Talk:Patras

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The article Psilalonia Square was nominated for deletion. The debate was closed on 2008-05-07 with a consensus to merge the content into Patras. If the merger is not completed promptly, Psilalonia Square might be re-nominated for deletion.

To discuss the merger, please use this talk page.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Patras article.
Article policies
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:
Peer review Patras has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.
To-do list for Patras: edit · history · watch · refresh

Main objective: to make Patras a Featured article candidate!

Structure & Content

  • trim the external links in line with Wikipedia:External links, bring the See also section before them
  • add citations to the whole article and especially the section "history"
  • expand the lead to conform with guidelines at WP:LEAD.
  • add more on Patras’s role in Greek/Mediterranean urban hierarchy
  • add a subdivision map
  • consider de-list-ifying the Economy section
  • elaborate on Demographics section
  • improve Press section
  • write more on transports and the port
  • improve/renew section on European Cultural Capital by adding more citations, sources and photos
  • elaborate on the rich Political and Cultural History of the city.

Style and text

  • copyediting by native English speaker needed
  • place port view would look nicer in the infobox, above the map, or below the infobox
  • implement WP:CONTEXT, WP:MOSDATE, WP:MOSNUM, WP:MOS#Headings
  • reorder/rename the last few sections to follow guidelines at WP:GTL.
  • alphabetize the categories and/or interlanguage links.

Contents

[edit] Cleanup

OY!

  • Greeklish/Bad English- what is that, you say? all your smurf are belong to smurf! (It's ok you don't understand what i just said, i don't understand the main article, either...)
  • EMBEDDED HTML -- It must be Monday today... I never could get the hang of Mondays...
  • Urban Legends: The tidbit about the carnaval of Patras being the third best in the world is basically an um, urban legend/ propagated by the local authorities of Patra. It started off around 1990-1993, when long-standing announcer of the carnaval Alkis Steas (a Dick Clark figure), started rambling about how this carnival is one of the top three in the world, because representatives of the Rio and Venice carnavals were attending. Nobody ever politely asked him to "STFU, YOU OLD FOOL!"
  • PICTURES of the city! time to check the capabilities of my brand-spanking-new digital Nikon

(More to come) Project2501a 11:11, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have marked this article for clenup. It is mainly the imgaes which are a complete mess at the moment. If they are altered I would say the clean up can be removed. Luke C 19:26, 18 March 2006 (UTC) I have now removed the cleanup as the main issue of the images being all over has been sorted. Luke C 17:34, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Structural Strategy

An abundance of information floods the article. Thus, it has a very high potential. Still, we have to restructure it in order to achieve elegance. There is a large pile of information to accommodate and new contributions arriving frequently. I think the best strategy to follow is this:

  • We keep the total number of sections low.
  • We shouldn't add a new section just on its own shake when there are just two lines of information.
  • When some part of an old section becomes large, it gets its own section.
  • When a section gets really large it gets its own article and we keep a summary here.

Also:

  • Remove the extensive lists and replace them with text.
  • Remove duplicate information when it is excessive.

At least, I will follow this strategy. Hope you like it. I would like your additions and contributions. Energon 00:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Tentative List

Let's make this article great. What's missing from it, is prototype information. It has good articles, on every sector of the city life. Still, it is missing the extraordinary. So, I would suggest:

PHOTOS

  • to accompany Research (preferably, the impressive ITY building)
  • of the new ultra-modern archaeological museum

MAPS

  • of the city subdivisions and suburbs --> Done Energon (talk) 13:22, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
  • of the city infrastructure
  • density and land value

GRAPHS

  • population increase Energon 14:29, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Please, add anything innovative to this list. Things that can alleviate the article over the common blah-blah-blah. To provide dense and new information. Energon 14:29, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Isn't the usual name in English "Patras"? In which case, Wikipedia policy says we should use that as the article title while of course mentioning the Greek name in the text. --Macrakis 21:50, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is, and that's what we should use. See my inexcusably inappropriate comments at Talk:Peloponnese (Warning: explicit language). --Jpbrenna 00:13, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If this is correct, you should probably change the article to use Patras rather than Patra. Talrias (t | e | c) 01:56, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
I have turned Patra into a disambig page, rather than a redirect, as there at least 2 other uses of the word that I know of. I'll try and fix any links to the original Patra page over the next couple of days. --Bwmodular 13:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Manufacturing

I don't know any important companies in metal processing located in Patras. Does anyone know something about that or we should remove it from the page? Energon 20:16, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nafpaktos

I think it is far too streched to include this city in the Urban area of Patras.


