User talk:Pasquale

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[edit] Willkommen, bonjour/bonsoir, salve, kia ora!

Good to see another linguist declaring himself.

Do you know you can get your previous anonymous edits attributed to your user name? Wikipedia:Changing_attribution_for_an_edit

If you could bear to glance at the very new WP for a reviving modern Polynesian language with over 100,000 speakers but only half a dozen WP contributors, please see my last 500 contributions (haha)

Kind regards Robin Patterson 01:39, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] List of alternative country names

Could you possibly add new entries in an alphabetical order? That eases later additions a bit. Halibutt 14:05, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC)

Refer to the talk page. A proposal was made and I implemented it. --Jiang 22:38, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
If you have objections, then make them. We'll act on consensus. No objections were made to the proposal to split the article. --Jiang 22:41, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Pasquale, in case you looked and gave up in disgust that I didn't keep my promise, I have made a start -- a day late (sorry) -- on answering your questions re my interventions in the List of alternative country names. See my talk page. -- Picapica 23:39, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I've now finished my answers. I ought to let you know, too, that I have referred to you on User talk:Pne -- Picapica 20:07, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Transcription of Greek spellings

Hi Pasquale, I've answered you on my talk page. -- pne 07:32, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] List of alternative country names 2

Hi, could you please add a note in the List of alternative country names that Serbian J is equivalent to English J like in for an example : You

[edit] List of alternative country names 2

Hi, could you please add a note in the List of alternative country names that Serbian J is equivalent to English J like in for an example : You

[[User:Avala|Avala|★]] 17:46, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hi, Pasquale.

  • Actually, Południowa Afryka means in Polish rather "Southern part of Africa". For the country, Afryka Południowa or Republika Południowej Afryki is usually used. Reverse word order emphasizes the fact that the adjective here is denominative rather then descriptive. Such order is also standard in many other similar Polish names, like N/S Korea, Northern Ireland or Western Samoa.
  • Rakusy as name for Austria were used primarily between 14th and 17th century. This word is unrecognizeable by nearly all users of modern Polish, so I believe that including it in your list has very limited value.

Naive cynic 01:52, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)

PS: Thanks for fixing my sloppy cyrillic transcription. :)

Rakusy perhaps is unknown, but Rakusza is still understandable (at least among those who passed their final school exams from history). The word is also reflected in many royalty names like Elżbieta Rakuszanka. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 04:12, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)
It doesn't appear in PWN encyclopedia, PWN thesaurus or Polish wordlist. Google search gives one hit - name of a horse. -- Naive cynic 08:57, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)

Hi N.c.,

As far as South Africa is concerned, your point is persuasive. I had assumed that, since the full official name is Republika Południowej Afryki, the short name had to be Południowa Afryka, but adjective placement is a subtle linguistic distinction in Polish, requiring a sense for the language that I do not have. So, I have already restored Afryka Południowa. (On the other hand, USA seems to be given everywhere as Stany Zjednoczone Ameryki.)

I can very well understand it being confusing sometimes. Since Polish is a highly inflected language, its word order is very flexible, but it still often carries subtle stylistic (or, in this case, semantic) distinctions.
For the US, both names are used, but neither is common. -- Naive cynic 22:19, Aug 14, 2004 (UTC)

As far as Rakusza is concerned, you have to consider the following. The List of country names in various languages has had nearly one thousand contributions, and Rakusza has been there since the very first contribution. This article was started on 7 Jul 2004 by [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] with four country names, one of which was Austria. Now, you say that Rakusza does not exist, that only Rakusy existed, primarily between 14th and 17th century. Could it be that Halibutt erroneously back-formed Rakusza from the adjective form Rakuszanka??? For the time being, I have changed it to Rakusy. Personally, I believe including historical forms in this list is of great value. Several other historical forms have in fact been included.

I can't (of course) say that *Rakusza doesn't exist, I have simply never seen it (as opposed to Rakusy which used to be quite popular at that time). Since the meaning (but not the etymology) of Rakuszanin and Rakuszanka ("an Austrian", "a female Austrian") is still recognized in some regions, it seems possible that *Rakusza would be some kind of back-derivation from them. You could perhaps ask Halibutt about his source.
I wasn't aware that the list was supposed to include historical forms as well, this of course invalidates my previous comment. :) -- Naive cynic 22:19, Aug 14, 2004 (UTC)

BTW, can anyone explain the etymology of the "Raku-" forms for Austria in the West Slavic languages? The other etymology I am dying to find out about is Lithuanian Vokietija and Latvian Vācija for Germany.

Polish Rakusy comes from Rakus ("an Austrian", historically), which itself comes from Czech Rakous. According to Aleksander Brückner, the Czech name comes from the castle of Rötz (Rakous, in Czech) in Bavaria, at the Bohemian border. I guess that Czech sources can provide more details.
I have heard these Baltic names to come from Vagoths which supposedly were Gothic tribe inhabiting Gotland, but you should probably verify it. -- Naive cynic 22:19, Aug 14, 2004 (UTC)

Pasquale 17:57, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] List of country names in various languages

Hi !

Thanks for your feedback regarding List of country names in various languages. I completely agree with you what it comes to cyrillic transliteration and I apologize my previous slightly messy edits. Anyway I decided to use ISO-9:1995 transliteration for cyrillic letters and changed previous edits to match this. I hope this makes text look more uniform from now on. --Kulkuri 16:26, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hello, Trying to figure out how the Scandanavian place names in List of country names in various languages settled on the convention of using the Latin form as the standard for rendering in English. Have not found this approach common in English language publications - much more common to use an Anglicized form of the Swedish, Norwegian or Danish. Since you appear to be the founder and strongest contributor, am hoping you can clarify (or direct me to the source of this Wiki convention). Thanks Williamborg 16:47, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the pointer to the VfD. I found your attitude there a little disconcerting, btw. But I voted for keep because I find the collection useful the way they are. -- pne (talk) 20:33, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] city name changes

Hi! I am really sorry if I changed some city names but I didn`t have any vandal intention and I hope you will show some respect for what I done and how many city names I have added. What I thought that Lozanna was a typo because nn and it is read Lozana. I hope that we will stay in friendly realtionship and that we will cooperate instead of accusing each other.

