Talk:Pan American World Airways

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[edit] Unofficial "flag carrier" of the United States

The introduction to the article asserts that Pan Am was the "unofficial flag carrier of the United States," but this statement does not appear to be supported in the body of the article or by appropriate citation. Not intending any offense to a fine company or the people who worked for it, this sounds like mere boosterism, which should not have a place in a featured article. I don't want to remove that language, since this article has been through peer review, but will any editors step forward to substantiate that claim, or at least qualify it? (For example, if Pan Am marketing material spoke of the "unofficial flag carrier," then the phrase needs an "according to.")

Thanks, --Craigkbryant 02:48, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

  • This description had been used in several sources that I used in writing this article, mostly because in the beginning the US government gave a lot of support to the airline (note that the article mentioned the US government's seeing the airline as the "chosen instrument" for foreign flights). Also, Pan Am had a very large presence in international flights (the article mentioned Pan Am was focused on dominating the international air travel market and its attempts to "enhance" its position as the nation's prominent international airline). If you still have any questions, feel free to ask. Pentawing 03:32, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Pentawing,

Appreciate the response. I'd still be happiest to see a cite specific to the words "unofficial flag carrier" in the article. Without it, this still sounds like sloganeering and boosterism. Would you be willing to add such a citation?

Best, --68.19.72.220 05:24, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Done. Pentawing 06:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Further to the comments above, Pan Am was the de facto flag carrier for the US. As the US has never had a government-owned flag carrier, Pan Am was used to transport diplomats and US government personnel. This persisted until at least the 70s and deregulation; I'm not sure about their status afterwards. Having seen this article featured on the front page, I should really add some more info, especially on Pan Am's decline and fall, seeing as I spent a summer at the Smithsonian working on Pan Am's history... Jakob 22:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Richard Robins (talk) 20:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)Richard_Robins. I was disappointed to read the first paragraph above the photo of Juan Trippe. My father was a Pan Am flight crew member from 1942 to the 1970s. Sadly, the opening paragraph places unnecessary emphasis on the events after the Company's demise at the expense of all its achievements, e.g. first to offer 'economy seating,' first to fly round-the-world, important global airline in the postwar years. The paragraphs below do a reasonable job, but the top paragraph could do a much better job. Regretably, there's no mention of promoting Boeing to build the B-367 at the end of WWII, and no mention of the Co. being the launch customer for many important aircraft, e.g. Douglas DC-6, DC-7C. Pan was the first Company to place an order for the Boeing 707 that made the "jet set" possible. Pan Am was an early contributor to the design of the Boeing 747 because Trippe wanted something very large. My main point here is to ask, Why does the first paragraph ignore Pan Am's major accomplishments?

[edit] Accidents?

The last fatal accident was Pan Am Flight 103 in 1988. The plane, a Boeing 747 named the Clipper Maid of the Seas, exploded in mid-flight over Lockerbie, Scotland, due to a bomb in its cargo hold.

Speaking as someone who lost classmates to that one, let me remind you that was not an accident but a direct terrorist attack, as the subsequent sentence makes clear. Perhaps, in airlinespeak, "incident" was intended?

It rather reminds me of the awkward wording at Syracuse University's memorial, saying that all victims died "in a plane crash over Lockerbie, Scotland, caused by a terrorist bomb." (The last clause was added after the memorial was built, at the insistence of some of the victims' parents who wanted it absolutely clear they died due to malice aforethought on another's part, but even still since when do planes crash over places?)

Also, seeing as this made the main page today, I'm really disappointed that someone couldn't find a better way to phrase this:

The airline was involved in the worst disaster in aviation history. A Pan Am 747, named the Clipper Victor, was involved in the Tenerife disaster on March 27, 1977.

I'll fix these, but still ...Daniel Case 03:41, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

  • I changed the wording concerning Pan Am 103 from "accident" to "incident" (noting that the word accident wasn't used beforehand, though it wasn't caught in the first place). As for the second passage, I can't think of a better way to say this. Any idea is appreciated. Pentawing 03:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

In true Wikipedia fashion, I went ahead and fixed it myself. Daniel Case 04:44, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Thanks. Much appreciated. Pentawing 05:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
For future editors, in United States airlinespeak "incident" has a specific meaning under statute: an occurrence to an aircraft that didn't result in loss of life or serious injury or substantial damage to an aircraft. ICAO has a similar definition. A baggage cart bumping into an aircraft and denting its tail is an incident, if the dent isn't too bad. Flight 103 was a disaster and a criminal act under the laws of the United Kingdom, the United States, and Germany, but was absolutely *not* an incident. --Charlene 23:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The airline was involved in the worst disaster in aviation history. A Pan Am 747, named the Clipper Victor, was involved in the Tenerife disaster on March 27, 1977." This sounds redundant with the repeats os invovled and disaster. How about, simply:

"The airline was invovled in the worst accident in aviation history - the Tenerife Disaster of March 27, 1977."

