Talk:Pannonian Croatia

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Pannonian Croatia!? Well, clearly, some Croats don't much like the history of their own modern territory.

Here are a few quotes from a book "Kronika vezda znovič zpravljena kratka szlovenzkim iezikom po D. Antolu Pope Vrameze, kanouniku Zagrebechkom", written by Antol Vramec in the year 1587. The ‘ad hoc’ English translations are mine, as I don’t know of any official English translation. Accordingly they are poor, but will suffice to get the message across to the English reader. Croats consider this book to be written in their language, however as the title says the book was written in Slovenian (i.e. Slavonian) language – “szlovenzkim iezikom”.

373: "Huni ali Vogri iz Szitie ouo vreme naiperule jezu v Panoniu dezet zto i ozemdezet iezer ludi, malih, velikih, mož i žen ie došlo. Pannonia zvala ze ie oua zemla ali Orzagh ki ze vezda imenuie Vogerzka zemla ali Orzag, v Panonie iezu ztali na iednom dele Zlovenij a v drugom Nemczi ono vreme gda su naiperule Vogri došlij v Panoniju."

(The Huns or Hungarians from Scythia came in this period for the first time to Panonia with one hundred and eighty thousand people, small, large, men and women. The land now called Hungarian land or Orzsag was then called Pannonia and in it on one side stood Slovenes (i.e. Slavonians) and on the other Germans at the time when Hungarians first came to Pannonia.)

744: "Huni ali Vogri velika vnožina drugoch v Pannoniu ali Zlouenzku zemlu iezu došli..."

(The Huns or Hungarians in great multitude came to Pannonia or Slovene (i.e. Slavonian) land for the second time.)

832: "Gestimul kral Zlouenzki beše ouo vreme i Rabamus doktor takaiše be ouo vreme."

(Gestimul was Slovene (i.e. Slavonian) king in that time and Rabamus doctor was also from that time.)

1035: "Mihal cheterti v Czarigrade pozta czezar. Boia ie bil i voiuuval ie szueti Stefan kral Vogerzki proti voiuode Szmedereuzkomu Kupanu. I protiu Szlouenzkomu Herczegu Ceanu ar teda zlouenij szuoiega poglaunika iezu imeli med zobo."

(Michael IV. became emperor in Constantinople. Saint Stephen, Hungarian king, was fighting and warring against the duke of Smederevo Kupan. And against Slovene (i.e. Slavonian) Herceg Ceanu, because then Slovenes had their ruler from amongst themselves.)

1455: “Ianko voiuoda z Kapistranom fratrom z malu voiszku z Vogri, Szlouenczi i z Horuati proti caru Turzkomu i niegove voiszke velike i doszta pobiszta czara z malu voiszku i ludmi.”

(Janko, Duke (?), with small army of Hungarians, Slovenes (i.e. Slavonians) and Croats (fought) against Turkish Czar and his great army, killing the Czar with small army and men).

1537: "Iuan Koczian general Ferdinanda kralia voizku proti Turkom na Szlovenzki Orzag ali zemliu dopelia."

(Ivan Kocjan the general of King Ferdinand led an army against the Turks to Slovene Orsag or land.)

1538: "Bani Horuatzke i Szlouenzke zemle položeni iezu Peter Keglevich i Tomas Nadaždi ouo vreme."

(Bans of Croat and Slovene land are (made?), Peter Keglevič and Tomaž Nadaždi at that time.)

1542: "Ferdinandus kral vchini na Horuateh i na Szlouenieh Bana kneza Miklousa Zrinzkoga to izto leto."

(King Ferdinand makes Mikloš Zrinski the Ban of Croatia and Slovenia (i.e. Slavonia) this same year.)

1545: "Turczi robili zu na Szlouenieh ter ze zouo Petrouzki ali Kraleuzki Turczi. Miklouusa Zrinszkoga Bana Szlovenszkoga, pod Konszkim Turczi razbiše i porobiše dozta."

(The Turks were enslaving in Slovenia (i.e. Slavonia) and are called Petrian or Royal Turks. The Turks had beaten Mikloš Zrinski the Slovene Ban, and enslaved many.)

