Talk:Paul Wellstone

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Reportedly killed in plane crash this A.M. 10/25/2002

Let's slow down and take an hour to confirm this. --Ed Poor

Thanks for that glowing tribute, Cunctator. --Ed Poor

Contents

[edit] Early Life

First of all, whoever created this phony story of Paul Wellstone's upbringing as a preacher in the 1950's deserves to be kicked off Wikipedia. That's patently false -- and I did not appreciate having to clean up the vandalism.

Secondly, I made a minor edit to his Early Life. Paul was never "fired" from Carleton College in the 1970's. What happened is the Trustees considered firing him, but when his students protested and held a sit-in, they ended up giving him tenure. Wellstone became the youngest professor at Carleton College to ever get tenure. [Source: Professor Wellstone Goes to Washington by Dennis McGrath and Dane Smith.]

[edit] Death

I don't mean in anyway to trivialize Paul Wellstone's death through this, since he was a great man and senator, but I think it may be worth noting that many people feel that he was assassinated. It is worth noting in the article I believe since this is quite a wide held view in Minneapolis by the left leaning politically active. One common thing I have heard a lot on was that they barely found any surviving pieces of the victims, which would be quite rare for a low flying and low speed airplane.161.225.1.12 02:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Provide sources with evidence if you would like to have murder allegations included. As far as your analysis, I believe you are incorrect about speculating about how much damage would occur in the situation as described. The low speed caused a stall, at which point the aircraft is not flying, it's falling like a rock. - AbstractClass 01:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


"Because of the poor qualifications of the pilots, Wellstone's death is a popular subject of conspiracy theories in Minnesota." - is this really a proven fact? Everyone now knows that these pilots have "poor qualifications"?? Both of them??? Everyone seems to have known except Wellstone?? Why didn't anyone tell the poor fellow who he was flying with and not to fly with them??
"The final two radar readings detected the airplane traveling at or just below its predicted stall speed given conditions at the time of the accident." - who were the investigators of the crash? I've read so many different versions now, and cant find out why I should trust one version more than another. Can anyone clarify? 213.172.204.59 23:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
The NTSB investigates all aircraft crashes in the United States. There should be only one "official" accident report from them. AbstractClass 01:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
You shouldn't have to provide proof that there was a conspiracy to simply state that that a conspiracy theory exists. Mathchem271828 04:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wellstone moment

I was trying to find what is the meaning of the phrase, "wellstone moment" and ended up here. Should this article mention that politicizing the funeral was the origin of the phrase "wellstone moment" ?

[edit] Memorial service

"Mississippi Republican Senator Trent Lott, after being largely heckled by the crowd during his speech, left before the service was over."

It's my impression that while Senator Lott did attend the service (and leave early), he did not give a speech. (I was in the arena for the service, but I'm relying on my memory here, not on a definite written source.) Most of the VIPs, of both parties, sat together in one corner of the arena, some distance away from the main dias. They entered the arena shortly before the beginning of the service, when most of the crowd was already seated, and it was at this time that the Republicans were heckled--not while anyone was giving a speech. Four large screens hanging in the center of the arena were used to show live TV images of the event, and the cameramen focused in a rather informal way on the VIPs as they entered. Without those giant images, I don't think very many people in the audience would even have been aware that the VIPs were present, because they were part of a crowd of thousands, and took no part in the ceremony.

I would also like to question the use of the word "largely" in the sentence quoted above. While booing and hissing certainly occurred, it was not my impression that the crowd was all of one mind about this behavior.

The whole section on the memorial service need to be rewritten. I watched the entire service on TV and it more resembled a political rally than a memorial service. There is no mention in the article on Senator Lott being heckeled, and that there were beach balls bouncing around like a concert. — Steven Andrew Miller (talk) 05:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Just checking, but does the "backroom dealings" paragraphs seemed brutally honest or slightly conservative?

refs: Senator 'Softie', Washington Post

"An old leftie protester on campus, he grew to tolerate the chummy machinations of Congress and even came to relish the give-and-take of retail campaigning."

Paul Wellstone, 58, Icon Of Liberalism in Senate, The New York Times

"But he soon warmed to the ways of the Senate and became especially adept at the unusual custom of giving long speeches to an empty chamber."

"Backroom dealings" may not be best term. "Cloakroom politics" would be a better description.

