1944-80, Ivan Stambolić (in Serbia) 1980-87 coup, Slobodan Milošević 1987-2000 coup, Zoran Đinđić 2001-2003 killed. Point is that ulmost all leaders of Serbia has been killed or they have abdicated in one or other way. Tomislav Nikolić is having chance to win like snow in hell because if he enter second round EU will make pressure that all parties support his opponent. I have taken too much place on wiki with our discussion. Rjecina 20:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

In normal monarchy king is governing until natural death. I know that you have different opinion but history of Serbian princes and kings is not classical example of normal monarchy. In period after 1980 real rulers of Serbia has been Stambolić, Milošević and Đinđić. Name ot title is important only if you want to play word games. Milan Milutinović has in best days control when he will have dinner, go to WC and nothing else. Even article about him is speaking that he has been without control over Serbia. I do not think bad about Tadić, but to tell truth I will like to see that he is going in pension and not new Serbian constituion crisis or atentat.--Rjecina 20:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
For me very good book is James Clavell Shogun. In this book it is very nice writen situation about title. To make long story short rulers of Japan has been: Dictator Goroda , Taiko Nakamura, Kampaku Hideyori, Shogun Tokugawa. Point of this story is that name of title is not important but only who is real ruler. For example this has been for Serbia Slobodan Milošević between 1989 and 2000. I am interested today what is situation in Serbia, who is real ruler Vojislav Koštunica or Boris Tadić . To make situation more clear I will tell you that ruler in Croatia is Ivo Sanader . Mesić can speak, scream but nothing will be done until Sanader say yes. I do not know politicans of Serbia so I do not support any politician. I only want that all is finished well without bad surprises.. .--Rjecina 14:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
About position that in NDH has been killed 700 000 or more Serbs I think that this is nothing more but serbian fundamentalism. Why ? Look census data of Bosnia and Herzegovina (borders of Bosnia has not been changed after 1945) from 1930 and 1948. Number of Serbs has gone up. How can anybody explain data ??? --Rjecina 14:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Victims from Serbia has gone to Sajmište concentration camp which has been on NDH territory but outside NDH control (it is Germany camp on NDH territory). About numbers I accept that 350 000 - 400 000 Serbs has been killed in all NDH but numbers of 500 000 or more victims of this nationality is too much and census show data. Using census data for Croatia is problem because of western Syrmia which is after 1945 part of Croatia, but census of Bosnia is very good in showing situation "on the ground".
About nationality of our leaders I can tell you (in my thinking) that all problematic leaders our coming from other side of border. During Tuđman time in Rijeka, Zagreb there have been writing on the walls we want return of Serbs and that people from Herzegovina go home ("Uzmite Hercegovce vratite nam Srbe"). They have been and they are today very strong in Croatia ... It is sad that all Croatian leaders our from Dalmatinska Zagora or Hercegovina (Tuđman has not been but all people around him..). Maybe similar problems with Serbia and Montenegrins ??
It is sad that Zoran Milanović is afraid to say that he is Serb (surname is Serb and he can say what he want), but in the end we will have Serb primeminister.. :))--Rjecina 15:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
You are having answer about Trpimirovići -- Rjecina16:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

About serbian politicians Croats are hoping in Čedomir Jovanović win. I am thinking that Tadić is OK because Croatia and Serbia are having less and less problems. Why change something when everything is going OK ??

Let as speak little about Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja and article House of Trpimirović. I have looked article House of Vojislavljević and there is accepted all data from this chronicle but in House of Trpimirović you do not accept that ?? Like historian and person which need from time to time to make analysis I know what is wrong with this chronicles and why is wrong but I will not give munition to user:Paulcicero (we do not allow original research on wiki). Connection with House of Trpimirović is not problem but something else. Rjecina 06:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe is time that I say something about my edits in article massacres. After seeing what is writen in Gospić massacre and Miroslav Bajramović my only possible answer is to write similar numbers in massacres where Croats are victims. Do you remember when I have spoken about need for Croats-Serbs consensus. This is 1 situation where is needed. Will we write victim numbers from court finding, victim numbers from what somebody has been speaking or both. After Gospić situation is that we will write both because this is only honest solution. Maybe is better that we return to court finding ?? Rjecina 14:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
About massacre I think that you have seen my today edits when I have writen possible number of victims close to numbers given by court.
Let speak about Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja . You version is misleading if not something worst of that. First you are not writing from which period is "this" version which you do not like. This is very important because of many misleading books which has been writen in last 20 years on territory of ex-Yugoslavia. It is important to say that book is from XII century but today version is from XVI century because original is lost. Second you are not showing internet links for version which are saying that Arhont Petar has not been brother of Croatian king. If there is no link which show your version I must think that this do not exist because I have 2 links which say that "my" version is right. First link is Montenegrina and other is this [39] Rjecina 17:00, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
My city is today under USA military occupation. 3 warships are in harbour. 1 is patrol ship (or something similar), second and third are amphibious assault ships ....It is funny how USA for which will of people is holly thing forget that when people will is against them. Rijeka is red/communist city and american military presence is .....
I again ask that you show link to other versions of Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja . In my knowledge this version for which I have given you 2 different links is only surviving version.
Before and during Yugoslav wars I have hated serbian versions of history. Why ? Serbian versions have been many times similar to:"Many Serbs has been killed by Croats" , "In history we have ruled this lands" and similar. What is bad with that ? In first statement question is names of killed persons and in second question is when. I will not accept comments like "One of the newer many versions" until it is not writen that versions are from XVI century and until I do not see other versions which speak different. I am afraid that there will be need to ask other users thinking about our problem because we will not have solution. Rjecina 06:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I have finished analyze of first (latinična verzija), second (Hrvatska verzija) and third version (latin version). For me is funny that you accept "croatian" version which is having 29 chapters and not for example latin language version which is having 47 chapters. Latin version is speaking about that connection "Crescimiro autem fratri eius natus est filius cui Stephanus nomen imposuit, iste post mortem patris rexit Croatiam Albam, et Bosnam" . You must accept that latin version is original (surviving) version of article ? Rjecina 09:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Il Regno de gli Sclavi is another book which is using like source Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja but this is not that book or version of that book. Rjecina 12:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Notice

Conservative liberalism was proposed for deletion. --Checco 23:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovar Independence

Thought you might want to hear this. The US and EU are officially going to recognise Kosovar independence as long as Kosovo declares independence in December, when the negotiations will be over, hopefully on 10 December.

Sources:

[edit] Ban Jelačić

Was his father really a Bunjevac? Where did you find that information? --Jesuislafete 18:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I found this [40] which says his father was born in Petrinja, which makes me doubt he was Bunjevac. I didn't read it all, but from what I could tell, it seems quite unlikely, as it was a military family who moved around a lot. --Jesuislafete 03:42, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I kept the Bunjevac reference up until I did more research, but I really haven't had time, and the little research I did makes me doubt almost everything. The French site I went on claims his family was originally from Bihać, but how trusted can that be? I also heard from one source that his mother was a Bavarian countess, but others call her Austrian. I think primary source information (such as a biographical book from a university) should be used if anyone is that terribly interested to learn about the origin of Jelačić's parents. Otherwise, I am not going to be very trusting of various websites with different "facts". Moreover, it really doesnt interest me that much. --Jesuislafete (talk) 07:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Time

Hey. How have you been? Long time no talk... Greetings, Vseferović 22:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] BiH election

You might be interested in Republika Srpska presidential election, 2007... —Nightstallion 21:44, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Interest poll from Serbia: http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2007&mm=10&dd=03&nav_category=93&nav_id=44258 —Nightstallion 19:34, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other things

Yes everything will finish where it has started.

Have you noticed how our leaders are having poor health. For me is simple very hard to believe how nobody of them is living 80 years. Becoming chief of state in ex Yugoslavia is lottery which people loose . This my writing is because of Republika Srpska president death which is really surprise...

If you look my talk page you will see that I am enemy of Croatia :))

I will start again to work on article creation of Yugoslavia (Croatian part) —Rjecina 17:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Have you seen this article . I will not give demand for deleting because I have protected article Ustaše and I have blocked this user on 24 hours. You can say that my writing to you is invitation for deleting of this misleading article. —Rjecina 02:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I having 3 questions for you. If I do not make mistake you have writen in our discussion that your thinking about Milan Bandić is positive . I have negative thinking because of his scandals. Why you think that he is OK ?
Today I have looked on croatian wiki map of Vojvodina. If there is no mistakes Vojvodina is north of rivers Sava and Dunav. Now I do not understand why is in articles Vojvodina and History of Vojvodina writen about Stefan Dragutin who has never ruled north of this rivers ?? —Rjecina 22:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Little mistakes :) About Milan Bandić it is best that you read article.
If HDZ do not win elections I will have surprise. Young voters will vote for HDZ because from 2008 they will not become soldiers. Workers has recieved stocks profits, and gift for old voters ha been raise in pension . You can say that ulmost every part of society has recieved what they have wanted. I do not remember that something similar has ever happen in Croatia. For us it has been normal in election time that we state workers are having raise wage similar to raise in pensions but other things ... —Rjecina 22:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
You have reverted Pagania but this must be deleted because of gross violation of the copyright law. Reason for this my statement is that deleted part of article is taken from wikisource with 1 little problem. This "book" on wikisource has been deleted because of gross violation of the copyright law so it is not possible to use that text on wiki [41] ! Sorry .. Now I will let you deleted that in Pagania so that there will not be in history of article something similar to revert war. -—Rjecina 14:34 17 October 2007 (UTC)
This version of english translation is copyright. Original text is not copyright, but translation used in article is, and this is real problem !!-—Rjecina 17:28 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes I have looked that now after finishing to write article on croatian wiki. You can say that we all in Croatia know this story. In the end I am sure that you know that ulmost always people which change "regime" have been working for that regime. I having 1 interesting book for you. Do you want to read ? 1 day I or somebody else will write about that on english wiki (this book will be source). -—Rjecina 17:58 17 October 2007 (UTC)

If nothing else you will agree that there is change of thinking !?
Link for book is here [42] -—Rjecina 18:36 17 October 2007 (UTC)
This my edits will be long ....
In Croatia are very known statements of Vuk Drašković (somebody has writen this statements in his article on wiki)
About Vojislav Koštunica and his support for war in Bosnia you have this [43] ,
This link will be from Serbian forum but point will be clear [44]
Zoran Đinđić [45]
This has been my finding in only 5 minutes. I very good understand situation that angels are not working with devil and that in period 1990-95 it has been cool in Serbia to support agression on Croatia and Bosnia (OK you will not say that this has been agreesion)
About Croatian forces and Banja Luka link is here [46]
Maybe I have spoken to you before that Croatia has been selling oil to Serbia during 1991 - 95. This is speaking enough about friend and enemy, but in 1995 there have been new player on the battlefield (USA) so all Croatia-Serbia plays has stoped been important.
Now is better to write about something what is not so black. I have been hearing about Montenegrin language but not about constitution. Maybe you will be offended but Serbian party screams have become for me in Croatia something normal... For me stupid part of agreement is: "crosses will be removed from the flag and coat of arms of Montenegro".... I am againt that.-—Rjecina 17:36 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Must ot today Serbian political leaders have supported Krajina and Republika Srpska. If you support entity which is guilty of genocide in my thinking you support genocide. Finding words where leaders of today Serbian political parties speak in support of ethnic cleansing it is harder thing. I really do not want loose time looking for thing which will be latter used by "great Croats". Only to show you that this is possible I will use words from article Vuk Drašković:
"Had the Ustaše done nothing other than blowing up our martyr church in Jasenovac as they did several days ago, it would be reason enough to declare war on them, both as a nation and as a state"
I hoping that you understand signification of words declare war to nation.
Andrija Mandić (leader of Srpska list) words :"Ovakav ustav, smatra on, ne garantuje jednaka prava za sve, već diskriminiše Srbe" -—Rjecina 19:19 23 October 2007 (UTC)
You are saying that person which has been minister of foreign affairs until may 2007 is nobody ???
If I am civilian and support something it is not important (I support Belarus), but if political leader speak for television and newspaper in support of aggression, genocide and similar stuff it is really, really bad.
In my thinking it is normal that Montenegrin nationals want that Serbs in Montenegro change nationality.. On other side is is normal that Serbs do not like that .. -—Rjecina 19:42 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I have not known that ! Then he is similar to Dražen Budiša-—Rjecina 20:49 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I support Belarus because they are last comunist state in Europe and because they are showing that even today comunism is working. GDP of Belarus is having for Europe record growth every year. Examples: 2004 GDP is +11 %, 2005 GDP is + 8.5 %, 2006 GDP is + 9.9 % and for first quarter of 2007 GDP is + 9 %. If economy of Croatia is having so good growth I will be happy. What you think about Belarus GDP ?