1557: "Goszpodin Peter Erdeudi Horuatzkim i Szlouenszkim banom posta."

(Lord Peter Erdeudi became Croat and Slovene Ban.)

1565: "Goszp. Peter Erdeudi Szlovenszky i Horuatszky Ban, Muztafu Zokolovicha Boszanzkoga Bega na obreskom z malimy ali dobrimi vitezmy 27000 Turkou poby, raztira i vnoge Turke ali szužnie poloui, z uelikim dobichkom domou nazai ze zrechno i zdrauo vernuše."

(Lord Peter Erdeudi Slovene and Croat Ban killed and chased away in Hungarian land with few but good knights 27000 Turks of Mustafa Sokolovich, the Beg of Bosnia, and hunted down many Turks or slaves, and returned back home with great profit safely and healthy.)

1567: "Goszp. Peter Erdeudi Szlouenzki, Dalmatzije i Horuatzki Ban, &c." and further on: "Gozpod Iurai Draskouich Zagrebechki Biskup i Ferencz Zlunski, Horuatzkim i Szlouenzkim Banom poztazta ouo leto."

(Lord Peter Erdeudi, Slovene, Croat, and of Dalmatia Ban & c.), and further on: (Lord Juraj Darškovič the bishop of Zagreb and Ferenc Slunski, became Croat and Slovene Bans this year.)

1570: "Velik i strašen glad je bil na Szlovenijeh i po vsoj zemle i vnogo liudi pomre od glada ouo vreme."

(A great and awful famine took place in Slovenia (i.e. Slavonia) and in whole of the land and many people dye of hunger at that time.)

1573: "Kmeti na Szlovenijeh vzali i zdignuli zu ze bili proti szuoie gopode, i plemenitim liudem, kotere poszekoše, obesziše, pomoriše i oztale na pokornozt dopelaše."

(Peasants in Slovenia (i.e. Slavonia) rose and rebelled against their lords and noble people, and were slain, hung, murdered and the rest brought to discipline.)

1574: "Gozp. Gaspar Alapi Horvatzki i Szlouenzki Ban be poztaulen."

(Lord Gašpar Alapi was placed as Croat and Slovene Ban.)

And so on. So much about the nature of the so called “Pannonian Croats”!

If these “Pannonian Croats” were calling themselves Szlouenczi, their country Szlouenieh or szlouenska zemla (land) or szlouenski Orsag (compare to the German term for Slavonia – Windischland, i.e. the land of Slovenes, who in German language are called Windisch) it clearly means they – the “Pannonian Croats” – identified themselves as Slovenes and not as Croats. Similarly to “Pannonian Croats”, Croat nationalistic historiography once tried to produce “Alpine Croats”.

Slovenes are not ignorant nor is the rest of the world. Slovenes know their history full well, while Croats seemingly have some unpleasant learning still to do. The modern name Slavonija is a Slavic adaptation of the Latin term Sclavonia, which in itself is an adaptation of Slavonian name, as used by Vramec and his szlouenski compatriots. Considering that Vramec clearly calls the land of Croats Horuateh, it is beyond doubt that Slovenieh means the land of Slovenes. Horuateh > Croatia. Slouenieh > Slovenia.

I very much doubt that any Slovenes have anything against Slavonia being a part of Croatia nowadays, nor against Slavonians identifying themselves as Croats (or Serbs or Hungarians or whatever they choose to), but I’m sure they have a lot against abusing wikipedia to push forward pure Croat nationalistic POV projected one millennium into the past and presented as neutral science, with one intention only – to blur the fact that the so called “Pannonian Croats” actually considered themselves Slovenes. These Slovenes were eventually assimilated into Croat language during and after the Turkish invasions, partly because of Croat as well as Serb migration, partly because they were ruled by Croat nobility after the disappearance of their own – especially after the extinction of the Counts of Celje, but mostly due to reasons Vramec himself speaks of: massacres, destruction, and enslavement, caused by the Turks, followed by famine.

I think the upper quotes, from which it clearly follows, that “Pannonian Croats” were calling themselves Szlouenczi as late as the end of 16th century, should speak to anyone neutral for themselves. 218.127.124.215 09:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)