[[User:Avala|Avala|★]] 19:02, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Elymian language at the Sicels entry

"the Elymian language, which some would consider related to Ligurian or to Anatolian." Would you be a little more specific here please. We need your help. Even to identify "Some" perhaps. Or "How" would help. Perhaps you'd best re-edit the Elymian entry. And please add an External Link, if there's anything on the web, to help us out. Thank you. Wetman 06:13, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Megara Hybaea

Megara Hyblaea, I suppose (a "L" is missing) [1] from Italy

Grazie! Pasquale 18:27, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Sanksrit origin for Afghanistan

No, I'm not aware of the use of the word sthaana in any comparable sense in Sanskrit. I come from a community where the word for temple is devasthaana. This may be understood to mean 'place of the gods', but it does not mean 'country of the gods'. I don't claim to be an expert, but I do claim to be reasonably sure that the name Rajasthan is a relatively recent derivation, due to Persian / Urdu influence. No doubt there are linguistic nationalists who would do anything to claim a Sanskrit origin,

http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT/DICO/s.html#sth=ana

The comparable words in Sanskrit for the Persian meaning of 'stan' (country, land) would be desha, or sometimes perhaps bhumi or a derivation. Do you have any counter-examples of the term sthaana used for land/country, unambiguously derived from Sanskrit? Imc 17:25, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Thanks for your comments Pasquale. I've read (skimmed) through the talk page for these etymologies. It's entertaining sometimes! Imc 19:04, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Geographical names

Greetings, Pasquale. I have recently stumbled upon a large database of geographical names in various languages, and I thought that it might perhaps be of interest to you. You can find it at http://www.eki.ee/knab/knab.htm. Another such database, though apparently much smaller, is at http://www.geonames.de/indcou.html. -- Naive cynic 20:55, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC) -- Thanks, Pasquale 19:40, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hello, Pasquale. Thanks for your pointer to the discussion on European cities with alternative names; I do indeed not visit it often, but tend to agree with your points. I left a comment on the talk page. -- pne 07:17, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Finno-Ugric languages

A debate on the validity of Finno-Ugric is going on at Talk:Finno-Ugric language; as a historical linguist, your input would be particularly welcome. - Mustafaa 21:47, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Folk/fake etymology

The distinction between folk and fake etymology didn't originate with me! They're completely different things, and they're not even opposites. Folk etymology is a process that changes a word or phrase; that process is part of the actual history of the word of phrase.

The reason that the phrase "kitty-corner" exists is that enough people mistook "cater-corner" to be about cats that it caught on. You can't explain why "kitty-corner" exists without talking about the process by which people misunderstood its history and changed it based on that misunderstanding. That process is folk etymology.

But when you say something is a fake etymology, you're simply saying that that particular account of its history is inaccurate. It's just an etymology that's fake.

In other words, to say "cater-corner" refers to the way cats walk is a fake etymology, because, well, it's not true. But to say "kitty-corner" developed from "cater-corner" because many believed "cater-corner" to refer to the way cats walk is a description of an instance where the folk-etymological process occurred.

"Popular etymology" isn't a synonym of "folk etymology". It's an etymology which is popular instead of accurate, which is fake etymology. It's "popular" like "popular belief". It has the advantage of not looking quite so judgmental in the middle of an article that isn't about a word's history. I have no idea which way this should go having dug further. See Talk:Folk etymology.

So when you're talking about an explanation of a word's history which is well-known but wrong, you have a fake etymology; when you're talking about the way that misunderstandings can create change in a word of phrase, you're talking about the process of folk etymology. "Fake etymology" basically means "fake history-of-a-word"; "folk etymology" means something closer to "folk changing-of-a-word".

(Note that Folk etymology and fake etymology still need some work; folk etymology still doesn't capture that folk etymology is process and not result. Auto movil and I were fighting over that a bit and have settled down to only discussing it; I've put what I think is a decent explanation of the difference on his talk page which you might find useful.)

"Folk etymology" is generally misunderstood that way, because it looks like "etymology" being modified by an adjective, and because it's so similar to "fake etymology", and because some particular fake etymology must be involved in the process of folk etymology.

Man, I really need to get this stuff back on the article's talk page. I'm going to cut and paste a bit of this and a bit of what I wrote to User:Auto movil onto the article's talk page, and we should probably continue the discussion there. :-) — mendel ☎ 14:42, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

Done -- let's continue this discussion on Talk:Folk etymology. — mendel ☎ 16:06, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
You wrote:
But then, why say fake etymology and make such a big deal of it
I have no idea. The article was there when I came along, and it seemed like a good place to move all of the not-really-folk-etymology bits from fake etymology. And then when it came time to fix the articles that pointed at folk etymology but were talking about mistaken etymologies, pointing them at fake etymology followed naturally. But if you can think of something better to do there I'm all ears. I think "fake etymology" is a confusing and awkward term. Google returns mostly Wikipedia mirrors for it, but I'm hesitant to stick it on VfD because I think a list of etymologies that are inaccurate but popular is useful.
It was important to me to get folk etymology to stop talking about etymologies that were wrong, but I don't really have any investment in fake etymology except as a place to stick the stuff that doesn't belong on folk etymology. Thoughts? — mendel ☎ 00:44, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
I hear you. Sounds good. Let's mull it over for a while. It's not a life-and-death situation. I think you've got some good points there. The main things now are: Are there better expressions than fake etymology for that particular (and fascinating!) meaning? And, what exactly does Popular etymology mean -- and so, what sould it redirect to? Pasquale 01:13, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
A disambig page for popular etymology is an excellent solution. I feel sort of silly for not thinking of it myself. I'll throw one in place shortly. — mendel ☎ 01:28, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Some background on the Finno-ugric debate

Hi Pasquale,

On my talk page you wrote:

"There is absolutely no serious scientific dispute about the status of the Finno-Ugric language family. You have done a disservice to the Wikipedia by elevating this troll to such high status. Pasquale 21:31, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)"

Let me give you a little background on the subject of the Finno-Ugric debate and User:Antifinnougric.