If you have voted for war of aggression you are guilty of agression. Politicians which has voted that way need to say (if nothing else) I have made mistake. Maybe I do not understand your question because I am reading statement that maybe serbian politicans has not known about ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. If they have known that and they have supported Republika Srpska they are supporters of ethnic cleansing. You maybe do not agree with that but ...On other side I very good know that many young people of Serbia has refused to go in army, and refused to go in war because they have known that this is war of aggression. In my thinking this war has been needed to have end in Belgrade. During discussions with you and other users from Serbia I have seen creation of myth how traitor Milošević has let Krajina fall in Croatian hand. This myth for me is very similar to myth about jews traitors because of which Germany has lost WWI..

About civilians in war zone like in many other things my thinking is radical (this is discussion from page about Zagora). Only right penalty for killing civilians by soldiers in war zone is death penalty. Penalty for every paramilitary member (example White Eagles (paramilitary)) which has surendered during war time is death penalty. If example today member of White Eagles (paramilitary) cross border of Croatia he need to go in prison. Indictment is illegaly crosing of Croatia border (in period 1991 -1995) with weapons and intention to comite crimes against population of Croatia. I think with that indictment he will finish in prison 5 - 10 years :))

About election in Croatia they have started to speak about Great coalition (HDZ + SDP). Problem with election laws of Croatia is that HDZ from begining is having + 4 votes (votes of Croats from Bosnia). This is not honest but they are giving bonus in parlament. Another thing will be buying parlament majority (if there is no great coalition). HDZ is more corrupt party (in my thinking) so they are better in that.

Montenegrin nation (if they exist) is under danger to become assimilated in Serb nation (1 language and 1 religion) so situation is very different from situation in Croatia during 1991. I understand Montenegro leadership wish so that this do not happen. For me this is something normal. Your thinking about that is ? -—Rjecina 15:56 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Vojislav Koštunica during visit to Serbian forces around Sarajevo (he is together with Šešelj):"This is example how need to look future borders of Serbia" (all text on Croato-Serbian is "Ovo je primjer kako trebaju izgledati buduće granice Srbije. Ohrabren sam moralom i odlučnošću naših boraca da ne odstupe". Taken from Croatian wikipedia.
About myth I think that you understand. About traitor I do not agree with you. He has been president of Serbia and during that time every his act is against interest of Serbia is possible treason. Only question is if in 1995 it has been possible to rule better (if you look Krajina and Republika Srpska). I do not believe that because only solution has been declaration of war against Bosnia and Croatia. I hope that one day people in Serbia will look more realistic situation and accept that possibility of Krajina region against Croatia has been 1 : 100. If we look population, economy numbers and strategic situation this is clear.
In my thinking (and few discussions during Yugoslavia) Macedonia nation is created by Tito. They are Bulgarians and they have been loyal to Bulgaria. In this theory Tito has used dialect of Bulgarian and created Macedonian language..
If I do not make mistake even king Nicholas has been must of his reign Serb. After seeing that he will not become Serbian king he has become Montenegrin !? -—Rjecina 04:47 27 October 2007 (UTC)
You have writen me that you are Serb from Croatia. For me situation is not so ease. I am Croat, I am Serb, I am Montenegrin and my cousins are Italian. It is too long to say all that so short version is I am Yugoslav ! If I hate somebody I hate Milošević and morons which have started war in his name (you will say in name of Serbia or Serbs). Serbs like to write how Tuđman and Milošević are similar so that they are not guilty, but this is lie. If we look timeline we will see that Milošević has become leader of Serbia in 1987. Milošević is making hate (or nationalistic) speaches from 1988. Franjo Tuđman is only late (because he has taken power in may 1990) croatian answer. This is only truth but in my thinking nationalistic Serbs do not want to accept this fact. If you want you can read my article about Slobodan Milošević [47]
If you do not understand difference between political life of Konrad Adenauer during Hitler and life of Vojislav Koštunica (and other today Serbia leaders) during Slobodan Milošević for me is not possible to explain you. I and many other in Croatia will be happy when strong man in Belgrade will be Serbian version of Adenauer !!
I will write reasons for changes on discussion page. -—Rjecina 17:00 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Have you seen my changes on Croatian parliamentary election, 2007. I ask you that because my english is not so good. You can write with better english and my edits in article will be very interesting for you. -—Rjecina 18:42 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I am tired of this about political leaders. I stay with my claim that every serbian politician which has during Yugoslav wars suported Serbian (croatian version, serbian is Milošević) aggression on Croatia and Bosnia and has not spoken something like: This has been my mistake (his support for war) is bad. Every Serbian political leader which has supported this war is bad for us..If you show me person who is today important serbian political leader and it has not supported wars I will change my thinking.
On the other side Croatia has defended country from Serbian aggression. Not 1 croatian party has in this war demanded conquest of Serbian territory so it is not possible to say that they are similar.
Before I have been writing you how it is funny that Serbs outside of Serbia are always having problems. Look today situation in Bosnia. Saturday words of Koštunica are:"Ovo je otvoreno ugrožavanje suštinskih interesa srpskog naroda" . My question is: he is leader of Serbs or leader of Serbia ? If Sanader start to speak something similar without any question he will loose election. With similar words (like I am president of Croats) we have finished in 2000 !!
Link is [48] you must go on Slobodan Milošević
It is not question when Tuđman nationalism has started but when croatian and serbian nationalism has started. Serbian in 1987 (Milošević has taken power) and Croatian in 1990 (Tuđman has taken power). -—Rjecina 19:39 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. For me best slogan is of HDZ. Slogan is clear and simple. It is hard to sell SDP slogan "People are power". This slogan is created only because they are having duality leadership. They need slogan for election win and not for internal questions. -—Rjecina 20:12 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Have you heard thinking of SDSS (Independent Democratic Serbian Party) about elections ? After election we will support party which will give us minister seat. If nothing else they are honest in saying price before elections.

Interesting (about Tadić). This is example how bad news are always stronger and faster of good news !?-—Rjecina 20:41 29 October 2007 (UTC)

About nationality of croatian ministers I really do not know. In my thinking somebody has been of serbian nationality (because in past there have been Italian and Bosniaks ministers) but names and surnames are very similar (for me) with croatian. Maybe Čedomir Pavlović (1992-93) or maybe Živko Juzbašić (1991-92) or ... You are now having here [49] link for all Croatian goverments with all ministers.
About Cedomir Jovanovic I have know before (read older discussions)
I am looking economy news so I have been reading about Mladjan Dinkic. It is good that minister has recieved but minister of economy is really, really bad. -—Rjecina 04:58 30 October 2007 (UTC)
In my thinking award for Mlađan Dinkić is bad news for Serbian workers because international monetary organizations and magazines are supporting ministers (and goverments) which lower taxes for reach people and which are lowering workers (and poor people) rights.
You need to look this [50] . You need to come in the begining of second half of news (I think that Serbia today is speaking about that).-—Rjecina 14:51 1 November 2007 (UTC)
You need to look (if you have fast enough connection) croatian dnevnik of 31.10. Interesting for you will be begining of second half (you need to look part when sign of dnevnik is on e (of srijeda)! In little movie there are albanian terrorist which are speaking for Croatian television !
International monetary organizations and magazines are supporting politicans which are making ease sacking of workers and which are opening markets for international companies. If I do not make mistake goverments which have created economic miracle has never recieved awards from this organizations.-—Rjecina 15:46 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I will be very short on question of today serbian leadership and wars in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Prime minister of Serbia Vojislav Koštunica has never say I am sorry for my statements for support of this wars of agression. Similar situation is with Serbian (and before Serbia-Montenegro) minister of foreign affairs Vuk Drašković. Then there is Tomislav Nikolić speaker of serbian parlament in 2007. After that I will only tell name of Ivica Dačić. I will not say nothing against Boris Tadić because he has been speaking "I am sorry for my wartime statements".. All in all in last parlament election serbian parties which leaders have (and are ??) supported war of agression in Bosnia and Croatia has recieved 54.11 % + 3.11 % (Nebojša Čović). On other side parties with leaders which are today speaking against this agression has recieved 31.07 % (I have not looked parties which has recieved less of 1 % of vote !!). Now when I have writen that majority of today serbian population support serbian warmonger politicians I think that there is no need to say anything more  ?? .-—Rjecina 4:48 4 November 2007 (UTC)

After looking results of last Serbian election my thinking has been Tadić is brave person. Looking from Croatia Tadić (now I know that he has not done anything against Croatia or Bosnia during war) and Čedomir Jovanović are good guys. Let speaking about others. There is no need to say anything about Radical party and Nikolić. Similar situation is with Koštunica (EU has been screaming on him because his last words about Bosnia). During wars Ivica Dačić has been glasnogovornik od Milošević Party !!! I am sure that he is "good" man which has never supported wars !? On other side Nebojša Čović has left Milošević party only after defeats in Croatia and Bosnia ..I really do not have time to look internet about serbian political leaders. My point is that Šešelj party+Koštunica party+Milošević party are recieving more of 50 % on election. Leaders of this 3 party have been supporters of war in Croatia and Bosnia and they are still interesting and possible dangerous people for ex Yugoslav region. About Nikolić and Drašković for me is not interesting if they are today in power, but they have been on state positions this year because of people will !!! This is real point. I know that Serbs and Serbia are having problem with Mesić but my thinking of him is positive. Why ? In 1994 he has lost all his position because he has been against war between Croats and Bosniaks. Only brave man will give up position because of things in which is he believing !! On other side I know that he has been saying many bad stuff during 1990-92 .-—Rjecina 22:08 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you known that croatian critics of Stjepan Mesić has called him clown. To tell the truth this has been only during first mandate. After last president elections when it has been clear how popular Mesic is calling him clown has become political suicide. My thinking about Šeks is bad. In my thinking during Yugoslavia he has been member of UDBA (this is not only my thinking). After raise of nationalism he has become nationalist .....
Now is time for something else. I am waiting and waiting your comments about book Globalizing the Holocaust and my writing about Slobodan Milošević but .... ??-—Rjecina 21:37 7 November 2007 (UTC)
For Šeks my only comment is that he is not nice guy. For more info which is interesting to you it is possible to read this http://www.nacional.hr/articles/view/19384/ .If nothing else during last decade he has stoped to speak nationalistic stupidity. I am more interested if Serbia has opened files from time of communism. Croatia has not. My question is why has other ex communist states opened files but not Croatia. Only logical answer for me is that we are having still rulers with communist past...
I am still waiting that you find time reading book or if nothing else my article. I want to hear criticism. -—Rjecina 23:19 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] .....ah!

Now I know who you are.

How are you doing? I'm well, thank you. DS 21:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hm

Well, I'm not always on. What name do you use on IRC now? DS 01:13, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Meh

Be on now. DS 20:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry for the delayed message...

Yeah. Well we'll see in the next few day whether or not the police reform will pass. The sudden agreement between Silajdzic and Dodik shows how corrupt BiH is. Supposedly there is no agreement for a long time and then overnight they reach a consensus. Day by day it shows that the world is controlling BiH and its political path. BiH needs constitutional and police reforms in order to progress as a nation and head towards the EU.

