Talk:Palestinian cuisine

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Contents

[edit] Arak

Is arak really common among Palestinians. I know that Palestinians are not particularly religious, but the commonly drink alcohol? Basejumper 15:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Extremely late reply and I apologize for that. I personally come from the Galilee and I am a Muslim and believe me tons of Muslims drink Arak, Muslims and Christians alike. Obviously religious Palestinians stay away from alcoholic beverages but to back what you said above theres only handfuls of them, especially in the north. Of course yo may not take my word for it, so I have added a reference to support my claim. --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
William Cowper Prime travelled in Palestine in the 1855-56, and published a book about it in 1857: Tent Life in the Holy Land. What is great about it is that the whole book is online at University of Michigan Library: Tent life in the Holy Land. It is an amusing book (though I have only had time to read part of it). Now, you can search for "arrakee" (as it was called then), and you will see that he was offered arak all over Palestine!
..in a reception in Jaffa: (p.33)
..visiting the Holy Sepulcre in Jerusalem: (p.144)
..and by the monks of Mar Saba (p. 205)
..and by the monks of Nazareth (p. 347)
Regards, Huldra (talk) 07:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA nomination comment

In a GA on cuisine, I would really like to know more about the cuisine history, as well as the structure of meals and some information on codified cookbooks, including the history and significance of these cookbooks to the cuisine. I'd also like to hear a little about cuisine prepared in professional restaurants, what styles of restaurants are there and who does the cooking in them.Palestinian restaurant directory --Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 18:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Comments:

  1. Per the Manual of Style, whitespace is to be avoided if possible, so the Table of Contents should be moved, probably to the upper right corner of the article, to eliminate such large whitespace.
  2. The caption on Image:Palestine breakfast.jpg needs to be more descriptive. What's in the picture?
  3. A well known Mediterranean-style table salad made in the Levant is tabbouleh. (Galilee cuisine) Who says that it's well known? This sounds like original research without a citation. In fact, a lot of this article worries me as being original research. You've divided the article into regions, which is fine, except that the main source doesn't do the same, and thus many of the assertions just aren't supported by the sources. While the dishes themselves are supported by the references, the regions are not. For example, the first two sentences of "Central Palestinian cuisine" read "The meals of the inhabitants of the West Bank and the Wadi Ara are known for being heavy and main ingredients include rice and Taboon bread. However, the traditional cuisines of the Galilee and Lebanon are also popular in these areas, especially in the restaurants of most West Bank cities." and are entirely cited by the the main reference at the end of the paragraph. Yet, reading through that reference, it does not discuss the cuisines by region, and certainly does not support the assertions made in those two sentences. Another example from "Desserts and Sweets": "Kanafeh is probably one of the most popular desserts of the Palestinians that originated in the city of Nablus in the northern West Bank." That it originated in Nablus is supported by the reference, but "Kanafeh is probably one of the most popular desserts of the Palestinians" is not. "Probably" is not very encyclopedic or neutral; it entails a judgment call on behalf of the author, a conjecture about the facts, a subjective interpretation. It is a weaselly way of saying "I can't support this with a reference, but subjectively I believe that." Some of this reads more like a travel guide than an encyclopedic article, especially when the above concerns about lack of history sections are taken into account.
  4. I'd like to hear your response to the comment above regarding broadness. The two cuisine Good Articles, French cuisine and Italian cuisine both have extensive history sections. While this is obviously impossible for Palestinian cuisine, I'd like to at least hear why the section is completely absent. Are there no sources? Nothing about the restaurants? The concern above is legitimate, but there may be a good response to it.
  5. The lead needs to conform to WP:LEAD. Specifically, it must not introduce any facts that are not present in the body of the article (for example "Palestinian foods are also very similar to other eastern Mediterranean foods, such as the cuisines of Greece and Turkey.") and must address every major point/heading made in the body of the article (for example, there's nothing in the lead about "Beverages")

Unfortunately, when taken together, the concerns regarding tone, original research and lack of broadness of coverage are too important to allow for this article to be passed at this time, or even placed on hold. It looks very good on the surface, a solid B article, but a closer inspection raises some serious questions. Therefore, I am failing the article at this time. If you feel that this review is in error, you make take it to good article reassessment. Once these concerns have been addressed, it may be renominated. Thank you for your work thus far. Cheers, CP 22:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

