Talk:Passing (gender)

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[edit] Origin

This article was recently split from Passing (sociology) and Talk:Passing (sociology) may contain some previous discussion on this subject. --AliceJMarkham 06:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] gender

you do realise that this should be entitled passing (sex), right? you're not trying to pass as another gender, gender is a social construct, it's chosen by society, you can't do a bloody thing about it. if a female passes for male, she is passing on sex, if she comes off as an effeminate male then her gender has not changed (assuming she was feminine beforehand - most females behave that way). perhaps her goal was to be masculine also, but she is able to behave masculine without trying to pass as male. it really is a shame that gender even exists, just like race and class and any other silly social construct. but if you buy into the gender = sex crap, then you're just perpetuating the problem that trans people have in the first place, i.e. the belief that they cannot express their true "gender" without being the socially acceptable sex for that "gender". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.201.14.27 (talk • contribs) 02:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

As a transgendered person, I am disappointed to see such an outdated view espoused as if it is current thinking.
Yes, both passing and gender are social constructs (as are social class and ethnicicty and arguably race and disability). Yes, this is an article on a sociological activity related to those constructs. It is also now generally accepted that to change one's "sex" would require X/Y chromosomal changes and the regression of the development of primary and secondary sexual development of the birth sex and subsequent development of the new sex. Such a process is not currently feasible and unlikely to ever be allowed to be researched for ethical reasons.
The distinction between sex and gender pre-dates the adoption of the term "transgender". Much of the related terminology has changed where appropriate to match the current distinction. For example, what was once referred to as "Sex Reassignment Surgery" (SRS) has been referred to as "Gender Reassignment Surgery" (GRS) for many years now. This article, as it exists, is correctly named based upon current usage and contains reference to "sex" rather than gender where relevant.
Oh, and please remember to sign your posts on talk pages. --AliceJMarkham 21:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
wow, you're not even transgendered, you're a cross-dress, quite a huge difference. unless you simply don't understand the terms, then who knows. it's people like you that perpetuate the misuse of gender instead of sex. gender cannot be changed but by culture: a skirt in scotland is masculine, a skirt in the us is feminine. these are genders, not sexes, it doesn't matter who is wearing them. a single person cannot change this, but they can pass for another sex than the one they were born as. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.162.175.159 (talk • contribs) 22:12, 23 February 2007

ummmmmmmm. this sentence is traumatising to me: "gender is a social construct, it's chosen by society, you can't do a bloody thing about it." there are absolutely many things one can do about the way their body is interpellated. the fact that gender is a social construct makes it necessarily malleable... not fixed. sex is biological and that cannot be changed except with surgery and even then one's chromosomes won't change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.21.60.242 (talk • contribs) 02:41, 16 December 2006

you've essentially got a strawman argument here. gender is a social construct that a single person cannot change. if one changes their body in a temporary way in order to pass as the opposite sex, they are not changing the social construct and are actually buying into the social order of things. a social construct is chosen by society, not the individual. you don't have to be male to be masculine, nor female to be feminine. as such, a masculine male acting feminine does not indicate anything about him passing, he could simply be knitting. and if a masculine female wears a dress? it says nothing of passing, she may be an obvious female no matter how well she binds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.162.175.159 (talk • contribs) 23:12, 22 February 2007
A lot of stuff that you'll see written in wiki talk pages can be insulting and/or traumatising. That's reality.
The concept of gender is much a social construct as clothing. Some of us are lucky enough to be able to wear gender like clothing and change at will. :)
Sex is biological and unchanging. What was once commonly referred to as a sex change has been more commonly referred to as gender reassignment for some time. Surgery will not change sex as the surgeon cannot cut and splice the Y chromosomes to be X or vise versa.
Oh, and please remember to sign your posts on talk pages. --AliceJMarkham 21:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] That woman in the army

How could anyone not notice the breasts, complete with nipples, protuding out of her unifrom? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.109.185.159 (talk) 21:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

Well, the photo that commonly circulates is actually doctored (sad but true). The lighting and shadows has been changed to emphasize the breasts. Glamrockboy (talk) 09:32, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gender-bait

copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies/Archive 11#Gender-bait

Hi. We're wondering (as part of the improvements to the William Gibson articles) if there is somewhere appropriate that the article Gender-bait could be best merged to? "...males who represent themselves as females online to elicit a positive response from other males". Is there a more official/standard term for this? Or is it already a recognized/notable term by itself, that warrants expansion instead of merging? Thanks for any suggestions :) --Quiddity (talk) 18:58, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The best I can suggest is to create an online section in the article Passing (gender). I'm not sure enough of the context to know whether that is the right place to put it. --AliceJMarkham 00:30, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
end copy
Does that sound good? or are there any other suggestions from this page's editors? Thanks :) -- Quiddity (talk) 05:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I guess now we'll wait a couple of months to see if anyone else is even watching this page... :p
As I said before, I don't know enough about the context to know if it fits here. If it is about convincing others that you are te gender that you claim to be, with no ulterior motives such as trying to befriend someone online in order to convince them to meet you, it is analogous to passing in the physical sense. In that case, the word bait doesn't seem to make sense to me. If, however, the goal is to trick people for ulterior motives, then it isn't analogous to passing and is more related to predatory stalking. The word bait gives me the impression that the latter is meant. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 06:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that gender-bait fits here at all, it would be better suited to merge with a subject about online harassment. It has nothing to do with transgender issues, so it would be a bit innappropriate to place it here. Also, "Passing" has to do with face-to-face situations, not online. Glamrockboy (talk) 09:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC) 09:28, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
As a belated followup, that all sounds clear. We'll leave gender-bait as a standalone article for now, and encourage expansion (or possible renaming, see talkpage). Thanks for your advice :) -- Quiddity (talk) 01:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)