I hope that everything went well with your surgery. :)

I seem to have taken your path towards retirement. I just don't have the time for Wikipedia anymore. However, I have seen less and less nationalism in BiH related articles. There is no more unnecessary fighting going on. Hopefully it continues this way.

Thanks and greetings, Vseferović 03:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding

this, do I have to worry...? —Nightstallion 19:45, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

You'll stop editting in March 2008? That's not good... :( —Nightstallion 20:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but still... I'll be very sad to see you go. —Nightstallion 21:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh, okay. That's a relief. :) —Nightstallion 21:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DPSCG

Hi, did I somewhere state thatbthe PDSCG is not a left-wing party? I do not understand your question. Electionworld Talk? 13:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Answer and Question

Thanks for the update. I thought +382 would fully replace +381 in December because I remember reading an article about it either in Pobjeda or Vijest, not sure which one.

Well, according to the Centre for Democratic Transition and Centre for Monitoring, Milo's coalition got 39 seats, but I will try to find out exactly how many seats DPS got out of the 39. --Prevalis 18:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Joke?

No! Biruitorul 01:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

That's fine. What's controversial about my talk page? I keep posts people put up there for a while, then I archive them. Am I doing something unusual? Biruitorul 11:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Ah, well, if there are any templates you find especially controversial, I'm open to discussing or removing them. Do let me know. Biruitorul 12:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Aha! Now, I do support a Serbian Kingdom made up of the entire former Yugoslavia except Slovenia and non-Serbian parts of Croatia (I'll defer to Serbian nationalists to determine exactly where those boundaries lie, but the fact is that large parts of Croatia are rightly Serb.) However, since my proposed Kingdom of Yugoslavia is really just Serbia, and not Greater Serbia, I shall now remove the word "Great(er)". Biruitorul 13:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
I think you should mind your own business and let the Slavs and the rest of those people, do whatever they do. It's not like the Serbs worried about being unfair to us when they seized western Banat. Remain in your own square. --Thus Spake Anittas 20:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Bosniaks are Serbs who converted to Islam, and it is the duty of Orthodox Serbs to try and bring them back to their ancestral faith, or of these Islamized Serbs to come back themselves, as Emir Kusturica has done. Similarly, Bosnian Croats were once Serbs but relentless Titoist propaganda turned them into Croats. Just because Croats ethnically cleansed Serbian regions doesn't mean they're not still Serbian lands. Moreover, Catholic Serbs in Croatia also took on the Croatian identity due to Communist attempts to divide and weaken Serbia, but there are many, many Serbs in Croatia who live as Catholic Croats. It is the duty of the Serbian state to try and bring these people back to their Serbian consciousness. Given Serbia's great military, I think that process is feasible, assuming NATO stays out (and Russia helps). My goal, however, isn't bloodshed: I believe in righting historical wrongs, and I think the Catholic, Croatian, "Bosniak" and Muslim surfaces can easily be washed off people to reveal solid Serbian interiors. (I should note that I get my information on these matters from Serbs who are strong nationalists and devout Orthodox, so perhaps my views are a bit one-sided.) Biruitorul 04:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It's true that the Bosniak ethnic background is slightly more complex (no doubt some Turkish admixture occurred), but the broad outlines of my declaration are accurate. Actually, this isn't that democratic a world: Russians, Belarusians, Chinese, most Arabs, most Africans, Burmese, North Koreans, etc. - these all live under far from democratic conditions. The precise definition of "Serbian land" I leave up to Serbian nationalists to decide, but broadly speaking, it includes lands inhabited by Serbs during the Serbian Empire. It is true that assimilation was happening during the Kingdom of Yugoslavia as well, but Tito made that even more entrenched. While forced conversions are immoral, I do believe Orthodox Serbs should make concerted, peaceful efforts at conversion. The Serbian military fended off NATO for almost three months and many, many Serbian men are still ready to do their patriotic duty. Surprise is also an element favouring them, since Croatia doesn't see Serbia as a military threat anymore. And, let me clarify: I'm against bloodshed and violence, but for robust tactics short of violence. I am very much aware of what happened in the 1990s, when Serbs were driven out of Croatia and slaughtered in Bosnia. Of course, Serbs too perpetrated violence, but let us remember that those Serbs still largely retained the Communist mentality of the JNA. My ideal Serbian army, one that doesn't yet exist, would incorporate the Christian principles of the saintly Draža Mihailović in the way it operates, and keep loss of life to an absolute minimum as it spreads its ideology of peace and goodwill further west and south. Biruitorul 17:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Nonsense, Anittas. My goal is the achievement of Serbian expansionism. What's good for Serbia is good for Romania, and vice versa. The Serbian claim over Western Banat was quite strong after WWI and I have no problem with it remaining theirs. Biruitorul 04:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
You don't have the mentality of a Romanian, nor does your loyalty lie with your country. You're probably a Romanized Serb. I don't mind that, but please don't speak as a Romanian, for Romanians. Speak as a Serb, for Serbs. You say that you don't want bloodshed, but relate to Serbia's greater military size and hope that NATO doesn't get involved. Dude, get real...and get out of Romania and take your evangelistic views with you! --Thus Spake Anittas 10:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
That is outrageous. My loyalty lies 100% with Romania; I dare you to prove me wrong. I am, as far as I know, 0% Serb. When a military power has overwhelming force, bloodshed is quite limited - see, for instance, the British invasion of Iceland in 1940 (0 casualties). Romania is a pluralistic society that admits of many beliefs, and you are not to tell me where to take up residence. Moreover, the vast majority of Romanians are Orthodox Christians, so my views are quite in line with theirs, and it is your agnosticism that is the outlier. Biruitorul 17:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

There are many unfair things. For starters, Banat was reported to have been inhabited mostly by Ro; Serbs started to migrate there in the 17th century. Secondly, those Ro that were assimilated there should have retained their identity, but perhaps certain things made that a difficult task. I got nothing against Serbs and Ro's don't claim any Serb land, but I think it's hard to convince a population native to the Balkans that it was fair to get so little from their ancient realms. I don't like when southern Romanians, much like Biru here, start talking as if Ro shares a brotherhood with Serbs and Bulgarians; then they talk as if they speak for all Romanians. We should remain politically neutral and not venture our opinions. --Thus Spake Anittas 21:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Note: I am much more Transylvanian, Moldavian and Bessarabian than I am Wallachian, so Anittas' statement is false. Romanians do in fact share intimate bonds with Serbs and to some extent Bulgarians, Orthodoxy first and foremost. Biruitorul 04:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I think Wallachia allied Bulgaria and came into some border conflicts with Serbia, a conflict they lost in the early 14th century; then came Rovine. Yes, we've had a peaceful co-existence and I'm happy about that. As I've said in my reply above, we don't claim Serb land. I was just saying that I don't think it's historically fair to have so much land go to the Slavs--sorry for adding you all in the same pot, but that's how I see it. I'm not a great fan of Greeks, but they are definitely the biggest losers in the Balkans and yes, their state should have composed the areas mentioned by you (excluding Thrace), and more, but they lost the majority there pretty quickly. FYROM shouldn't exist as a state. The analogy made with Russia is not very logical. We were talking about historical regions...something which doesn't imply to continents. For the record, I'm not sure if Russians form a majority in Europe, if we count only the European part of Russia. Either way, that's irrelevant. Ro was promised the whole of Banat, but we were fooled by the Allies and many areas with a Ro majority went to Serbia. To me, it is very relevant whom the region was initially inhabited by. Take Northern Bukovina, for instance: Stephen the Great settled many Ruthenians in the area until they formed a majority. At first they were loyal to us, but with the rise of Ukrainian nationalism, they put on a resistence until the region was reincorporated into their state. Is that fair to you? First you invite them, feed them, and then they bite your hand. It's like you invite me into your house; I then find a wife, raise a family, and throw you out, arguing that my family forms a majority in the house. Anyway, such debates are not entirely logical because we don't follow a consistent line of debate; and because we add unrealistic and sentimentical objects. We live in a different era where military confrontations are no longer worthy of investing in. We should focus on prosperity, advancing our civilization, humanity, improving the conditions for our domestic animals, and preserving our environment. One last thing: this debate was never political to me. I was talking from a historical perspective. --Thus Spake Anittas 22:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
FYROM is an aritificial based state. It should be divided between Bulgaria, Albania, and whoever else. We shouldn't have a Switzerland in the Balkans. At least Switzerland has a monarchial tradition which united the different ethnical groups into one entity, whereas the Slavic Macedonians listened to Serb fairytales and started believing they were ancient Macedonians. Unfortunatelly, I don't remember the borderclash with Serbia, but it wasn't anything significant. --Thus Spake Anittas 23:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Montenegro was, in the past, an established state. Such is not the case with Macedonia. Even though we live in a representative democracy, that doesn't mean that one can start falsefy history, as is the case with Macedonia. I know of Serb aristocrats being included in our royal bloodline and Serb warriors joining our ranks. Altough I've heard of Serbs being sent to found monastaries, the first metropolitans in Wallachia were Greek assigned by Constantinople: Iachint de Vicina (1359-1372); Hariton (1372-1381); Antim C. (1381-1402), and so on. But let'snot talk religion, even if it pertains to its infrastructure in Wallachia. You would have better luck in discussing that with Bir. He is also a scientist and is now struggling to find out how elephants and giraffes could fit in Noah's Arc. To go back to the Serb issue: as I've told you--I'm aware of our good relations, in the past. From 20th century onward, relations have been more chilled than they were before, but things are relatively good. --Thus Spake Anittas 00:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Montenegro has been an independent state in the past and their decission to revive that state was not based on artificial statehood making, as is the case with Macedonia. Yes, Banat was a part of the Hungarian Kingdom, but the area was vastly populated by Wallachians. You colonized a part of the region and then claimed it as your own. If it hadn't been for you, the natural process would have been for the region to join Romania, as it was meant to; but no hard feelings. Even though the Ro there haven't been treated very fairly, they have survived--altough with many slavized names which the Serb gov. imposed on them. I'm going to bed now. Goodnight. --Thus Spake Anittas 01:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XIX (September 2007)

The September 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

Delivered by grafikbot 10:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New template

Take a look: {{Austrian local elections}} What do you think? :) —Nightstallion 17:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Beograd mayor

Is Zoran Alimpić from DSS or DS?[51] —Nightstallion 06:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Montenegrin Minister of Culture, Sports and Media

I heard he was supposed to step down in September after being selected to become DPS' political director. Do you know anything about this whole issue? --Prevalis 22:32, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The book

Ack, just remembered you left me that note on my talk page -- I saw it shortly after you left it, but life was a bit chaotic. In any case, don't worry about it (I'd forgotten anyhow), but thanks for checking! If I can make the time, maybe I'll be able to find it myself, now that I'm not stuck in nowhereville-with-a-tiny-library... Though, not knowing what language it's in, I don't know how much it'd help me anyhow. No biggy, though, the article's fine even without the additional book, so it's not a major loss. -Bbik★ 12:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assembly of Vojvodina

How do you like the new Assembly of Vojvodina article I just created? Took me at least two hours just to get every thing in order before creation, lol. --Prevalis 00:57, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SYmbols

2004 flag

Well why was then the new flag adopted by DPS in 2004 precisely, for which reason? --PaxEquilibrium 16:40, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


1.I am not member of DPS and I don't know why are you asking me.


Tell me who gave you right to call Montenegrin symbols irregular? please specify that act of law where is said Montenegrin symbols are irregular. Your arguments such as absence of opposition in parliament are not good. i very don't care were they having a coffee or beer or something else, but that law is LEGAL and relevant and voted with over 50% majority.

Are you aware that you are insulting Montenegrin symbols?? This is your and only your opinion and YOU ARE NOT THE MAN WHO IS IN CHARGE TO SAY WHAT IS REGULAR AND WHAT IS NOT.

And principality of Montenegro flag was red with white eagle, (source www.crwflags.com)

put your ideology on some blog site, this is encyclopedia!

