User talk:Patto1ro

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Welcome!

Hello, Patto1ro, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! pschemp | talk 02:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] You and User:Mikebe

You are undoubtedly the same person as User:Mikebe. Since you have voted in AfDs with both accounts, you are violating WP:SOCK. I will kindly ask you to choose one account to edit with. Further use of both accounts may result in me having to take administrative action against you. And we don't want that. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 20:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not the same person as Mikeb. My name is Ronald Pattinson, born 19.10.1956 in Newcastle upon Tyne. Ask Mikeb what his name is. I can guarantee he and I are different people.

I think you are the same person as Gothean. Can you please use one account.Patto1ro 20:39, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I've endured much abuse for my attempts to correct the rubbish on the beer pages, but being accused of being someone else is just too much. It is possible that more that one person disagrees with some of the ill-informed opinion that passes for fact in the wikipedia pages.

Your certainty that he and I are the same person tells me everything about your objectivity and how big a role facts play in forming your opinions.

The wikipedia is a great idea in theory, but its domination by egomaniacs without a basic grounding in the subjects they attempt to describe negates the advantages of wider participation.

I have only contributed on subjects where I have a genuinely deep knowledge. Being shouted down by a less-informed majority has demonstrated to me the inherent weakness of the format. Why should I waste my time and expertise in such an ultimately futile way?

Will I choose one account to edit with? I think I'll choose no account to edit with. Asking around beer-writing professionals, I've been struck by their contempt for the wikipedia. After a few weeks involvement in editing, I have to agree with them: its contents cannot be trusted.

I thought I would try to improve the beer pages. I now see it was a total waste of my time. As was writing this explanation.

[edit] Sigh

An intelligent conscientious user would simply admit his error in judgment and turn to editing the encyclopedia with one account. I'd like a neutral point of view to be presented in beer articles which presents both the European and American views, without discounting either side. But if you want to pretend that you are not Mikebe, so be it. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 23:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Groan

Have you asked Mikebe who he is? No, I didn't think so. You have just assumed him and me are the same person. When you have realise we are two different people an apology would be nice.Patto1ro 20:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Last word on this from me

Personally, I still believe you are the same person. There are enough similarities that make it fairly likely. I do not have any concrete proof, however, and I cannot perform a checkuser, since your actions do not fall into any of the categories authorizing one. I consider the matter at an end. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 21:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It certainly isn't my last word. Throw around accusations, provide no evidence and then try to walk away when you know you are in the wrong. Either admit you were wrong or prove your allegations.Patto1ro 22:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Checkuser

I don't have checkuser rights they are at WP:RFCU. However, in the past there has been a general inclination not to perform checkuser on users by request since if a user is making the request they could likely have avoid linking any IPs (I'm not going to go into any detail here per WP:BEANS. There are other reasons as well. If there is any problematic behavior going on I suggest you see our dispute resolution procedure and if you think that anything constitutes serious violations of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA then to bring it up at the personal attack notice board or at the admin notice board. One finaly point- being called a sockpuppet are about par for the course when dealing with problems and random junk said on the internet is unlikely to alter your "reputation" anyways so it may be best to have a thick skin about it. I hope this helps. JoshuaZ 22:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

As a moral person, accusations of being a liar cut me to the quick. I can put up with being called an idiot, aggressive or overbearing. One thing I do not do is lie. I'll be honest with you: I know who User:Mikebe is. We agree on some things, not on others. If I had been asked whether I knew him or not, I would have answered truthfully. But no-one ever did ask. Can you say that no other contributors are personally acquainted?

As a pretty serious beer writer, I think I DO have a reputation to worry about. I've spent 15 years slowly gaining people's respect. Accusations like this could damage it. My email id is also patto1ro - it doesn't take a genius to work out that the patto1ro on the wikipedia is the same person.

Look at our posts: they aren't written in the same style (I can write much better) and we don't even have the same nationalilty - I'm British and he is Dutch.

If Ozgood needs any more evidence of our duality, let him come to Amsterdam to meet us both in person. There is much Mike and I would like to discuss with him in greater detail.

I seek nothing more than an admission from Osgood that he was wrong about Mike and I being one person with two accounts. Is that so much to ask? If his accusation had been true, do you imagine that I would have made so much fuss?

I can accept my (mostly very accurate and well-researched) contributions being edited or removed. Attacks upon my integrity I cannot.Patto1ro 23:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editing other peoples comments

Regarding this edit, it is inappropriate to attribute statements to other people that they did not write. You created the impression that Mikebe had written that text which is not only not kosher, it's also bad form. If it was a joke, it's still inappropriate because you're essentially roping another user into your joke without their permission. Please don't do it again. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 18:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, he was editing his own comment there, Chairboy. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 18:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Blarg, you're right, I misread the diff. Sorry bout that! - CHAIRBOY (☎) 18:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please don't go

That should say it. This may take some time to work out but it would be deeply appreciated if you would stay and continue to help out on the articles. I don't know much about the entire beer matter but am more than willing to learn and do what I can to assist. (Oh, incidentally, I did end up deciding there was enough for checkuser and it seemed to clear the two of you). JoshuaZ 16:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I apologize

Patto1ro, I apologize for accusing you of sockpuppetry. With or without the purported checkuser JoshuaZ alludes to, I realize you two are likely not the same person. Please accept my apology. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 14:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gracious behaviour

Thank you for displaying such gracious behaviour towards others on the Altbier talk page, in the face of others acting less than gracious to you. KP Botany 02:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Homebrew challenge

I don't think I can get anything turned out by the first week of May, but I might brew one or more of those recipes up for my own benefit. I've been meaning to do a porter.