It says the same thing but is much less wordy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.67.140.42 (talk) 21:43, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] to the moon!

The article says: During the Apollo program, Pan Am sold tickets for future flights to the moon. These later became valuable collector's items. But my recollection is that they merely took reservations and kept a waiting list, but never actually sold tickets. Can someone verify or modify? --Keeves 15:21, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Waiting list tickets were given out; www.retrofuture.com/moontrip.html says by 1971, over 93,000 tickets were allocated. check out the page about 3/4 of the way down (near the 3rd picture) for more information --Rjcflyer@aol.com 00:38, 8 January 2006 (UTC)--Rjcflyer@aol.com 9:35, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
The article has a picture of a waiting list certificate, and the text "... the air carrier established the First Moon Flights Club, which, in reality, was nothing more than a prioritized waiting list. ... the public was eager, too. By the time the airline closed out its list in 1971, Pan Am (whose name was emblazoned on the shuttle in Stanley Kubrick's "2001: A Space Odyssey") had a list of over 93,000 people, including future president Ronald Reagan." The website was last updated in 2002 and was written by a man called Eric Lefcowitz, who seems to be a failed author and failed guitarist. It would be more accurate to say that "Pan Am opened a waiting list for future flights to the moon. Over 93,000 places were allocated, and waiting list certificates later became valuable collectors' items." To win my respect an editor would have to determine (a) whether Pan Am seriously expected to schedule moon flights, and whether the waiting list had any legal weight and (b) if so, at what point did the company abandon the project, and if applicants were ever notified of this and (c) was the list, or the data on the list, sold as part of the company's assets? -Ashley Pomeroy 03:27, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] World Port

Hi to all, we need to write something about the World Port.

Greetings. simonlebon

Item is already started. Worldport (Pan Am)..BrandlandUSA 20:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced passage

To whoever inserted this passage, can you note the sources this is based on? Also, the wording borders on positive commentary instead of straight facts (please reword to tone down the language).

At its height during the early 1970's, Pan Am was known as the "World's Most Experienced Airline." It was highly regarded for its state-of-the-art aircraft and far-flung destinations. Pan Am's crews and cabin staff were respected for both their aviation experience and their multi-lingual ability. Pan Am flight attendants were poised and dedicated, and a high percentage of them were university graduates. American passengers in particular were proud to travel on this airline, which was known for its superb safety record. On board meal service was excellent, with filet mignon served in Economy Class on some flights. Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis preferred to fly First Class on Pan Am even though her Greek husband owned Olympic Airlines. But serious challenges lay ahead.

PentawingTalk 16:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I am the author of the above paragraph. I have just inserted the book by Barnaby Conrad into the "References" in the main article for Pan Am. This is where I received information that the airline had used the trademark term "World's Most Experienced Airline" in its advertising, as well as the fact that the Pan Am flight attendants tended to be university graduates. I myself have flown on Pan Am to Asia, Europe, and the Caribbean and I own a souvenir menu that shows filet mignon being served in Economy Class on a flight from Tokyo to Los Angeles in 1970. It was a well known fact, frequently cited in many sources, that Jackie Kennedy Onassis preferred to fly on Pan Am rather than her husband's airline. It is true that the airline had a high reputation during its good years, before the economic problems and disasters of the 1980's injured its brand and led to its collapse. I am new to Wikipedia. Can you rewrite the above paragraph to your liking with this information in mind? Thanks, User:DennisJOBrien@yahoo.com.

OK, updated paragraph has been added with citations provided. User:DennisJOBrien@yahoo.com

[edit] Split "reincarnations"

Following the precedent from Frontier Airlines and Arizona Airways This section should be split off into two separate airlines -- they're different companies, not really connected except by name. —Cliffb 05:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree --Gnosbush 13:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I also agree. There is no similarity between these incarnations and the original airline except the name, the logo, and one aircraft type (the most common type in the world when Pan Am went bankrupt). The current airline is mainly a charter service, the original was a schduled service carrier. These are different airlines and should be listed separately.Elwood64151 16:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I also agree. The two other airlines basically purchaced the name and logo and have no relation other than that to the orignal airline. I think the old Pan Am Shuttle was more of an airline than these two. Spring3100 07:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I also agree. They're different companies with the same name. Incidentally, many people when they find they are flying Pan Am even now immediately think they are flying with the old, established airline, and not a charter airline that bought the name. --Charlene 23:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Then just go ahead and do it. But it's really more of a scheduled commuter airline than a charter service. BTW, I live in Mercer County, NJ and flew on a "Clipper" to Hanscom a year ago. The Jetstreams are white with the Pan AM Globe and each have "Clipper XYZ" names. As far as I can see the livery is identical to the 707 I flew on to Amsterdam in 1964. The tugs, gate and terminal area are similarly marked. I haven't seen anything larger than a Jetstream in Pan AM livery in years. GCW50 15:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Finally done... Cleaning up that old list.. —Cliffb 04:35, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

