Talk:Pan Geng
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[edit] Correct reading is Pan Geng not Ban Geng
According to all my sources, including the authoritative Keightley, the Cambridge History of Ancient China etc., and my understanding of the oracle bones and the etymology of 般 and 盤, the name of this ruler is Pan Geng, not Ban Geng. The latter is a shallow reading based upon modern characters which fails to take into account the fact that in the oracle bone script, the graph 般 is ancestral to and therefore represents both 般 and 盤. The redirect from Pan Geng to Ban Geng was therefore entirely inappropriate and I am attempting to move it back.
- I do not understand what this claim is. Is it opposition to pinyin; a theory of pronunciation of Bronze Age Chinese; or something in between? Septentrionalis 05:33, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
- The previous editor, Iflwlou, looked back at the evolutionary history of the modern character 盤 pan in the modern version of the ruler's name, and discovered that at the time of this ruler's life, the structure of this graph was simpler (and when literally translated element for element into modern graphs, becomes 般). So far so good, and the insight into the structural history of the graph is interesting, but the editor then apparently assumed that since the modern pronunciation of the ancestral graphic structure 般 is ban, he/she should alter Pan Geng's name to Ban Geng. This was an erroneous alteration, for the following reasons: 1) The graph 般 evolved in a bifurcating manner vis-a-vis both structure and pronunciation, and became two graphs, 般 ban and 盤 pan. The ancestor of both of these graphs is 般. That is, the Shang-period graph 般 equals both modern graphs, 般 ban and 盤 pan, in the same way that 隹 'short-tailed bird' is ancestral to both 隹 (now pronounced zhui1) and 唯 wei2. But that doesn't mean we should now pronounce 唯 as 'zhui1'. Furthermore, when you see an ancient graph like that, you should rely on the experts to interpret it. Keightley, one of the foremost oracle bone specialists, lists the Shang kings on p.185 of the below cited book, gives the actual oracle bone graph forms, and interprets them in modern characters -- in this case, writing 盤. We should follow this. 2) We can't legitimately say that this graph 般 was pronounced either ban or pan at the time, since pronunciation has changed so much since then. That king probably wouldn't even recognize the pronunciation of either "Pan Geng" or "Ban Geng", you see. 3) We would not now pronounce or spell the pronuncation of modern graphs (like 盤, the ruler's name) based on their 3,300-year-old pronunciation even if we knew it, any more than we would call you an australopithecus just because your ancestor was one. Pointing out ancestry is fine, but replacing the modern with the ancient is an error. 4) We refer to things by their modern names for clarity of communication. The modern name of this ruler is well established as 盤 pan. No one would type 'ban geng' to look for it anyway. 5) The Wiki standard of citing reliable references (as I have done, e.g., Keightley p.226) already adequately supports changing this page name back. It also supports removing the line about the oracle bone pronunciation. Keightley BTW is Keightley, David N. (1978). Sources of Shang History: The Oracle-Bone Inscriptions of Bronze Age China. University of California Press, Berkeley. Large format hardcover, ISBN 0-520-02969. Dragonbones 09:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you; that's much clearer; and I agree that we should not try to use reconstructed Bronze Age pronunciations. No one else does. Septentrionalis 16:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
- The previous editor, Iflwlou, looked back at the evolutionary history of the modern character 盤 pan in the modern version of the ruler's name, and discovered that at the time of this ruler's life, the structure of this graph was simpler (and when literally translated element for element into modern graphs, becomes 般). So far so good, and the insight into the structural history of the graph is interesting, but the editor then apparently assumed that since the modern pronunciation of the ancestral graphic structure 般 is ban, he/she should alter Pan Geng's name to Ban Geng. This was an erroneous alteration, for the following reasons: 1) The graph 般 evolved in a bifurcating manner vis-a-vis both structure and pronunciation, and became two graphs, 般 ban and 盤 pan. The ancestor of both of these graphs is 般. That is, the Shang-period graph 般 equals both modern graphs, 般 ban and 盤 pan, in the same way that 隹 'short-tailed bird' is ancestral to both 隹 (now pronounced zhui1) and 唯 wei2. But that doesn't mean we should now pronounce 唯 as 'zhui1'. Furthermore, when you see an ancient graph like that, you should rely on the experts to interpret it. Keightley, one of the foremost oracle bone specialists, lists the Shang kings on p.185 of the below cited book, gives the actual oracle bone graph forms, and interprets them in modern characters -- in this case, writing 盤. We should follow this. 2) We can't legitimately say that this graph 般 was pronounced either ban or pan at the time, since pronunciation has changed so much since then. That king probably wouldn't even recognize the pronunciation of either "Pan Geng" or "Ban Geng", you see. 3) We would not now pronounce or spell the pronuncation of modern graphs (like 盤, the ruler's name) based on their 3,300-year-old pronunciation even if we knew it, any more than we would call you an australopithecus just because your ancestor was one. Pointing out ancestry is fine, but replacing the modern with the ancient is an error. 4) We refer to things by their modern names for clarity of communication. The modern name of this ruler is well established as 盤 pan. No one would type 'ban geng' to look for it anyway. 5) The Wiki standard of citing reliable references (as I have done, e.g., Keightley p.226) already adequately supports changing this page name back. It also supports removing the line about the oracle bone pronunciation. Keightley BTW is Keightley, David N. (1978). Sources of Shang History: The Oracle-Bone Inscriptions of Bronze Age China. University of California Press, Berkeley. Large format hardcover, ISBN 0-520-02969. Dragonbones 09:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
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- There is the issue of romanisation, P'an Keng is in Wade Giles, but Pan Geng is in hanyu pinyin. Dylanwhs 11:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, at first when I saw the Ban Geng title I thought the OP had misread the Pinyin as WG, such that Pan would represent the sound ban, and that the OP then translated it back to Pinyin, but his/her explanation mentioning 般 indicated a different route to the error.Dragonbones 12:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
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