Talk:Paul Fromm (activist)

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[edit] Jew?

Ain't Fromm a jewish (jiddish) name ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.217.49 (talk) 22:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Para del?

Deletions of whole paragraphs must be explained. Ground Zero 18:08, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistencies

This paragraph should be deleted.

"In 1991, Fromm was instrumental in helping former Toronto Sun education writer Judi McLeod - also a member of Fromm's organization C-FAR "Citizens for Foreign Aid Reform" - start the right-wing newspaper "Our Toronto" now known as "The Toronto Free Press" and "Canada Free Press". Fromm and McLeod were close through mutual friend Richard James who in turn was a close personal friend of Ernst Zundel."

This is a maliciously made falsity and should be removed. Judi McLeod is anti-racist, has written articles criticising Ernst Zundel, of whom she and Canada Free Press would seem to have a very low opinion thereof. She never even had any contact with Paul Fromm, as far as I know. Nor was she ever a member of C-FAR, which is a neo-nazi front. Hobbes000 21:11, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

McLeod's newspaper has published racist articles including this gem [1] "The admission of Turkey into the European Community will be the final blow to the Christian identity of Europe. Once the Turkish people are free to live in and work, legally, in the European nation of their choice, the problem will not be Paris burning but a deluge of Islamic immigrants into the Christian world which will be unstoppable. If one remembers with horror the acts of Black September, the Red Brigade, or the sectarian violence in Yugoslavia; then, just wait until every citizen of Turkey has a European Passport." You claim McLeod has written articles denouncing Ernst Zundel, Paul Fromm, etc but these articles are nowhere to be found. Links, please. Or were you hoping you could bluff us? That's a typical Judi McLeod tactic. In fact Judi McLeod refuses to write anything against Paul Fromm and published a short letter to the editor from him. --Cyberboomer 00:51, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
The author of the paragraph has been asked for a citation, and the request is in the article itself. I'm sure he'll be by to explain himself soon enough. Jayjg (talk) 21:52, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not the author of the paragraph in question (I put it back in after someone took it out but I did not put it in originally). It is consistent, however, with what I personally know about McLeod from observing her in the 1980s though (for what that's worth). Homey 22:56, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

IE I know she has had contact with Paul Fromm because I saw it with my own eyes circa 1987. Now, that is original research and is not, in and of itself, sufficient for including the fact in the article - however, I wasn't the actual author of the paragraph making the allegation - I just happen to know it's credible from my own experience. Homey

It being original research (is the proper format for a response in a talk page btw?), and still without a citation as asked, I think we can agree to take it off for now. Ok? Hobbes000 15:29, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

In 1991, Fromm was instrumental in helping former Toronto Sun education writer Judi McLeod - also a member of Fromm's organization C-FAR "Citizens for Foreign Aid Reform" - start the right-wing newspaper "Our Toronto" now known as "The Toronto Free Press" and "Canada Free Press". Fromm and McLeod were close through mutual friend Richard James who in turn was a close personal friend of Ernst Zundel.[citation needed](needs verification)

I've put it in as a "hidden comment" (which means readers can't see it but also means it doesn't get lost) and will go through the history and see if I can find who added it. Homey 15:45, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

  • Your hidden comment wasn't hidden. Since I don't know how to do it myself, I took it out for now. If you can redo it properly, that'd be great. Hobbes000 18:27, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
    • It's hidden now. Ground Zero 18:35, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
      • I have removed this from the page itself, as although it isn't visible, it's still searched by Google. Hopefully its presence here on the talk page will be enough to remind editors that it's there and needs verification. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 18:39, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

The allegation was added on July 27th by an IP user, 66.98.152.31 . This makes it harder to trace, I'll leave a query on the User's talk page anyway. Homey 15:50, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

For now, that seems acceptable to me. It really looks like an attempt at slander, but if it can't be seen, then I don't really have a problem with it. Although, if we can't find a citation in the next several weeks, or month or so, I think it's best to take it out altogether until something reenters to change the equation. Hobbes000 15:57, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, I have a personal experience that leads me to believe the claim is not "slander" but is perfectly plausible (particularly as the passage was contributed by another user, not myself). However, personal experience is not sufficient evidence for wikipedia articles so I can't rely on that as a basis to retain the comment. McLeod may have changed her views over the years but being familiar with her columns in the Toronto Sun in the 1980s (particularly on apartheid) and having observed her behaviour closehand I have no problem believing that in the 1980s she was close to Fromm and shared a number of his views at the time. Homey 16:46, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I doubt she ever had those views, and I shall endeavour to look for old articles of hers which prove the contrary when I am next at the Reference library. However, given that you and I can both google articles of Canada Free Press and use it to find articles that demonstrate verifiable clear disgust and dislike for neo-nazis and their positions, and that I can't find anything at all on Fromm helping her found the newspaper, I believe it to be inappropriate and irresponsible to put in the article until we have actual proof beyond original research. Also, see my comment above on having had to take out the paragraph because the hidden paragraph wasn't hidden. Hobbes000 18:27, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