I removed/replaced the following defunct external links:

--Minesweeper 09:10 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)

"On October 25, 2002, he was murdered at the age of 58 with seven others in a plane crash in northern Minnesota."

Murdered? Could you change it to killed? As far as we know, no one killed him. -anon

[edit] Opposed all force?

I understand that Wellstone did vote for the use of force in Afghanistan: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=1&vote=00281

I don't think he ever claimed to be opposed to all force. He voted to use it against Afghanistan and against using it against Iraqi. He made the right call in both cases IMO.

Being opposed to all force unfortunately is unrealistic in this world. Should congress have rejected FDR's war declaration after Pearl Harbor? Gandhi advocated using non-violence against the Nazis [all least he did in the movie], that wouldn't have worked obviously.

[edit] Boschwitz letter

Some credit the upset defeat to a letter Boschwitz wrote to Wellstone days before the election, accusing him of being a "bad Jew" for marrying a Gentile and not raising his children in the Jewish faith. Wellstone's reply, widely broadcast on Minnesota television, was, "I guess Senator Boschwitz has a problem with Christians, then." Boschwitz, like Wellstone, is Jewish.

it been 15 years and I was in High school at the time but I think Bosch sent that letter to a Jewish group not Wellstone himself, why whould he send a letter to Wellstone? perhaps need to double check that 03:57, 21 October 2005 (UTC)Smith03 03:58, 21 October 2005 (UTC) smith03

Yes, you're right--I think it was a fundraising letter.

[edit] Cheney & Memorial Service

In the paragraph that mentions Cheney at Wellston's (don't get cheeky here--he's not and was not a god Rossp 18:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)rossp) memorial, I added: Family members of the crash victims requested that Vice President Richard Cheney respect their wishes and not attend.

[edit] Deceased persons in certain categories

Someone before me removed Wellstone from "pro-choice politicians" and then it was reverted. I am reverting for a different reason- should a dead person be included in a list such as that ? I will leva ethe others (such as Jewish Politicians, etc) until clarification. Jcam 01:12, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "justly or not"

This sounds like a gratutious introduction of POV; in this case, to characterize the criticism as unfair.

Or it is simply a redundant expression and weak writing. patsw 01:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "A" Liberal?

The word "liberal" is an adjective, not a noun.

Removing.

Robko626 14:29, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

it's in my dictionary:

noun: a person of liberal views. • ( Liberal) a supporter or member of a Liberal Party. tej 02:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Depends on the capitalisation, I would strongly suspect. 'liberal' and 'Liberal' are two separate words. Badgerpatrol 12:37, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Both Webster’s and American Heritage classify liberal (with a small ‘l’) as both an adjective and a noun, you’re just plain wrong "Robko". Make sure you're correct before making edits

http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary/liberal http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/liberal

Lenbrazil 16:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] incumbent protection act of campaign finance reform

was Wellstones' baby,and was straight out aimed at silencing the NRA,as Wellstone himself stated on the floor of the Senate.I have added these facts to the article,and invite your help to expand this wonderful example of gun control legislation and subverting the Constitution.Saltforkgunman 05:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Looks like somebody doesn't like the facts.Hey Ed.Give it up.The facts speak for thenselves.Saltforkgunman 02:09, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Have attempted to craft an NPOV version, with citations, that everyone can live with. As noted in the addition, there were critics from all across the political spectrum critical of the Wellstone Amendment. Still, the Supreme Court upheld it, on a split vote. So, obviously, this could shift on the next challenge to a 4-5 vote, as the court changes. Yaf 03:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The conscience of the Senate."

At least three times, a passage has been reverted out calling Wellstone "the conscience of the Senate". The reason for this is that there is no attribution or context given. In the absence of attribution or context, it leaves the appearance that Wikipedia is characterizing Wellstone as "the conscience of the Senate", which is decidedly POV and non-encyclopedic. Now, if someone can come up with an attribution and context, that would be fine -- something like, "Congresman so-and-so, speaking at Wellstone's funeral, characterized him as 'the conscience of the Senate.'" Or whatever. Brandon39 04:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Only Senator to Vote Against Iraq War During Reelection Campaign?

That just isn't true. Carl Levin and Jack Reed, just to name two, voted against the war and were running for reelection in 2002. Removing.

