Talk:Patrice Lumumba
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No photograph?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 10:29, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)
Sidney Gottlieb's role in attempting to assassinate Lumumba should be mentioned. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKgottlieb.htm
http://www.counterpunch.org/gottlieb.html Ogg 10:03, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
The definition of "national leader" is incorrect, his ideals were not nationalistic as we mean that definition today, but better described as "anti-apartheid" or "anti-colonialist". 217.19.30.147 11:13, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
But he did actually aim to unite Congo and all the different tribes. So he sought to fight tribalism and unite a nation; in that sense he was a "nationalist", although not in the negative light in which we usually see the term. Mon 6 March 2005, 15:35 GMT
I have added a link to Ludo de Witte and listed him on the request list, because I wish to know more about who he is and what he did. Also, it would be good to have a little more about his background, his beliefs / political philosophy, in addition to all the information about his assassination. Will see what I can dig up. Paperflowergirl 03:07, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Fire, Blood, and Tears Speech
In Africa Within, the whole speech appears (in a diffent translation). Africa Within states that it simply collects material from other sources, but as far as the editors know, no copyright is breached. So perhaps someone could establish whether the speech as it appears there can be copied. Mon 6 March 2005, 15:35 GMT
My last revision (14:24, March 4, 2006 BadLeprechaun) is an effort to remove plagiarized content, blatantly lifted from
Lumumba: 'We shall show the world what the black man can do when he is allowed to work in freedom' Osei Boateng. New African. London: Feb 2000., Iss. 382; pg. 22, 4 pgs
I think the speech is important and should be left in. Or atleast perhaps the Lumumba part... So I've cut down a lot of the text peripheral to the speech itself and put footnotes on the pieces of the speeches. Now I'm not entirely convinced that this consitutes an acceptable break from the plagiarized version, by that I mean that I'm not still violating copyright if copyright there is and that good stuff. Also the form of my footnotes, I think is alright, but not 100% sure.
So I'm just asking that people take a look at what I've done, compare it to the previous version, and ensure that I'm not violating any intellectual property rules here, and that my formatting is alright.
Thanks, --BadLeprechaun 18:30, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
- I think your paraphrase of the New African article is pretty awkward. I'm not sure if it constitutes plagiarism, but it isn't really ideal. It would be preferable to rewrite this section from scratch using more than a single reference. Rhobite 18:34, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, Rhobite. I'm gonna remove the whole section for now as the article can definitely survive without it and think of some better way to include his speech or snippets of it for later on. --BadLeprechaun 21:00, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
MORE ON PHILOSOPHY: Despite this great talk page, there's a noticeable lack of discussion of Lumumba's political philosophy here. At least a summary would be extremely useful to people like me -- reading something else that references this time period and is trying to contextualize it all. Thanks -- Kagillogly (talk) 19:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)kagillogly
Under DEATH OF LUMUMBA: This sentence appears to be an unnecessary and unsourced attempt to bolster the more supported statement that precedes it: "However, the plan is said to have failed because a local CIA member of staff had a conscience issue." Is said by whom? Citation? The sentence could be deleted without changing the substance of the material.
"Eisenhower's apparent call for Lumumba's elimination must have been brought on by this perception." "Must have been" is conjecture. Eliminating the sentence would not change the sense of the paragraph.
"He seemed to gravitate around Soviet Union. Arguably that was because that was the only place he could find support." Given that the article states earlier that Lumumba appealed to the Soviets for aid, "seemed" seems inappropriate. "Arguably" begs an argument--is it not "apparent", as in "He gravitated to the Soviet Union, apparently because that was the only place he found support?". Added later--Of course I meant "international" support. It is evident from his election as prime minister that he had significant internal support.