It's now hidden properly. Anyway, I did say that my own personal evidence is not sufficient to justify inclusion in the article but, nevertheless, it is sufficient for me to believe the claims are credible. I do know for a fact she and Fromm were friends in the late 1980s and I suspect a number of school trustees from the period have made the same observation. I doubt she's ever written "my friend Paul Fromm" in an article but that's beside the point. I don't know where the anon IP got his or her information and until and unless he or she (or someone) provides a source I agree it shouldn't be included but my point is that your "doubt" she had ever had those views does not convince me that the info is incorrect. Homey 19:16, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough, for now. I guess we both have our postions on this, and I appreciate your integrity and honesty. I'm guessing that you are referring to how you saw Fromm talking with McLeod once. I'm not so sure that constitutes two people being friends. Anyways, I am going to go do Roman history articles now, and leave this one alone, my main issues having been dealt with in this and the related articles. Hobbes000 19:36, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, it's a bit more than "Fromm talking with McLeod once." Anyway, you sound like you know her personally, why don't you ask her a) if she knows Fromm and b) why she was fired from the Toronto Sun?Homey 20:05, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I know someone who works for her, and I've met her a few times since she speaks at universities and schools around Toronto every so often. So, I have a superficial idea of what she's like. And the reason I doubt her being a racist or neo-nazi or association with a neo-nazi, anti-Semite and bigot like Paul Fromm is because the guy is Jewish. And the guy who came before him was Japanese. So the allegations comes to me as a surprise. Anything's possible, but given that the articles I find on google refer to Ernst Zundel as a nutbar, and denounce his ideas, well I would think that count as evidence against her being a neo-nazi.

Hobbes000 21:13, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree, there's no particular evidence that she is anti-Semitic, however, she certainly was not anti-apartheid in the 1980s when South Africa was Fromm's big issue (along with immigration and foreign aid). Homey 21:33, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I'll look into that. I'm too young to remember apartheid, but my dad told me that a lot of the opposition to the anti-apartheid movement in the 1980s was due to the movement's association with communists and socialists, rather than actual support for apartheid (which is morally and rationally indefensible), since it took place in a time of severe cold war tension. That could go a long way towards explaining it, since everyone would have been worried that if the ANC took over in South Africa, the communists would come in from Zimbabwe and other African countries and the West would lose their toehold in Africa against the communists.

You lived through it, so you would know better than I since I was an infant at the time. But that might explain it. Judi is still very much anticommunist, and articles support that, so that might go a long way towards explaining that.

On actual related stuff to Paul Fromm, I've been told that the groups he leads now are essentially defunct. You have any info on that?

Hobbes000 14:38, 25 August 2005 (UTC) (keep forgetting to log in, sorry ;) )

I'm too young to remember apartheid, but my dad told me that a lot of the opposition to the anti-apartheid movement in the 1980s was due to the movement's association with communists and socialists, rather than actual support for apartheid

Yes, the same excuses were used in the 1930s by those who favoured appeasing Hiter- he was such a good anti-Communist after all.

Anyway, does McLeod deny having ever been a member of C-FAR?Homey 01:50, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I submit that the facts and neutrality of this article on Paul Fromm should be disputed. The article was largely edited by [speculation on name removed] who is known to be personally antagonistic towards anyone on the opposite end of the political spectrum. 65.244.158.62 16:45, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

  • The authorship of the article is not sufficient proof of inaccuracy or POV. CJCurrie 19:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Every editor has a POV, but that does not mean that no article is NPOV. What specific problems are there with this article? -Willmcw 21:33, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Isn't "Neo-Nazi" an incorrect title.

I accidently added this into the wrong section, so I'm reposting it here.

Isn't "neo-nazi" an incorrect nomenclature to define Fromm?

Doesn't that breach the neutrality of the article, and border on libelous? I've noticed other wiki biographies of racists or "racialists", have a more fair and balanced approach. For example, David Duke's wiki page lists what his self styled title is (white nationalist), and what opposition or critics label him(white supremacist). Paul Fromm's article has neither side, it merely states an incorrect title / nomenclature as matter of fact, even though Fromm himself, and mainstream media have never labeled Fromm a Neo-Nazi, they've just stated he has ties with them.

The neutrality also seems to be compromised with the term "leader". If he is a neo-nazi leader, then there should be sources of people describing him as a leader who promotes the resurgence of a German Third Reich type government.