Two things which I think need clarification for authenticity's sake, both to do with Loftus. First, are those mash temperatures he lists the temperature of the water before it goes into the mash tun or the temperature in the tun? If the latter, they strike me as awfully high...

Second, when he talks about pure cultures and how well the beer keeps -- I'm not certain about this, but it sounds more like that's a mixed Brettanomyces/Saccharomyces culture than just a blend of Saccharomyces strains; this fits in with what I've read about British beers of that period having some Brett character. Any input?

It's a shame I didn't find out about this sooner...I was in Amsterdam for the weekend just two weeks ago. --Stlemur 23:13, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it´s a shame that you didn´t find out about the challenge earlier.

I´m sure that the temperatures given by Loftus are for the water before it was added to the grain. If you look at the sample "Brewhouse Journal" entry he gives on page 42 it states "Temp of Liquor".

My understanding is that many 19th century yeast strains were a mixture of Brettanomyces and Saccharomyces. In othere cases, while the primary strain may have been Saccharomyces the storage vats were infected with Brettanomyces. In any case, matured beer always contained Brettanomyces. You can read more about the topic here:

http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/beerale.htm#sykes http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/beerale.htm#hind http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/bret1904.pdf

Even though you may be too late for the competition, I would still be really interested to try what you brew. Patto1ro 07:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

There's an interesting statement on page 315 of the Clausen text: "Most of the difficulties connected with conditioning the beer can doubtless be avoided, as well as the work done for this purpose, such as rolling the casks." When I worked for Courage I can remember being told how the barrels of Courage Russian Stout needed to be kicked around the brewery yard once every few weeks. I always wondered why they needed to do that.
Yeah, "taking the casks out for a walk". It helps avoid stuck fermentation. I'm not entirely certain why it works, but it does; compare Yorkshire Squares.


I'm hoping to have a go at at least one porter next week, depending on whether my local homebrew store stocks enough brown malt at once. Once it gets brewed, it should be ready to go in two weeks. --Stlemur 22:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] spelling correction

licence and license are both acceptable spellings in all dictionaries.

In British English both spellings exist but mean something different: licence is a noun, license a verb.Patto1ro 07:46, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Amsterdam visit

Hi Ron. I've sent you an email about being in Amsterdam for the weekend during the marathon. Friday evening would be possible if we don't get into a session. I'm thinking three drinks would be my max.

I'm looking at some of the pubs on your website. The big names are Gollem, Belgigue, De Wildeman and Arendsnest and I'd like to cover all of them at some time during my visit.

I've only been to 'Dam once before and I wasn't knowledgeable about beer back then so Chrissie and I spent most of our time in bars in Jordaan and along Prinsengracht drinking keg pils and singing loudly! SilkTork *SilkyTalk 10:08, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pale ale

The definition we are working with on the Pale ale article is that these are beers which use pale malts. I notice you have removed a number of beer styles which use pale malts but - if I understand your comment correctly - are not "pale" to the view. As you well know most pale ales are actually quite amber in colour so in theory nearly all the beers we discuss on that article could be removed! Unless you have a particularly strong disagreement I'd like to restore the article so that we can usefully and helpfully discuss beers made from pale malts all in one place. Warm regards. SilkTork *What's YOUR point? 16:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History of beer

Hi there—I'd certainly not like to step on anyone's toes in wading into an article as interesting as this one, but I really don't think that Industrial Revolution section is written in an encyclopedic format. There's too much of a personal voice in there, and while I really like the information it presents, it feels strangely out of place. I had a go at editing it, and posted on the discussion page about how we might try to work the good information that's in there into the article in a little bit more of a formal tone. What're your thoughts on this? Voxish (talk) 19:12, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] March 2008

In a recent edit to the page Beer, you changed one or more words from one international variety of English to another. Because Wikipedia has readers from all over the world, our policy is to respect national varieties of English in Wikipedia articles.

For subjects exclusively related to Britain (for example, a famous British person), use British English. For something related to the United States in the same way, use American English. For something related to other English-speaking countries, such as Canada, Australia, or New Zealand, use the appropriate variety of English used there. If it is an international topic, use the same form of English the original author used.

In view of that, please don't change articles from one version of English to the other, even if you don't normally use the version the article is written in. Respect other people's versions of English. They in turn should respect yours. Other general guidelines on how Wikipedia articles are written can be found in the Wikipedia:Manual of Style. If you have any queries about all this, you can ask me on my talk page or you can visit the help desk. Thank you. I believe that American English is long established for this article and "ize" is proper American English and I understand not uncommon variation in British English as well, though I may be wrong on the second point. Doug.(talk • contribs) 18:55, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] flavour of English

(moved from User talk:Doug for unified discussion)

The page I changed used a mixture of British and American spellings. As the the older versions of the article appeared to be in British English, that's the version I standardised upon. I thought that's the way it worked when the subject wasn't more obviously connected with the USA or Britain. This has come up for discussion before with regard to the Beer page and the agreement was to stick with British English. Look at the discussion page: it says in a header that the article is in British English. I was just trying to make the page consistent, as the worst possible situation is the article having a mixture of the two spellings.Patto1ro (talk) 19:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

If British English is the earlier version than we should use British English, I'll go back and take a more detailed look. As for earlier discussions, please provide links or diffs.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 19:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Just look on the beer discussion page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Beer. Clearly says in the header that the article is in British English. This section specifically discusses which spelling the article uses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Beer#Language_.26_spelling
  • I apologize for not noticing this earlier. I went back and looked at the earliest version in history and the discussion is correct in that the earliest version uses Brit. Eng. flavour rather than Am. Eng. flavor. In the future you may want to consider using an edit summary that better explains the change as the summary spelling often means the editor is unaware of either the MOS or the American spelling or both. Thanks for clarifying this issue with me.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 20:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)