2. Currently there is a growing political movement toward calling Montenegrin language the official language of the country and toward using the Latin alphabet as the dominant one.

this is absolutely incorrect about Latin alphabet. Both alphabets in MNE are equal, while in SRB Cyrillic is dominant. This is yet only political ideology.

3. Your new article is cute, bit you totaly missed topic. Name of topic is "flag of montenegro" and you were listing there court, national and war flags. That article should contain official flag, (if exist) presidental flag, civic flag and eventualy historical STATE FLAGS (chonologicaly) and of coure without ideology and personal point of view.

please be detached!

(expect your answer here)Stefke 01:01, 15 October 2007 (UTC)




well, it's not up to me or anyone to guess is it regular or not. For editors is up to put text, of course supplied with relevant source.

I’m not sure about calling it "legalization", however now symbols are first time mentioned in new constitution.

In MNE parliament AFIK wasn't any boycott of opposition due to they received salary! They wouldn't receive if they were doing boycott.

Not true about favoring any letters. There doesn’t exist any strategy of favoring any kind of letters, they all have equal status, de jure. De facto is only up to citizens. On other hand we cannot do any statistic measure by counting number of letters written in L or Cyr. I said that Latin letters have "more equal" status in MNE than in Serbia because all documents in Serbian parliament (by constitution) are in Cyrillic.

Design of logos of political parties is only up to designers. I don't see that the change of logos have any connexion with favoring letters.

You mean "Mother tongue" when you say "maternal"? Yes, I saw new Montenegrin high school books where is written > > Mother tongue: grammar (Serbian, Montenegrin, Bosnian and Croatian language), 2006< < and it was written in Latin. It's up to publisher or Ministry of education, culture and sport, but in my opinion that might be because of solidarity to Croatian. However all public buildings in Montenegro have boards written in both letters, also names of streets + name in Albanian in places near Albanian border. So I can't say there is any kind of favoring, that's only speculation.


About "flag of MNE", Yes I think there should be only state flags, because for other flags is reserved "list of flags". See for example flag of Slovakia, flag of Estonia, flag of United Kingdom.

in most articles type "flag of X" are> > Description of state flag > Present civil flag, president's flag, naval jack; if exists > Symbology > Purposes and terms of use > Short about previous state flags > Some flags that look similar to X's flag > Trivia

While all other flags such as royal, court, flag of provinces/states are in article "list of Xs flags"

MONTENEGRIN FLAG HAS VERTICAL VERSION AND IS ALSO USED BY ARMY OF MNE.

Also I want to pint that Republic of Montenegro see itself as a successor of Princedom, Kingdom, PR and republic (1992-2006) of Montenegro. So there shouldn't be on that list Zeta, Doclea, and IS Montenegro. Another thing is Croatia which in some cases see itself as a successor of IS of Croatia (for example see article Croatia football team http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvatska_nogometna_reprezentacija, and you'll see that their first international and the biggest loss playing as a IS Croatia!, flag icon with -U- .

Stefke 12:16, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

no, I just said how high school book looks like. IN MONTENEGRIN BASIC SCHOOLS IS FIRSTLY LEARNED CYRILIC AND AFTER LATIN LETTERS, TOGATHER WITH ENGLISH LATIN LETTERS. If realy exist discrimination of CYR, it would be vice versa. I know a bunch of books printed in CYR :) OR, Should we make CENZUS in Montenegro and count how much CYR and LAT letters are written/typed :)


citation: Član 28 Državni i vojni simboli Knjaževine Crne Gore i Kraljevine Crne Gore, simboli Narodne Republike Crne Gore i Socijalisitičke Republike Crne Gore i simboli Republike Crne Gore utvrđeni Zakonom o Grbu i Zastavi Republike Crne Gore («Slu-žbeni list RCG», broj 56/93) uživaju zaštitu, kao i državni simboli utvrđeni ovim zakonom. so theese symbols are protected by Montenegro, you know (c) (r) (TM)Stefke 12:55, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

well, AFAIK Montenegrin language hasn't yet standarized, so for now is definied as a "naming of Shokavian dialect, ijekavian standard". So for a while threat it as a Serbian. Until academy of sience and culture adopts standard, then we'll see.
I haven't discussed with Bob or Cg about language yet.
Do you know what really means discrimination of CYrilic letters. Have you heard for this case: When Turkmenistan became independent, dictator Saparmyrat Ataýewiç Nyýazow , aka "Turkmenbasi", done some weard decisions (such as naming town by himself, abolishing opera, puting golden statues of himself all around Turkmenistan, printing money with his caracter, naming months by his family members(?!) ) including abolishing CYR due to "it's not known to Islam" , so he made his own Latin letters and that become first patent of Turkmenistan (ISO stuff). So he did to Turkmenistan what Cyril and Methodius did for people in Balkan. So can you say it's the same case like in MNE? :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stefke (talk • contribs) 18:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:Nebojsa Medojevic.jpg

Image Copyright problem

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[edit] Re:Nationalisms

I don't buy into propaganda of the Croatian sort, only claims that have some basis in independently verifiable history, demographics, anthropology and similar sciences. Given what I know about the situation, I tend toward the Serbian position, but if I see evidence to challenge that, I may reconsider. Biruitorul 22:18, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war: Need your help

Dont know if you ever saw it but on the pages Vrlika and Kukar alot of stuff, especially relating to Serbians from the area is being consistantly vandalized and erased. How do you stop an edit war and have people cite their absurd claims instead of having them erased?Kukar 00:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of data on Vrlika is happening non-stop. What do you do in a situation like this. Everything that has to do with Serbians in Vrlika is deleted and where there is a question of ethnicity Croatian is being inserted. I have not reverted the last change as I don't want to be a part of a stupid edit war. Plus, I can't always asked to change crap if a posse of Croats would let it stay up for more than 2 hrs. What do you think? Kukar 19:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect of Talk:Coat-of-Arms of Montenegro/Archive

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[edit] Srspka election

Who will the candidates in the election by? The nominations deadline was today, but I've found no English source on the candidates... —Nightstallion 19:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of flags of Montenegro

Isn't the flag of 1993 a "historical" flag, or is it still officially used in any way? --Camptown 11:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

So the flag of 2004 is not yet de jure official? --Camptown 11:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Constitution

Yes, it is a great day for Montenegrins, and yes, I do agree with you about the opposition of the Constitution. But I'm wondering why the Albanians opposed the Constitution. BTW, Ferhat Dinoša was abroad, so he couldn't represent his party at the session.

Never mind about why the Albanians opposed the Constitution. I just read your recent post on Nightstallion's talk page. --Prevalis 03:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe this will cause even more instability within the country because the pro-Serbian parties declare the new constitution as "anti-Serbian".

I would also like to know why DPS-SDP rejected all the amendments submitted by each party.

And also, yeah, I agree with you about the language, however, I'm wondering when it will be standardised. I believe the new language will have many Montenegrin elements, a little bit of Serbian and a little bit of Croatian mixed in together.

Also, do you know where can I get the full text of the new Constituion? If not, then when do you think the Government will make it viewable to the public? --Prevalis 03:31, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Croatia elections

Like you can see on this page [52] HDZ will win elections. HDZ 31.9 %, HSU 7.6 %(today goverment coalition), HSP 7.1 % (friend of HDZ); SDP 30.1 % , HNS 6.6 % , coalition 7.1 % : All in all 46.6 % (HDZ) against 43.8 % (SDP). Parlament seats:

  • HDZ coalition: HDZ 56, HSU 8, HSP 8, = 72 + SDSS 3 + Bosnia seats 4 or 5
  • SDP coalition: SDP 53, coalition 8, HNS 5, IDS 2 = 68

Needed parlamentary seats for majority is 76. HDZ coalition is today having 79 ! Only for your information I do not vote because in my thinking both solutions are bad. My comment about this pool: "We will have HDZ until 2015". I do not know if you are looking croatian elections for wiki, but now month before you have informations. --Rjecina 05:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

HDZ is using more money of other political parties. This is known fact. On other side they are controling goverment so they are having "friends" and "friends of friends" in all media (there is no need to speak about situation on state television).
About Serbian elections I am little in dark. You are having local or president elections ? --Rjecina 23:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Main Page Candidacy

I've put A LOT of effort into expanding the Constitution of Montenegro article, and guess what? It's been put up on the Main Page!

Well, I can finally get a night's rest after all that I've done to expand the article. 'Night. --Prevalis 06:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I kind of figured that while I was reading the news articles in Vijesti and in Pobjeda over the weekend. --Prevalis 23:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bosnia

The Neue Zürcher Zeitung summarises that reform here as follows: In order for the government to be capable of deciding something, a majority has to be in favour *and* at least one member from every of the three ethnic group has to be in favour. Actually, that doesn't sound too bad to me, and certainly not as if the Bosniacs were handed "all the power"... —Nightstallion 17:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Djuradj

Sorry. Believe it or not, I'm not ignoring you, just alternately busy and fighting with the internet. Checking my watchlist perhaps as much as once a day (or a sporadic mindless edit somewhere) has become the easiest, shortest, temporary distraction I can find when I need a quick break, so I saw your question about the missing link. Since I (somehow) noticed a difference in letters right away, it was a fast enough thing to double check what you were going for, but I never actually read the article (And so didn't answer, either, since I was hoping to read it in the next day or two, that obviously didn't happen.), just found the link in question. I am still interested, I just don't have the time (Haven't even added the rest of the information I found about Smederevo fortress yet.), but we get a break next week, so I'll take a peek then, ok? -Bbik★ 19:28, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Actually, it's a bit confusing. Some names are linked, but lead to different (if related) people, the succession box at the bottom doesn't agree with the infobox on the top, and a few repeat links by way of redirects. I'm going to do a little copyeditting to try and fix those bits, let me know if I understood things correctly or not. -Bbik★ 11:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Continuing discussion on my page to keep it together. -Bbik★ 15:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SRS

Moved conversation to my talk page for clarity. Nikola 11:03, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Answered. Nikola 11:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] re:heh

Why are you bothering me in the first place?Was that a joke to you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dalma84 (talk • contribs) 01:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal for List of Ottoman Empire dominated territories

If you're interested, please comment here. — AjaxSmack 05:43, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Vojvodina independence

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2007&mm=10&dd=26&nav_id=44876 Interesting, isn't it? —Nightstallion 13:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo

Another interesting bit of information: http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2007/10/86de01fd-66bd-413b-8032-10fcfcd52518.html Apparently, the EU is becoming more united on the Kosovo issue. —Nightstallion 21:34, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Another interesting bit: [53] [54] Referendum in 2020...? —Nightstallion 18:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Interesting poll. —Nightstallion 14:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo.