In Hungary there is a highly charged political debate between academics who support the finno-ugric theory and their usually (far) right wing critics. You are correct that there is very little serious debate in the linguistic community. But in Hungary the debate is not linguistic, it's political. We've reached a point where Hungarian academists rarely dare to speak up and criticise the proponents of alternative theories lest they be charged with being "Anti-Hungarian" and "serving foreign interests" by "trying to hide the true origins of our language" (exactly the kinds of rhetoric Antifinnougric repeats).

The alternate theories range from relatively moderate supporters of Turkic origins of the Hungarian language to truly radicals supporting Sumerian and even Japanese origins. Usually the closer the proponents of a theory are to the fringes of the political spectrum the more off the wall their theories and the more agressive their rhetoric become.

Hungarian Wikipedia editors treat User:Antifinnougric in a very special way. He is the first truly radical editor (both in a political and "scientific" sense) in the Hungarian Wikipedia and he was the one who started the first ever edit war on the Hungarian pages (still going on in some sense). What many of us are trying to do is set up a positive precedent by being extremely polite and patient with him and follow all the guidelines described in Wikipedia:NPOV, Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Wikilove. It's often not easy, he had upset many editors with his behavior and his radical views on finn-ugric theory in the Hungarian WP could not be formulated into acceptable articles yet.

I hope this sheds some light on why many Hungarian editors (including me) seem to be surprisingly patient with him. I know his tendency to start edit wars (if you look at the page histories, you'll see that there are still edit wars going on) and the best I can do when I see him insert arguments of his campaign trying to discredit the finno-ugric theory is to mark articles being POV and needing attention and hoping that editors with a background in linguistics and above all enough patience will come and correct his often incorrect and/or POV statements. (Although I'm Hungarian I'm a software guy and I know little about linguistics).

Cheers, Nyenyec 23:54, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hi Nyenyec,
Thank you for your reply, but I am afraid your "polite" policy is quite misguided. The appropriate thing to do would be to bar this individual from the Wikipedia, in Hungarian, English, or any other language. He has now brought his two idiotic questions to my talk page (above), not realizing that no linguist is ever going to bother responding to them, because they make asolutely no sense. I understand what you are saying about the political debates and I am aware such debates exist in many countries, but they have absolutely nothing to do with linguistics. In India, for example, there is a raging debate about the autochthonous origin of the Aryans, with many people believing Sanskrit is native to India since creation and, therefore, all other Indo-European languages, to the extent they are related to Sanskrit, must come from India. These theories invade the Internet too, but they are ignored by linguists, because they have no scientific merit. It is a mistake to engage these crackpots in a debate, because it leads nowhere. As I have said before, I would not engage a physicist in a debate on the quantum theory, because I don't know anything about it. But at least I know I don't know anything about it. So, I don't believe I am being an élitist if I ask non-linguists to leave Linguistics to linguists. Pasquale 21:38, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Improvements to Finno-Ugric languages

Hi Pasquale,

Thanks for correcting what I wrote in Finno-Ugric languages#Structural features. You say that "my" and "your" are not possessive pronouns; do you realize the page on possessive pronouns says otherwise? I don't know one way or the other, but you might want to correct that page if it's wrong. Also, at Talk:Uralic languages#Possessive pronouns, Dhanak says "enyém means mine, tiéd is yours" in Hungarian. Again, I have no idea whether that is correct.

It's clear you're quite frustrated with User:Antifinnugor's behavior, as are we all. Try not to take it personally! Also, note that Finno-Ugric languages has improved a lot since her attacks started on November 9. Her actions have caused a lot of people to think about the topic more critically, and the article has benefitted from that.

Dbenbenn 03:36, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You're welcome. The difference between a possessive adjective and a possessive pronoun is very simple: The adjective is followed by a noun (e.g. "my book", "your book") while the pronoun is not ("mine", "yours"). It is the same difference as between a demonstrative adjective and a demonstrative pronoun (e.g. "that book" vs. "that"). Forgive me if I say so, but this is Grammar 101. Now, it may be that the reason these are often confused is that in many languages they are identical (e.g. Italian "il mio libro" vs. "il mio"; "questo libro" vs. "questo").
Many languages do not have either possessive adjectives or pronouns because they simply use the genitive of the personal pronouns, strictly speaking the equivalents of "of me", "of you", etc., but with a case ending instead of a preposition; e.g. Japanese "watashi" ("I") : "watashi-no hon" ("my book"), where the suffix "-no" is the equivalent of a genitive case ending. This works just fine. You will obviously see how there is no loss of meaning if you say "book of me" rather than "my book" (adjective), or "of me" rather than "mine" (pronoun).
Believe me, I do not take User:Antifinnugor's behavior personally at all. The things this person says are clearly borne of ignorance and they are just good for a laugh. However, I have also said that this person, who clearly fits the definition of crank, if not troll, should have no place in the Wikipedia. By the way, I did not realize that User:Antifinnugor was a she. You can only feel sorry for this person.
Pasquale 21:10, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The phrase "friend of mine" is an interesting exception, eh? As far as Grammar 101 goes, I admit I don't know anything formal about grammar. The fact that I'm completely ignorant of linguistics means I see inconsistencies or confusing explanations that an expert such as you might overlook. (To steal your phrase, I would be perfectly capable of debating a physicist.) Anyway, since the article should be aimed at regular people, it makes sense for me to question anything I can't understand.
If I had referred to Antifinnugor as "he", would you have assumed I knew she was male? I tried to phrase what I wrote in gender neutral terms, but I felt constantly saying "this person" was too awkward. So I arbitrarily picked "she". And as a bonus, it points out the issue of systemic sexism in English.
In my experience, when a native Hungarian speaker tells a story in English about an arbitrary person, whose sex is not identified, she tends to switch back and forth between "he" and "she". The Hungarian doesn't even notice she's doing this until the terribly confused American listener mentions it. I have a theory that Hungarian brains can think of gender-neutral people in a way that American brains can't, simply because the Hungarian language supports gender-neutral speech. --Dbenbenn 01:37, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
No, Dbenbenn, the phrase "friend of mine" is actually not an exception. As for my statement about Grammar 101, it was not meant to be in any way a reproach, I thought that was clear. And, in any case, as you can see from the talk page, I had to backtrack on that terminological point, since clearly the Wikipedia article on Possessive pronouns uses the terms determinative possessive pronouns and independent possessive pronouns for what I was referring to, respectively, as "possessive adjectives" and "possessive pronouns". Furthermore, I totally agree that the Wikipedia contents should be aimed at the general public. When I have made references to linguists vs. non-linguists, I assure you I was not trying to score points or get on a high horse, but I was simply referring to very specific factual points.
I definitely was assuming User:Antifinnugor was a male because of her aggressiveness. I don't believe it's sexist of me to assume that. I would say statistically it would be very unusual for a female to be so combative in the face of a host of people telling you you are wrong, and to fight them individually one after the other.
As far as gender-neutral usage is concerned, as a linguist (you'll forgive me!), I'm well aware of a host of languages that have a single, gender-neutral third-person pronoun, including Turkish and all other Altaic languages, and also Chinese. (Although in Chinese there are different characters for 'he' and 'she', the word is the same, "ta1", and linguists have proven that the word was always the same and that the two different characters always represented a purely graphic, not verbal, distinction.) Most if not all of these languages are spoken by cultures that are traditionally quite sexist, proving once again that there is rarely any correlation between linguistic and cultural features. Pasquale 02:19, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Article Licensing