I didn't edit the article these ways, because I couldn't be sure there are no sources one could cite, only that there were no sources anyone did cite.Danoldh 01:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Definately much of the statements in this article need to be substantiated with citations. As far as the speech, at a bare minimum I added a bit at least mentioning the significance of the speech in the context of the independence and Lumumba's anti-colonial beliefs. Perhaps later when we clear up the plagiarism issue we could add the speech text itself. I hope so at least, its definately important. --A51Abductee 09:30, 20 June 2006 (GMT)
[edit] Quality of article
I just noticed that much of this wiki article is taken directly from an amazon.com book review by Elijah Chingosho. This is perhaps a bit embarrasing for us. I intend to rewrite/revise/add to much of this article, citing my small collection of Lumumba books. I've already begun editing the Path to Prime Minister section and will move on to the rest of the article as time permits. Here's the amazon review if you care:
This article could use alot of improvement. Will do as much as possible before 30th June independence day! Thanks for your help. --A51Abductee 09:23, 20 June 2006 (GMT)
[edit] Actually the review lifted wikipedia
I have to say that if you look at the review's date: April 25, 2006, and then take a look at the history of this article, Revision as of 20:58, 23 March 2006 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Patrice_Lumumba&oldid=45155531 you will see that the reviewer paraphrased the wikipedia article, along with some corrections to its language (the Soviet Union). Elijah Chingosho was free to do that, although I think he should have quoted wikipedia. Atavi 13:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Addition: You don't even have to look at the dates. The review writes "President Eisenhower's apparent call for Lumumba's elimination", when the reviewer had not mentioned Eisenhower anywhere. Obviously the writer of the wikipedia article, wrote that knowing that someone (or himself) had written about the Eisenhower story above. So not only did the reviewer lift the wikipedia article, he didn't even do a good job of clearing plagiarism tracks....
[edit] Changes
There is inconsistency with the country name, that is, Republic of Congo (Belgian Congo, the correct one) and Democratic Republic of Congo (Congo Brazaville, a different country, not Lumumba's).-sbarr
Ah, Atavi, you are quite right. Thank you for the correction. After we've finished improving on this article I hope it doesn't resemble the amazon.com review very much anyway. This article is missing so much contextual information that is desperately needed. For example, there is no mention at all of the ANC anti-colonial revolt of 5 July, or that on 7th September the Congolese chamber and senate completely rejected Kasa Vubu's dismissal of Lumumba and reconfirmed his legality as Prime Minister, or even the fact that it was Lumumba himself in good faith and trust who requested UN intervention in the Congo. I definately intend to make these additions and properly cite them. Onward to 30th June... --A51Abductee 13:21, 20 June 2006 (GMT)
A51Abductee, I completely agree that the facts that you mention should feature in any Lumumba article, and you should go forward with them. I also agree with you that the article is in need of a general revamp. However, I only want to note that making the article different from the amazon review shouldn't be a goal in itself. Of course, if the article is made different, for its own benefit, it is always welcome by any well meaning wikipedian. I will continue to take interest in the article and I think that the changes you intend to make are first priority. So I look forward to seeing the article radically improved! Atavi 15:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC) Bold text
[edit] Quotes.
I see no "Quotes" section.
Certainly, an orator and politician of Lumumba's stature would have several significant quotes. Other wikipedia entries about those close to Lumumba and the struggle for independence in the Congo, like Mobutu, have "Quotes" sections.
[edit] Death of Lumumba
There is a fragment: he was flown to _______ (?) Batula 05:42, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Cleanup
The article is need of cleanup. Right now, sections "Deposed and arrested" and "Death of Lumumba" overlap in their account of the facts. Maybe eventually I will get around to do it myself, but until then this is an open invitation to anyone interested to see what can be done to improve the article. --Atavi 15:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Quality
84.173.132.118 deleted some content, that they probably thought was duplicated and in so doing they tried to clean up the article. Some of it, however, was not present in other points in the article. I have attempted to restore that content. In the process, I have noticed big problems in the article's quality. Content that might have been plagiarized from other pages, conflicting information (Specifically, was he flown to Elizabethville or Jadotville on the eve of his death?), prose that is not suited to an encyclopedia, weasel words, and the list goes on. The task of shaping the article up is no small one.--Atavi 13:49, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
- By web searching, I have uncovered this link and its transcript subpage, which has probably served as the source of much of the article.--Atavi 15:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
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- However, plagiarism has not happened. In fact, it's the other way around: web pages all over have taken text from wikipedia, fortunately they have credited it.--Atavi 15:33, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:CongoDemRepP85a-1Franc-1997(1998)-donatedth b.jpg
Image:CongoDemRepP85a-1Franc-1997(1998)-donatedth b.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 06:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] lack of information
there appears to be a lot missing, apparently he had only one action as PM. What were his policies. He seems to have enemies, but no reasons are given for this, no reasons on why he was removed, or the role he played in the Katangan revolt, How he was viewed, by Congolese, Africans, as well as Europeans, such as those that protested him. Also, why did the Soviets like someone who said communism was deplorable? Rds865 (talk) 01:38, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