OK. well i suggest you draft a new one. Just keep in mind, there is a seperate 'History of Kosovo' article for the fully detailed version. The one on the main article should highlight important aspects. What exactly are you not happy with currently ? I would be happy to help outHxseek 01:11, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moldovan / Romanian / Montenegrin

Moldovan and Romanian are two names for the same language. Montenegrin, on the other hand, has a slightly different alphabet--more letters--than Serbian and Croatian, so that qualifies it as a distinct dialect. The two situations are not the same. PētersV 15:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I see where you are going. "Montenegrin" is nothing new, it arose out of a desire to have a langauge associated with their communal identity, but linguists will tell you there's nothing beyond the ijekavian-ekavian (dialect) split that has always existed. And the extra three letters are basically, to use a term I've used, manufactured, having never existed in any orthography before the 90's.
   The closest analagous structure would be Cyrillic Moldovan, created to carve out a discrete Moldovan identity apart from Moldavia's Romanian roots. To some degree (my take), that has succeeded with unanticipated consequences in the post-Soviet world. Everyone prefers to be a big fish in their own pond--ultimately, that's what sank Romanian-Moldovan reunification, although there were a lot of other completely unrelated factors at work.
   Legally, Moldova has used both Moldovan and Romanian with reference to its official language. And yes, the newly manufactured "Romanian-Moldovan" dictionary is (IMHO) rather similar to those "three letters."
   The Montenegro page lists Montenegrin, Serbian, and Croatian, so all bases covered. As official Moldovan documents call their language both Moldovan and Romanian, listing both for Moldova covers all bases as well. Even if Moldovan documents were completely consistent, it's still more important to list both languages (A/B, not A, B) so readers know the situation than to delete the reference to Romanian to prove a point. Going back to your original edit, I can't see supporting deleting the reference to Romanian in the Moldovan article country box and leaving it as Moldovan only. I'm neither pro-Moldovan nor pro-Romanian, I see no issue with listing both, and believe both should be listed. Your editorial judgement may differ. PētersV 01:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re

The main problems "decent editors" (if there is such a thing ;) face, are 1) the obscurity of the region (and its history), and 2) the recent wars.
The obscurity makes the disputes uninteresting, confusing, and (therefore) annoying to most admins and serious editors, while the recent war creates tensions, fanatics, and gives the uninvolved and (because of said obscurity) uninformed observer the idea that "they're all the same", which is, of course, a drastic, and potentially very annoying, oversimplification. DIREKTOR (TALK) 20:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Plakat03.jpg

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[edit] Montenegrin

Well, first of all, I don't agree that there should be a footnote. I think that people should be let to click on the link and find out the complexity of the situation by themselves (a complexity which a footnote can't really capture). Secondly, I added "by linguists" because the footnote implied that somehow the Montenegrin Government itself recognised that Montenegrin was a dialect of Serbian. I think it's a bit clearer now, but I also think that "considered commonly a dialect of the Serbian language" is POV. Why, for instance, is Montenegrin considered a dialect of Serbian, but Bosnian isn't? Why, at Valencian Community, do we not say that Valencian is "commonly considered a dialect of Catalan"? The whole point of the "Montenegrin language movement" is that it's a language independent to but mutually intelligible with Serbian. Whether this political movement makes linguistic sense is another thing, but I don't think the article should come to such judgements when we're talking about political recognition of languages. Ronline ✉ 14:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC) Gkmx 18:05, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Gkmx 18:06, 31 October 2007 (UTC)Greetings. The Albanian name for Montenegro was removed from the intro paragraph's translations because Albanian is recognised only at municipal levels. Its a minority language spoken by ~5% of the population. We will ensure that misinformation (especially, politically motivated) is removed from wiki articles. Feel free to delete this comment from your discussion page if you feel it has been misplaced.

Gkmx 01:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC) You stated, "Albanian is the only significant language spoken in large numbers next to Serbo-Croat. Albanian is officially recognized in the new Constitution of Montenegro, and that's not simply locally. --PaxEquilibrium 18:15, 31 October 2007 (UTC)" Serbo-Croat is not a language any longer. I believe that is reflected by Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs all having their respective, separate languages. By not recognizing one aspect of Vujanović's constitution, the declaration of Montenegrin as a distinct language, the rest of the passage on language is also nulled. Either it is accepted in its entirety or rejected. You could ask whether the argument of accepting all or nothing should then be applied to the rest of the 'constitution'. Unlike the rest of Vujanović's constitution, the language passage is the only one that is an offensive perversion of historical fact. Who are you to decide what is significant in terms of number of language speakers? Going by your reasoning, why did you not include the Bosniak, Croatian, Roma, or Macedonian translations?

Gkmx 12:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)Vujanović's constitution because it is not representative of the majority of the people from Montenegro. because 200,000 Montenegrins were not allowed to vote in the 2006 referendum. It's not a matter of how different the Albanian name is, its a matter of the Albanian name being irrelevant and placing it at the intro to the article is politically motivated.

Gkmx 12:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)The constitution is related to the statehood issue in that the constitution would, in all likelihood, not exist in the form it does today had MNE remained within the union.

[edit] Re: Transliteration

Well, first of all, for consistancy, both across Wikipedia and within the article. Second, because infoboxes seem to be as much summaries as official data as anything else, so if it's something that would be transliterated in the main text, it should be in the infobox as well. And third, to be nice to the "average" English speaker. -- I've taught myself Cyrillic, and can read it decently enough by now, if still really slowly, that it wouldn't be a big deal for me to check that what the infobox says is the same as what is in the parentheses in the text. Even as much as a few months ago, however, that was incredibly difficult. Admittedly, not as hard as Chinese or similar, because Cyrillic at least looks like an alphabet, if not one I'm used to, but it still meant comparing individual lines, rather than letters or words, because enough of the letters look similar enough that they can be pretty easily confused if you don't know what you're looking at/for. Since you've grown up with both, this probably sounds pretty stupid, but... well, it happens. And I'd be hard-pressed to believe that it's any different for the vast majority of English speakers. People shouldn't have to look somewhere else to find a transliteration, it should be right there. -Bbik★ 00:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC) (Oh, and I haven't forgotten about Durad, your explanations definitely helped, had midterms this past week, will try and look through it again soon.)

[edit] Re: Albanian name

You're just lucky I know a thing or two about the Albanian language (including pronounciation), lol :) --Prevalis 19:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kelmendi

Pax, are you sure the Kelmendi are of Serb origin? Well, I wouldn't say so because all of the people I know (Montenegrins and Albanians) that originate from Kelmendi all say that the Kelmendi are Albanians and reject the theory of Serbian origin. --Prevalis 20:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation. --Prevalis 22:09, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Constitution

This is the constitution of the nation we are talking about, if it says the Language is Montenegrin and not a dialect of anything then that is IT. Why do you constantly insist on putting your point of view into every Article and bully anyone who carries a different opinion than you? Critikal1 22:36, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

new event about MNE lang.>> first person with doctor disertation of Mne. lang. is Adnan Čirgić (27) http://www.rtcg.org/index.php?news&read=26187Stefke 05:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gojkovic

has left the SRS! :) —Nightstallion 15:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rugova

No I never knew that. It is interesting information, might even explain his somewhat moderate approach to an otherwise radical cause. Where did you get this info? Any links? There is no question we all have pedigrees in people we would consider foreign. I doubt my own lines of ancestry are totally Slavic, couldn't care less one way or another, I stand by a Slavic ideology just as Rugova represtend Albanian movement. Evlekis 11:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XX (October 2007)

The October 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

Delivered by grafikbot 14:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Elections

You were right, of course: http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2007&mm=11&dd=03&nav_id=45085 —Nightstallion 14:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Latest changes to 2006 Montenegrin election template

We usually include the parts of a coalition in the template -- is there a special reason why you removed them? —Nightstallion 22:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serbia

Seen this poll yet? http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/28892/serbians_would_grant_second_term_to_tadic BTW, what precisely are the "electoral reforms" the government agreed on? —Nightstallion 11:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo History

Hi. Yes i can help edit the hsitory section. (I am currently (re-)reading a book about the Balkans, so should come in handy. My forte is medieval times, etc, so i will be happy to draft an summarised an to-the -point version of this part. But I can certainly add to the Ottoman section, and can help with modern era. Regards

NB> apparently the latest round of talks have been no success, the Kosovar PM sees an independent Kosovo by the end of the year ? ! Hxseek 01:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unspecified source for Image:Mljet3.jpg

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[edit] {{Template:The Holocaust}}

I should note that the only part of the box I editied was attempts to fix redirects in the box. If I deleted anything, I apologize. --AEMoreira042281 04:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Finally, yes

That wikibreak was WAY longer than I expected... -- Xompanthy 23:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration

I have given demand for arbitration about Jasenovac and Holocaust. Because you have answered on talk pages of Jasenovac and other places you are inolved party [55] -- Rjecina 15:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Djuradj

A few more comments here. -Bbik★ 23:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quick request

Could you please take a quick look at Albanian Christian Democratic Movement? Someone asserts it is original research and has nominated it for speedy deletion, which is clearly nonsense, since there's a reliable source stating the party has an MP and is thus notable. —Nightstallion 23:42, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll look into it. --PaxEquilibrium 10:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Albanian Political Parties

referring to this version of my talk page

I merged them not because I think they should actually be together but because the article that was nominated for speedy deletion was not in a condition to stand alone, I did not want to see it go through a series of deletion-related nominations, I thought acting right away was good and I myself didn't have the knowledge to expand the articles appropriately. Consider it taking a less than perfect approach to remove the topic from the deletion frenzy. (I will put this passage on the talk page of the article for clarity) --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 10:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RC

Sources are listed in Red Croatia article. There should be added also sources from 13th century: Thomae Archidiaconi "Historia Salonitanorum atque Spalatinorum pontificum" and Chronicles by the same author. According to Toma, Croatian king (887-917) Budimir (Satamir,Satimerius) divided Croatian kingdom in 2 regions: Zagorje (eng. inland) and Primorje (eng. seaside); Primorje was additionally divided on White and Red Croatia. Croatian nationalism from 9th century?Zenanarh 15:03, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

You should present references for your claims, your explanation is just your word. What is its relevance? BTW when you show it I will show you opposite references so we'll have "dispution situation" but I think you already know it, don't you? ;))) Zenanarh 13:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Me, shift positions?

Do tell! Was it my removal of "Greater", or something else you were referring to? Biruitorul 18:07, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, OK. Actually I've been waiting for my Serbian nationalist contacts to write a rebuttal, but they did call Getoar's reply "too absurd to even dignify with an answer", and it looks like they're keeping their word, preserving my newfound air of moderation. Biruitorul 23:20, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Statements

His mandate has ended and he is become desperate. In my thinking Croats and Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina need to stop dreaming about Greater Croatia or Greater Serbia. If they do not like home country they can always leave !!!

In the end we will see if he will loose prime minister position. All in all that statement is s... My defense is that he has given statement which is in reallity not saying anything during election period (Kostunica is not having similar reason).

You will be surprised when you learn that I rarely looking HRT. Marketing or political propaganda I am not looking. God has given us daljinski so that we do not look propaganda. --Rjecina 20:05, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

My serious point has been that they can leave Bosnia but leave Bosnian territory to person which want to live in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
If they are crowned with Bosnian or Serbian crown it is not important. Serbia is then independent country. Can you imagine revert war on wikipedia if somebody write kings of English-French Kingdom because English kings has been de jure French kings until 1802.
Because it is english wikipeda and not serbian or croatian we will use english version of name so there will not be revert war between editors. --Rjecina 23:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Interesting ! I will like that somebody explain why I am not on check user list with Kubura, Aradic and DIREKTOR. I am not pushing POV or I am not important enough ?? Aradic is having less of 500 edits and he is important enough ....Greatest joke about him is his user page. Aradic speaks English at a near-native level.
I think that there has been similar time period when Dalmatia and Bosnia has been 1 country. If we look that way we can say that Tvrtko state has been first Yugoslav state (Bosnia+Dalmatia+Serbia) :))
With hope that you know why I have deleted statement in article Dragović Monastery I will not say anything
Which city is Serbian capital in Croatia ?
User:Justiceinwiki has taken too much of my time, but this story will now end. --Rjecina 05:12, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Pope Sixtus

Well, you were the one who originally put Srećko Perić, not me. Felice in Italian translated to Serbian is Srećko, Peretti is most likely Perić, but I don't know for sure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prevalis (talk • contribs) 20:01, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paranoia

I am not sockpuppet Hambla. Your reverting based on this is insulting. Why dont you check first, then accuse after? Your the one accusing everyone of sockpuppetry, when in fact your the only user pushing your this type of agenda - You then accuse others of this behaviour when challenged. There have been over the years many people debunking your edits, and you attack the user and not the content. How you get away wth this is remarkable. I do wait for your apology once your check user is completed. Uvouvo 22:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


It's not just paranoia - bad intentions are in question. PAX you're just an extreme nationalist POV pusher and everytime when challenged you accuse someone of sockpuppetry. And you've accused me to be Afrika Paprika? ROTFL Zenanarh (talk) 21:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Message(s) from Other(s)

Hi PaxEquilibrium. Though I cannot agree with you on many of your views on your area of supposed specialty, I have to say that I appreciate your devotion to protecting the integrity of sensitive articles in your special way. I do not have the time nor the will to challenge your edits. Since Wiki is not written by true scholars, the differences are trivial. I am not saying that you are not a scholar, nor am I saying that you are, simply that Wiki is not a product of the true academic community and therefore personal bias is perpetuated. BTW this is former user Gkmx. Seriously, thank you for your devotion. I am certain that your leave from the Wiki community will be strongly felt. Peace.

