Talk:Patrick Califia

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[edit] Pronouns

moved discussion to Wikipedia_talk:Manual of Style (biographies)#Trans people and pronouns

[edit] External links

Morwen (in the discussion that's been moved) described the Suspect Thoughts site as Califia's "official" website. The official site is presumably http://www.patcalifia.com/, but it links to the other and the two have the same format, with Suspect Thoughts having much more information, so I've included both. (Incidentally, whether male or female, Califia has always been American, so I Americanized "judgemental" and "whilst".) JamesMLane 13:55, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Pronouns and names (again)

I noted the change back again (although the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Manual of Style (biographies)#Trans people and pronouns hasn't concluded SFAICT) but I've left it for the moment. Thing now though is that to the uninitiated reader it makes no sense: "As Pat Califia he came out as a lesbian" but as 'Pat' is short for 'Patrick' the whole first line of 'lesbian' continues to make no sense if referred to for this article. I've had no response to my email yet, btw. --VampWillow 16:41, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Feel free to clarify the wording. But please don't revert this back to using the prnouns that Patrick clearly doesn't use himself. Morwen - Talk 00:17, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Um. The point seems to be being lost here (and your "your offensive version" doesn't help) but the issue here, surely, is not what the people on WP or *any* reference work want or would like or prefer, but what is independent, NPOV and accurate to the task at hand. What Califia wants is, frankly, irrelevant; articles are written for the readers of the article, not the subject of the article. --VampWillow 01:28, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
By that standard there would be nothing wrong with referring to him as 'her' throughout - as that's the form the media usually use and is what readers will be used to. If we respect people's self-identity, we need to do this fully. I've acknowledged your issues about confusion, but they dosn't override the need to be factually accurate and non-offensive.
Since AlexR seems to think this is acceptable, I think I'm going to let the matter lie - at least for the moment. When I made the change the debate appeared to have stalled, with everyone apart from you agreeing with using the correct pronouns throughout the article. Morwen - Talk 06:04, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
ps I know I am being rather, um, dramatic, about this. I'm sorry if I caused you any offence. My original version of that comment was hasty and ill-thought out, which is why i changed it. Morwen - Talk 06:31, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
no probs ... I understand the reasoning and in any other circumstances (ie IRL) I'd have no problem with using male-identified pronouns throughout. Reading the debate where it moved to I don't see that I was the only person wanting to try to be accurate-to-date rather than accurate-to-current-only at all. WP isn't a red top but nor is it personal publishing. We need to take a step back from what we write about to ensure it makes sense to everyone, not just to ourselves. --VampWillow 09:40, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
We need to take a step back from what we write about to ensure it makes sense to everyone, not just to ourselves.: though we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that we are writing an encyclopedia, which should be first concerned with maintaining factual accuracy first, rather than sacrificing that too much for readability. If Patrick is happy to use birth-gender pronouns then perhaps that's fine, and if Pat also identified previously as female (re the relevant paragraph) and then maybe that's fine for this article. But not all trans* people would be happy to have birth-gender pronouns referred to in terms of themselves, and more importantly, nor would it be exactly accurate either. So it is difficult to tar all cases with the same brush. Perhaps the use of qualification by James M is a viable option, but my mind isn't 100% decided on that matter. Dysprosia 10:48, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

As per my comment on the Style page, I don't agree with VampWillow that Califia's preference is irrelevant, but I do agree with her that "he came out as a lesbian" is confusing. I added the parenthetical phrase "still female" in the hope that it will help some readers through this conceptual quicksand. Also, the later sentence about the 1979 publication seemed to have been worded awkwardly in an attempt to avoid using pronouns. On the assumption that the article is (at least temporarily) in a stable mode of using masculine pronouns throughout, I reworded the sentence. By the way, I assume that "Patrick Califia-Rice" incorporates the name of a partner; the article could do with some information about Mr./Ms. Rice, if anyone knows the details. JamesMLane 06:36, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

From more recent information (websites) it appears that the relationship concerned ended :-( ... as such just 'Califia' is presently used although the name was accurate at the point of change. --VampWillow 09:40, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Pronouns, again

I have re-edited the article to use "she" for the period before the female->male gender identity transition, and "he" for all events afterwards, including the present day. I agree, it is a nonsense to say "he came out as a lesbian", and this is also contrary to Califia's own self-identification at the time. -- The Anome 13:09, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

I've now added the four words "Califia was born female". This makes things much easier to read: now we can read "she" from there on, and "he" after the gender reassignment. It also provides a clue to the reader who has started by reading "he" in the intro that the gender reassignment is going to happen. -- The Anome

[edit] Query on type of writings

I note in the first paragraph it states that Pat Caliphia writes on "women's sexuality" ... not to create a huge debate, but his writings are broad enough in subject matter that I would drop "women's" and just say "sexuality" or something like "sexuality, alternative sexuality and gender". "women's sexuality" seems a bit narrow and tame. And I say that not because I'm arguing for her greatness and impact, but because ... I think it *underrepresents* and in that way misrepresents what Caliphia's about. In some senses someone who doesn't know who Caliphia is ... could be in for a shock following some of the links from this article. IMHO. erraunt

[edit] Added magazine credit

In 1992-1993 Patrick (then Pat) founded, edited, and acted as genial dictator on the magazine "Venus Infers", which is self-described as a "leatherwomen's quarterly." I worked in various capacities with Pat on this project, so I would cite myself as a source, as well as Patrick's own current site(s). I added a single sentence adding this credit to the entry. A google of the title will turn up the subtitle "leatherwomen's quarterly." I trust this gender reference, as it is historical, will not excite the pronoun wars yet again. Pat wrote extensively on gender issues in the magazine, which also featured fiction, poetry, features and, of course, lavish photo spreads. I believe the magazine deserves mention as it is represented in the Kinsey Library and was reviewed favorably at the time as quite adventurous and recommended.

[edit] Added magazine credit

In 1992-1993 Patrick (then Pat) founded, edited, and acted as genial dictator on the magazine "Venus Infers", which is self-described as a "leatherwomen's quarterly." I worked in various capacities with Pat on this project, so I would cite myself as a source, as well as Patrick's own current site(s). I added a single sentence adding this credit to the entry. A google of the title will turn up the subtitle "leatherwomen's quarterly." I trust this gender reference, as it is historical, will not excite the pronoun wars yet again. Pat wrote extensively on gender issues in the magazine, which also featured fiction, poetry, features and, of course, lavish photo spreads. I believe the magazine deserves mention as it is represented in the Kinsey Library and was reviewed favorably at the time as quite adventurous and recommended.--Fragileindustries 05:43, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Image