Talk:Paul Bragg/Archive 1
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[edit] 2006
This article makes claims which are completely unverified. Citations are needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.218.159 (talk • contribs) 15:09, September 15, 2006
I have found that the majority of the statements on this page come from the official Bragg's website, specifically the biography page on Paul Bragg. Perhaps the site could be contacted to request verifiable data. --Caen 15:53, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, this article needs some serious cleaning up. Don't expect me to volunteer, though... 1 November 2006
Paul Bragg was 95 when he died. I have contacted bragg.com about this, and they gave me the following reply:
"Dear Mr. Ward, Thank you for your interest in Paul Bragg. You are correct, he died at age 95 due to complications from a body surfing accident in 1976. I hope this will clear up any confusion in your research.
Wishing you Health, Peace and Happiness Bragg Customer Service http://www.bragg.com"
Patricia has kept her age a secret; therefore her age could only be estimated very approximately. Were Paul Bragg (her father) alive today, he would be 126 this year. Assuming that Patricia would very likely have been born when Paul was between 20 and 40 years of age, this would put her age between 86 and 106. In my opinion she is most likely in her mid nineties. Malachi456 05:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bragg was NOT the first, in many things
Sorry, but Ellen White and John Harvey Kellogg along with the Seventh-day Adventist church predated Paul Bragg. Kellogg was certainly known for marketing health foods through the mail as a way for his guests to bring the Sans experience home with them. Seventh-day Adventist's are known for operationg health food stores and restaurants. -- John Gohde 04:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bragg WAS the first, in many things
He was not the first to eat organic foods either, so what??!! Paul Bragg is synonomous with health food, health food stores, fasting, robust health and certainly bringing awareness to the world of the importance of diet and exercise. A man, any man surfing at 81-95 is unthinkable in this culture and in incredible health. From what I can tell the statements are truthful and accurate in the context given. Opening and operating the first health food store has nothing to do with mail-order, not seventh day adventists, not Kelloggs sanitarium, etc. Confusion and diffussion do not alter truth. I've read all health food literature and never had anyone claim but Bragg that they owned and operated the first health food store in America. Kellogg did not own and operate a health food store. As a matter of fact Bragg's legacy is not tainted as is Kelloggs, nor weighed down by religious zealotism.
One of Kellogg's(a seventh day adventist) "health" contributions regarding masturbation -- see his own biography on this site. "In females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid to the clitoris an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement."
So how old was Paul Bragg when he passed away? How old is his daughter, Patricia? I really think age is a critical piece of information if you are touting longer life/better health claims. Also shouldn't Patricia Bragg have an entry too? She's now running the company and has published many books. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.45.19.162 (talk • contribs) 12:26, January 4, 2007
[edit] Contrary to belief...
Some believe Paul Chappius Bragg was NOT born in "Virginia" in "1881", although his organisation asserts this to be true, but believe he was born in Batesville, Indiana on Feb. 6, 1895 to Robert Elton Bragg & Caroline "Carrie" (Maiden Name: Chappius)Bragg, & had one older brother, James Elton Bragg (born in Indinapolis, Ind. in 1893) & a younger brother, John H. Bragg, born in Washington, D.C. in 1899.
And, contrary to his "Apple Cider Vinegar; Miracle Health System" book (pages 13, 14 & 15), he was NOT "raised on a large farm" nor is there any indication his father was ever "a splendid farmer":
"I was raised on a large farm. On that farm we grew many apples. Each year my father made Natural ACV and stored it in wooden barrels...My father was a splendid farmer and many times I would watch him add ACV to the feed of ailing animals (cattle, horses, sheep, dogs, cats, etc). and it acted like magic."
RATHER, the Bragg family moved to D.C. when Paul would have been around age 3, where they lived in apartment houses and his father worked as a "compositor" (typesetter) for the "GPO" (Government Printing Office) at least through 1920. You can find the Bragg family in D.C. by searching the on-line Federal Census Records for 1900, 1910 & 1920. In the 1900 one, Paul's age was given as "5"; in 1910, "15", & place of birth as "Indiana" in both.
Sparky37Sparky37 22:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC) Sparky37 22:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] By the way....
although the current Wiki page on Messr.Bragg claims that the Paul Bragg (born Feb. 6,1895) of Palm Springs, CA on the Soc. Sec. Death Index & Paul Bragg, "the nutritionist" are different people, that is in error.
Per the latter's Florida Death Certificate (yes, he died there at South Shore Hospital in Miami Beach on 12/7/76), his SS # shown at Item 12 on his death certificate is 554-42-5580; & the Palm Springs' Paul Bragg's SS#, if you check, is exactly that same SS #.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sparky37 (talk • contribs) 23:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC). Sparky37Sparky37 23:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Malachi: According...
to "Public Records", Patricia Bragg's birth year was 1936, making her 71 this year.
(Sparky37)
[edit] Hmmm...
I see the most recent poster on the Wiki PB site clearly NEEDS to believe. But I will admit, dying at "age 96" in an "unfortunate swimming accident" does make for a better Paul Bragg "story".
My personal take on Paul Bragg, after doing his genealogy dating back to his paternal great-grandfather (who, BTW, was NOT the famous Confederate General Braxton Bragg that Paul Bragg claimed in an interview in The Honolulu Star Bulletin & Advertiser of 8/24/1969 with William Helton, Advertiser writer, to wit:
"Bragg was born in Virginia in 1881 and says his great-grandfather was Confederate Gen. Braxton Bragg"---
yet ANOTHER Paul Bragg fabrication)-- is that he was likely very charming & likeable, but also somewhat of a compulsive liar.
Unfortunately, he didn't foresee the day when one could go into almost any public library, at least in the U.S., & with a few keyboard clicks, bring up ancient documents belying his claims.
I'll go further & say I believe that Paul Bragg's most persistent claim. that of almost dying, but being eventually cured of a serious case of Tuberculosis at age 16 by good food & sunlight & fresh air & exercise (not to mention a claimed two-year stay at Dr. Rollier's Switzerland TB clinic) was another fabrication of his. His "numbers" just don't add up here, knowing what I know about him during this same time period.