[edit] Greetings + Question

Hello. I am new to Wikipedia, but seem to be already caught in an edit war over at Bosniaks article. I saw your name in the history so I thought to ask you this question. Is it appropriate for someone to keep inserting that Bosniaks are not Slav because they have some Illyrian blood in them? I thought that ethnicity had to do with language, culture and customs, and since Bosniaks have Slavic customs, culture and language, isn't it safe to assume they do indeed belong to the Slavic ethnic group? Greetings. Frvernchanezzz (talk) 06:09, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind. We worked out our dispute. Hoorah!!! Frvernchanezzz (talk) 06:35, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Afrika paprika?

If you think it's Afrika, then place a sock tag on his page. Best, --Gp75motorsports (talk) 14:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

No, you posted something about him somewhere else. I forget where, though, but either way, since I used to be involved in the holy war against him...--Gp75motorsports (talk) 20:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serbian lands

Until visiting portal Croatia I have never edited articles about Croats and Serbs. After seeing what have users from Serbia done with that portal I have started to edit articles in which it is writen clear Serbian propaganda and hate editing against Croatia. In last 6 months I have seen everything. Best example are writing which is speaking how there have been many genocides against Serbs, but I will write now about Serbian lands... This lands are:Krajina, Slavonia, parts of Dalmatia and must of Dalmatian islands in Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Kosovo, Greatest part of Hungary, Serbia, Vojvodina. If we believe serbian editors in all this lands Serbs has been majority until genocide or something similar has happened !?

About HDZ and elections in Croatia you are having this: [56] In near future I will be on wiki vaccation. My only edits will be not finished jobs on wikipedia. --Rjecina 17:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1244

Hey there, Pax, what's up? I hope you're well. Things are heating up on Kosovo these days!

I tweaked your reference to UNSCR 1244 in the Kosovo Future Status Process article. It is true that the Serbs do claim that 1244 precludes independence. Specifically, they argue that the preambular reference to the FRY's sovereignty and territorial integrity imposes legally-binding obligations on other states not to recognize Kosovo's independence. They further argue that the resolution as a whole means that Kosovo's status should not be independence. The Kosovars, however, are already articulating the counter-argument: 1244's "sovereignty and territorial integrity" language is preambular, conditioned and does not impose legally binding obligations on UN member states or otherwise rule out a possible status outcome of independence for Kosovo.

Either way, let's just be faithful in the article to the fact that there is a legitimate difference of interpretation on this one. In my professional life, I've spent long hours with UNSCR 1244 -- I can attest that it is a complicated document, which was the product of many compromises in 1999, and is simply not as clear cut as either side would like to assert!

If you'd like to discuss further, let's chat about it on the talk page. Envoy202 (talk) 02:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


Hi, Pax,

Thanks for your long note! I'm fascinated with international law and find Kosovo to be an intriguing case.

I thought you did an excellent job laying out the legal arguments/interpretations that Serbia has employed to date. There is a counterargument, which I'll summarize below. Of course, these legal arguments are absolutely without prejudice to the practical, functional, or moral factors to be considered in the determination of Kosovo's future status. At the end of the day, those issues (e.g., is there any functional model under which the people of Kosovo and the people of Serbia could live together in the same state) will weigh more on the international community's conscience than legal arguments that are open to divergent interpretations.

As you recapitulated, the primary Serbian argument is that the references to Serbia's sovereignty and territorial integrity in 1244 preclude independence as a possible outcome to the Kosovo future status process. They further argue that general principles of public international law (e.g., the strong presumption in favor of sovereignty) preclude independence without the consent of Serbia.

So here's how the counter-argument would go:

First, let's look at 1244. The "sovereignty and territorial integrity" language is in the preamble and not legally binding. It is a merely a hortatory restatement of an existing principle of international that is due to all states -- it does not create any additional rights for Serbia. Furthermore, this language, located in the preamble, is not a "decision" of the UN Security Council -- under the UN Charter, member states are only bound to respect "decisions" of the Security Council.

Also, note that this reference to "sovereignty and territorial integrity" is qualified by references to the Helsinki Final Act and Annex 2 of the resolution. The Helsinki Final Act is interesting -- it says lots of things, ranging from the inviolability of borders, to the rights of minorities, to the promotion of mutual security, to self-determination. Interestingly enough, one of the explicit principles of the Helsinki Final Act is that all of its principles must be "interpreted taken into account the others." The second qualification is "annex 2" of 1244. This annex refers to Rambouillet and the interim phase of Kosovo's administration. As you probably know, Rambouillet had some carefully worded language about how status would be determined, including a particularly important reference to the "will of the people" along with other principles. Even if you did believe that this preambular language barred independence, these conditions significantly weaken that obligation and make clear that the Security Council was only referring to the interim stage of Kosovo's development, not the result of the future status process envisioned elsewhere in the resolution. Similarly, references to "substantial autonomy" were geared toward Kosovo's interim phase, not the future status outcome.

UNSCR 1244 envisioned and clearly aimed for a mutually-acceptable settlement, but it did not require one. If all options for a negotiated settlement have been exhausted, then the submission of the Ahtisaari Settlement may be interpreted to mark the end of the interim phase. Otherwise, the situation would remain in stalemate indefinitely -- that outcome does not seem compatible with the larger goals of 1244 to promote peace and stability.

The strongest argument that 1244 does not preclude independence is a common sense reading of the historical context of the resolution. The Security Council could have decided in 1999 to explicitly rule out independence as a possible status outcome, but it did not. Common sense tells us that the United States and European members of the Security Council -- all of whom were very aware that the Kosovo Albanians were unlikely to accept any other outcome than independence -- would not have accepted the resolution in 1999 if it ruled out independence as a possible status outcome.

If 1244 does not preclude independence as a possible status outcome, the Serbs fallback position is that general principles of international law do. But that argument also has holes in it.

Although Russia and Serbia will argue otherwise, Kosovo clearly has an extraordinarily set of factors that make it a special case in international law. These circumstances include the violent and non-consensual breakup of Yugoslavia, the ethnic cleansing and humanitarian crisis that precipitated the events of 1999 and the extraordinary nature of UNSCR 1244 itself, a resolution that removed Kosovo from Serbia's governance, placed it under international administration and envisioned a UN-facilitated process to determine status in which no possible outcome was specifically precluded. This combination of factors is extremely unlikely to be repeated elsewhere. In this context, recognition of Kosovo's independence does not necessarily run contrary to the principles of international law that generally favor the respect for the territorial integrity and sovereignty of all states.

I'm not saying I believe or do not believe either one of these legal interpretations -- I'm just pointing out that they exist and sound quite compelling. At the end of the day, however, states will not rely exclusively on these legal arguments when they make the decision whether or not to recognize Kosovo's independence. Over two years of negotiations, Serbia has never presented a compelling model of how Serbia and Kosovo could live together in one functional state (their "Hong Kong" and "Aaland Islands" examples have been surprisingly sparse on the details!). In fact, most of my Serbian friends are horrified at the prospect of sharing power with those Kosovo Albanian "savages" -- could you ever imagine Hashim Thaci as Serbian defense minister or Veton Surroi as the Serbian permrep to the UN? Their favorite (only?) argument to date has been a hyper-technical legal case, not a moral, practical or political one.

As a result, the international community will soon be faced with a situation in which 1) Serbia's position looks terribly unsympathetic, 2) the Kosovo Albanians are at the end of their rope after years of limbo, 3) the unresolved status issue continues to destabilize the entire region, 4) Russia shows no signs of playing a constructive role, 5) two years of negotiations have proved that all options for a negotiated settlement have been exhausted, and 6) there are no explicit legal prohibitions to independence. When confronted with all those factors, most states -- especially those with a stake in the Balkans, including the troop contributors to KFOR and the European states most vulnerable to new instability -- will decide to recognize Kosovo's imminent declaration of independence. Serbia and others (Russia) will make the international law arguments you expertly summarized in your note to me, but these arguments will not be enough to sway enough people.

Cheers!

-- Envoy202 (talk) 23:45, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Archont Petar

Hm, I've started reading this again, and I can't figure out any more if there is any difference between Vlastimir of Serbia and Višeslav of Serbia? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 17:19, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Croatia

According to Der Standard, most of the smaller parties would prefer a Social Democrat government -- so we've got good chances of losing Sanader. :) —Nightstallion 03:53, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AfD

Hi! Considering your interesting in elections and/or the EU, you may be interested in the ongoing deletion debate on Danish European Union opt-outs referendum -- if so, could you please voice your opinion in the AfD debate? Thanks! —Nightstallion 15:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Favour

Could you do me a favour and write an article on the Slovenian Zares party? I haven't been able to find any good English sources, but they've got six MPs... —Nightstallion 16:08, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Table of parties

Useful piece of information that fits tabular display well? It can give readers a good idea about the party due to political dynamics of a transitional country. Dunno, do you think it clutters the table? I'd like to add as much factual info as possible, but without cluttering the table. --★čabrilo★ 18:50, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you mind leaving it in the article for a bit? Somebody put a lot of work into collecting those years (I didn't even see it until now. I did add the column, but I didn't add the years). Once we decide to add more columns, we can separate the table in two, one to just hold basic information, and the other one to hold an overview of the facts. Perhaps create a Overview of political parties in Serbia article or such. Does that sound good? --★čabrilo★ 18:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Ah, cheers :) Well, if you still did do it, then your heart was telling you that it should be in the article :) --★čabrilo★ 19:08, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thaci comments

This statement sounds quite okay, I think -- if he really means it. —Nightstallion 15:05, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serbia SAA

This report makes me think that there will be the following strategy:

  • one fugitive for the signature,
  • one fugitive for the final ratification,
  • one fugitive for accepting Serbia as a membership candidate,
  • the last fugitive for starting accession negotiations.

What do you think? ;) —Nightstallion 16:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Name

I chose the name mainly because of my interest in Montenegro then, on forums I go under the name Hashemite mostly. I rarely use political words in my usernames. If that didn't answer your question, please excuse me and feel free to re-ask!--Petrovic-Njegos (talk) 19:59, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SOC-MOC

AFAIK MOC do not celebrate at all slava, as for example Russians, Greeks or Ukrainians. Thats the main difference.

  • I dont want to edit religion - related pages topics Stefke (talk) 14:45, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your recent edits

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[edit] Good luck!