Hi, I've started a drive to get users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to either (1) all U.S. state, county, and city articles or (2) all articles, using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) v1.0 and v2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to Wikipedia's license, the GFDL, but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles. Since you are among the top 1000 Wikipedians by edits, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles. Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the "{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}" template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

Option 1
I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:
{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}

OR

Option 2
I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions to any [[U.S. state]], county, or city article as described below:
{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace "{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}" with "{{MultiLicensePD}}". If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know what you think at my talk page. It's important to know either way so no one keeps asking. -- Ram-Man (comment| talk)

[edit] Article disputes

Hello, and thanks for your note on my talk page. A good place to start when in disagreement with another user regarding the content of an article is Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Even when it seems someone else is completely off base in the information they are contributing, it's important to follow the appropriate steps to ensure a smooth resolution to the issue. Hope this helps.  – Jrdioko (Talk) 02:45, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Walliser/Walser

I was wrong to equal Walliser and Walser. My main critique on the article was that to me, it looked as if there were the Walser language standing as a language on its own as opposed to the Alemannic language/dialects spoken in the Wallis as well as in other parts. The dialects spoken by the Walser are very heterogenous. They differ from each other as much as they differ from the Alemannic dialects of the Wallis.

I'd rather prefer to have an article on Walser migration with a section on the dialects, since they are only one of the different elements that constitute the Walser, together with the denominations (many place names) and the culture (a special type of settlements and of agriculture).

I've made several changes to Walser language, mainly replacing language by dialects. Especially in linguistics, the Alemannic varieties are considered dialects. The wikipedia articles on Alemannic speak all of dialects, not of languages. J. 'mach' wust 14:24, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Allow me to cite your own reply here so the everything stays on the same page:
OK, I read your message and saw your changes. I understand what you're saying about the Walser diaspora speaking a rather diverse group of dialects rather than a language. And I've studied enough dialectology (including German dialectology) to know what you're talking about. While in a strict dialectological sense, you are most probably quite correct, the fact remains that a lot of sources, including the Ethnologue (a link is available on the Walser page), consistently classify Walser as a separate "language" from Alemannic, possibly simply to underscore the distinctive Walser ethnic identity. This identity is very strong and it specifically identifies the diaspora, all the way from Haute-Savoie to Tyrol, but not the Walliser who stayed in Wallis. This is a very common phenomenon all around the world (e.g. the Cajuns of Louisiana vs. the Acadians who stayed behind in New Brunswick), so it's no surprise that it should be so. Historical and political considerations often trump a strictly dialectological classification and it makes sense that it should be so. Otherwise, if you were to apply a strictly dialectological approach, you would have to say that there is no Dutch language, but that Dutch is simply part of the Low German dialect continuum. While that is technically correct, it would not be very "politically correct" and it would get you into a lot of trouble. Regards, Pasquale 17:00, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
How come you're affirming that there's a strong ethnic identity among the Walser diaspora? For more than half a millenium, they've been seperated from each other, not only by high mountains, but also by regions where other people live (many Walser settlements are isolated), by political borders and by confession (they left the Wallis before the reformation and some became protestant). Therefore, I think that the Walliser identity is much stronger than the Walser identity.
The language of those who live within German speaking areas has assimilated to the surrounding dialects. That is, it has become less archaic than the original Walliser dialects. I knew Walser people when I visited a friend in Liechtenstein (his father is from Triesenberg). In my Bernese German ears, their dialect was identical to the Liechtensteiner dialect, and very different from the Walliser dialect (which I can hardly understand). I guess that one has to be from the region in order to hear the differences between the normal Liechtenstein dialect and the Walser Liechtenstein dialect.
Politically, it is very strange to Swiss people if the Walser dialects are considered a language on its own, and I'm sure it is even stranger to Walliser people since the purest/oldest Walliser/Walser dialects are spoken in the remote valleys of the Wallis (in Italy/Ticino, the Walser language is fading into an old peoples' talk—like the Swiss French patois).
It seems to me that the "Walser language" is an internet myth produced by the ethnologue report. My faith in the ethnologue report is a little bit restored by the fact that the entry on Alemannic mentions Valserisch as an Alemannic dialect. J. 'mach' wust 18:45, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sure, I agree we don't disagree any more. I also based myself on what seems to be the consensus among Swiss linguists. Thanks for the link. A nice page, and surprisingly a page both of us can use for supporting our points of view! It clearly is a Walser page, but it makes no big deal of Walser identity and includes the Walliser in many respects (e.g. in the Internationalen Vereinigung für Walsertum). :) J. 'mach' wust 06:47, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Noemi

I've got one question regarding the redirect for the article Noemi. Are you sure this is correct translation? In Douay-Rheims Bible as well as King James version the name Noemi is connected with somebody different than Naamah. Do you think I could delete the redirect, write an article about Noemi and possibly add disambig to the page pointing to Naamah? --Bebenko 12:17, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have to correct myself. I found Naomi (Tanakh) to be the article I wanted to write.
  • According to the first reference I mentioned, Noemi should be the name
  • according to the second, Naomi is right

Do you know, as linguist, which one is right? Thanks. -- Bebenko 12:48, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Bebenko. Frankly, I always thought that Noemi and Naomi were two forms of one and the same Biblical name, both perfectly valid English forms of the name. My assumption was that one form (Noemi) was based on the Latin tradition, which is based on the Greek tradition, based in turn on the Aramaic tradition, while the other form (Naomi) was taken into English directly from the Hebrew tradition. There are many other such doublets of Biblical names in English and I would not presume to favor one over the other. However, according to the Wikipedia, Noemi is a variant form of Naamah and a totally different name than Naomi. So, I don't know what to tell you. I must confess my ignorance in matters of Biblical exegesis. Pasquale 17:56, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Noric language?

