Talk:Pantheon-Assas Paris II University

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[edit] Rankings

"Assas likes to think of itself as a renown law and business university"

Assas is far from being a premier business university. No significant representative of the business community, in France or abroad, graduated from Paris II. Or else, this claim needs to be supported.

IMHO the French counterpart of Ivy League universities (for law and business) is rather Sciences Po, ENA or "Parisian" business schools. Apokrif 02:25, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

None of the institutions you cite deliver law degrees. I would say the phrase "likes to think of itself" balances the statement. No one disputes Assas' No.1 spot for law, it is regarded as the continuance of the Law Faculty of Paris.
"None of the institutions you cite deliver law degrees."

"Assas likes to think of itself as France's Harvard: it is the country's premier law and business university, and a breeding ground for politicians."

Wrong.

Regarding business: Nobody recognizes Assas as a premier business school in the country, would it be for the simple reason that Assas is not a business school stricto sensu, but only has an econ department. And it does not hold comparison to, for instance, Dauphine, job-wise and prestige-wise. Also, the comparison to Harvard does not stand: Harvard only offers graduate business degree and has no undergraduate business school; also, Harvard Business School has continuously been ranked the first business school, Assas hasn't.

Regarding law: Assas is without contest the first law school of the nation, prestige wise. But here again, the comparison with Harvard is not warranted: Harvard has constantly been ranked the second (to Yale) law school over the years. The phrasing needs to be changed. Also, "likes to think of itself" does not balance the statement to the extent that the following statement "it is the country's premier law..." eliminates the internal focus.

Again, Assas is not a breeding ground for politicians; on the reverse, Sciences Po and more so ENA are. Stop trolling please, nobody is gonna think higher of Assas based on a wikipedia page.


http://www.sciences-po.fr/formation/master_scpo/mentions/carrieres_juridiques.htm http://www.sciences-po.fr/formation/master_scpo/mentions/droit_economique.htm http://www.essec.fr/formations-ecole-commerce-paris/masteres-specialises/mastere-droit-affaires-internationales-management Granted, they do not offer a complete program in law as universities do, but I'd say that thee schools are seen, in law and business professions, as X or ECP are seen in engineering. Members of the Conseil d'Etat, who hold the highest legal positions in public service, generally come from ENA (which teaches public law even if, like most public service schools, it does not issue "degrees" to French students) while many students of Ecole de la magistrature students come from Sciences-Po.Apokrif 10:21, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