It's a shame, bue at least the name hasn't died, and its ghost still flies. On the other hand TWA is really kaput.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Simonlebon (talk • contribs) 06:23, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Pan Am Building

I guess the page still needs a little pic of the former Pan Am Building. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Simonlebon (talk • contribs) 06:18, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Lockerbie disaster

I've added the following to that section just to highlight the impact of the disaster - "Two hundred seventy people from 21 countries died, including 11 people on the ground. With 189 of the victims being American citizens, the bombing was the worst terrorist attack against the United States until September 11, 2001 and remains the worst terrorist and aviation-related disaster on British soil." Kaenei 23:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I have added fact tags to this, as the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing killed more people and it was directed towards US forces (as well as French), and killed 299. But is it regarded as a war time attack or 'terrorist' attack? --Russavia 02:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Unless you can point to a source that made this assertion, I suggest that such a passage be left out in the meantime. PentawingTalk 01:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clipper Flying Boats

Re the prewar Clipper period, no mention of the Martin (?) flying boats between the Sikorskys and the Boeings! 202.154.140.176 09:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pan Am in film

I am placing this list here in the talk page, given that some of the entries do not appear very significant. PentawingTalk 01:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The airline appeared in other movies, notably in several James Bond films. The company's Boeing 707s were featured in Dr. No, From Russia with Love, and the well-known parody Casino Royale, while a Pan Am 747 and the Worldport appeared in Live and Let Die.

Other mentions include:

  • The 1969 film Bullitt features a chase scene at San Francisco International Airport, where Steve McQueen's character runs after the villain on the tarmac while dodging several Pan Am 707s.
  • Also in 1969, Argentine actress Isabel Sarli checks in and boards a Pan Am 707 flight from Panama City, Panamá, to Buenos Aires, Argentina, in Armando Bo's Desnuda en la arena.
  • The airline's logo was also seen in the film Blade Runner. Subsequently, Pan Am became one of the victims of the supposed Blade Runner curse on large corporations whose logos were featured in scenes from the film.
  • Pan Am also figured prominently in Scarface (set in the city of Miami, one of Pan Am's major hubs), where the airline's logo and slogan were adopted by criminal overlord Tony Montana.
  • In the I Love Lucy episode "Home from Europe," Lucy, Ricky, Fred and Ethel fly from Europe back to New York on a Pan Am flight.
  • In the 1988 film High Spirits, a family of American tourists travels to Peter Plunkett's (Peter O'Toole) Irish castle on a Pan Am 747. The film was one of the last in which an audience would see a 747 in Pan Am's new colors.
  • The airline was also featured in an opening scene of the Robin Williams's film Hook, in which the family is aboard a Pan Am 747-100 to London. Ironically, the movie opened just a week after the airline ceased operations.
  • In The Phantom (1996) a Pan Am Clipper, probably a Sikorsky S-42, tried to make a "non scale" trip between New York and the fictional country of Bengala in Africa, before an attack of air pirates stopped it. Also in the New York Port are ads: "Pan Am Clipper Cargo" and "Via Pan American", both of them with the old Pan Am logo.
  • The airline's logo was also featured in the opening sequence of The Family Man, where Nicolas Cage checks in at the Worldport for a Pan Am 747 flight from New York to London. Some years later his character finds the old Pan Am boarding passes.
  • The battle between Juan Trippe and TWA owner Howard Hughes over Pan Am's transatlantic monopoly was featured prominently in The Aviator.
  • In the television series The Simpson's in the episode Rome-old and Juli-eh grandpa metioned that if things didn't work out with him and Selma "Pan Am would have a job waiting for him".

[edit] Joke or truth?

PA had a hub in Guatemala? I knew they flew there, but a hub? See infobox. Archtrain 16:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Removal of Pan Am Flight 103 debris picture

Im showing the picture of "Clipper Maid of the Seas" is scheduled to be deleted. While trajic, this picture is highly associated with this incident. Removal of the picture has no merit and drasticlly takes away from the soul of this article. That picture has to be one of th most enduring images of the late 80's early 90's. It's historical value to this article is highly relevant. Kcuello (talk) 05:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree the image should be retained if possible. However, it does need to be sourced on Wikimedia Commons.Phase4 (talk) 11:12, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:MartinM-130 GGBridge.jpg

Image:MartinM-130 GGBridge.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 15:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)