Talk:Paraceratherium

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paraceratherium is included in the 2007 Wikipedia for Schools, or is a candidate for inclusion in future versions. Please maintain high quality standards, and make an extra effort to include free images, because non-free images cannot be used on the CDs.

	Mammals Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Mammals, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Mammal-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
Start	This article has been rated as start-class on the quality scale.
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.
	This article has been marked as needing immediate attention.
	It is requested that a picture or pictures be included in this article to improve its quality.
Assessment comments This article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

Isn't the preferred modern name for this giant mammal Indricotherium? The American Museum of Natural History uses Indricotherium. --and so did the recent Discovery Channel's "Walking with Big Scarey Mammals that Roared a Lot," or whatever they called it... --Wetman 20:27, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

As I understand it, the general consensus is that Indricotherium transouralicum Pavlova, 1922 and Baluchitherium grangeri Osborn, 1923 are the same species. So yes, of those two, Indrocotherium clearly has priority. However, the correct genus name may actually be Paraceratherium Forster Cooper, 1911, making the species name Paraceratherium transouralicum (Pavlova, 1922); I don't know enough to clarify that. 68.81.231.127 19:09, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I am not sure, but I saw a reference: (http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/mammals/Iceagemammals.shtml) - perhaps, Baluchitherium is now called Indricotherium.--Bhadani 18:05, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The correct name is Paraceratherium; this is the earliest name, and except in very few cases, the oldest name has priority. See Lucas, S. G. & Sobus, J. C., 1989: The systematics of indricotheres. 358-378 in Prothero, D. R. & Schoch, R. M., (eds.) 1989: The Evolution of Perissodactyls (Oxford University Press, New York, New York & Oxford, 1989) - here is the list of synonyms M Alan Kazlev 5 July 2005 13:43 (UTC)

[edit] Indricotherium and Paraceratherium?

Scince writing the above I came across this comment by Dr Mikael Fortelius in reply to a query on the Discovery Channel Walking with Beasts website

"There is a lot of confusion about which name should be applied to these gigantic rhinoceros-relatives...my own opinion is that these two names (Baluchitherium and Indricotherium) refer to the same animals. In particular I agree with the Russian palaeontologist Vera Gromova that Baluchitherium grangeri, named by her American colleague Henry Fairfield Osborn in 1923, is identical to Indricotherium transouralicum, named by Maria Pavlova in 1922.

Ironically, the fossils from Baluchistan do not seem to belong to the same group, but to the genus Paraceratherium, named by the British palaeontologist Clive Forster Cooper in 1911."

This indicates that both Indricotherium and Paraceratherium (but not Baluchitherium) are valid taxa. I wrote to Dr Fortelius and he replied and said that although he is not an expert on indricotheres, he did think (on the basis of skull proportions) that the genus Indricotherium was valid, contra Lucas and Sobus, but couldn't give any further details.

I then did a google and found the following:

Close relatives to Caenopenes and Aceratheres, the Paraceratheres, produced some of the biggest rhinoceroses which were also the largest terrestrial mammals ever to have lived. The largest, Indricotherium asiaticum 's fossilised remains were discovered in Kazakhstan in central Russia and were dated at 35 million years old. A similar find was made in the Gobi Desert in the early 1920's. Paraceratherium had no horns but formidable tusks and low crowned molars indicated it would have been a browser with a reach not much less than a modern day giraffe.

- The Evolution of the Rhino or Rhinoceros species of the world

Very large rhinoceroses evolved in Central Asia; they were the Paraceratheres. One was Indricotherium (also known as Baluchitherium)...It stood 18 feet tall at the shoulders. Paraceratherium was another and it was also enormous. These rhinoceroses did not have horns; they did have tusks and crowned incisors.

- Neal Robbins - Teleoceras and the Paleontology of Rhinoceroses

Prehistoric ancestors of the rhinoceros include Indricotherium and Paraceratherium, hornless giants that may have weighed up to 20 tons, making them among the largest mammals that ever lived.

- MSN Encarta - Rhinoceros

Indricotherium is an extinct, hornless rhinoceros with relatively long legs. (It used to be known as Baluchitherium). Adults were about 26 feet (8 m) long, 18 feet (5.5 m) tall, and weighed about 17 - 18 tons (16 tonnes). The skull was 4.25 feet (1.3 m) long. It was one of the biggest land animal ever to live on Earth (Paraceratherium was even bigger).