None of these are law degrees. They are political science degrees or French business school "Masteres" (which is not a French national degree) with an emphasis on law. They do not entitle you to take the bar exam for instance. These schools have no authority with regard to law at all. With regard to business, HEC, ESSEC and ESCP are the best (in that order). Dauphine and Assas would come afterward (in that order). Science-Po is the best path to join the ENA, but is worthless on its own, you will get nowhere with a single degree from this school. The majority of ENM (Ecole Nationale de la Magistrature) students come from Assas. The ENA is the best path to join the Conseil d'Etat (a very tiny group of administrative law magistrates), mostly because no law degree is required for some positions, this carreer is heavily political and your ENA buddies will help you. Nonetheless, the majority of Conseil d'Etat auditeurs went through regular law school, and I do believe that most of the C.E. ENA group did both. Outside of this tiny branch, the ENA is useless for law (albeit prestigious). In sum, you need a law degree to be lawyer (although the Conseil d'Etat does not require one for some positions, and the ENM exam is open to ScPo and ENS grads), and none of the institutions you cite deliver one. Although an additional degree from the schools you cite is well regarded (and, indeed, more and more necessary for the most sought after jobs), it is seen as a bonus, and not your main degree (not getting into Sc-Po or Essec when you have graduated from Assas is seen as has an abject failure). While there are alternative paths, as you underscored, the "royal" one is throught Assas. A study observed that over half of "magic circle lawyers" graduated from Assas. I'll look for it on the internet. Sprotch 15:30, 21 Mar 2005 (GMT)
Did you find the study you were looking for?
Here it is:
As a bonus, Nouvel observateur ranking: http://www.ulb.ac.be/polytech/smana/NOUV_OB/Observateur.htm
Legalease statistics, made on the basis of a survey of Magic Circle Firms in Paris:
86,8% des maîtrises ont été effectuées à Paris :
46,1% à Paris II Assas,
17,9% à Paris I Sorbonne,
11,2% à Paris X Nanterre,
5,8% à Paris XI Sceaux,
2,9% à Paris V Malakoff,
1,7% à Paris IX Dauphine,
0,9% à Paris XII Créteil,
0,3% à Paris XIII Villetaneuse.
13,2% des maîtrises ont été effectuées en province :
2,6% à Montpellier,
2,3% à Aix-Marseille,
1,7% à Rennes,
1,2% à Lyon,
0,9% à Dijon,
0,9% à Nancy,
0,9% à Toulouse,
0,6% à Lille,
0,6% à Rouen,
1,8% ailleurs (Bordeaux, Caen, Clermont-Ferrand, Grenoble, Poitiers, Strasbourg).
Répartition des maîtrises par domaines de droit :
37,8% sont des maîtrises en droit des affaires,
16,7% des maîtrises en droit des affaires et fiscalité,
24,6% des maîtrises en droit privé,
6,5% des maîtrises en droit privé, mention carrières judiciaires,
9,9% des maîtrises en droit international (toutes maîtrises à vocation internationale, y compris les doubles maîtrises droit français/allemand et français/anglais de Paris I Sorbonne, la MSG DAI de Paris IX Dauphine ou le DEJA de Paris X Nanterre),
2,9% des maîtrises en droit public,
1,5% des maîtrises en droit social.



No quotes supports this statement; one could say that Dauphine holds a reputation comparable to some business grandes écoles, and only at the master's level; but there being now law grande école, and Assas not being famous for its econ department at all, the comparison does not stand.

This looks like unsourced POV. Apokrif 12:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Your statements seem unsourced and POV as well. Please evidence them.

"For these reasons it has several peculiarities: while all of France's universities are notoriously understaffed and underbudgeted, Assas gets all the money it needs from the Education Ministry"

This too. Apokrif 12:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

One more ranking: http://www.smbgrecrutement.com/2_classement/6.html
and the full rankings: http://www.smbgrecrutement.com/2_classement/1_1_classement.php?menu=2
Assas tops every subject for which it offers courses.

Wrong; in the ranking you provided, Assas only tops the Droit des Affaires and Droit Social section; on a side note, this ranking has no standard value, such as US news or Financial Times ranking, since very little recruiter are aware of its existence and students do not take it into consideration when making educational choices. Or please, find support fur such claim.

1. The above claim is correct, Assas tops every subject for which it offers courses.
2. An unanimous and continuous stream of rankings cannot be ignored. The SMBG survey is, notably, based on a survey of recruiters. This is further evidenced by the composition of the more prestigious firms.

No it isn't please, check again these websites. Assas does not top every subject for which it offers courses: some of its graduate programs are not even listed. There is no unanimous stream of rankings; SMBG ranking is marginally praised (indeed, only by students in search of lauding of their education). The alleged composition of the most prestigious is completely fictitious. It is well known within the legal industry - and the moST prestigious firms since you invoke them - that the most sought after educational background are double and triple formation (sciences po, HEC/ESSEC/ESCP, law degree from ANYWHERE to complete) and even more so American LLMs. A rapid check on the most prestigious law firms websites will evidence this.

I suggest that you conduct more than a rapid check.

[edit] Libraries

"they both administer the University Library of the Pantheon"

Do you mean Cujas or Sainte-Geneviève ? Apokrif 18:38, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Cujas is admninistered jointly by Paris 1&2.
So the article should say Cujas, not "library of the Pantheon". Apokrif 12:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes indeed. It seems that official name is Bibliothèque interuniversitaire Cujas.

" which is the largest student library in France"

You're sure? I wonder if it's not Sainte-Geneviève (because it covers more topics than Cujas does). Apokrif 12:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Could be.