BTW, I have to wonder, even among "Believers", why has nobody come up with THE ADDRESS of that FIRST HEALTH FOOD STORE IN THE U.S. that Paul Bragg's Group claims, over & over again, he opened?? I find that most suspicious.
(sparky37) Sparky37 14:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Gee, what's a girl to do?
I keep putting the correct bio info on Paul c. Bragg on his Wiki page & someone keeps removing it. At least this person is now using Paul Bragg's correct date & place of death, which he obviously didn't know before I told him. He still apparently doesn't know Paul Bragg's (alleged) 1881 birth date/place, which shows- to-go how little he does know.
I even emailed The Bragg Group over a week ago (at same email address "Mr. Ward" graciously gave), offering to exchange my official documentation on Paul C, Bragg's background for theirs, & they have NOT responded. Something as basic as a copy of that 1881 Virginia birth certificate should do the trick. And they didn't even wish me "health & happiness" as they did "Mr. Ward". I guess they weren't expecting anyone to uncover the truth about Paul Bragg. Maybe they're mad at me?
Sparky37Sparky37 17:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sparky37 (talk • contribs) 16:59, 19 March 2007 (UTC).
Interesting problem here. Patricia Bragg would be under no illusion as to when her father was born. Perhaps she and her cohorts are continuing to proliferate lies about her father. Let us know if you get a response from the Bragg website about your query. Malachi456 10:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Oh, come now,
Malachi, do you really think that Bragg, et al would ever admit that Paul Bragg wasn't age 95 when he died? They have a lot invested in Paul Bragg's (alleged) longevity. At least lately, they (occasionally)say he died from "complications" from a surfing/swimming accident, whereas before, the "story" was that he died "IN" a surfing/swimming accident in Hawaii.
As to those "complications", according to the news story in the "Honolulu Advertiser" at his death in December of 1976, he was pulled unconcious from the water at Fort DeRussey. Honolulu, Hawaii in July of 1976 (4 months prior to his actual death), & a nurse on the scene managed to revive him.
Exactly WHY he went unconcious in the water on that July day in 1976 is unknown. He could have been "surfing", he could have been "swimming", he could have been doing nothing more than "wading" & been knocked over by a big wave. He could have first suffered a heart attack while in the water, that caused his "accident". All kinds of possibilities,not excluding the possibility that the "near-drowning incident" never happened in the first place.
Then, of course, he subsequently DID die in the hospital in Miami Beach, FL of a heart attack on 12/7/76 while in that city on a speaking engagement.
Over the subsequent 30 years, the stories/rumors merged & escalated, as it tended to do with almost anything concerning Paul Bragg, & the world ended up with a much more "dramatic" story of his rather mundane ultimate demise than was the truth.
Sparky37Sparky37 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sparky37 (talk • contribs) 16:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC).
[edit] And yet some more...
documentation that belies Paul Bragg's alleged age at death are the six ship/airplane passenger manifests for him that were filed with the Dept. of Commerce in the 1930ties-1940ties & are now a matter of public record.
Just to give an idea:
1) Paul Bragg (age 38), Departure: NY, NY; Arrival: Los Angeles, CA 5/28/1933. Date of Birth: 2/6/1895; Place of Birth: Batesville, IND. Ship: "Santa Rosa".
2) Paul C. Bragg (36), Departure: Honolulu, HI; Arrival: Wilmington, CA, Jan. 22, 1932; Date of Birth: 2/6/1895; Place of Birth: Batesville, IND. Ship: "City of Los Angeles".
And there's 4 similiar entries for him, only with other traveling info., up through 1949.
Now how would we know that "Passenger, Paul C. Bragg" is the same person as "Health Guru, Paul C. Bragg", who claimed to have been born in the State of Virginia in 1881?
Easy. One other question asked of departing passengers back then was their U.S. address. "Passenger Paul C. Bragg" sometimes gave 4230 National Ave., Burbank, CA & sometimes 224 W. Front Street, Burbank, CA as his address.
Cross-referencing those addresses with the Burbank City Directories on file in the City of Burbank Public Library show that between the years 1937 through 1954, 4230 National Ave. was Paul Bragg's Burbank residence, while 224 W. Front Street was the business address of "Bragg Live Foods", which is still the name of the corporate entity now run by his successor(s).
Sparky37Sparky37 20:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Sparky, Sparky, Sparky
On the contrary, you're the one the "NEEDS TO BELIEVE" your own vitriol that is.
I find nothing you have said any more believable than what has been stated regarding Bragg and his health. Just how good do you think records are back then when government has many databases with varying pieces of information on everyone? Which is correct? Just this year, the IRS claimed I couldn't claim my wife, who wasn't my wife( according to them) because she was listed as having 3 different names associated with one SSN(maiden, marriage 1 and marriage 2). Hours on the phone with IRS and she still has to fill out reams of paperwork to "fix" it. Records and statistics are a funny thing, they can be doctored either way.
You keep coming up with some silly piece of so-called “factual” information. For example, the “fact” that disembarking passengers were required to give out addresses. Are we talking a tug boat here? You say you cross referenced all this information, who actually stored it electronically so you could easily look it up? A case in point, the Patent Trademark Office would have far more resources that any small town agency to convert old records to electronic. Guess what, they didn’t. In fact one of the most famous patent holders on record Nicholas Telsa has many that are just scanned drawings and documents, but nothing you can actually look up. To find out that level of information you’d probably have to go to the PTO and spend weeks research documents. So how is it the PTO doesn’t have that level of detail but some city level government does for records dating back that far? How come you have found it so easily and how come you’re so gullible to automatically accept it. Really I think your detective powers have gone to your head reading too many Sherlock novels or something. This is just too funny, use your common sense man! Most of the dated legacy information has not and never will go electronic. I work in the industry and database’s containing information in the 90’s can’t make the necessary conversion sometimes because the new system can’t really handle the way it’s structured in the old. So it actually never makes the transition because of budget issues. So you expect an intelligent person to believe that you can just look up 100 year old, verifiable records?! You’re the one stretching the truth.
