Talk:Palestinian textbook controversy

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Contents

[edit] Here we go again

OK, Deuterium, now we have to find some facts to balance what seems to be your delightfully cherry-picked quotations Image:smile.gif -- Avi 14:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The quotations aren't cherry picked, they're representative of their respective sources. As for the balance issues, I couldn't find any serious studies (rather than blatant cherry picking) that found that Palestinian textbooks did incite violence.

Palestinian textbooks did [and still do] incite violence against Jewish people. You have not looked at all of the studies. -Dendoi

What's with all the tags? I can see that you think it's unbalanced, but it's factually accurate (with supporting cites) and written from a neutral point of view. And why the globalize tag? Deuterium 15:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I've cleaned up the worst of it, but there's still much more to go. Stating non-notable opinion as fact is a no-no, for one thing. Jayjg (talk) 16:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Does this really warrant its own article?

This seems to me to be a relevant part of Institutional anti-Semitism in the Palestinian Authority or something, but what kind of article title is "Palestinian textbooks", and on what grounds is it regarded as a sufficiently independent topic to stand as an article of its own? Tomertalk 00:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree. What's next, Palestinian coloring books?
As for the title, I would suggest Palestinian Authority and anti-Semitism. ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
There have been numerous allegations of terrorist incitement against Palestinian textbooks in the media, and studies performed so it seems to be a very controversial topic and worthy of an article.
Regardless, Palestinian Authority and anti-Semitism is an extremely biased title; Allegations of Anti-Semitism against the Palestinian Authority is the neutral choice. Deuterium 02:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It's just another mini-article created for the purpose of soapboxing; it's obviously not quite as useful for that purpose, now that it has been cleaned up a bit. It could probably just be re-incorporated into the Palestinian Authority article, perhaps in an education section. Jayjg (talk) 18:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the title is very misleading. The article is not about textbooks, but about politcs and propoganda. A meaningful article would talk about the Palestinian curriculum, grading system, school boards, examinations, degrees etc. I suggest moving this to an article called Academic bias in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This woudl be more neutral than Palestinian Authority and anti-Semitism.Bless sins 05:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] The Zionists r at it again

Is wikipedia zionpedia? Why don't they also say that Arabs and Muslims r devils while Israelis r angels too?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Robin Hood 1212 (talk • contribs)


-- I think the Arabs and Muslims are doing fine saying this themselves. Have you ever watched Al-Jazeera or read a recent Palestinian textbook? Their racism is what keeps them oppressed and suffering.

Reports on Palestinian kids’ hatred grossly exaggerated // Liftarn

[edit] Suggested Move

I suggest the article be moved to Academic bias in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I also suggest that "Palestinian textbooks" redirect to some relvent section of an article.Bless sins 04:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I am curious as to the purpose of the move and what else would go into the proposed article. This particular article looks like it can stand on its own and many well-known organizations, groups and individuals are concerned specifically with Palestinian textbooks. I don't necessarily object to the move, but maybe it is better if Academic bias in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would contain a summary section of this one. ←Humus sapiens ну? 11:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello Humus Sapiens. The reason is that the current title is very misleading. When most people think of "Palestinian textbooks" or "Israeli textbooks", we think of the curriculum of the respective country. We think of the quality of education, the professors that wrote those textbooks, whether they meet world standard, etc. You know, education sort of things. This article doesn't show the Palestinian science curriculum, arabic curriculum, art curriculum etc. only the Palestinain views on Israel.
The problem with this article is that it is completely political. It doesn't really talk about the Palestianian education, only about the bias in those textbooks. We must realize that there is more to Palestinian books than Israel.Bless sins 17:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
So add such information to a new section in this article. That does not mean the name must be changed. If this section threatens to overwhelm all other information, perhaps it should be spun off into Academic bias in Palestinian textbooks. -- Avi 17:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Avi. Also, the article seems to reflect a number of reports produced by a variety of sources. I think that Bless sins's complaints are misplaced: it was not Israel, America or Europe that made Palestinian textbooks "completely political." Perhaps you should address your concerns to the PLO/Fatah. ←Humus sapiens ну? 21:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not complaining to anyone (niether Fatah nor Israel). How did you deduce that? Here is my argument in easy to follow steps.
  1. This article does not talk about "Palestinain textbooks", but only the political aspect of the textbooks. It does not talk about the science, mathematics, Arabic, art etc, but only politics. A meaningful analogy would be if an article about Paris, was called "France".
  2. Renaming the article to "Academic bias in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" will give the article some context. It would also allow views on Palestinians and Israelis to be presented side by side. Infact the section titled "2002 George Eckart Institute comparison" compares Israeli books with Palestinian ones.