It is a fact he has represented white nationalists and neo-nazi type people, but acting as an interested party for alleged neo-nazis in tribunal hearings do not necessarily mean he is neo-nazi himself. Non-White Lawyers for the ACLU have represented the KKK in court, it doesn't mean they agree with the entire position of the KKK, all it means is they believe the party they represent deserve legal counsel as a right, and that preserving freedom of speech is important.

The "Neo-Nazi" label also has "fascist" or even violent overtones. Reading the sources on the biography show that Fromm's actions have not shown a provlicity for violence or a resurgence of fasicm. "Fascists" are usually against free speech, advocate restriction of rights of citizens, and are against the proliferation of mediums such as the internet. Paul Fromm's actions have not shown fascist tendencies, but quite the opposite, his organistions clearly have acted with preserving civil rights such as free expression, he is his self described "civil libertarian" (albeit with racial undertones), and therefore "civil libertarian" should be a title / nomenclature at least mentioned in the biography. Kleinback 10:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC) Kleinback 10:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I see there was a Stormfront posting about this just today. [2] I also see an article from last week in the Globe and Mail titled, "Ex-teacher loses licence over neo-Nazi ties" while the Toronto Sun says he's been "described as a "senior player" in the neo-Nazi movement in Canada".[3] I don't think that calling him a "civil libertarian" would be objective or neutral. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Will, what neo-nazi group does Fromm lead? Is he member of the National Socialist Party of Canada? Are there any speeches by him where he introduces himself as a neo-nazi? Does he have swastika tattooed on his forehead? Are there any speeches where he promotes a 4th Reich? If not, than the title "neo-nazi" should not be thrown around as matter of fact, but as a point of view of his critics, such as Farber.

I found the quote, it reads: "senior player on the neo-Nazi playing field in Canada"

Bernie Farber is not presenting a neutral POV, therefore I believe the biography still violates the neutrality parameters surrounding wikipedia biographies. Shouldn't the "neo-nazi" title be representative of Fromm's words or actions? If Fromm is a neo-nazi, there should be a quote of him espousing genocide of communists, poles and jews right right?

What would be more neutral, would be to list Fromm's self styled title, and then to list what critics such as Bernie Farber describe him.

P.S: An even better question is, what defines a person as a "neo-nazi". The reason I ask is because, if Fromm's actions and words are what define a neo-nazi, I'm suspecting "neo-nazi" will be added to a lot more biographies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kleinback (talk • contribs) 21:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing to debate here. Fromm is openly praises the Nationalist-Socialist Party of Canada, and has provided legal support for its leader. He is also heavily connected with various Klan factions in the U.S. For the plethora of examples, these being just two, his politics fit the category of "neo"-Nazi perfectly. Frank Pais (talk) 15:38, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Supervideogamekid

Can you please explain yourself why you keep reverting Fromm's wiki by stating he's a neo-nazi leader?

I see you always try to write the most uplifting thing to say about people involved in Communist groups, but try to use words such as "neo-nazi leader" for people like Fromm, who has a history of being very anti-communist. Are all anti-communists neo-nazis to you?

Fromm doesn't call himself a neo-nazi, and he has never been a member of a neo-nazi group according to my research. Wikipedia biographies are supposed to be neutral remember, so please tell me what neo nazi group/party Fromm is the leader of. Are there neo-nazi conventions where they vote for a leader like they do for the communist party of Canada, or the Conservative party of Canada?

Is he a member or leader of the Nationalist-Socialist Party of Canada? Was he a member of the American Neo-nazi party or the Canadian neo-nazi party?

Example: If you're going to state matter of a fact somebody is a "democrat", wouldn't that person have to be a member of a the democratic party, or at least have stated they are a democrat on record? Would you write a wiki article about Hillary Clinton stating she's a republican leader? Kleinback (talk) 20:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Fromm is not a neo-nazi. He is a conservative. He runs a free speech group(CAFE) and an immigration restrictionist group. He has neve never called for the extermination of Jews or anything of the like. I am removing neo-nazi from the beginning parapgraph. Someone calling him a neo-nazi from a newspaper doesn't make it true. Please use logic and reason instead of emotional hatred. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RG415WBFA (talk • contribs) 17:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing to debate here. Fromm is openly praises the Nationalist-Socialist Party of Canada, and has provided legal support for its leader. He is also heavily connected with various Klan factions in the U.S. For the plethora of examples, these being just two, his politics fit the category of "neo"-Nazi perfectly. Frank Pais (talk) 15:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Listen to Fromm's "radio show" on April 24th (Hitler's Birthday) and you'll know he's a Nazi.