Fact is Bragg did help thousands, did die from complications surfing, spent most of his later years in Hawaii, did start the countries health movement, did lecture all over the world, was known for fasting, was known for providing health counsel to the rich and famous, and for damn sure was in robust health as pictures from his youth and onward attest, taught and inspired Jack LaLanne(his claim) another well known health guy. So I suppose when Jack dies you'll be ready to discount his life too?
In order to “disprove” the legacy of Bragg, you’ll probably have to have Dateline handle it. They have the resources to tackle such a project which would probably be months of research and probably 500K+. You can’t expect to prove anything phishing the net, which is notorious for inaccuracies.
[edit] Can't Handle The Truth, Huh?
I really don't care about your wife's problems. The subject is Paul Bragg.
As far as the data on Paul Bragg being "transferred electronically", I have no idea what you mean. All my genealogical info on Paul Bragg is "actual", not "transferred".
The U. S. Census Records on him & his family from 1860 to 1930 are the "actual" pages, NOT "transferred" records. Fortunately, each & every census taker from those years had good to excellent handwriting, so it's quite easy to follow & even the very,very old copies have held up amazingly well.
Paul Bragg's 1917 Draft Registration Card is the "actual" card, NOT "transferred" info. (I will say that Paul Bragg had a very nice "signature" back then).
The Department of Commerce ship/airplane manifests for Paul Bragg from 1931 to 1949 (Transcontinental & Western Airlines Flight No. 993-24 from Portugal to NY City 9/24/49) are all "actual" copies and NOT "transferred" info.
And those old City Directories for Burbank, CA are all sitting in their public library waiting for your perusal (no "electronic storage" involved; just old-fashioned books)...I'm sure the Southern California Genealogical Society who checked them out for me (thanks guys!) dusted them off & put them back in the correct place.
P.S. And no, the ships weren't "tugboats" (how quaint of you). They were both ocean liners (think "Titantic"), The "S.S. Santa Rosa" owned by the W.R. Grace Co. out of NYCity & the "S.S. City of Los Angeles" owned first by The Los Angeles Steamship Co. (LASSCO) & then by The Matson Lines, running between Hawaii & California. And both long since scrapped. Does that answer your question?
(Sparky37)
[edit] You, You, You...
Sorry I don't know your name...
Will you please provide the evidence that Bragg died from "complications of a surfing accident". You made the claim; I can't verify it.
[edit] BTW, for an Overview...
of doing a genealogy search on anybody from Paul Bragg to your own great great grandparents, I suggest you read Wikipedia's own "Genealogy" page.
One direct quote from that page regarding past U.S. Censuses:
"With the advent of computers, & more recently the internet, expanded indexes, including all family members, are beginning to appear. These are accompanied with hypertext links that take the researcher DIRECTLY TO AN IMAGE OF THE ORIGINAL CENSUS PAGE [cap. emphasis all mine], without having to travel to a regional library and scroll through endless rolls of microfilm."
These census records all currently exist for access by the general public for the decades starting with either 1780 or 1790 (forget which) right up through 1930 for the U.S.
And not only are those U.S. Censuses accessible, but also a few other countries such as Canada, the United Kingdom, etc. have their past Censuses on-line also.
So, yes, 100-year old Plus documents ARE available on-line for viewing by "intelligent" people.
(Sparky37)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.54.97.189 (talk) 01:33, 22 April 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Sparky,Sparky,Sparky
First, I never asked you to care about any problems, that's again your spin talent.
Second, all data viewable on-line has to be "transferred electronically" or digitized for you to view.
Third, it's still your word against everyone elses. Where are the hard-copy documents? Whose word but yours is there? Where's the published verifiable evidence that those so inclined can de-bunk if they so choose? You just state you look here and there, but there's no proof. And even if you found a signature, prove it's one and the same Bragg. What the hell does "nice handwriting" mean?
<<So, yes, 100-year old Plus documents ARE available on-line for viewing by "intelligent" people.>> This is meaningless drivel. If you're stating that by virtue of being digitized that validates their authenticity then I would definitely question your so-called "intelligence".
As for your sleuthing aka pseudo research abilities, you suffer from the same vision problems as all those who you deem fools for not believing "your" way. That said, prove one iota of what you claim is true.
Publish the book to verify Bragg is not what he claims or that he lived a lie. Then once published all those who believe the other way will have a hard-copy to do as they see fit.
Do you think 95 is that old? I know active walking talking people in their 90's. So it's not a stretch to believe he died in his 90's, nor anyone for that matter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne
Jack LaLanne is 92-93, he "claims" he heard Bragg at 15, that's around 1929. So Jack's still alive, why don't you ask him how old Bragg was when he gave the lecture? So, Jack who was a follower of Bragg's is robust in his 90's then I guess it can't possibly be true that Bragg was robust in his 90's. Try using some of that intelligence you claim to have!
Bottom line, none of what you claim does not meet a reasonable test because only you have done this research. Further Bragg was extremely well-known, why wasn't all this done before if he was such a liar? You're a little late to the party Sparky, as usual! You've got to be the QuackWatch guy. LOL!
[edit] Sparky's Truth -- Not!
The "tugboat" wasn't a "quaint" comment(whatever that means). Since they were obviously large ocean liners of the day, how does one expect to believe that all this data was accurately tracked and cataloged for thousands of disembarking passengers manually, day in and week in and out? This seemed to be a important point in your analysis. You first have to prove the accuracy of this information. These weren't immigration boats but pleasure craft, thus would not have the large policing force required to enforce these procedures.
The census by and large is a general body of information, not accurate to the degree required of this type of investigation. People in general are averse to giving the government too much information and that hasn't changed in thousands of years. Do you think everyone accurately claims the right numbers on their tax returns?!