Ciao Pasquale, Since you created the article Noric language, can you provide some sources for it? As I mention on its talk page, none of the sources on Celtic languages I've consulted mention it. Is it actually attested, or does one simply assume that the inhabitants of Noricum must have spoken something, and that it was probably Celtic? Thanks, --Angr/tɔk tə mi 8 July 2005 21:44 (UTC)

Thanks Pasquale, I'll see if I can track down Rmhermen and see what he knows on the matter! --Angr/tɔk tə mi 9 July 2005 06:32 (UTC)
Can you add sources for the opinion that Lepontic might not be Celtic? All the sources I can find say it's unambiguously Celtic and extremely close to Gaulish. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 9 July 2005 19:08 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining all that to me! Maybe you could add a source or two to the Lepontic language article so that readers know that one sentence isn't coming out of left field. But also I think there might be some terminology confusion going on: would you agree the non-Latin language of the Todi inscription is a Celtic language closely related to Gaulish? It sure looks like it to me, but maybe you'd call it Cisalpine Gaulish and not Lepontic. Paul Russell in An Introduction to the Celtic Languages (p. 6), though, calls it Lepontic. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 08:07, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made Noric language a redirect to Noricum. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 22:04, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you consider me a Johnny-come-lately messing up your carefully crafted contributions. You didn't seem to have any particular attachment to Noric language so I thought you wouldn't mind me making a redirect. As for Lepontic language, I have no emotional investment at all in the question of whether there is one language here (a Celtic language variously called Lepontic or Cisalpine Gaulish) or two (a non-Celtic language related to Ligurian called Lepontic, and a Celtic language called Cisalpine Gaulish). All I care about on the matter is that if both views are currently represented in the published literature, both views are mentioned in the Lepontic language article, with sources cited for each. In Eska and Evans's chapter on Continental Celtic in The Celtic Languages (Routledge 1993), they mention Whatmough 1933 and Pisani 1964 as exponents of the view that Lepontic is related to Ligurian, so I'm adding those two refs to Lepontic language. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 09:21, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Ah, I'm glad I'm not the one your bitterness is direct at! Anyway, I have restored the original wording at Ligurian language, but I've also added an {{Unsourced}} tag because it really does need sources added. Ideally, the article should one day say: "Researchers A, B, and C have argued Ligurian is an Indo-European language for the following reasons: (blah, blah, blah). Researchers X, Y, and Z, on the other hand, have argued it is not Indo-European for the following reasons: (blah, blah, blah)." That way if anons come along and change it, you can challenge them to cite their sources, and remove their edits with impunity if they don't. And of course the same goes for the two sides of the Lepontic question: "Lejeune and Eska argue that the earliest Lepontic inscriptions are in a Celtic (but non-Gaulish) language, which became more similar to Gaulish after the Gaulish invasion of northern Italy in the 4th century BC [or whatever it is exactly they argue; I'm just guessing here], while Whatmough and Pisani [and whoever else] argue that Lepontic is not Celtic at all, but rather related to Ligurian, and is a completely different language from the Cisalphine Gaulish found after the 4th century." BTW, in case you haven't noticed, Nantonos has put a lot of the things you said about Lepontic and Ligurian on Talk:Ligurian language so that interested parties can read it even if they don't happen across my talk page. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 20:45, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gaulish

To clarify, I was referring to 'The Dialects of Ancient Gaul' and it was the idea that there were large numbers of regional dialects in Gaulish that I was describing as discredited. --Nantonos 03:14, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Zero-width spaces

I have noticed that you removed zero-width spaces intended to allow long hyphenated words to be divided at the end of the line from list of European regions with alternative names. Out of curiosity, what kind of problems does their presence trigger? -- Naive cynic 18:51, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Naive, the reason why I removed those "zero-width space" characters is that, on a normal laptop PC such as mine, which includes lots of character sets needed to display plenty of exotic languages (but not all), those characters are displayed as boxes (i.e. unrecognizable characters) after the hyphens. In my very standard, very run-of-the-mill display, those long hyphenated words are divided anyway, without needing those special characters. Since my PC is quite an average one, I have to assume lots of users will be experiencing the same problem, i.e. displaying those boxes after the hyphens, so it seemed practical to remove them. I hope you will agree. Pasquale 21:25, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I have investigated this problem briefly. It seems that, with an exception of fonts for some Asian scripts, Microsoft doesn't include support for zero-width spaces in fonts distributed with Windows. Oh well... -- Naive cynic 07:08, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Would a zero-width non-joiner serve the same purpose? --Nantonos 21:33, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
No, zero-width non-joiner prevents the characters around it from forming a ligature, but it has no effect on word boundaries. Besides, ZWNJ shares a similar level of non-support with ZWS. · Naive cynic · 10:12, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proto-Celtic *φ