I must admit that there are grounds for believing this, however a recent paper by professor Vassilis Pappas ERSA conference, concludes that : "Today, and according to the extents of built space and all natures of flows and networks in this, the wider urban complex tends to include and the Municipalities of Rion, Antirrion and Navpactos. The relation of interdependence Patras – Rion is undeniable. The other two Municipalities, Antirrion and Navpactos present to-day a relative lifting of pre-existed "withholding of" contacts, because the cost (time and eco-nomic) of passing the canal via ferries, but not in the expected rhythms. Resent unofficial meas-urements show that the increase of vehicles traffics, via the bridge, has been increased in a per-centage of 20–25%. Undeniably and in any case, Patras constitutes a first degree centre of ser-vices for the three other Municipalities, as well as for the entire region of Western Greece". Because the topic may seem debatable, I would like users to elaborate more on the arguments for or against this suggestion, so that we could amicably conclude about the appropriate reference. As I lack specialist knowledge on the subject of urban science, I can only infer through such kind of sources. --Conudrum 15:26, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


My antithesis lies in the use of the word Urban area. I cannot see a continuous urban space and facilities between the two cities, or the population density "required" in order to justify such an argument. It is obvious that Patras is the Metropolitan center of this area, and I would include Aigio and Kato Achaia in this term. But as far as it concerns urban - in the way of Athens or Thessaloniki urban complexes are conceived, I think Nafpaktos is far away to be included in "Patras Poleodomiko Sygkrotima". Aigio would be more suitable even though still not eligible.

To give an example: Loutraki, Megara, Oinofyta are part of the Metropolitan Area - (some of them in a transition phase probably). Elefsina, Mandra, Agios Stefanos, Kapandriti are part of the Urban Area.

Though those elements change constantly and it might come a day were Nafpaktos will be in a sense the Oakland of Patras (1), I think it is too early to jump in such a conclusion.

P.S> Thank you for your responsible answer. Energon 13:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I see your point. As a matter of literal interpretation of terms Naupactus is not a part of a continuous urban area mainly, I would add, because of the unbuilt space from there to Antirio. Besides, Naupactus is just 15 km from Patras (easy commuting distance), while Aigio is 40 km from Patras and the mountainous and uninhabited area between them is a significant natural obstacle. Moreover in the case of Naupactus, an expensive toll bridge may delay urban sprawl more than in the case more reasonable charges applied. Nevertheless, any empty space will be sooner or later covered by concrete. However, the town planning of the area seems to ignore that. Thus, without any anticipatory measures it is possible that a disordered expansion may duplicate the existing model of the concrete jungle. Therefore, from a regulatory point of view it would be wiser to plan for the foreseeable future. Finally, I would like to propose, because you seem familiar with the topic, if you have the time to include a reference to the position of Patras in the urban hierarchy of Greece, as a secondary urban center with supralocal importance for Western Greece, the Peloponnese and the Ionian islands. Thank you --Conudrum 23:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Patra should be moved to Patras. While Patra is the correct modern, Demotic Greek name, it is not the correct name of the city in English. For comparison, note that Athens is not called Athen. --Jpbrenna 8 July 2005 22:03 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Support. Athens is not Athen in English, nor is it called Athina. Ditto for Patras. In the Greek Wikipedia, feel free to call it η Πάτρα, οι Πάτρες, or ἁι Πάτραι or whatever you wish - no skin off my arhidia. Here, however, it should be called Patras. --Jpbrenna 8 July 2005 22:11 (UTC)
  • Support. See my comments above. --Macrakis 8 July 2005 23:05 (UTC)
  • Support. Philip Baird Shearer 10:26, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. English place names should be used. – AxSkov (T) 12:02, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Support'. Although I would also like to be Patra I know that in English is Patras and In my opinion must be with the English way because we are in the English version of Wikipedia. Curunvir 14:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It's done. The article needs updating to reflect the new title. Talrias (t | e | c) 20:07, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
See above - have turned Patra into a disambig page. --Bwmodular 13:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