Digitizing a hand-written document to be viewed by a graphical device does not authenticate it. So any document you produce has to be verified as to the source and then pass a reasonableness test. Further, you have to prove it was the Bragg that we are talking about, not the one the fits conveniently into your hypothesis.
Further electronic storage in and of itself has exacerbated the authentication and accuracy problem not improved it.
I could go on, but unlike you I have no time to waste endlessly worrying about trivia.
If you can produce an accurate authenticated birth certificate then we can discuss this further. Since you seem to have no problem locating accurate records(your claim), then you should have no problem locating the most common of all indicators of life, the simple birth certificate.
So there it is Sparky, you have proved nothing one way or the other. You have 2 choices, one take all your circumstantial evidence and publish it for the masses and risk ridicule and shame because you'd have to use your real name and back it all up and/or two produce a real birth certificate that can be authenticated.
You have laid out a bunch of circumstances, you need hard evidence, a key document like an authenticated birth certificate. Let us know when you have it.
[edit] How about You producing even one...
shred of evidence disputing my findings? That's what "intelligent" people do in a debate. Shouldn't be too hard with your brain power. Problem is you can't & can do little more than rant & rave. That's your real problem. And I'm sorry, but third hand "stories" about "chicken throwing" don't count. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.54.97.151 (talk) 23:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC).
I have some genealogical background and have been able to verify much of what Sparky says on-line. I am convinced that he was born in 1895. I can find no record of a Paul Bragg b. 1881 in VA in the 1900-1930 Federal Census.
I have also checked some online newspaper indexes and have found several clippings which support the 1895 year of birth and provides additional information about his remarkable life.
The Washington Post 6/17/1913 Paul C Bragg, aged 18 heroically saves man from drowning at Colonial Beach, VA.
The Washington Post 8/10/1913 Paul Bragg of Company D wins wrestling match, mentions Colonial Beach heroism
The Indianapolis Star 9/18/1913 wrestler to be physical instructor at St Charles Military School, MO aged 18 Mentions Colonial Beach heroism. father R E Bragg, brother Elton
The Washington Post 1/10/1915 Paul C Bragg, a newcomer at business who hails from Northwestern Military and Naval Academy of Highland Park, Ill. taking business instruction. NOTE!! This is a BAD CITATION. No such article exists. Would the person who put it here please correct it so other people do not waste a lot of time looking for it. Thank you.
The Washington Post 11/22/1915 Marriage to Neva Parnin at 6 o'clock Monday, Chapel of St Barnabus, New York City. Couple from Washington, DC. Parents Mr. And Mrs. R. E. Bragg of Washington. Mentions Colonial Beach heroism formerly physical director Northwestern Military Academy Highland Ill and Business High School.
The News, Frederick 11/12/1919 Elected Physical Director of Frederick, MD YMCA
The News, Frederick 11/18/1919 History of his numerous previous positions in fitness
The Frederick Post 1/9/1920 Paul Bragg named Physical Director, YMCA
The Frederick Post 3/23/1920 visiting brother John H Bragg in Washington
The News, Frederick 6/8/1920 Resignation from YMCA due to financial problems at YMCA
The Frederick Post 7/9/1920 Physical Director Resigns YMCA position together with someone else vague reasons
Dallas Morning News 4/12/1929 Paul C Bragg, aged 49 [note new age] gives lectures
Oakland Tribune 10/9/1930 Advertisement 7 free lectures by Paul Bragg in Oakland at the Women's City Club Theater Oct 10-17. Could be where and when Jack LaLanne heard him? Jack LaLanne born 9/26/1914 according to California Birth Index, so would have been 16 years old, He lived in nearby Berkeley according to 1930 Census
The Frederick Post 4/26/1935 Paul Bragg arrested violating District of Columbia Healing Arts act. Article says got Frederick YMCA job 1919 then to South Carolina, then NY, CA, South Seas
The Frederick Post 5/17/1935 '"Professor" Paul C Bragg, bronzed curly haired and now much chagrined possessor of South Sea health secrets, paid a $100 fine and packed his bags for California after Police Court Judge Ralph Given found him guilty of practicing the healing arts without a license in Washington.'
Hope this helps in resolving the issue
Lifechild 05:22, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Thank you Lifechild...
for posting the clippings. I shall have to go to our local LDS Family History Center (or whatever is its correct name) & read some of those articles in their entirety.
I see that Paul Bragg told a quite different story of him rescuing a person from drowning in his Apple Cider Vinegar Book:
"At 12, I was sent from my rugged farm life to an expensive military academy as a gift from saving a man from drowning. The food at that institution was where my health was broken."
Then he went on to say this caused his Tuberculosis, which he claimed was "100% cured" by a two year stay at Dr. Rollier's TB clinic in Switzerland.
So, from the clippings, this "rescue" actually happened when he was 18 years old & not 12, & he was later on the "staff" of a military school, not a "student" so why would he need a benefactor's gift, (presumably tuition , etc.), as an employee? Not to mention that he never grew up on a "farm" to leave from.
Can't figure out how he worked in that 2-year Switzerland stay at age 16 with all the other things going on his life at the time...but then I don't believe his TB story anyway.
Was somewhat surprised to see that he was already padding his age, at least for public consumption, by 1930 though!
BTW, Paul Bragg claimed in an extensive photo-op interview with Dave Koga, Writer with the Honolulu Star Bulletin, 5/6/1975, "Nonagenarian Has Lots To 'Bragg' About", to have been a veteran of "all the major battles of WWI". I personally doubt this as on his June 1917 draft registration card, he specifically asked for an exemption from service in that war on the grounds of having a "dependent wife", which was one of four or five exemptions allowed for.
In the same interview, he also claimed to have been a member of two U.S. Olympic wrestling teams. I see from the news clippings that he was an amateur wrestler...but I don't see any evidence that he ever reached the pinnacle of the Olympics as he claimed.
Any news clippings on these from your source? My news clippings on PB are xerox copies supplied by the Hawaii State Library.