Good luck on your exams! --Gp75motorsports (talk) 01:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rv Tvrtko

Hi. This edit has made, because Tvrtko was a Serb. If you want, you can also add that he was a Bosnian ruler, but fact about his Serbian descent we can`t to neglect. Do you speak Serbian (Croatian, Bosniak)? --Pockey (talk) 17:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Well he was a King of Serbs, and he was an Orthodox. Also, in book History of Serbs (Историја Срба) by prominent Vladimir Ćorović you can find many sources and fact about his Serbian descent. --Pockey (talk) 18:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
If he is an catolic, that does not meen he is not Serb. No, I am not admin. You? --Pockey (talk)
Da, ko si ti? :) --Pockey (talk) 18:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Na sh jesam, ovde nisam. --Pockey (talk) 19:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re to Re name

In Montenegro? I'd probably vote for a smallish liberalish party, like the Liberal Party. I suppose I could bring myself to vote for the PM's party, the Democratic Socialists or whatever. I'd happily tell you my other preferences in politics worldwide if you so desire:) --Petrovic-Njegos (talk) 17:30, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Novak Adzic

Really? wow. I always thought that Adžić was more of a neutral historian and never really saw him as a politician, till now that is. Thanks for the update. --Prevalis (talk) 20:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Huh

Was that a provocation? In a rather inflammatory tone.. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 22:35, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm open. If you read the articles linked in the "Assyrian userbox" you will find out a lot of things you never knew about those people, just like I did. I was touched by their plight in WW1 and the present Iraq War. Also, I was amazed by their survival through centuries. I DO support their independence, be it the size of Krk. Whatever.--TheFEARgod (Ч) 22:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
for Belgium, my stance is rather a sign of revolt towards the west. That country simbolizes to me the center of European globalisation, decision-making on behalf of other countries, Imperialist arrogance, monarchic corruption etc. I found that country fictional, rather than others, being held together only by dynastic and monarchic symbolic rule. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 22:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
sorry for the initial reaction, I didn't get it as you are the first to ask me about that and I was, like, expecting vandalisms/provocations and typed text usually hides or tricks the tone. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 23:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Croatia

SDSS not yet completely sold out to HDZ, B92 reports...? [57] —Nightstallion 20:51, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Both HDZ and SDP claim to have a majority: [58] —Nightstallion 22:01, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yo

Could you help out here? If not, could you please try to get another editor with mad skillz to give some input there. There's an edit war going on at that disambiguation page. One user insists on saying that Bosniaks are the one and only ethnic Bosnians - which is false as Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks all have equal claim to being "ethnic Bosnians", if there even is such a thing. Any help is greatly appreciated, as the parties involved don't seem to be working things out. - Frvernchanezzz (talk) 06:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Smederevo vs Fortress

Hey Pax, any idea when Smederevo started being a city with a fortress, rather than centered around/exclusively the fortress? I've been thinking that's where I'd stop with the fortress' history, once I get back to filling in the gaps, but I can't figure out when that should be, aside from sometime between 1500 and ~1800. -Bbik★ 18:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking more along the lines of... If someone were to flesh out the History section of Smederevo, the early history is based on what happened with the fortress, so they could summarize the History section of Smederevo Fortress, and leave a {{main}} link to the fortress for more detail. As compared to modern times, where the fortress remains, but as a tourist attraction, and the city's history covers far more than just what happens to the fortress -- that information should go entirely in the Smederevo article, not in the fortress article (Well, unless the modern history is specific to the fortress, ie the WWII explosion.). But where do the two times/perspectives split? Obviously, there's no single date, but some vague range that's a bit less than the 300 year range I currently have, perhaps? -Bbik★ 19:44, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Novak Adzic

Yes, I have read this, but I can't believe it...He is seriously like Slobodan Milošević in the sense of being an Albanophobe and an Islamophobe. I never did know he was a politician till now, which explains a lot. Also, retired persons being an obstavle for Montenegro. He should be beheaded for what he said. He'll grow old and realise that he'll be the obstacle for Montenegro (as per his lil statement). Well, "complaining spoiled little children" as they might be, they are certainly not boring, and only very few actually complain like little spoiled children. We'll see how it turns out for him when he's an old, retired person. He'll be "boring" will "complain like a spoiled child". And as for being a Serbophobe, well, it does seem evident in some of his works. And yeah, I did see him on TV, on the localised Montenegrin version of the Serbian talk show, Piramida, on Atlas TV. --Prevalis (talk) 22:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh my god, the man is crazy, literally. A Nazi supporter? He should be singing for the Croatian pro-Ustaša band Thompson, lol :D --Prevalis (talk) 00:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My political preferences... you asked for it!

I'll shoot:

Flag of Ontario Green Party of Ontario

Flag of Canada Green Party of Canada, former Progressive Conservative Party of Canada (progressive wing, we got ejected by the CA Western Redneck Alliance)

Flag of Quebec Action Democratique du Quebec

Flag of the United States formerly Democrat, now Indie

Flag of France Loyal Union for a Popular Movement or New Centre, Union for French Democracy until 2002 though I loathe Francois Bayrou

Flag of the United Kingdom Three-way split, Labour until 2005, now equally Tory or Lib Dems

Flag of Germany Free Democratic Party or CDU

Flag of Russia Yabloko

Flag of Serbia G17 Plus or Lib Dems

Flag of Montenegro You convinced me, PZP sounds very good

Flag of Croatia Any one of those liberalish parties, I remember the old HDZ.

Flag of Greece Yuck. No sane major liberal/centrist party, but would've voted New Democracy in 2004/2007

Flag of Italy Italian Radicals probably

Flag of Australia Australian Democrats, though they're fringe

Flag of New Zealand Maori Party!!!

Must've forgotten quite a few :)--Petrovic-Njegos 22:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo history

Hey Pax. I re-did the early to medieval history section. I think its fairly concise. See what you think should be added. Next i think we need to do themodern section Hxseek 06:08, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXI (November 2007)

The November 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot 02:28, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovan election results

According to Earth Times, they should be available...? —Nightstallion 15:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assistance

Hi. There are some users over at Talk:Bosniaks and related articles trying to promote the ridiculous fringe theory that "Bosniaks are not Slav, but are Illyrian/Aryan/Scandinavian who just speak a Slavic language". Some input would be of great use. Thanks. Frvernchanezzz (talk) 09:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Serbian election

EUobserver claims the next Serbian presidential election dates have been set for 20 January and 3 February...? Can you confirm or deny that? —Nightstallion 13:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Election results

I've found the Kosovan election results, but I haven't been able to find out which parties won the four remaining "general" seats instead of "reserved" seats only -- if you find out, please correct Template:Kosovan parliamentary election, 2007. —Nightstallion 17:58, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Sekula & Anthem

Fine, it seems that it refers to a particular event which has historically been greatly romanticized in Montenegro (also subject of Gorski Vijenac, greatest Montenegrin literary work), but has recently been called a genocide. The anthem cites an event. The claim that it "supports the genocide of Muslims" is innaccurate. The anthem refers to an event which has been called a genocide. If it's acceptable to say the anthem supports Muslim genocide, can I go around saying Petar II Petrović-Njegoš also supported Muslim genocie?

Also, you have not provided any sources for these alleged atrocities. I consider the claim controversial, which you have not provided a citation for. In what form did Drljevic have any influence on whether or not atrocities occurred? It seems he was a marginal figure during the war. His attempt at forming a Montenegrin government failed, and he was a minor pawn for the NDH. Drljevic was not responsible for the death of Djurisic's Chetniks. If you know of any actual atrocities he caused, please cite them. Saying that someone befriended officers at a concentration camp is also a controversial claim.

I am not trying to defend Drljevic as you seem to think. It just seems to me you are throwing too many harsh accusations without the proper references. --Thewanderer (talk) 20:19, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HSU supports Sanadar

See http://www.javno.com/en/croatia/clanak.php?id=105285 -- what's the current status now? —Nightstallion 16:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, at least HSS-HSLS has not been bought yet... http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/newsbriefs/setimes/newsbriefs/2007/12/09/nb-08 —Nightstallion 20:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Does the unified minority parties' platform better the SDP's chances? BTW, any luck with the official results yet? —Nightstallion 18:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poz

Ja ti rekoh ko sam. Da li bi rekao meni ko si ti? :) --Pockey (talk) 22:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Da li si korisnik samo ovde ili na jos nekoj drugoj Wiki? --Pockey (talk) 00:27, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovar Independence Rally at the UN Building in New York

Did you hear about the Kosovar Independence Rally that happened today at the UN Headquarters in New York? There were many Albanian supporters, including myself, participating at the rally. Unfortunately, there weren't as many people as expected, which is kind of weird because many people had announced that they would participate in the rally, when they didn't. Today is a great day for Kosovar Albanians and Albanians from all over the world alike. Looks like Kosovo wants nothing but independence and this rally only pushes Kosovo one step forward on the road to independence. :D --Prevalis (talk) 00:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo

Still need your help with Template:Kosovan parliamentary election, 2007 -- I tried emailing the CEC, but first they said what I wanted was on their website; when I replied that no, it wasn't, they didn't reply at all. Help? Do you know how the electoral system works? Maybe then we can guesstimate which parties received "normal" mandates in addition to minorities' mandates... —Nightstallion 19:27, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The EU is taking no chances: http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php?yyyy=2007&mm=12&dd=12&nav_id=46130 Obviously, they don't want to be caught in a transition period when the shit hits the fan. —Nightstallion 15:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Seal of Petar

I obviously haven't look the image's info. If IX century is the correct timing of the seal, than it excludes Petrislav; on the other hand, the book that I cited states as I wrote it in the article. If there is a more reliable source which supports the IX century timing, or otherwise contradicts Petrislav's ownership of the seal, than that image and sentence or two should be removed. VVVladimir (talk) 19:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll probably get it peer-reviewed, thanks for the suggestions. What do you think if we added in the image's info something like: "By another opinion, the stamp belonged to Petrislav, father of Jovan Vladimir." If this turns out to be false, it's easy to remove it, together with those sentences about Petrislav, since they are not indispensable in the article about Jovan Vladimir (though they add to the interest of it). I would do that to avoid conflicting information in the article and in the image's info. VVVladimir (talk) 18:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Crnojević Stag

I think I have seen the Crnojević Stag somewhere, not sure though where. I think I saw it on the internet while I was browsing around for research. I did happen to find a book of the Flags of Montenegro up for sale at the Ostrog monastery while visiting, though I didn't get a chance to purchase it. Best place to search for it would be in the Montenegrin archives I'm assuming, but I don't have access as I'm not in Montenegro right now (even though I was I was :P). --Prevalis (talk) 20:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

BTW, links for what? --Prevalis (talk) 20:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Pax, I think I have found the Crnojević Stag. Perhaps this maybe it: Image:Crnojević-Grb1.gif --Prevalis (talk) 01:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers

It is not important what I believe. You know very good that in nationalistic edit warring it is only important to have sources. Question about this numbers is similar to question about Serbs victims during NDH. We are having census data but nobody is looking this numbers because it is "only" important to write how Bosniaks, Croats or Serbs have been victims.

What you think about numbers on election spending in Croatia ?

This both things are bad ...

I am now on wikipedia only like vandal revert...--Rjecina 19:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Benedict Kuripešić has been Habsburg diplomat which has come to Ottoman court. He has writen about population, economy and other espionage stuff which he has seen during travel Vienna-Istanbul and back. --Rjecina 07:47, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
No. I do not work that way. My way of working on controversial article is to find many sources so that is not possible to delete or question facts in article. Answer on your question is that I will not write about Benedict Kuripešić. I am not having time to make serious edits on wiki but in the long term I think to write 1 very controversial/interesting article. Writing about Kuripešić in not interesting because nobody outside Croat-Serbs edit warring will not read article.. --Rjecina 13:16, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I am sure that Kuripešić is popular in Serbia but it is not translated trustworthy. My reason for that thinking is story about Stefan Vladislav king of Syrmia and how he has become ban of Slavonia. In his work is very clearly difference between Vlach/Serbs from Bosnia (example) and Serbs from Kosovo (example). Maybe I am having bad thinking about modern historical books in Serbia but I will be very surprised if they have published this difference ?
He is on list if I need him like source against possible vandals on Krajina or Croatia articles. Happy ?
It will be nice if we can nominate article with must false or misleading claims on wikipedia. For me winner is Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina (look medieval part of article). Ulmost every statement is false or misleading !! I do not understand how is possible to attack me when I for that and similar articles say that it is Serbian fantasy or mythology ?
Do not worry if you find something similar writen from Croatian side I will say that it is Croatian fantasy :)) --Rjecina 14:32, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I really do not understand fantasy about Constantine Bodin which has "ruled" central and eastern Bosnia in 1081 ??? Maybe I am mistaking in best scenario (for this fantasy) he has ruled eastern part of Herzegovina and nothing more... I write this because article Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina is not first article with so funny claim...
About Kuripešić my only comments is that maybe I will leave territory of Croatia for new articles :))
About election negotiations in Croatia I will only say that in june 2007 one croatian political leader has writen in his blog that HSS and HSLS has made deal with HDZ which will come in force if they will have enough votes in new parliament. Because of that all this negotiations are nothing else but farse so that they look good for people which has voted for them ("they are fighting for better deal")
I am tired of our discussions ! You will maybe ask why ?
They are taking time, you have simple refused to answer 2 of my important question (it has been few months ago and I do not want to look for that) and you have used my words from this page in discussion about article. I am sure that we will continue discussion on talk page of different articles --Rjecina 08:11, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
That map is stealing territory of Croatia and Byzantium. From Croatia map is stealing territory which is west of rivers Neretva and Bosna-Usora and from Byzantium is stealing Tuzla. This state has never come to Sava river ...This map is more realistic. You know why ? Because I am having similar map at home with latin names. "My" map is published by SFRJ ministry of education. 1910/12 map is published by Serbia in time when they are making preparation for "liberation" of Bosnia (soon after Bosnian crisis of 1908). --Rjecina 14:18, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