Hi Pasquale, the main reason for positing *φ rather than *h or zero as the (early) PC outcome of PIE *p is its behavior in consonant clusters. PIE *pt and *ps show up as [xt] and [xs] in attested Celtic languages, which is more likely to come from an earlier [φt] and [φs] than from [ht] and [hs]. Also word-initial *sp- shows up in Brythonic as [f] (Welsh ffêr "ankle" < *speret-) and in Old Irish as [s] in unlenited and [f] in lenited position (seir "heel" vs. dí pheirid "two heels"). The Old Irish outcome is the same as that of original *sw- (siur "sister" vs. a phiur "his sister" < *swesor-), but the Brythonic outcomes of *sw- and *sp- are different (*sw- becomes Brythonic [xw] as in chwaer "sister"). So it seems best to reconstruct early PC with *φ for all PIE *p, and late PC in which *φ has become zero (presumably through a stage [h], possibly but not necessarily attested in Latin spellings) word-initially and intervocalically, *φ has become [x] before obstruents, and initial *sφ- remained (or at least remained distinct from both *s- and *sw-) until after the breakup of Proto-Insular Celtic. At Lusitanian language it is argued that the retention of *p in PORCOM proves Lus. can't be Celtic, but I think it's remotely possible that it's just a spelling of [φorkom] and that Lusitanian broke off from the other Celtic langs before *φ > *h. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 19:44, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, *φ could just as easily have been *f; there's nothing really to decide between them. I'm not saying I necessarily believe PORCOM was pronounced [φorkom], just that it's not impossible. If your language has /φ/ but no /p/ or /f/ and you adopt a writing system from a language that has P and F but no symbol for /φ/, I bet each letter has an equally good chance of being the one you pick. Maybe especially if you have the cluster /sφ-/ and the language whose writing system you're borrowing has words with SP- but none with SF-. Anyway, I'm not arguing in favor of this position, merely saying that I think that PORCOM isn't definitive evidence Lusitanian is non-Celtic, because PORCOM doesn't have to mean [porkom]. As for *gwh being *gw, it's because Welsh shows [gw] and Irish shows [g] + vowel rounding in words like W. gweddi, O.Ir. guide "prayer" < *gwhedh- and W. gwanu, O.Ir.gonaid "to wound" < *gwhen-. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 21:05, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Apparently there's no evidence of *sp- in Continental Celtic. There aren't that many Celtic words starting with PIE sp- in the first place; the "heel/ankle" word seems to be the best one, and it's not surprising if that word is unattested in Gaulish and Celtiberian. As for the development of sp- itself, Kim McCone (Towards a relative chronology of ancient and medieval Celtic sound change, ISBN 0901519405, p. 45) says:
In the virtually certain event that φ > Ø occurred everywhere else before the end of Proto-Celtic, it would be strange indeed if φ survived as a separate phoneme after s- in a mere handful of words for centuries longer until after the separation of British and Irish. The obvious solution is to postulate that s impeded the change of a following p to φ rather as the shift p > f did not take place after s in Germanic.... The general loss of φ would thus not have affected sp- and survival of this cluster until after the end of Insular Celtic is unproblematical, since lack of a voiced/voiceless opposition in stops after s- in Celtic would entail analysis of [p] in this environment as an allophone of /b/.... Thereafter we simply need to posit sp- > sw- in Irish and > f- in British.
In fact, in P-Celtic the [p] of sp- would have been interpreted as /p/ < *kw anyway. sp > f in Brythonic is supported independently by the Aspiration Mutation, by which initial p is mutated to ph after words formerly ending in s. One other point, the PC reflex of PIE *p must have been labial (not [h]) because it went to [w] between a back vowel and n in OIr. súan, MW hun "sleep" < *sōnos < *suwnos < *suφnos < *supnos and OIr. cúan "harbor" < *kōnos < *kawnos < *kaφnos < *kapnos. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 08:02, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
The argument from the Aspirate Mutation was mine, not McCone's, so you have to blame me for it, not him! But my point was, [sp] would have to be interpreted as /sb/ only in Q languages; in P languages it could be interpreted as /sp/ and therefore treated the same as /s#p/ (provided *kw > *p preceded Spirantization in Brythonic, which seems likely). The problem with positing a "Gallo-Brittonic" sound change *gw > *w followed by a Brythonic *w > *gw in word-intial position is that PC *gw and *w stay distinct in word-internal intervocalic position in Brythonic. PC *w remains [w], but PC *gw becomes [v] in Welsh deifio "burn" < PC *degw- < PIE *dhegwh- and nyf "snow" < PC *snigw- < PIE *snigwh- (unlikely to be a Latin loanword). So PC *gw and *w were still distinct, at least word-internally, in Proto-Brythonic, so it doesn't provide evidence for a "Proto-P-Celtic" after all. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 19:46, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "So called Moldovan language" and romanian

Hello Pasquale!

I would like in the most polite manner to have a look on the Moldovan_language where I have added some edits on the talk page [[2]]

The truth is that "Moldovan" doesn't exist. It's about romanian with a different name. The fact is that is identical with romanian. Romanian is a latin language like french, italian, spanish, portuguese. The Soviet propaganda and the russians experts since 1812 tried to make a difference on political reasons. Even internationally at the most official level is recognized that "so called moldovan" is nothing else but romanian. [[3]] Please feel free to express your opinion!  Bonaparte  talk & contribs

Yes Pasquale, you are right. Thank you so much. You may take part of the action on a vandalism report, see the link. [[4]]  Bonaparte  talk & contribs
Hi Pasquale,

thank you so much for your efforts. Actually I would like to stress some facts:

  • there is no unitary Moldovan language
  • Romanian dialects are 4 (four): Daco-Romanian (Romanian); Aromanian; Megleno-Romanian; Istro-romanian.

As you said Romanian is precisely one language. The dialectal variation (languages spoken in different regions of Romania like Oltenia, Muntenia, Transylvania, Moldova) what you ment may be called romanian with some forced terms of "regionalism" words but since they are identical we cann't say that they are dialects.

I would like you to state the truth that there exists no unitary Moldovan language (even politically was officially declared official between 1991 and 1994 "Romanian" as the official language of Moldova), is the same latin language with a different name. Mă bucur că îţi place foarte mult limba romînǎ. Bonaparte  talk & contribs

Sorry Pasquale but not involving in this is just the same as you agree with thess lies. If you as linguist you don't involve who must then?  Bonaparte  talk & contribs
Thank you Pasquale, you are very kind. I will base on your help when the times comes :). Bonaparte  talk & contribs
Now it would be great to have also your opinion as linguist on the page Talk:Moldovan language. Multumesc anticipat. Bonaparte  talk & contribs

[edit] Changes to the Napolitano article

Hi Pasquale,

thanks for fixing English in the Napolitano article. I've much appreciated it. I'm not a native English speaker. But I'm Italian and Neapolitan. So I would like to point out that:

  • The Italian Wikipedia is not an authority on Neapolitan spelling (or for that matters, Italian spelling). I assure you that Neapolitan is a language on its own. "Cupià" and "Cupia’" are both used, but "cupia’" is the spelling used for the book (I would not argue about which one is better in general).
  • I know that "to etc." means *also* "in order to etc." but it also is the simple infinitive form. I wanted to avoid it to be confused for the latter, which in Neapolitan would be "cupia'" (without "pe", which BTW is most commonly written "pe'"). That's also the reason why I changed "translates to" to "translates as": "translates *to* in order *to*" is quite cacophonous :) It doesn't matter now, as all references to the book have been removed, but if "translates to" is the only correct form I would have probably written "it may translate to" (which is better anyway, as there are various translation choices).