Sparky37 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.54.97.187 (talk) 02:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC).
[edit] More information, mainly from Newspaper Articles
Here are a few more abstract of newspaper articles. I place an asterisk where I have added information to previously cited articles.
Washington Times 4/8/1910 Paul Bragg, aged 15, accompanies a butler who boarded with Bragg Family on Quincy Place to Baltimore after jewell heist. Thief had befriended Paul and wanted someone to run errands and fetch newspapers!
- The Washington Post 6/17/1913 Paul C Bragg, aged 18 saves man from drowning a Colonial Beach. Swam 300 yds and rescued 200 # man.
- The Indianapolis Star 9/18/1913 Has a $1,000 challege for anyone to beat him in wrestling in his ligthtweight weight class. Received Gold medal for bravery Washington Times. Also rescued man from Shenandoah River. Received letter from President Wilson, nominated for Carnegie Award. Taught wrestling to President Roosevelt and taught Roosevelt's sons to box.
The Frederick Post 3/23/1920 Visits brother John H Bragg, who is a patient in a hospital for shell-shocked soldiers
Oakland Tribune 1/26/1933 Paul C. Bragg, Lecturer of Los Angeles leaves from San Francisco on the Panama-Pacific liner Virginia
New York Passenger Lists 2/13/1933 [Not a newspaper clipping but ship manifest, ties in well with above] Ship Virginia arrives from Pacific Coast carrying Paul Bragg b. Batesville, Ind Feb 1895
Oakland Tribune 1/17/1934 A series of lectures in Oakland. Says recently returned from second trip to South Seas where he lived among the Polynesians
Valley News, Van Nuys, CA 3/31/1974 50th High School Reunion announcement for Redondo Union High School. Says Paul C. Bragg was a physical education instructor there, taught in 1924
Oakland Tribune 4/8/1976 Interview with Bragg. On two olympic wrestling teams. At 16 told 4 months to live and had TB. Five children [Three by Neva, Patricia and ?]
From these articles, Paul Bragg seems to have been a very robust young man
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lifechild (talk • contribs) 04:05, 1 May 2007 (UTC).
[edit] At least he was good...
at multi-tasking!
I knew about his brother John H. being a patient in the Veterans Hospital in Cape May, New Jersey in 1920 as the census taker did John's whole hospital ward (maybe 15 or 20 guys) in one swoop for that year.
Very interesting newspaper articles.
[edit] More athletic accomplishments
Dallas Morning News Apr 12, 1929 article mentioned above in which Paul said he was 49 states he won the South Atlantic A.A.U. wrestling championship in 1918 and the Pacific Coast endurance contest for a thirty-mile run in 1926. Lifechild 15:13, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] If he was winning a wrestling...
chanpionship in 1918 in the U.S.,, his story about participating in" all the major battles of WWI" (also 1918) sounds like more Paul Bragg B.S. You can't be both over here & "over there" at the same time.
And to confirm this, in one of the Frederick, Maryland newspaper articles circa 1920 announcing his emloyment as their local Y.M.C.A.'s new athletic director, was this paragraph;
"His first work was as gymnasium instructor at the Military and Naval Academy at Lake Geneva,Wisconsin. Since then he had had charge of physical work in the Y.M.C.A's of Indianapolis, Indiana and at Washington, D.C. and of physical eduction in the public schools of Suffolk County, Long Island, N.Y. and physical work in army camps under the Commission of Training Camp Activities DURING THE WAR." (My emphasis).
So clearly rather than Paul Bragg's later "brag" of being part of the fiercest WWI battles in Europe, he actually spent that war safely state-side as a physical instructor in army camps.
Did this guy ever tell the truth??
Sparky37 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.54.97.152 (talk) 16:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Remarkable
And he won the wrestling championship at age 38 and a forty-mile endurance contest at age 46 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lifechild (talk • contribs) 16:49, 1 May 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Military Service
To be fair, on his June 1917 draft registration card he did serve for 3 years in the National Guard, based in Washington, DC
Lifechild 02:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] More Bragg info
Social security death index notes his birth as Feb 6, 1895, and death in Dec. 1976, residence is Desert Hot Spprings, Ca. 92240. In the early 1970's I bought several "Bragg Books" and the address for the publisher on several is Health Science Box 477, Desert Hot Springs, Ca 92240.
[edit] If these allegations are true
If these allegations are true, they need to be vigorously pursued. I find the allegations very disturbing, and the comments by Bragg's alleged granddaughter appearing and disappearing from this discussion page is very odd. Can documentation be provided one way or another - maybe put someplace else on the Internet? If Bragg was only 81 when he died, and not 95, I will have plenty to say about it on my web site, but it would be nice to have better support, although what Sparky37 and Lifechild have put together has impressed me enough to make this post. Bragg's legacy is more than tainted if the allegations are true, not just about his age, but his tuberculosis and Olympic wrestling stories. If they are all fabrications, how Hollywood they are. I will say one thing, however. The "story" was never that Bragg died in that swimming accident, but that the lung damage sustained in it was what led to his death. The version I read more than twenty-five years ago stated that he blacked out while at that Miami speaking engagement and was administered drugs by the paramedics, and that is what killed Bragg. I look forward to somebody putting together something more definitive, but I have to admit that the burden of proof seems to be more on Patricia Bragg right now than anybody else.
I will say this about what I have seen since Bragg died...
From the very beginning of my interest in Bragg’s work, he seemed very well preserved, perhaps too well preserved. Pictures of him supposedly in his fifties looked a lot like a man in his thirties, and he always looked at least a decade younger than he was, or allegedly was. In 1975, not long before he died, I read a People magazine interview with him. A humorous part of the article was when Bragg was asked at what age sexual activity ended, and Bragg said, “You’ll have to ask somebody else, because I’m only 95.” His “daughter” has carried on his work, and because she lived near Ventura, my family and friends have met her, so I have encountered Bragg-related literature over the years. Many years after Bragg died, I saw that People article reproduced by Bragg’s “daughter,” and it had been altered. Instead of Bragg saying, “I’m only 95,” he said, “I’m ageless.” That alteration takes on a very different meaning, in light of the recent research and allegations. Also, I have not been happy with how other parts of his legacy have been handled. When his “daughter” published editions of Paul’s books after he died, I never saw her acknowledge that Paul was dead, but she implied that he was alive. In addition, I never saw Bragg use the word “Crusade” to describe his work, but that term dominates his “daughter’s” version of Bragg’s work.
