Template talk:Paris Metropolitan Area

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Templates for deletion This template was considered for deletion on 2007 November 20. The result of the discussion was to keep.

Contents

[edit] Purpose of this template

What is the purpose of this template ? When I read about Aulnay-sous-Bois, do I really need this list of all cities in Île-de-France which takes so much space on the page? I may want a list of the communes immediately sourrounding Aulnay, but nothing more. IMHO, the content of this template should be moved to a separate article like List of communes in the metropolitan area of Paris, which in turn could be linked from all concerned communes. Thbz 14:37, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Already answered on Talk:Paris. Also, please check the article about Addisson, a suburb of Chicago. As you can see, the templates at the bottom of the Addisson article are even longer than in the case of Aulnay-Sous-Bois. I think the problem is not the length of the template, but the length of the article. If you think the template takes too much space on the page, it is simply because there is very little in the article itself. Just add more info about Aulnay-sous-Bois. Most of these communes articles are just stub that need to be expanded. Hardouin 15:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm surprised to see this thing actually has a talk page. Nothing was answered per se - you say simply "readers want to know" as a justification without providing any arguments that they do. For the third time today: Chicago's "metropolitan area", nor any other in the US (and most of the rest of the world for that matter) can effectively be compared with Paris' because the criteria contriving them, in scope nor in volume, is nowhere near the same. I will never tire of pointing this out. IMHO this exaggeration is the whole point of Hardouin's "aire urbaine" obsession - and it is founded on desire, not truth. If you cannot explain the truth of what the AU is (and isn't!) in the same page that you use it in, then don't, because presented as it is, as a direct translation of "metropolitan area", it is misleading. ThePromenader 19:46, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The logo

I removed the logo for the following reasons:

  • It is an official logo of an institution, the Mairie de Paris. Usage of this logo is not allowed by Wikipedia rules for something else than the Mairie. Read the copyright information at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ParisLogo.jpg for more details. Even this kind of "fair use" is widely debated in Wikipedia. I wonder if we should not also follow French copyright rules (which are quite strict and do not accept "fair use"), since this logo belongs to a French organization.
  • Indeed, this logo relates only to the Mairie, i.e the administration of Paris, and to nothing else. Certainly not to the towns around Paris which this template is dedicated to. In Paris you will see this logo on documents published by or related to the Mairie, or on organizations that belong to the Mairie.

An image of the Eiffel tower or any other, non-proprietary, image that symbolizes Paris in the world may be used instead. Thbz 22:04, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I have replied at Talk:Paris, have a look. About copyright rules, you are not totally right. The image used by the template is not the logo of the city of Paris. It is only a fragment of the logo of the city of Paris, the official logo is much larger and includes other elements, notably the name "Mairie de Paris". That fragment is itself but a stylized version of the traditional coat of arms of the city, which is public domain, so I think it could be considered fair use. Hardouin 01:02, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
And by the way, if you have any creative skills, feel free to create your own stylized version of the traditional coat of arms of Paris. That way there will be no copyright issues at all. Hardouin 01:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Then why did you insert the "logo" template in the image description? Read again that image description: "It is believed that the use of low-resolution images of logos to illustrate the corporation, sports team, or organization in question on the English-language Wikipedia, hosted on servers in the United States by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation, qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law. Any other uses of this image, on Wikipedia or elsewhere, may be copyright infringement." A part of an image is protected by the same copyright laws as the whole image itself when it's the most important and recognizable part.
Maybe I'll try to use Gimp to provide some alternative :) Thbz 09:18, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Gimp? What is that? or who is that? I have no clue. About the logo tag, you are totally right, I could have used the pulic domain tag instead. Back a few months ago, there was no logo tag, so people most often used public domain tags when they uploaded coat of arms or logos or flags. This time I wanted to be extra careful with all the tag issues going on on Wikipedia at the moment. Maybe another tag would be appropriate. They should create a coat of arms (blason) tag. Hardouin 11:59, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

My creative skills are very small, but I made an attempt at providing an alternate image that everybody will understand. Tell me what you think of it. Feel free to remove it if you don't like it :) (Gimp is an open-source clone of Photoshop.) Thbz 20:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

The fair use guidelines are what we have to abide by even though we often would like not to! VK35 18:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title change

This infobox is about the metropolitan area and not the urban area of Paris. There's a difference between an urban area and a metropolitan area. An urban area is a central city and its contiguous built-up suburbs whereas a metropolitan area also includes satellite cities separated by countryside in between. There are communes in the list that are satellite cities separated from the urban area of Paris by countryside, such as Meaux for example. Be reasonable for a change and stop confusing definitions for people. Do you realize what you're doing? Do you mean the Paris urban area contains 12 million people?? Hardouin 15:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no "Paris metropolitan area" usable here - the term "metropolitan area" is not at all the official translation of "aire urbaine" as indicated by the INSEE: the official translation for "aire urbaine" is "urban area" as indicated in the references provided in urban area and Talk:Paris urban area. It is not "your" definitions that count here - it's the official ones. Give us a break please. THEPROMENADER 18:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This Template is pointless.

First off, this template does not (and cannot) include every commune in the Paris aire urbaine (urban area) - contrary to what its title says it is. If anything, "communes in the Paris aire urbaine" should be a category.

In addition, this template's only purpose (and reason for existence) seems to be as a tool to promote Hardouin's insane theory that Paris is as big as the Île-de-France (or that the Paris aire urbaine is Paris) - I remember it originally had the Paris city logo on it but was told to remove it. It has also been placed into many articles concerning Paris quarters and Paris subjects - many of them irrelevent to this template - for reasons none to clear to the reader.

For all of the above reasons I think this template is pointless and misleading if used incorrectly, and I think it should be deleted. If perhaps an effort can be made to complete the list of communes it could have some use, but that would mean adding another over a thousand communes. Again, "communes in the Paris aire urbaine ("metropolitan area is an unsuitable and erronous translation - besides, the official translation is "urban area" so this should be used) is a category title, not a template. Please read other similar critiques above. THEPROMENADER 15:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)