(please, reply here, so that the discussion is not fragmented across different pages)

Regards, --Gennaro Prota (talk) 18:38, 13 May 2006 (UTC)


Ciao ho risposto alla tua risposta sulla mia talk page :) Ti prego di aggiungerla alla tua watch-list così manteniamo l'intera discussione in un unico posto (c'era una nota in piccolo, nel messaggio sopra, che diceva di continuare qua, per lo stesso motivo; l'importante è non sbrandellare la conversazione su due pagine diverse). A proposito, ho visto che ti occupi di localizzazione di software. Io sono un programmatore C++. Magari ci incontreremo qualche volta —e io non saprò mai che tu sei Pasquale! ;) --Gennaro Prota (talk) 00:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ronline for Admin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Ronline and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship#Ronline . I have nominated Ronline to be Administrator for English Wikipedia. Let's vote for him! Bonaparte  talk & contribs

[edit] Alexander for Admin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Alexander_007 ,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship#Alexander_007 . I've nominated User:Alexander_007 as admin. Let's vote for him! -- Bonaparte talk & contribs 14:46, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gaitelgrima

I noticed that you added the tidbit that the Gaitelgrima who was a daughter of Guaimar III was also called Altrude. While this squares with what I know, I was wondering if you knew something I didn't. Did this Gaitelgrima/Altrude really marry both Drogo and Humphrey in succession? Is she the mother of Abelard and Herman by Humphrey and of Richard of Salerno by Drogo? Is the said Richard even Drogo's son at all? If you can't answer any of these questions, no matter: most scholarly works I've read apparently can't answer them either. Srnec 04:57, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Last message about the location of Georgia

Dear Pasquale,
I know that we have stopped discussing this issue, but I just have to comment on yout post on Kober's wall. You tried to prove that Kober's notes that 70% of Georgia being in Europe were incorrect. Well, if you simply go to the world atlas web site, the web places Georgia and whole Caucasus region in Europe. Image:Eunewneb.gif Image:Asnewzzz.gif


The web site does not place Georgia is Asia at all. In, fact it does place Turkey in Asia, even though Turkey is about to become a part of European Union.

In addition, you cited National Geographic Society, which is basically an US based organization. It would be nice to consult some European points of view about the continent. The profile of Georgia on the BBC web site tells us that Georgia is fully part of Europe. So, please let us just end the argumet, because I am willing to compromise and I think that Eurasia is also a correct geographic term to use in the article, when it really should be Europe. Sosomk 00:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Fine. Thank you for pasting these two maps, by the way. I find them both fascinating. The second one puts European Russia in Asia, and both put Cyprus in Europe and the Sinai Peninsula in Africa. Oh, well! Obviously, this is all a matter of opinion, not of science. Pasquale 19:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AfD:Names of European cities in different languages

I notice you've contributed in the past to Names of European cities in different languages and its successor pages. There are proposals to delete these articles and the discussions at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Names of European cities in different languages, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Names of Asian cities in different languages, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Names of African cities in different languages might interest you. AjaxSmack 18:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. Pasquale 21:30, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, these articles have been deleted, despite your good argumentation and despite a 25:11 majority of keep votes. Please see User talk:Mackensen for background. I'm personally not enough attached to them to initiate a Deletion Review on my own, but I'd certainly support one if others are interested. Your thoughts? Fut.Perf. ? 11:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I contacted a bunch on admins on this and only one has responded thus far; he is putting the matter on deletion review. When it comes up, I hope that you will repeat the reasons you thought these articles should be kept. Golly, we have articles on every two-a-penny pokeman creature, but this is unencyclopedic? Carlossuarez46 19:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I have asked the admin User:Dbiv to keep you and User:Future Perfect at Sunrise in the loop. He seems like he's an upright person and he'll probably notify us when the review is going to be so we can chime in. Meanwhile I am seriously considering becoming an admin to stop these sorts of shenanigans. Carlossuarez46 19:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree, Carlos. I have seen other admins behave in a similar abusive fashion before. While most admins are fair-minded and considerate, there is a small number of them out there who are out of control and basically think they can do whatever they want. And other admins are wary of intervening. My opinion is that a severe reprimand is called for here, as well as User:Mackensen's demotion from admin, if not his expulsion from the Wikipedia. Pasquale 19:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh the irony...
Deletion Review is going on now: see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2006 June 28#Names of cities in different languages. David | Talk 19:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Have your say at [[5]] pass it along to others. Carlossuarez46 20:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I had no idea that I was such a rogue admin. Are you seriously suggesting that I need to be kicked off the project for closing a deletion debate? Mackensen (talk) 20:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that was overreacted a bit, I think. But I must say it's understandable users react with some harshness when their own work and their own - expert! - opinion is brushed aside in such a, well let's call it, rogue fashion. Pasquale, I do think Mackensen's decision was within the bounds of policy, if wrong. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
And let me make clear that I've no problem seeing it overturned. Administrators are accorded wide discretion precisely because there's always room to reconsider. I have no ego at stake here. Mackensen (talk) 22:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What Wikipedia is not

"Perhaps you will now tell me that the Wikipedia is not a place where a specialist's opinion counts at all, but, on the contrary, it's the minority non-specialists that carry the day." Sadly, that is precisely what Wikipedia is not, and is. -- BBlackmoor (talk) 04:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An issue about Georgia