Yes, he wasn't the only Senator up for re-election to do so -- add Dick Durbin too. But he was the only one who was in a tough re-election fight. Durbin, Levin and Reed faced only token opposition, and unlike Wellstone, were not the White House's #1 target.

I suggest we edit it to say he was the only one up for re-election in a tight contest to vote against the war.

[edit] League of Women Voters

I don't think I'd characterize the League of Women Voters as a "special interest group". Aren't they pretty politically neutral? Appraiser 17:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Silencing the NRA

When I first began to put in the facts about Wellstones gun control antics, my edits were reverted by someone who was uncomfortable with the new text about his self described political heros.I then enlisted the help of an editor that is better at this than I am.He crafted a NPOV version that he thought everyone could live with.On JUN 08 06 USER Paulhogarth was evidently unable to live with the facts about the Senators remarks on the Senate floor and deleted the last sentence of the paragraph pertaining to the Wellstone Amendment.I reverted to include the NRA reference and one Badgerpatrol came along and reverted out the NRA reference, citing POV.

There is good news, ladies and gentlemen, the saltforkgunman has returned to fight for truth, justice, and the American way.I have put the last sentence of the paragraph back in.

Deleting sourced facts because the facts make the subject of the article look like a Commie looks like a cheap political trick, not good editing.I can not assume good faith on this one.There is no NPOV/POV issue here.There is only a revisionist liberal agenda going on here.

If you really feel that the NRA reference is POV, then reword the sentence so it doesn't look POV to you.But simply deleting my work will not cut it anymore.When I first came to wikipedia last winter, I said I wasn't going to engage in what I called 'retarded edit wars'. It looks as if I was mistaken.This is worth going to an edit war about.

How do I get in contact with the administration of wikipedia, so I can get them involved in this?

I will change the LVW to PETA, as it is more special intrest.

Other than that, have a nice daySaltforkgunman 18:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The 'source' is a post quoting NRA lawyers on an NRA messageboard. There is no direct quotation of Wellstone on the Senate floor, and the NRA lawyer's interpretation of Wellstone's comments is hardly an impartial source. The last sentence should be removed unless a better source can be found. 24.225.86.217 05:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I've searched and have been unable to find any reference to Wellstone stating that it was his intention to silence the NRA from sources other than the NRA itself or people quoting the NRA. The last sentence has thus been removed until better evidence can be procured. 24.225.86.217 05:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like an excuse to me.The "source" is as good as any, since it comes from the most powerful lobbying group in the U.S.It would be hard to wrongly interpret Wellstones comments.Consider the word 'silence'.Saltforkgunman 18:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Consider this. http://www.NRAILA.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?ID=60

I have been looking for a different source, but so far can't find one.It still sounds like an excuse to me.Who else do you suppose it was aimed at?Saltforkgunman 02:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

A blog is not a valid source. If Wellstone said it on the Senate floor, find the transcript and quote him. Appraiser 02:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
If Senator Wellstone actually used those words they would be in the Congressional Record. Major libraries have it. And if the NRA asserts that those words were used it should not be difficult for it to provide a citation. The NRA-ILA source did not claim that Sen. Wellstone actually stated he was trying to "silence" the NRA; that appears to be a characterization of his position. If something is represented as a quote there should be a citation to the actual words, not to a characterization of them by an advocacy group. And that applies regardless of the issue in question. Kablammo 04:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

OK Saltforkgunman 22:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Cover-Up Claims revisited (again)

I've seen claims like this one several places on the net: "69% of Minnesotans blamed a "GOP conspiracy" for Wellstone’s death." if this is an actual fact I would think it would be noteworthy if nothing only because of its historical value. I suspect local Minnesotean (?) papers would be the best source to verify such a claim. -- 213.172.204.59 23:51, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I find it exceedingly unlikely that 69% of minnesotans think Wellstone was murdered (as discovered by any reputable polling organization). If that many people in Minnesota thought that as shown by on a sound poll and that is well sourced, then it may be noteable but if so it ought to be balanced with the fact that there was no evidence to this effect and was ruled out by the NTSB else it might add misleading credibility to a wild conspiracy hypothesis. I really find it hard to believe though and will be surprised to see a legitamate source. AbstractClass 02:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I think whoever provided this fact should take it upon themselves to verify it if they want to add it to the page. Mathchem271828 04:52, 26 July 2007 (UTC)