Talk:Panthay

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Contents

[edit] merge discussion

merge here far less cumbersome name. Chris 04:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

No problem as long as no essential facts lost in that process.
But don't vandalize like deleting the_
Burmese Muslims and
Burmese Indian Muslims
from all of my four articles.
which amounted to help the Ethnic Cleansing attempts of successive Myanmar Military rulers. We could even pull all those responsible people to The Hague with crimes against humanity. (Academically speaking)
(By the original contributer of Panthay Muslims)


In Every Democracy, there must be rules to protect the minority from the tyranny of majority. You can merge but if you delete the headings of Burmese Muslims and Burmese Indian Muslims from the ethnic group, I have to declare that MOBOCRACY ruled Wikipedia.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Darz kkg (talk • contribs) 07:04, 7 February 2007.

I had tried to merge the two articles. Please kindly polish this by fine editing in spelling, grammer etc as my English is not very good.

TQ all. Sorry for the misunderstanding as you all are pushing for the mergers of my three articles. --darzkkg 11:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

This sounds like religious propaganda using political correctness to blackmail contributors. Okkar 02:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language

Why doesn't this article state what language they speak? Badagnani 21:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

because they speak "burmese" only. Okkar 02:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Strange, I've just done some research and the sources say that they speak a Southwest Mandarin dialect, similar to Yunnanese. I don't know what sources you are drawing on. Badagnani 03:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm drawing from personal experience of living and growing up with Panthay neighbours. I dont know what sources and what kind of research you have done to suggest the above. Have you even met a Panthay person? Okkar 07:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Suggested to remove above unrelevent talk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.143.82.170 (talk) 15:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Acknowledgement

Part of this article is taken and revised from The Emergence Of The Panthay Community At Mandalay, by Professor U Maung Maung Lay. He lectured in History and was an Associate Professor in International Relations at Mandalay University. He retired in 1997. The writer is a great-grandson of Yunnan Chinese Colonel Mah Too-tu who had supervised the construction of the Panthay Mosque at Mandalay. He had personally given me permission to freely use this research paper in any place so that all the people could understand and know the history of Panthays.--Darz kkg 14:18, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The Emergence Of The Panthay Community At Mandalay, by Professor U Maung Maung Lay, I mentioned above, was the original research paper’s photocopy I got from him. Recently I found that research paper edited and published in the “Essays given to Than Tun on his 75th birthday” in the book, “Studies in Myanmar History” volume 1, published by Innwa Publishing House (in 1999) . No 136/6, 36 street. Kyauktada T/S. Yangon, Myanmar. This is the first of the three felicitation Volumes by the Colleages and students of Than Tun, retired Professor of History, University of Mandalay, given on his 75th birthday. First published February 1999. Than Tun Diamond Jubilee Publication Committee. 158 (A) Yogi Kyaung Road. Hlaing XI, Yangon, Myanmar.

The Emergence Of The Panthay Community At Mandalay, by Professor U Maung Maung Lay, was on the fifth chapter of the book, from page 91 to 106. I will try to put the references from the book in this article page by page later.--Darz kkg 09:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I known Professor U Maung Maung Lay personally, and he is a respected Professor deep in history. I have heard some of his speeach. And I remember clearly that he talk about Panthay just like that. It was around 2004 at his residence. 18 Oct 2007

[edit] Kindly allow me to remove the admin tags from my articles

Actually, I am not bragging, I had gathered facts from about 150 books for the Muslims in Burma/Myanmar articles in about twenty years. However, as I failed to record properly the source of each information, my first posting in the Wiki was labeled or tagged to be deleted quickly. In addition, it was accused as easy entry or cut and paste article.

Although Wiki editors and administrators are 100% right in their decision but they should made a new ruling to go slow and give some time to the new comers like me. In addition, most of the Wiki editors are busy and made quick but sometimes wrong decisions. Just look at the two blocks on me. Instead of trying to mediate, negotiate, or actually trying to understand the fuss, just made a quick decision in haste. Nevertheless, I must admit that I also have to take the blame as I could not calmly watch my articles butchered and had made a rude fight.

As I could not keep all the reference books with me all the time or have leisure to review all of them immediately, I just go through my article and put the references, on estimation only. At least it works to prevent them from deletion by overenthusiastic editors. I am not telling that they are wrong. They are just doing their jobs according to the Wiki rules and regulations. I was to take the blame for that blunder but I had committed in good faith. And Wiki administrators should review those strict rules of deleting the articles. Just give us some more time.

Please read the following two stubs_

  1. Myanmar ( Burmese ) Democracy and Human Rights online media.
  2. Talk:Myanmar ( Burmese ) Democracy and Human Rights online media

Now, I got hold of some books back (some of my books were left behind in Burma, some borrowed by friends, some from the various university libraries) and I had successfully put in the citations.

It is a blessing in disguise that my articles look original but supported by references. It do not looked as if easy entry, copied from others. For example, as I had stated, my “Anti-Indian Riots” earlier paragraphs' basic facts are taken from Maurice Collis' "Trials in Burma". I lost the book, maybe someone borrowed and never give back) so I could not give the references up to the page level. But I managed to put the citations from "The Muslims of Burma” A study of a minority Group, by Moshe Yegar. At least I could prove that the facts are not my POV only nor my imiginatory fictions only but other third party, a respectable Israel Diplomet, PhD holder’s MSc thesis book. Actually all the citations and references in all my articles are just searched and given.