Athens is not Athen in English, nor is it called Athina. Ditto for Patras. In the Greek Wikipedia, feel free to call it η Πάτρα, οι Πάτρες, or ἁι Πάτραι or whatever you wish. Here, however, it should be called Patras. --Jpbrenna 8 July 2005 22:11 (UTC)

Hey! malaka, no cursing! :) Project2501a 8 July 2005 22:45 (UTC)
Don't post that under Macrakis's vote when it's addresed to me. And don't be hypocritical!

[edit] Lack of statistical data

Could anybody contribute accurate statistical data on population, area, economy, environment for this town? Donnerstag 01:02, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of Patras

First of all, I am not sure about how long the section "history" in this article should be and what is accepatable by wikipedia standards. Is it prudent to create a separate article under the title "History of Patras" or to continue the existing article? However, there are important facts that go unmentioned --for instance this article dedicates just a few words about the byzantine period. Just an example of what is probably in ommission: in the middle byzantine period (9th century) the rich widow Danielis from Patras owned half of the Peloponnese and 3,000 slaves (See also Steven Runciman, the historian of Patras Triantafullou, or even the byzantine Theophanes). When her protégé Basil I became an emperor of the Byzantine empire, she travelled by land to Constantinople in order to visit him. Even if the personal story seems insignificant, the flourishing carpet industry of Danielis is indicative of the wealth of Patras in that era and therefore worth mentioning. I must say that it is really useful that Arethas of Patras was recently included in the article. Please feel free to express your thoughts.--Conudrum 10:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


I also think the section "history" is far too long and somehow makes you reluctant to read the rest of the article. Since there is a separate article for this matter, to help people that want specific information on the subject, we should summarize the whole thing into one or two paragraphs. Energon 09:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


I come back to this issue. The history section is really long. I really don't find significant differences between the separate article and the section. We should merge subsections and use one paragraph for each era. Anyone interested to more details can read the main history article. The readers interested only in Patras need just a summary. Energon 22:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I dont want a revert war

But Im going to do my changes again. The wiki image standard size is 180px. Definately not 460px! Luke C 09:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Subpages

I'm watching the gradual improvement of the page. A suggestion to the editors: The article is getting bigger and bigger and, for me, unbalanced. Shouldn't you think of introducing certain sub-pages (in history section for instance- Question: Modern Patras is not a part of history? Why is it a seperate section?), which will improve the style and will reestablish a better balance between the sections, helping, at the same time, the reader?--Yannismarou 14:48, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Yannismarou is right. Few days ago I typed a new introduction, trying to follow the suggestions of WP:Lead. In this effort I experienced a problem with the lack of agreed structure.

Yes the previous intro was really miserable and boring to the reader but what should be included in it in view of the lack of standardized structure. I think I'll focus efforts on structure first. Yannismarou, could you please elaborate on what exactly would make the article more balanced? Many thanks. --Donnerstag 20:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I've already made my suggestions in the peer review page. In terms of content, I could add the following remarks: It's nice a subpage for the history of Patras is created, but the new page repeats the exact content of the existing history section in the Patras' article. The goal is the history section to be rewritten, in order to constitute a resumé of the subpage History of Patras. Otherwise, we achieve nothing and we do not transfer material to the new subpage. Since History of Patras contains all the details, why should we repeat them in Patras? I also think that the People section (with the subtitle statesmen) should be relocated within the article and somehow connected with the history section and History of Patras. My point is that a more rational organisation of the good material is necessary.
Sections like Press, Sport and Name are too small. They should either be expanded or merged with relevant sections. I cannot make more specific suggestions for these sections, because I lack the adequate bibliography and knowledge.
Something must be done with the notes in the history section. They are in Greek, they are not linked with the text above and they are not at the end of the article with the other reference. I cannot interfere, because I donot know the exact bibliographical sources.
Other sections like the economy section are not yet ready and, hence, I cannot yet specify how can the article become more balanced. Another remark I can make is that the culture section needs copy-edit and, maybe, reconsidering of its structure.
I hope I'll be able to be more specific in the future.--Yannismarou 17:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the culture section needs a clean-up. Maybe, a new article about Patras - European Capital of Culture, should host all these things Energon 10:15, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gaypatras link removal