I would like to ask for your attention, because there is a big deal going on on Georgia's talk's page. The argument is to make the Georgia search criterion to result in a redirect to the Georgia (country) page. It is understandable that this is an English wikipedia and most American users prefer a dab page. However, according to statistics more than 2,000 users per month read the article about the country of Georgia and the state of Georgia gets around 800 readers per month. I don't believe that the cultural and historical aspects should be compared of two Georgias, because there is nothing to compare. The country of Georgia is an ancient hitorical country, has more UN world heritage sites than the State of Georgia, has its own language which is different from all the other languages in the world and etc. I don;t want this to turn into a cultural discussion and also making the Georgia search criterion to result in a redirect to the Georgia (country) page is not an underestimation of the beautiful U.S. state of Georgia.
As an European I would like you to participate in voting, if you find time for it.Sosomk 08:32, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. Personally, I agree that Georgia should go directly to the country, with a link to Georgia (disambiguation). This should be the case for any country in the world, in the sense that any country should take precedence over a province or state of another country. I don't believe any other country name has its Wikipedia page identified as "Name of country (country)", so I don't see why that should be the case for Georgia (country). However, I went to the Talk:Georgia page and saw that the poll was closed on 5 July 2006 with "No consensus". Pasquale 22:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] საქართველოს სკაუტური მოძრაობის ორგანიზაცია

Your userpage doesn't say whether you know Georgian or not, but if you do, could you please take a look at Sakartvelos Skauturi Modzraobis Organizatsia? In particular, the scout oath and the scout law still need to be translated and have been waiting for a translation since the beginning of the year. If you don't know enough Georgian to translate them, perhaps you know someone who can? Thank you very much! -Yupik 07:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm very sorry, Yupik, I just don't know enough Georgian to translate an article. Pasquale 21:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Ah, thanks anyways :) -Yupik 06:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


User:Picapica has smiled at you, Pasquale, a chara! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile at others by adding {{subst:smile}}, {{subst:smile2}} or {{subst:smile3}} to their talk page with a friendly message. Happy editing!

[edit] Hello

Dear friend, do you have any background/knowledge of Mycenean language and Linear B? If so, please let me know. All the best. Ldingley 18:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I actually did study Mycenean Greek, the language of the Linear B script, many moons ago, although I studied it in transcription, so I can't say that I have much experience with the script itself. I also studied its significance within the history of the Greek language and its position within the Greek dialects. But why do you ask? Is there some kind of ongoing controversy? Pasquale 19:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello. I always wanted to meet a person who studied Mycenaean Greek so I could share some information and ask couple of questions. I am fascinated with Bronze Age Greece for 12 years now and studied various scripts and languages of the Aegean. The Mycenaean Greek is my main interest. Are you also in any way familiar with the Trojan question in term of their language in 1200 BC? Some scholars claim that they spoke Anatolian language (maybe close to Hittite) however, some claim that Troy (Troy VII) spoke Greek. As I know by that time, only Miletus was the Greek speaking city in Western Anatolia. There is always ongoing controversy in the field of Homeric studies and especially Bronze Age Greece :) Thank you very much for the massage and wishing you all the best. Regards. Ldingley 20:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Wow. Finally a break for my curiosity regarding the question which bothered me for a while. If a little paragraph you have presented all views and possibilities regarding the language of Troy perfectly. I’m very thankful for that. I will research more about Lydian, Phrygian, Daco-Mysian, Lemnian ,Aegean and Pelasgian. But how could Etruscan be in any connection with western Anatolia? And how about the pre-Hittite nation in Hatusa which actually spoke non-Indo European language? Did Mycenaean Greek changed drastically when comparing to classical Greek? I know the endings of the words were different. And finally how would Mycenaeans call Troy? Troia? Ilion or Ilios? Hittites called it Wilusa (Milet ~ Milawanda Achaia ~ Ahiyawa , etc). Ones again thank you very much and it’s an honor to meet a real scholar of the ancient languages. Best regards. Ldingley 17:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Latin place names in Iberia

Hello, Pasquale, I have seen the discussion about the name of that article and I differ from the conclussions about Iberia and Hispania. Briefly:

1-Iberia is ambiguous, due to Caucasian Iberia and Iberia Airlines, and scarcely used in that form, Iberia (the adjective Iberian is more used). Iberian Peninsula is much more unequivocal, and refers to a precise geographical entity.
2-If we choose names with historical connotations, Greek Iberia is much more out of context that Hispania, that is the exclusively Latin-root term for the region. If an historical term is used (and I see that this is not the case), Hispania would be better. So, from my view, Iberia is the worst of the three options for the title.

Therefore, I plead for List of Latin place names in the Iberian Peninsula. What do you think about this change? Greetings, --Garcilaso 13:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lutescan

Hi Pasquale, I see you linked once to Lutescan language. Some of us think that article is a hoax, as no non-Wikipedia sources could be found mentioning that language; could you weigh in at Talk:Lutescan language? Best, — mark ✎ 16:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Isarco

Hi, are you sure it is Isarus or Isarcus? On Latin Wikipedia they show http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hisarcus. Thanks! Icsunonove 17:23, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Isarus or Isarcus are the two variants given in the Latin names of rivers article. I am confident they are correct and actually based on the ancient sources. As for the Latin Wikipedia, I wouldn't place much trust in it. I am sorry to say this, but there is much in the Latin Wikipedia that is more Pig Latin than Latin. In any case, Hisarcus looks like a medieval spelling, embellished with a gratuitous initial h-. This reliable map shows Isarcus. Isarci was also the name of the local Rhaetian tribe. The names are obviously related. Definitely no h- there. Pasquale 16:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ciociaria

Pasquale... Abruzzi or Molise don't include Ciociaria in any sense. It's very wrong. Can you speak Italian? You can translate some citation from it.wiki where i work with many sources. If you can't, i'll try to translate it in English ;-). Ciociaria = Province of Frosinone, or Molise and Abruzzi is a fascist stereotype. See you soon--Wento (talk) 21:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Latin kings template

I clearly do not understand transclusion, as I edited Romulus and Remus although no edit shows up in the edit history, and because I deleted the section, that deleted the template. As it stands it is not the classical list, but someone else's -- eg [[ Latin kings of Alba Longa]] doesn't match the template. I think it was Neddyseagoon who added it, but with no reason given. --Doug Weller (talk) 15:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)