In my thinking he has not ruled Bosnia, but after looking evidence my conclusion is that he has ruled Bosnia province (now this is central Bosnia) which has come to his hands during Hungaro-Croatian war. To make long story short first thinking has been mistake. About your map with this sign "?" because they do not know who is controling this territory my advice is to destroy this map because it is clearly POV. I never look maps with similar sings which are showing Balkan region. --Rjecina 14:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

For me borders from that period are known. You will not known borders for every year, but changes which has lasted 10 years are known if they have happened in XI century. Croat-Serb example for that is Bosnia (province) which has been part of Croatia and then part of Duklja. For Byzantium of that time things are much easier because of Imperial birocracy. Because of that we know very good borders of Constantine Bodin state.
Croatian border situation in X century is not so good, but we are having sources for Tomislav battle with Bulgarians so this is showing border. Similar to that we are having in 991 Bulgarian attack on Croatia so this is now showing Croatia south-east border during this period. With that facts which you know I want to show you how borders are known.
It is possible to find without problem sources for important Balkan cities even for X century so borders are known ! Only real problem is need to dig very deep inside old books and dokuments..
I stay with my comments about historical maps with ownership sign ? for province. --Rjecina 15:57, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I really do not want to look old sources but I will give you example for Bodin state. Border town between Byzantium and Bodin has been Lipnik on Kosovo. We know that because of war. Similar borders we know because of similar things. I am sure that more about Balkan borders during end of XI century we can know because of Crusaders. From People Crusade we know that Belgrade, Niš and road between them are of Byzantium...
On other side who has controled small village in Bosnia, Croatia or Serbia we will never know because they have not been important.--Rjecina 22:59, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Maybe we will not agree but in period VIII - XI there is very low number of cities in Croatia and Serbia. Cities in Bosnia in that time are ulmost miracle. --Rjecina 01:24, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Because of our border discussion I have started to look Croatian historical sources. Example of that is article Croato-Bulgarian wars. Before reading sources in my thinking there has been only 1 war, but after reading there are 3 !? --Rjecina 18:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
In 3rd Samuil has attacked using Dalmatian route (Duklja-Dalmatia) with aim of taking Zadar. He has failed in that but he has not been defeated because there are no sources about Croato-Bulgarian battle. After that he has returned home using Bosnian route (Zadar-central Bosnia). After looking sources my only comment is that Croatia is having many myths about X century and it will be hard job to change wikipedia articles. --Rjecina 18:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

If you look with how many croatian articles this article is in conflict ... Right name for article is Croatian-Bulgarian Wars ? If answer is yes you can move article on right place.

You know what my books are saying about Bosnia in IX, X, XI century. Nobody has ruled Bosnia. From time to time we are having Croatian or Serbian warmonger which is taking Bosnia. After his death his heirs are loosing control of Bosnia. Do you agree ? --Rjecina 19:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

You have done very good job so I will not make edit changes but write you hear what are mistakes. Byzantium has recognized Stjepan Držislav King not Duke (he has more liked title Great Duke because he has given title Duke to son during his life). During war Zadar is Venetia town and Samuil has taken other Dalmatian towns. Samuil has supported "rebels" even after 998 but there is no other attacks. After that we are having civil war between King supported by Venice (in Croatia and Slavonia) and rebels supported by Samuil in Dalmatia and croatian part of Bosnia. --Rjecina 20:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Prevalis has made futher edits so I have added changes about third war. --Rjecina 21:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
No problem. Thanks for help editing article. --Rjecina 21:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Your article Podgorica Assembly is very, very POV. I will give little help so that article become neutral ...--Rjecina 16:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

I agree that it's highly unlikely that there are 9 million self identifying Croats in the world. I didn't disagree with your edit, but I only reverted the population part because I saw that it was "sort of" (grudgingly is a better word) agreed to leave it at that 6.2 - 9 million figure. Frvernchanezzz (talk) 09:09, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

P.S, looks like someone didn't like the change on the Serbs article either. Frvernchanezzz (talk) 09:15, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers

Then, numbers should be analyzed and relevant (and cited) approximation should be added. --millosh (talk (meta:)) 11:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hm?

About what? --Ivan Bajlo (talk) 23:19, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Nothing, I only fixed missing / which resulted in 404 at my website, there are 3-4000 error 404 a month so I'm trying to fix at lest ones I can, most others come from outdated websites which haven't been updated in years. --Ivan Bajlo (talk) 11:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bajram

Iskreno se zahvaljujem za čestitku. Šta ima novo? Evo i ja sam kao ti otišao u tzv. "retirement". Eto samo prije nekoliko godina bili smo toliko aktivni. Kada se sjetim rasprava između Bosanaca, Hrvata i Srba. PANONIAN, Bormalagurski, Estavisti(Hadžija), Bosniak, Emir Arven, onaj Hrvat iz Australije, Ancient Land of Bosoni itd. To su bila vremena Wikipedije...lol...MAKAR sada nema više toliko nacionalizama (koliko vidim). Veliki pozdrav, Vseferović (talk) 08:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Vseferović, vala imas i pravo. Hvala Bogu sto nema vise onoliko nacionalizma ka' prije. :) --Prevalis (talk) 22:45, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Pax-e, hvala za čestitku. Sve najbolje, brate. --Prevalis (talk) 22:45, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Radič Crnojević

I created an article about Radič Crnojević. Hope you like it. :) --Prevalis (talk) 01:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thaci versus Ceku

You asked me about who I thought would be better for Kosovo's minorities: Ceku or Thaci. That's a tricky one. I think on balance, however, Ceku has always understood the needs of minorities better. He has historically been more willing to speak in Serbian, visit minority villages and knock the heads of Kosovo Albanians who were doing things to screw over Kosovo Serbs. Thaci does have, however, a lot of nationalist street cred that allows him to do bold things for minorities (the whole "it took Nixon to go to China" effect). But I never sensed that Thaci realized intuitively how much damage has been done to Kosovo Albanian interests by the systematic mistreatment of Kosovo Serbs. Ceku, however, did. Furthermore, I have always sensed that Ceku better realizes the moral imperative of promoting better ethnic relations. Thaci is more prone to go through the motions to please the international community. What do you think? Envoy202 (talk) 03:13, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Election

That table looks very good and it would be great to use it in Serbian election article. Avala (talk) 14:54, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Islamic Community of Montenegro

Sure, not a problem. I'll do the best that I could, but we should also be worrying about the information about the Roman Catholic Community of Montenegro. BTW, why do you think I am a fan of the late Professor Nikčević? --Prevalis (talk) 02:58, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Local and provincial elections

Supposedly on 3 February, together with the second presidential election round...? —Nightstallion 14:18, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Montenegrins & Tadic

Wonderful! Tadic and I then share the similar ancestry but I never put that in my biography nor would I declare my nationality as Montenegrin for having ancestors who lived there. Untill you find a link to that interview where he states he is proud of Montenegrin nationality origin please do not re-add that his parents are Montenegrin into the article especially since only his father is from Montenegro.--Avala (talk) 23:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

You must admit that doesn't look too serious ;) Kurir were the one to claim Tadic is Ustasha himself as well so they are hardly to be trusted. --Avala (talk) 00:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Country data Montenegro

Hope that fixed it. I'm going offline now, so anything else that comes up should be handled with an {{editprotected}} (or IRC, if it's really broken). east.718 at 09:45, December 25, 2007

[edit] Petrislav or Dragomir?

Cite your sources (verifiable and relevant) for the following edits that you've made in the article Jovan Vladimir: 1)Dragomir is the successor of Jovan Vladimir, and 2)Dragomir is Jovan Vladimir's father(?). Or is it all just your original research? As you can see, every bit of information in the article is referenced, except your edits now. I intend to get the article peer-reviewed in several days. VVVladimir (talk) 18:54, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay. Please pay attention to the top of the page (immediately beneath the title). We can see there: "? Драгомир стриц Ј. Владимира". Beneath that we see two red lines: the left one connects "Драгомир" with "Свети Јован Владимир", and the right one connects "стриц Ј. Владимира" with "Стефан Војислав". We know that Dragomir is Stefan Vojislav's father, and that the same Dragomir is also Jovan Vladimir's uncle (see, for example, Ćorović). So, is it not obvious to you that there is an error on this image – the left red line should start a little more to the left of its current position, immediately beneath the question mark (?), indicating thus that Jovan Vladimir's father is unknown (that is, according to the author of this diagram). Also, some more space should be put between "?" and "Драгомир", and the space between "Драгомир" and "стриц" should be reduced, and people probably wouldn't get so sadly confused.
So, this source states that Vladimr's father is unknown, and the book I cited states that his father was Petrislav, relying on the Chronicle of the priest of Duklja. I think the Chronicle is not so unreliable on the matters concerning Vladimir, because it is relatively close to his time (the second source you gave also uses the Chronicle, stating the same as my book on this question).
Your second source cites two sources: an author Fine, and the Chronicle. According to the Chronicle, Dragomir never achieved to rule Duklja, and Fine claims that "he succeeded his nephew as DRAGOMIR Knez of Duklja and Trebinje (part), as the vassal of Byzantium." We can use this, though "vassal of Byzantium" is strange, because two years after Vladimir's death the Bulgarian Empire was still in power, and probably continued to rule Duklja and Travunia, and Dragomir was killed before Byzantium destroyed that empire.
I hope we can now move on from these questions? VVVladimir (talk) 20:11, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:SNSflag.jpg

Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:SNSflag.jpg. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia constitutes fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Thewanderer (talk) 18:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:CedaJovanoviclogo2008.jpg

Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:CedaJovanoviclogo2008.jpg. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Wikipedia constitutes fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale.

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Bot tagged your image for deletion so that's why I removed it from the article on election (you asked why). Btw I was looking through some other election articles and I think that we should keep photos of face portraits. --Avala (talk) 20:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


Looking for some photos I noticed this
http://ldp-vienna.com/Ceda-super.jpg
http://www.sps.org.yu/cms/images/stories/2.jpg

Quite funny if you ask me :D --Avala (talk) 23:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo and newspapers

Just thought of this question: Are there any newspapers or media stations in Serbia which support Kosovan independence? I suppose B92 would be fairly neutral on the issue compared to many others, but is there any newspaper which has the LDP's stance on the issue? —Nightstallion 12:00, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you think Kosovo and the EU will wait until after the provincial and local elections or not? —Nightstallion 11:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orphaned non-free media (Image:CedaJovanoviclogo2008.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:CedaJovanoviclogo2008.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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[edit] Cetinje & co

in Montenegro article (as well as others) is box "capital and largest city", so it's not good idea puting "Pogrorica, Cetinje: coordinates of Podgorica". It sounds like New York, New York; like podgorica is in cetinje region. it's better to put Cetinje in footnotes like in Netherlands article, where is Haag seat of throne. in constitution is article4: Capital is Podgorica and the Old Royal Capital is Cetinje, so it is DE JURE, not de facto. Stefke (talk) 15:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Year's

Srećna Nova Godina!!! Sve najbolje. --Prevalis (talk) 20:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)