User:wadefrazier 02:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] What kind of further...
"proof" would you want?
BTW, the Los Angeles Times covered the Patricia Bragg v. Dr. Robert Elton Bragg (Paul's son with Neva) divorce hearing twice in their newspaper over 50 years ago:
12/21/1955
and
1/17/1956
If you want to read the articles in their entirety, the L.A. Times has an on-line retrieval service of articles from its archives for a fee. And the larger So. Cal. public libraries would have back issues on microfilm.
I have no specific information on their content, but the articles would probably confirm a father/daughter-in-law relationship between Paul & Patricia.
sparky37
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.54.97.189 (talk) 15:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC).
[edit] This kind of proof
Document copies are some of that “what more” that I need. In my work, I provide documentation copies when making certain points.
http://www.ahealedplanet.net/energy1.htm#half
This is the Internet. Unfortunately, I have had to deal with people using fraudulent newspaper “proof” to defame somebody close to me:
http://www.ahealedplanet.net/dennis.htm#dishonest
Even when they have been exposed as dishonest defamers, they keep on acting as if they were not exposed.
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2007/02/353778.shtml#251272
Personal integrity is the world’s scarcest commodity.
So, call me cautious. If Bragg indeed lied about his age and other germane aspects of his life, especially vis-à-vis his life’s work, this is going to be a bit of a scandal in the alternative health community. I really do not feel like digging up document copies and posting them to the Internet, but if nobody else has the gumption to do so, maybe I will have to do it myself. Digging up that information is good work, but it is not enough to convince somebody seeing the information on the Internet. Maybe you do not care to convince people, but only want to point them in the direction they can take to prove it for themselves. However, my experience has told me that less than one-in-a-thousand who will do that.
User:wadefrazier 02:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] I think I've done adequate...
"legwork".
If you're truly interested in authenticating & publishing any of this on your website, I think you should be as able as me to take it from here. Or just drop it. Your choice. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.54.97.186 (talk) 14:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Yes, your legwork is a good start
User:wadefrazier 02:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] If you want copies of...
any papers/documents re PB, I'll be happy to furnish what I have. OTOH, if you want to start fresh, ok too...that's always challenging.
BTW, when I read your understanding of the circumstnces of P. Bragg's death in Miami, were you saying that this pre-death incident happened WHILE he was speaking or at least in attendance at the speaking engagement itself? This is not clear to me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.54.97.152 (talk) 16:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Thank you for contacting me
Yes, I would take what you have.
On Bragg's death, he moved from So. Cal. to Hawaii not long before he died (a year or so). I had a friend who attended one of his classes there. The drowning incident happened there. Bragg kept up his speaking tours, but had blackouts from the lung damage he sustained in the accident. From what I read all those years ago, Patricia warned those hosting him that if he blacked out, he should not receive standard medical treatment, as he had not had a drug in his body for sixty years. When he blacked out in Miami, the paramedics were called in, gave him the usual drugs, and he died pretty quickly. At least that is the story that was being told in the late 1970s. I read that from Bragg literature, as I recall (a one-page flyer that was inserted in some Bragg material). I believe the drowning accident happened less than a year before he died. If the allegations about his age and other events are true, it is hard to know what to trust from such reporting. Puncturing the myths around his life is not going to be any fun for me, but somebody needs to do it.
User:wadefrazier 9 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Patricia Bragg's Patent
The Bragg Live Foods website states that Patricia was "...the youngest woman ever to be granted a U.S. Patent."
I don't know if she was the youngest, but I did find patent 2,811,156 online. The patent was for a "Douche or Enema Device" and was patented by Patricia Pendleton Bragg of Burbank, CA in 1957.
Lifechild 03:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Will The First Health Food Store In America....
Please Stand Up?
I see in one of Paul Bragg's last newspaper interviews (Oakland, CA Tribune, 4/8/1976), he claimed he opened America's First Health Food Store in New York City in 1912.
However, three years earlier, in an Associated Press interview with Ron Staton, "Bragg Could Brag About His Fitness" (Honolulu Star-Bulletin Nov. 29, 1972) is the following paragraph:
"Bragg says he opened the first health food store in the nation in Los Angeles 60 years ago."
Since "60 years ago" in 1972 would be, hmmm, let's see, 1912...
And to think he did all this at age 17!
Sparky37
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.54.97.152 (talk) 12:56, 12 May 2007 (UTC).
[edit] WHO'S RIGHT HERE?
It's all very interesting stuff, both from Sparky (everyone is saying 'he' but I believe it is a 'she'.) Just disappointing that someone can make claims and hide behind anonymity. Also disappointing that someone can add comments disputing Sparky's position without signing his or her name at all! Wouldn't be a bad idea to publish a book about this, with a real name. Does anyone personally know Patricia Bragg? It would be interesting to have someone confront her with this information. I only know that I contacted the Bragg company and they assert he died at age 95. The other option would be to talk with Jack LaLanne about this. He would probably have a good idea, having known Paul Bragg from many years back. Is someone game? With all this conflicting information, I think someone should be willing to sort the fact from the fiction and find out the real story. Malachi456 07:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] CONTACTED JACK LALANNE
I have emailed Jack LaLanne to see if he can give us any more information. I haven't heard back yet, and somehow suspect I might not, as he is unlikely to want to contradict Patricia and the Bragg company, or be drawn into this debate. Will keep you posted if I hear anything though. I do also know that Patricia is at times interviewed by the media etc, and I hope that someone who sees this discussion may be interviewing her in the near future, and is able to 'confront' her with this issue. Malachi456 09:52, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Not sure what contacting...