So, as my three articles below

  1. Islam in Myanmar
  2. Burmese Indians and
  3. Panthay

are supported or cited with appropriate references from

  1. Moshe Yegar’s "The Muslims of Burma”
  2. The Glass Palace Chronicle of the Kings of Burma, translated by Pe Maung Tin and G.H.Luce, Burma Research Society,
  3. History Professor U Maung Maung Lay’s The Emergence Of The Panthay Community At Mandalay, published in the “Essays given to Than Tun on his 75th birthday” in the book, “Studies in Myanmar History” volume 1,.
  4. “Twentieth Anniversary Special Edition of Islam Damma Beikman.” Myanmar Pyi and Islamic religion.The reprint of the records of the lectures given by Pathi U Ko Lay in 1973.
  5. Facts about Anti-Indian Riots are published in_

a.Human Rights Watch
b.Country Reports on Human Rights Practices , Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, by US States Department
c.Amnesty International
d.Office of UN High Commissioner for Human Rights
e.US Department of State, International Religious Freedom Report
f.UK Conservatives’ Human Rights
g.The Persecution of Muslims in Burma by Karen Human Rights Group
h.Butkaew, Samart. "Burmese Indians: The Forgotten Lives", Burma Issues.

The facts I wrote are not my POV only but the POV of multiple above sources. Other Wiki editors could help edit to tone down the style and to look more neutral. But as the successive Myanmar Military rulers had brain washed the Burmese citizens that all Muslims are mixed blooded and recent migrants not worth issuing the citizenship of Myanmar, at least my articles could prove that although there may be some illegal immigrants, most of us are staying for few generations in Myanmar as citizens.

I searched these facts to publish a book on Muslims in Burma/Myanmar. Now I had contributed free of charge to Wiki all of my research for twenty years. Anyway thank you Wiki, Wiki Administrators, Wiki Editors for all the edits, guidance, help preventing vandalism etc. I hereby wish to mention my special thanks to_

  1. Hintha
  2. Kyaw2003
  3. User:Cgilbert76
  4. Chris
  5. Bojokemujee
  6. and all the other editors who had edited my articles.
  7. I hereby request Okkar to come back to Wiki and continue to contribute in Wiki . Although we have difference in opinions, I appreciate his ability and skills.

I wish to assure Kyaw2003 and others that I never meant to insult my fellow Buddhist brothers nor I wish to incite the racial hatred or revenge by writing these articles. But we all need to know _

  1. the origin, roots or ancestors of Burmese Muslims.
  2. the root causes of racial riots.

to avoid the further conflicts.

Actually any one with vested interest could start racial riots; Government, part of the Government who wish to discredit the top leaders and wish to perform a coup (like Myanmar Military Intelligent wing under General Khin Nyunt) or even the opposition.

I am not an Islamic radical. Just look at my Darz kkg. I had contributed a lot of useful non Islamic articles for our country.

But if you care to read the following articles, you could understand what the Muslims in Burma want.

  1. United We Stand, Divided We Lose [1]
  2. We are all Burmese in our heart [2]
  3. We also Love Burma, part 1 (Burmese)[3]
  4. We also Love Burma, part 2 (Burmese) [4]
  5. Complaining of unfair attitude On Religious Minorities including Muslims [5]
  6. Opening Heart on Equal Rights for All Ethnic Groups [6]

So please may you kindly allow me to remove the folloing tags from my articles_
You all are free to edit as you like on those articles.

Thank you all.--Darz kkg 10:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Ko Kyaw2003, I hope you have heard the following fable, as told by W. Chafe. There was once a Wolf, who saw a Lamb drinking at a river and wanted an excuse to eat it. For that purpose, even though he himself was upstream, he accused the Lamb of stirring up the water and keeping him from drinking... To understand this, one must realize that the Wolf is lying! To understand the key conjunctive "even though" one must realize that contamination never flows upstream. I hope you would not be foolish enough to stress to put the alleged plight of minority whites in Apartheid article in Wiki. And I hope you would not even think about the unjustifiable lame excuses of alleged Muslim grieviences leading to September 11, 2001 attacksarticles. Nor any one would accept to put in the excuses given by Nazi’s for committing the Holocaust article in Wikipedia. Neutral POV in those three cases must be applied in my articles. Why are you stubbornly hold that it is my POV only when I had cited many notable authorities in this field supporting my POV which is correct. This is the POV of a notable Israel Diplomat Dr Moshe Yega, Glass Palace Chronicle and many International Groups including UN and US.

Yes Ko Kyaw, some lamb may fight back. Some coloured Africans may have done some revenge on whites and some Jews may have done injustices on Aryan Nazi Germans.