I would like to ask why the link of gaypatras.gr was removed?It's a site of the LGBT community of Patras containing a forum, news concerning the local gay and lesbian community and a guide of Patras. What is the reason of removal can anyone please answer?thank you

Apantisi: file mou einai aplo, den to exeis katalavei oti merikoi theoroun ayti ti selida idiotiki? Dystyxos i pleiopsifia ton patrinon einai toso m@l@kes pou den mporoun na katalavoun oti yparxei alitheia pera apo tin ypokeimeniki tous apopsi, ki etsi efarmozoun logokrisia kata ripas ......

I have no idea who removed your links. Please consider WP:EL. I think that the links were way too many. So that we have to agree to include only few of them that are directly related to the city. Now if you have an opinion and wish to contribute to the article you are can do it. But please refrain from verbal attacks and get a username first. --Donnerstag 17:23, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] link removal

Tha ithela na ksero poio atomo svinei links pros sites sxetika me tin Patra.

[edit] Article too long and stretched

The Economy and Infrastructure sections give a worm like appearence to the article. This is a great and important city, I just wish the page looked better. Maybe someone needs to make some sub article pages on the Economy and Infrastructure? As it is the page looks very unattractive and confused. Reaper7 16:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with you. There is too much information just in one page. Also we use a lot of lists that become boring and unattractive. There is a huge pile of data that need to be organized in separate pages or coded into fewer words. Even the Table of Contents is HUGE. I just copied the printed version into MS-word and it is 30 pages long... Energon 13:02, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anglican Church Picture Added

Hey guys, I just added a pic of the Anglican Church, the one near KTEL. I placed it in the section of the article I found more appropriate so not to disturb the normal view. If you think it should be added somewhere else or you might have a better pic, you're free to change it. Iaberis 16:48, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello laberis, I moved it to the gallery section. The history section is already overly stretched. Energon 22:57, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infrastructure

I am gonna try delistify the infrastructure section. Also remove irrelevant things (tavernas, cafes)... ήμαρτον δηλαδή. Energon 14:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Done, I hope you like it more now. Please mention any additional information I have omitted. Since the section is already large, lets keep it to the important stuff however. Energon 15:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Sports

We need something like that in the sports section:

Logo Club Leagues Venue Established
Dinamo Zagreb Logo NK Dinamo Zagreb Croatian First Football League Maksimir Stadium 1911
NK Zagreb Logo NK Zagreb Croatian First Football League Stadium Kranjčevićeva 1903
Hrvatski Dragovoljac Logo Hrvatski Dragovoljac Croatian Second Football League Stadion u Sigetu 1975

Energon 20:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Done, I hope you like it. Energon (talk) 11:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Content

I am searching from some free content (maps, photo, graphs). Please comment on the possible status of the links I provide:

  • Old master plan of patras:

http://hellas.teipir.gr/IMNPatron/Photos_html/oldmap.htm

^^I have done this already, the image belongs to the public domain, since Stamatis Voulgaris is dead long ago. Energon 16:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


  • Find or make a map with the connections of Patras to Ionian islands (Crete as well?) and Italy:

http://www.ferries-greece-italy.gr/images/MAP.JPG

  • Research map of Greece (we could use it in several articles of the wikiproject:Greece -->

http://library.certh.gr/mobility/large_map.html http://www.elke.gr/newsletter/cms/media/gget_map.pdf Energon 11:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Agios Andreas

Is there any article about the church? If not I think there should be done one... Iaberis (talk) 15:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Button europeancapital en.jpg

Image:Button europeancapital en.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 03:58, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. El Greco(talk) 20:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)