Please do respond.Bless sins 02:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The article talks at length about issues with Palestinian textbooks, and various analyses done of them. Jayjg (talk) 02:18, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
But that's exactly the problem! The article doesn't talk of Palestinian textbooks, rather talks of the political aspect of Palestinian textboks. Just as an article about biology should not be named "science", similarly this article should not be named "Palestinian textbooks". In both cases, the given title is far too general for the topic.Bless sins 16:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
This appears to be the only notable aspects of them; highly notable, given the number of studies devoted to the subject. In general, textbooks aren't a particularly encyclopedic topic, so there's no real broader context to place this in. Jayjg (talk) 22:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Your kinda agreeing with my position without knowing it.
  • "This appears to be the only notable aspects of them". Exactly. Why call an article "Palestinian textbooks" only to ignore most of what they contain? Doesn't make sense.
  • "In general, textbooks aren't a particularly encyclopedic topic," again I agree with you. Why call this article Palestinian textbooks when textbooks aren't an encyclopedic topic?
  • "...so there's no real broader context to place this in". Right, but I am saying that we should place them in a narrower context. Instead of calling this "Palestinian textbooks", we should move it to something like "academic bias in Palestinian textbooks", or more NPOV, "academic bias in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" to place bias in its context.Bless sins 21:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

== Palestinian education is the root of terrorism

==

Terrorism preceded occupation, just look at the number of Israelis murdered by Arabs before 1967 and before 1956. The Palestinian education system is based on racism and hatred. This is the root of violence. There will never be peace in the Middle East until someone changes the education system of Arabs in Saudi Arabia, and other hostile nations. --Anonymous user

[edit] Double Merge Proposal

I propose that both this page and the Israeli textbooks page be merged into a single page called Academic bias in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This will solve some key problems, notably the one described in the section below about how the title does not match the content. It will also allow for other academic groups' biases to be discussed. Organ123 00:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, by setting up this new page, we could eliminate the current problem of this page being a collection of quotations better suited for Wikiquote. Organ123 00:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro is blatantly POV. ... Or, title doesn't match the entry.

If I didn't know better, from reading this article I'd think that the definition or essence of "Palestinian textbook" is: "Palestinian textbooks have been accused of instilling anti-Semitic attitudes or inciting Palestinian children to commit violence or terrorism." If this article is about bias in Palestinian textbooks (which it appears to be), then it should be called something different, say "Bias in Palestinian textbooks." If the article is just about Palestinian textbooks, maybe there should be, say, a listing of textbooks and a detailed analysis of their content. It seems that this entry and its title don't match. Organ123 17:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with you. I have been trying to suggest this. It is as if we named the article Botany, to "Science".Bless sins 22:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Should we merge this to "Arabs and anti-semitism"?Bless sins 17:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree that something needs to be done, and your suggestion sounds as good as any I can come up with off-hand:
1) The title of this article doesn't match the content. This article is not about mathematics textbooks, for example, nor is it about the textbooks in general. It is about allegations of anti-Semitism in some of the textbooks.
2) The article as-is does not comply with WP:NPOV, because it does not present a fair treatment of "Palestinian textbooks", especially given that these textbooks are perhaps written by living authors.
3) This article is a collection of quotes, and would perhaps be better suited to Wikiquote than Wikipedia. An encyclopedia should present a concept in a concise way, referencing the most notable arguments to make a compelling and reasonable explanation of reality. People who may support this page as-is should note that presenting the information in an encyclopedic fashion is more powerful than using the current "quote farm" approach.
4) In fairness, I think that the sister article, Israeli textbooks, should be modified simultaneously with and equally to this one, whatever we decide to do. Organ123 19:10, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow... This is the most racist wikipedia article ever. So the title is Palestinian Textbooks and from the article, one would not know that Palestinian textbooks are used to teach actual academic subjects. Why not take this article and merge it into Arabs and anti-semitism as a paragraph, working all the wondeful quotes into sentance and paragraph structure rather than the present one. Seriously, is there someway we can have this reviewed by an impartial administrator. This is honestly a disgusting display of trying to use wikipedia to promote a political stance, and whoever started it should recieve a lifetime ban. Shia1 00:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My recent edits and NPOV tags

This article gives highly undue weight to the Israeli Defense Forces and Palestinian Media Watch. It is not clear to me why we should pass on IDF claims, especially not with misleading section titles which do not make it clear that we are doing so. Nor is it clear what makes Palestinian Media Watch, a propaganda front group linked to the Likud wing of Israeli politics, a reliable source on any of these issues. Furthermore, we have not presented any defence given by Palestinians themselves. As a result, we are giving equal weight to neutral academic studies which find no incitement and tendentious partisan claims of incitement, a clear violation of policy.

In addition, please do not cite Palestinian textbooks by name and page number unless you have actually read these textbooks. I have removed all of these citations being about 99.5% sure that the editors haven't. In one case, a pro-Palestinian editor was almost community-banned for doing this once with a claim that wasn't even contentious. Eleland 19:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=3060&CategoryId=21 has a list of sources that can be used to expand the article. // Liftarn (talk)