Jack LaLanne is going to do. He & the Braggs have had what I would characterize as a close relationship for many years. Finding out Paul Bragg to be a liar in so many areas, not just age, also could taint Jack by association I doubt that Jack would want to go there. I wouldn't.
BTW, I think in this discussion, I haven't just made "claims". I've constantly cited sources.
And some things you can figure out for yourself.
One of Paul Bragg's Big Stories was his crippling bout with TB at age 16. Part of that story was that he had only months to live & that his parents sent him to Dr. Auguste Rollier's TB Clinic in Leysin. Switzerland where he recovered in two years. He mentioned this episode of his life in at least two of his books & many interviews. Heck, it even rated a paragraph in his Miami Herald obituary.
Since he claimed to have been born in 1881 & that he was age 95 in the last year of his life ["'I've just celebrated my 95th birthday', he said at his home in the California desert", Oakland (CA) Tribune, 4/8/76], that would mean he had his "terminal" TB diagnosis in 1897 ...when he would have been age 16.
However, if you refer to Leysin, Switzerland's own website telling of their town's history back to 500 A.D., you will notice that while Dr. Rollier did indeed establish a world-famous TB sanitarium there, he didn't even arrive in Leysin until "the winter of 1903", which means his sanitarium couldn't have been set up until at least 1904.
So you tell me exactly how Paul Bragg at 16 in 1897, with only a few months to live, could have fully recuperated at Dr. Rollier's sanitarium which was still at least seven years into the future?
Like I said previously, his "numbers" don't add up.
Sparky37
[edit] Two U. S. Olympic Wrestling Teams....
Paul Bragg was NOT on.
I mentioned previously that in a Honolulu newspaper interview on May 6, 1975, Paul Bragg claimed to have been a wrestler on two Olympic wrestling teams...though he didn't identify the years.
In a subsequent interview with the Oakland Tribune (4/1976), however, he made the mistake of doing so, to wit:
"So successful was his cure, [TB again] Bragg competed in the 1908 and 1912 Olympics in wrestling".
HOWEVER...
A check with "USA Wrestling" in Colorado Springs, found the following:
The 1908 Olympic Wrestling Team, which competed in London that year, all "free-style", consisted of six men:
George N. Mehnert (Gold); George S. Dole (Gold); and John H. Krug, John Craige, Frank, Narganes & Lee J. Talbot, the latter four eliminated in second rounds.
And the 1912 U. S. Olympic Wrestling Team, which competed in Stockholm, Sweden, consisted of only two members that year, both wrestling "Greco-Roman style", namely William J. Lyshon & George W. Retzer, Jr., & both eliminated in their second rounds.
Not a Paul Bragg among them.
Did this guy ever tell the truth?
Sparky37
[edit] Thanks for the help - essay published
Thanks to the people here who performed the original research that has resolved the issue, at least for me. They know who they are. I obtained the documentary evidence, and have published some of it here:
http://www.ahealedplanet.net/bragg.htm
These were initially disturbing and depressing allegations, but are supported by the documentary evidence. The burden of proof now lies with the Bragg Empire. We will see how forthcoming they are.
User:wadefrazier 25 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Patricia not Bragg's daughter?
I looked at the website created by wadefrazier and am quite concerned about the allegation on that site that Patricia is not Bragg's daughter. I believe I read on this site that someone had found documentary evidence that he did have a daughter named Patricia. Do you know, Sparky? Malachi456 06:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] My research...
indicates that Paul Bragg was not one of Patricia Bragg's "birthparents". Rather, they were Harry Clay Pendleton, Sr. (died 3/3/1961 at age 88 in Alameda County, California) & Nettie Coward Deacon Pendleton (died 7/29/1964 at age 64 in Oakland, CA). I believe at that point, the Pendletons had been divorced for decades.
I also believe wadefrazier to be absolutely correct in that Patricia is/was Paul Bragg's former daughter-in-law by her marriage to Robert Elton Bragg, son of Paul & Neva Narnin Bragg, which ended circa 1956 when she was 26.
But, to be fair, let's hear from Patricia herself on this. I'm sure she can clear this all up.
sparky37
[edit] PATRICIA CLEAR THIS UP?
Not if it isn't true. On her website she repeatedly refers to Paul as her 'father'. I would say it would be too big a backdown now to admit he was not her father, which would be admitting she has been lying, and it would not be hard then to believe that she might have been lying about something else.... As you can see, I have become quite skeptical of Bragg claims over the past few months. Malachi456 06:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] This article or section is not written in the formal tone expected of an encyclopedia article.
I totally agree. Furthermore, I do NOT even think that this discussion page is up to the high standards of Wikipedia. The article is supposed to be about Paul Bragg, rather than the Bragg Internet Business or his daughter by birth or adoption.
The article looks like some kind of a neon sign. When are you guys going to present a professionally written article so that ALL those stupid notices can be taken down?
Furthermore, with all the FREE websites that can be created overnight by anyone, when is all this so called proof, of whatever, going to be put out on the web so that the public can examine graphics of these so-called original documents? -- John Gohde 14:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] i believe "wadefrazier"...
did a good job of giving an "image" of certain Paul Bragg documents that are "in the public domain" & cited the ones that are "copyrighted" that people can look up for themselves...just like people that "read books" have to do.
I don't think you'll ever get a website of ALL those "images" in your face. There's them "pesky" copyright laws.
- Anybody can create a web site with Google Pages anonymously. And, it would be up to the copyright holder to make a complaint. And, in the mean time the public would be able to make their assessment. From what I have seen, the graphics have NOT been posted. Are NOT going to be posted. Therefore, it is all so much hot air in my opinion. Furthermore, your Wikipedia posting/writing style is absolutely horrible. Too much caffeine in your diet? -- John Gohde 15:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I do think the Wikipedia page on PB badly needs cleaning up. But I would dearly miss the "chicken-throwing story",,,since in all the newspaper articles I've read on or about Paul Bragg during his lifetime, I've never once actually run across it. Hmmm....