[edit] GUD

Shouldn't we mention that Assas was (and perhaps still is?) a hotbed of far-right student activism and violence? David.Monniaux 09:51, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

I did mention that Assas was more de droite than most universities in France. It's not a hotbed for anything nowadays. ;) LeoDV 14:39, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

"and while most of France's universities lean culturally and politically to the left, Assas leans to the right."

All this looks like vague unsourced POV. Apokrif 12:49, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Faculté de Droit de Paris

Should alumni of the former Law Faculty be included? Assas was founded as its continuations and certainly considers them to be alumni. Le Pen, for instance, has recently been added as an alumni on wikipedia. Should we also include Mitterand and other Paris Law Faculty alumi? Given that Assas is todays incarnation of this Faculty, I would be in favour. Sprotch 08:39, 06 June 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Assas is not the best

""Assas likes to think of itself as France's Harvard: it is the country's premier law and business university"

No, I don't think so. The Sorbonne and Lyon III are excellent universities as well. Don't forget that only the master degree is excellent. A maitrise, licence ou deug is not something you can be proud of.

These debates are endless. The fact remains that law degrees from this university are better regarded than from any other. But please note the phrase "likes to think of itself", which neutralizes the statement.
Please say who regards them better. Apokrif 12:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Recruiters and students (and as futher evidenced by every ENM and agregation exams) since the University was founded in the early 70s.
besides the Nouvel Obs figures above, could you please cite your sources about what recruiters and students think and what ENM and agreg results are ?
Although individual students might clearly have superior skills and attend any other university, as a whole, the university has consistently been regarded as the best. Please find evidence of the contrary and post it here before imposing your POV on the article.
No, if you want to add info to the article, it's up to you to give the source: Wikipedia:Citing sources . Apokrif 15:50, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

See list of rankings, all featuring Assas as No.1:
Legalease report quoted above
http://www.ulb.ac.be/polytech/smana/NOUV_OB/Observateur.htm
http://www.smbgrecrutement.com/2_classement/6.html
http://www.smbgrecrutement.com/2_classement/7.html
http://www.smbgrecrutement.com/2_classement/11.html
http://forums.figaro-etudiant.com/view.php?site=figaro&bn=figaro_formation&key=1113522114
--Sprotch 16:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

French law school ranking list is something like Paris 2 then Paris 1 and Paris 10 depending on degrees. (based on Paris top lawfirm representation).

On the note, the last year of Master in law is very selective in most law school (5 to 15 % ish in Paris 1,2,5,10) If a DEUG (or Licence 2) in law isnt a very exiting degree, i think u can be proud of a "maitrise" !


On the "grande école" topic: There is no "grande école" in law ! (same for med school btw). But quite a few students graduated from lawschool own a degree from prestigious schools in others field such as business (HEC, ESSEC, ESC ESCP or IAE of Paris Audencia ...), political sciences (Science po Paris, etc), administration school (ENM - ie école nationale de la magistrature - , ENA - école nationale d'administration -, ENI - ie école nationale des impôts = tax school - ), financial and accounting degrees (DECF, DESCF, ...) and/or sometime multiples Masters in law in differents fields or from differents colleges (one from Paris II and another one from Paris X or a LLM from UK or the US).

see also: http://www.smbgrecrutement.com/2_classement/4.html or http://www.smbgrecrutement.com/2_classement/14.html Note that "IAE" = University (IAE of paris = university Paris I)

About the agregation in law (there is 3: public law, private law and history of the law), its a quite different one: you need a phd to attempt it and ofc almost everyone did law school.

To sum up, the "grande école" summa divisio did not exist at all for law-schools and med-schools. Concerning business schools as mentioned above, university Paris II, Université Paris I (including IAE of Paris) and Paris Dauphine rank in top10.


--meto 06:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

Please would the contributor who added the banner explain which section is NPOV. I suspect that it's the laudatory vocabulary. Perhaps it should be removed in favour of a section on "rankings"?

I've created a table. This will allow users to add information as they wish. Codik 23:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)