In addition, yes Ko Kyaw, I had seen the photos of the predators; wolves, dogs, tigers giving breast feedings to the lambs etc. Moreover, not all Germans are bad and many of them had helped a lot of Jews. The same thing is true for whites. There are far more better whites than a small minority whites exploiting during the Apartheid period. And I even had wrote in my article about the good Buddhist monks (you may be surprized, even if any drunkard make a noisy scene infront of my clinic, few Buddhist monks used to pull them and protect me although they were not aiming to me but fight among themselves. Just read my article Myanmar Muslim activists in Wiki_ Especially Dr Kyaw Nyein had a very good relation with the very powerful and famous Mandalay Young Buddhist Monks and to some extent successful in countering the agent provocateurs from inciting the anti Muslim sentiments. Because of his request, real monks influential in Mandalay searched and confiscated and destroyed nearly hundred thousand anti-Muslim pamphlets allegedly distributed the Myanmar Military secret agents. Although reported to the authorities, no one was arrested for that crime in a country where many people were arrested, tortured and jailed for printing or photocopying or distributing any anti-government papers or even for distribution of Human right Declaration from UN office. And Ko Kyaw, FYI, I was there together with Dr Kyaw Nyein. When we were surprised and did not know what to do with that truck load of pamphlets during the riots, Sayadaw from Mya Taung Tike even advised us just to destroy them by burning in the monastry field and ordered the young Koyins to help carry and pile up those pamphlets to burn. We brought our Muslim religious leaders including Mandalay division Maulvi to apologize and request the Buddhist Sayadaws. Real monks are much better than hat most of us could imagine. My POV is just accept us as real brothers and sisters to rebuild our beloved country, Burma/Myanmar. Please stop the attack on us in Myanmar and Wiki. Your POV is crystal clear, Ko Kyaw. Although my POV is supported by multiple independent reputable sourses. You are the one who is blinded by bias and Racial Supremist policy. You are the one who started all the fuss. See how you read and interpreted the Pe Maung Tin and G.H.Luce, The Glass Palace Chronicle of the Kings of Burma". You wrote, The name "Nga Yaman Kan" usually means one eyed man in Burmese. You blatantly mis-spelled Nga Ramankan to Nga Yaman Kan. It was a big lie amounting to a crime Ko Kyaw. (Yes it is a varient and many people including me, you could see this in my King Sawlu article, to avoid the racists’ unnecessary attacks.) But do you understand that by purposely miss-spelling Nga Raman Kan’s name from that book as Nga Yaman Kan to trick Wiki editors and trying to subortage the Islam articles could also lead you to the Hague. As we have to learn Forensic Medicine and as we need to give expert evidences in the police cases such as assaults and murders, when we look at the wounds we could most of the time know whether they were the results of self-defense as every body has the right to the self-defense. However, if the victim was just holding a stick, if you use the knife or gun, it is not easy to claim a self-defense. After all, if you pump the whole magazine of bullets into the victim’s chest and head and especially after the victim fell down and could not harm you anymore, your aggressiveness is exposed and after the vicious attack, you could not hide behind the cloak of self-defense. You exposed and use my weakness in references but concealed and lied by misspelling the Nga Ramankan to Nga Yaman Kan and your cohort “Colonel” Okkar put the multiple insulting tags at all my articles. Now I had corrected all the references after I had given more than enough citations for my articles. However, you have given lame excuses to put back the tags. Yes you are right, my articles are not perfect. You are always welcomed to correct the mistakes. And if you care to see, another contributor Bojokemujee had posted most of those atrocities under Military rule. Nevermind you can blame me but please made sure that if you put any of your POV please kindly give irreputable sources and citations. Ko Kyaw, no article or book is perfect for every one. Even Holy books of God, like Bibles, Tri Pidaka, Torah and Koran may be not perfect for the non-believers. I am just a human being. You all need to improve this but not by vandalism or with insults. Ko Kyaw, thank you for suggesting me to have my own blog, or write in the online journals like Burma Digest. TQ, yes, I have done that. Just see my user page. But what are you and Okkar to tell that I am wrong to write these articles in Wiki. First you all tried to kick Muslims out of Myanmar and now, are you all trying to kick out Burmese Muslim articles from Wiki? No way Mr Kyaw. We are here to stay. You all could continue your Genocide attempt on Burmese Muslims in Wiki and so called Myanmar.

Where are the always enthusiastic, overactive Wiki editors and Administrators like: User:Rlevse and Ryūlóng (竜龍) to mediate our dispute? I hereby demand your vote or opinion or mediation regarding those unnecessary tags. You should not come to the scene of a fight, give a haste ‘judgment’ punish the victim and run away. You could cite thousands of Wiki rules and regulations that your judgment is right but it is morally bankrupt and wrong not to look into the root cause of a dispute or try to mediate on that matter.

It is the time to take out most of the insulting tags Ko Kyaw. No need to wait until cows comes back. The vicious multiple repetitive tags show your animosity. Your nasty attacks show the true nature and show that your excuses of self-defense is no more valid. I herby remove the excessive vicious unnecessary tags. Two is enough. Come on Administrators, if you think I am wrong think about this dispute and give decision. I would not remove again. Nevertheless, I cannot accept the aggressors or potential Genocide criminals’ decision to continue desecrate my articles.Darz kkg 06:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)