As far as discussing Patricia's "parentage", I think this is a legitimate discussion item. After all, Paul Bragg's Wikipedia page is (or should be) a biography of his life. And from what I see from other Wiki "bio" sites on other famous people, wives, children, etc. are mentioned, sometimes prominently. Encyclopedias are not JUST about the "subject".
- I do not. Put it in the web page on Patricia Bragg. -- John Gohde 15:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
So does she make the "daughter" cut or not for the new & improved (maybe in the next Century) PB Wikipedia page?
Sparky37
[edit] A few tidbits about the...
Early California Years of Paul C. Bragg.
Paul & his young family first likely came to Los Angeles circa 1921 to again work for the Y.M.C.A. ("YMCA Announces New Classes, Teachers", LA Times 9/28/1921). Son, Robert E. Bragg, was born there in March of 1922. (The last position he held "back East" was as the new Athletic Director at the High School in Connellsville, PA starting in the Fall of 1920--- Ref.: The Daily Courier, Connellsville, 8/20/1920).
As mentioned in one of the above newspaper abstracts, he was the physical education teacher at Rodondo Union High School (Southern CA) in 1924.
From 1926 to 1928, he wrote a weekly column (sort of off & on) in The Los Angeles Times, called either "Health Hints" or "NewsLets", in which he gives his address as Health Center of Los Angeles, 1000 W. 7th Street, L.A. and later (1928) as Director, Bragg Health Center, 840 S. Hill Street, L.A. I have no idea how long he continued these business endeavors.
According to Library of Congress records, the first books which show him as "author" were "Truth About Sex" & "Cure Yourself", both published by "Hollywood, California, National Diet & Health Assn." (1929) & "Live Food Cook Book & Menus" (1930), published by "Hollywood,California Live Food Products Co."
As Paul Bragg moved around so often & there are no credible witnesses still around from his early & mid life that I know of, relying on official records & newspaper accounts to piece together his life is about the best we can do.
Feel free to use any of the above to add to his Wikipedia page...or not.
Sparky37
[edit] So What Am I to Make Of This?
May be just the "caffeine" as "John" suggests, but...
In Paul Bragg's "Apple Cider Vinegar, Miracle Health System", is the following:
"....On this farm we grew many apples. I was a great apple eater. In my early youth I enjoyed robust health."
One would have to believe that was true because in the next sentences---to compress--he (allegedly) rescues a drowning victim, is sent to military school at age 12 as a reward, eats the overprocessed,overcooked food served there, then suffers broken health, & thereby gets terminal TB (somehow).
But his youthful "robust health" claim is totally contradicted by his other book, "The Miracle of Fasting", wherein he states the following:
"I was born and reared in Virginia and I was fed a typically greasy, starchy, fatty, sugary diet"
Well O.K.
And then he goes on to say:
"My body was so filled with toxins that I had every known childhood disease: mumps, measles, whooping cough...you name them and I had them!"
No comment...
[edit] When was Paul Bragg born?
The answer to this question is available from many public records, whose accuracy cannot reasonably be disputed:
1. 1900 United States Census, District of Columbia, N. Capitol St. "Paul Bragg. Son. Born Feb. 1895 in Indiana."
2. 1910 United States Census, District of Columbia, Quincy Place. "Paul C. Bragg. Son. Age 15"
3. 1920 United States Census, Frederick Maryland, East 2nd St. Paul. C. Bragg. Head of household. Age 28. Born in Indiana. Occupation: Director, YMCA." His wife is Neva Bragg. They have two daughters: Loraine, age 2, and Neva, age 4 months.
3. Social Security Death Index (online at http:/www.familytreelegends.com/records/ssdi) Paul Bragg. Born 6 Feb 1895. Died Dec. 1976. Age 81.
Paul Bragg's date of birth and age are an important issue. Recall that he was an extremely well known figure in the fields of diet, nutrition, health, and longevity, especially in Hollywood, but also throught the USA and worldwide. In his later years, if he looked much younger than he actually was, then he would be living proof that his methods worked. He was in excellent health throughout his life and he worked hard to stay that way. But he yielded to the temptation to overstate his age, especially in his later years.
[edit] What's going on here?
First, we have several researchers trying to document the facts of Paul Bragg's life, and carefully citing their sources - just what is requested by this site
Second we have a single individual trying to cover up the past. I know that individual, who appears occasionally at the Natural Product Expo in Anaheim, California, to promote her products and say hello to friends. Yes, she is still alive and healthy. If I were her, I would write a biography of her father-in-law, tell the story in a complete and balanced way, try to answer all of the main unanswered questions (exactly what happened in Hawaii? Was that incident related to his death in Florida a few months later? Did Paul ever legally adopt her as his daughter, after she and his son were divorced (Read the Los Angeles times story!!), etc.
Third, in the middle, we have a machine which has never heard of Paul Bragg or Patricia, which knows NOTHING about Paul Bragg, but which is programmed to look at certain actions on each web page and try to determine what is happening. It is a very BLUNT instrument, but it must drawn various conclusions about this site. Even if there are ten documents that clearly and indisputably show Paul Bragg's date of birth, it considers that date too controversial because someone is trying to cover it up. This is a strange way to write an on-line encyclopedia and to try to arrive at a fair and balanced understanding of a complex and very interesting man. BillShurts 14:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] I think you can scratch...
the "adoption" possibility, as California Vital Records continues to show Patricia Bragg's birth certificate as "Patricia Pendleton".
When there is an adoption in this state---whether infant, child, or adult---the Clerk of the Court sends a form to the State Health Dept. in Sacramento with the "new" information, & a replacement birth certificate then goes in Official Records, & the original is expunged.
Since Patricia "Pendleton" still exists as such in the State of California's Vital Records, I don't believe any adoption could have taken place.
