Talk:Pascual Orozco

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[edit] Death

I have removed this redundant paragraph:

  • He led a small guerilla band in northern Mexico, making occasional raids across the US border. After raiding a ranch his band was pursued by Texas Rangers. Orozco was shot and killed; it was not until afterwards that his pursuers discovered he was anything other than a common bandit.

Nonetheless some info should be merged with the article's paragraph descibing the incident. --Tycho 19:45, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Recently added (or reworded): "The Mexican version asserts that Orozco died trying to resist the robbery of his own horses by Love and his men." I know this is widely believed, and it might well be true, but what makes this "The Mexican version"? Is there an official Mexican government assertion of this? If so, great, cite it. Otherwise, this should probably read "It is widely believed in Mexico…" And even that could use citation. As could the official U.S. version. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:52, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rurales

When Díaz presented his resignation, Orozco was named commander of the Rurales in Chihuahua and governor candidate for Club Independiente Chihuahuense, an antagonistic organization to Francisco I. Madero.

What are the Rurales? — J3ff 10:18, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Members of the policía rural federal. –Hajor 14:43, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Relatives

Are there any citations for the following individuals and family branches? Names and lifetimes of his relatives are useful, if cited from somewhere, but because these were added anonymously without comment, I'd really like to see some citation:

  • We have citation [1] for his parents names, but not for the date (1852 - 1948); also, that date is in there in a way that seems to apply to both parents, who presumably would not have had the same birth and death year.
  • Aitana Vazquez Armendaraz (1821 - 1906)
  • Armendaraz family from Navarre, Pamplona, Spain
  • Don Fransisco Vazquez de Molinar' (1826 - 1888) was decendent from the Spanish Hapsburg family in Burgos, Spain
  • Dora Vazquez Molinar' Gonzalez (1879 - 1956) and husband, Carlos Diaz-Ferrales Gonzalez (1878 - 1953)

-- Jmabel | Talk 03:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Responding in reference to citation for family names and dates; from Pascual's mothers family, these ancestors's names, births and deaths came from a family diary begun in 1832 in Spanish. My father translated and read the names and dates to me as I wrote them down in 1974. I have written the names and dates on existing pictures that have been handed down to me. I have been unsuccessful of late in obtaining the diary for copy or translation. My father's mother, Teodora Vazquez Molinar Gonzalez was close to Pasqual as their mothers were sisters. DonDeigo 18:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Date Error

Orozco and Villa first demonstrated open rebellion against Madero and his regime by bursting into a cabinet meeting on 13 May 1913.

This has to be wrong. It couldn't have happened on that date in 1913, 1912, or 1913. Madero wasn't in office in office in May 13 1911, and he was murdered on Feb 22,1913. Orozco began his rebellion in March 1912, so by May 1912 he was in exile. Also, he wouldn't have done this accompanied by Villa: Villa fought against the orozquistas. Unless someone wants to correct this, I'm going to take it out. Tubezone 04:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Is the picture of Mr. Orozco portrayed in this article the best you can do? I have seen several pictures of him in a suit, white collar and tie, reflecting the respected businessman he was, and not the common bandet you portray with that propaganda poster. donDeigo

First thing, the "picture" is a ballad praising Orozco, it reads as follows: Brave fighter and faithful lover, you tear off the mask of the tyrant! The thankful and delirious people shake your ardent hand! To the unbeaten General Pascual Orozco!. Second, we're limited here to using public domain images, so there aren't a lot of choices. Tubezone 03:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I would insert the picture of him in a suit, regardless of what the song's lyrics are, he was buried in a Mexican General's uniform, and was a successful, respected businessman, a decendent from the Hapsburg Imperial family from Burgos, Spain...I would think he would want to be remembered as a gentleman and a businessman, not a romanticized marter dressed in pean, bandet clothing. If I knew how to do it, I would incert the picture myself.. donDeigo

He was also conspiring with Germans and Victoriano Huerta for a counter-revolution, when he got killed. The picture was one printed in a Mexican newspaper praising his exploits, I think it's fair enough. Frankly, I don't care how he'd like to be remembered. Tubezone 07:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Your negative comments display a lack of personal and historical knowledge, weather you like it or not, Mr. Orozco was a leader, an astute businessman, a believer in the rights of working people and free enterprise. Referring to him as a common bandet is absurd. donDeigo

No one is referring to him as a common bandit, but this is an encyclopedia article, not a eulogy. Also, unless references are provided to document the purported Habsburg lineage, I'm taking it out. Besides, I really don't see how it's pertinent, or why a Mexican would think there's any prestige in being related to a people who exploited his own country. Heck, Villa had all the Spaniards in Chihuahua deported. Tubezone 01:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm working on obtaining the actual documentation of Orozco's lineage (it's within my family) for your citation. you don't really understand and you believe too many unvalidated newspaper clippings, obsolete Mexican accounts, biased American views and haven't talked / researched the right people to get the facts. As Orozco has lineage to both houses of Habsburgs, and has a Criollo background, became an astute businessman in Chihuahua, and is a central figure in a controversial war that ocurred almost 100 years ago, on land that will someday be fought over again, I would say any research findings on this individual are pertinent.....look how just recently the myth of the British as being of Nordic and Anglo-Saxon lineage has been disprooved through DNA...they are 75% Spanish ...How do you think Orozco had communications with the Germans? it wasn't because of his bandaleros, mustasch, and that folk song..... and don't respond so negatively , this is Wiki and a discussion page DonDeigo 18:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Decena Trágica

The following was removed with an edit summary that said it was wrong chronologically. It certainly was not in the right place in the article, but was it inaccurate? If not, it just be moved to the correct point in the narrative. If the errors are minor, then they should be identified and the bulk of it restored.

Huerta retuned to Mexico City strengthened by his agreement with Orozco, and a short time later he led the La decena tragica (Ten Tragic Days) in which Félix Díaz (the dictator's nephew), Orozco, Bernardo Reyes, and Huerta who had all once been fierce enemies joined forces in February 1913 and overthrew and assassinated President Madero. Huerta's coup-government was short-lived, however, and in July 1913, he was forced into exile: first England, then Spain, and then the USA. There he met up again with Orozco, and the two began to plan a new rebellion at El Paso, but they were placed under house arrest by the U.S. government.

- Jmabel | Talk 01:13, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The material I am familiar with indicates that Orozco did not arrive in Mexico City until after La decena tragica was over (he had been fighting against the Madero government, if he'd been there, he would have been in jail with Reyes and Diaz). The stuff about Huerta going into exile is correct, and is covered in the Huerta article. Tubezone 01:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)