- Enchanted Learning - Paleontology and Geology Glossary: I

(note that the author of "The Evolution of the Rhino or Rhinoceros species of the world" says that Indricotherium was bigger.)

The following also list these two genera as separate:

• long PDF
• (in german, gives list of names of living and estinct rhinos)

At the same time, there are many other sites that give the two as the same (i guess on the basis of Luca and Sobas). So, it looks like there is still no certainty regarding this.

Anyway, I'm inclined now to consider Indricotherium and Paraceratherium as two genera, although i still don't know what the precise differences between them are.

By the way, here's the etymology of Indricotherium:

"as it turns out, Mr. Fortson, the etymologist who asked originally, got back to me with the whole story, which I quote here:

Dear Dr. Waggoner,

Well, it appears that indricotherium gets its name from a fabulous Russian beast called the "indrik," considered the most powerful creature and the father of the animals. Makes sense considering how big the thing was."

sci.bio.paleontology - Jul 20 1999

regarding further details, This site gives two species

• Indricotherium asiaticum
• Indricotherium parvum

(and also some nice pictures  :-)

According to Luca and Sobas, I. parvum is a synonym of Urtinotherium incisivum Indricotheres ; Urtinotherium is i think a little smaller than Indricotherium and Paraceratherium. I need to find my copy of the Luca and Sobas paper, then I'll be able to do a decent write-up.

M Alan Kazlev 8 July 2005 13:13 (UTC)

Here is another article that mentions these two genera as distinct:

Prothero, DR, E. Manning, and CB Hanson, 1986 The phylogeny of the Rhinocerotoidea (Mammalia, Perissodactyla). Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society 87: 341-366.

So I'll make a new stub for Paraceratherium, and revert the one on this page to Indricotherium M Alan Kazlev 9 July 2005 07:59 (UTC)

I'm still puzzled. If Indricotherium is a distinct genus from Paraceratherium, then in which genus should the species transouralicum Pavlova 1922 be placed? If grangeri Osborn 1923 is a synonym of that species, that doesn't, of itself, make Baluchitherium a junior synonym of either genus name. Regardless of taxonomic validity, to which animal does the term "Baluchitherium" apply? Presumably first and foremost to whatever Forster Cooper was looking at when he coined the Latin name, and secondly (because of the long-established Latin use) to grangeri Osborn (= transouralicum Pavlova), which ever genus that species ends up in. It could be that the "Baluchitherium" is actually an Indricotherium, even if the genus name Baluchitherium is a synonym of Paraceratherium...? (Or vice versa.) 193.63.239.165 12:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

If the animal about which most of the facts are true is actually Indricotherium, and not "Baluchitherium" = Paraceratherium, then wouldn't it be better to have most of the information at either Indricotherium or a general article on Indricotheres, and leave only a short article on Baluchitherium explaining that it is an older name? Myopic Bookworm 13:35, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

PS McKenna and Bell (1997) say that I. asiaticum Borissiak 1923 is a junior synonym of I. transouralicum Pavlova 1922, so if I. parvum is actually in Urtinotherium, that leaves us back with only one species in Indricotherium. Since "B. grangeri" is in Indricotherium and "B. osborni" is in Paraceratherium, the article on "Baluchitherium" cannot treat it as though it were the name of a single animal. Myopic Bookworm 13:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I propose, on the basis of Lucas & Sobus (The Systematics of Indricotheres, 1989), which still seems to be the only authority on the systematics of this subfamily, to merge this page with Paraceratherium. In other words: to move essential information from this page to Paraceratherium, link Indricotherium directly to there, and remove this page. Ronald12 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

This article said that Indricotherium weighed about 20 tons. Rhinoceros says that Indricotherium weighed 30 tons. Perhaps somebody who knows which weight is correct can change the wrong number to the right one.Alex Klotz 16:29, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Earlier reconstructions showed the Indricotherium still very rhino-like and compact, and therefore the weight was highly overestimated. Modern reconstructions have shown that it was much more slender and lesser bulky and weighed only about 15.000kg.

[edit] Balook

Should mention of Piers Anthony's book "Balook" be included in the Pop culture section for the wee beastie? Sochwa 01:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know the book, but if it's relevant, sure!  :-) M Alan Kazlev 08:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)