On the regional sections issue, I'm going to try to take care of that. I was thinking that perhaps we transform those sections in order to go by the ref and to be consistent with the rest of the sections,- which would be by the type of food, such as the lighter mezze or side dishes and the heavy meals (tabeekh). I've hunted any weasel words you missed in your sample edits as well as opinionated and/or unreferenced material that could also be suspect of original research. Not saying I got all of it, but anything I at least saw while I was scanning the article. I'll look into it more tomorrow.
As for the history of the cuisine, like you said above, its virtually impossible to provide. Theres no real history of Palestinian cuisine, its more Syrian really. However some meals like musakhan, maqluba and kanafeh are truly Palestinian. Maybe I could find something on history or I could ask other WikiProject Palestine users if they have any info and if that strikes out, then I'm afraid theres just not going to be a history section or if any, nothing nearly as broad as Italian or French cuisines which dates back centuries. I've expanded the lead section to include beverages and removed any material not mentioned or cited in the body of the article. It looks like another user has almost taken care of the white space issue and deleted the Palestine breakfast image. I also hope my slight expansion has helped that as well. In general, I think I have addressed your issues somewhat and I'll finish in the coming days. The history section is going to be tough but I'll see what I can do. I'll also start looking at the French and Italian cuisine articles to compare and see what else should be done. Please give me some feedback on my response to your review, which I thank you for. Cheers and happy holidays! --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:27, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I looked at the French and Italian cuisines and I choose the latter to base on as far as article structure goes. It might take more than a couple of days before I renominate it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Taking just a cursory glance at the article, it looks a lot better than when I first reviewed - almost a different article. Some of the subjective conjecture remains, and the article could certainly be improved by removing it, but it's no longer distracting to the point of making the article difficult to read. The article as a whole reads much more like an actual encyclopedia entry, rather than a travel guide. There are some Manual of Style issues that I spotted even without an in-depth read, but these can be pointed out/fixed by a GA reviewer and are not so critical that the article couldn't be placed on hold. So to answer your overall question, yes, the article is definitely on the right track; it has lost that "I know there's something off about this article" feeling I got when I reviewed it, which I ended up attributing to the tone. Again, this isn't an in-depth review, but I can say that you're on the right track for sure. Great work! Cheers, CP 22:23, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your support! I'm going to ask another user (who specializes in copyediting) that helped me bring Yasser Arafat to featured article to see what he can do as far as MoS and grammar are concerned. It might take a little longer than a couple of days however, depending on whether he is busy or not. I'm still going to see what I could do to provide some history of the cuisine in the article though. I was thinking, maybe I could write about the history of (Greater) Syrian cuisine (which I'm sure has sources) or do think that wouldn't be really appropriate for this particular article? Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, you are on the right path with the article. I'll be willing to help where I can as cuisine research is my specialty. As for the context for the history of the cuisine, the Italian cuisine article you mentioned is a great example. The history of the cuisine in that article mentions the history of the cuisine that eventually became Italy as Italy itself is a fairly young country which was part of many other countries at different times. So when writing the section, just think of it in that context and make sure to mention the information to that affect I.e. "The region that has become Palestine has a varied past and as such the cuisine has contributions from various cultures." I hope that helps, feel free to message me if you would like. Although I do not know much about this cuisine, I have access to resources.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 23:58, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Then thats what I will do and start hopefully tomorrow. You said you have access to resources - by any chance would you have on on Syrian/Arab cuisines? I'm going to look on the internet as well. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 00:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you familiar with Classic Palestinian Cookery by Christiane Dabdoub Nasser? I just ordered it on Amazon.com and I also have The Cambridge World History of Food which may have some information in it but it is currently packed as I am in the process of moving. I'll have to get back to you on it.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 01:11, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The book is listed in the Further reading section of the article, however, I do not own it. Once you have it, writing the article will be much easier since books provide much more info. Hopefully theres a menton of history in the book. I am very excited to see in what information you have to offer. --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Informal Review, Per Request

It looks very good! A few suggestions:

  1. Don't forget to make sure that the lead conforms to WP:LEAD in that all major points/headings made in the body of the article are summarized in the lead. For example, there's nothing on the "History" section in the lead currently. Also, since you've divided the article by region, you should probably give the general idea of each region section in the lead.
I totally forgot about the lead section since the addition of the new sections, but I'll get to that tomorrow probably;I'm a little busy tonight. However I will immediately add the regional styles.
  1. The introductory paragraph of "Regional cuisines" seems POVish without proper citations. I know that you've used them later in the individual sections, thus you technically don't need them, but it might help the article a bit. Again, if for whatever reason you don't want to do this, don't do it just on my account, since other editors may not care, but it's a suggestion.
I think you make a good point (its the bottom of the paragraph, correct?) I saw that in one of the refs and I'll hunt it down and add it as soon as I find it; Its probably already somewhere in the article.
  1. The wikilink to List of Palestinian meals should be moved to the "See also" section. Same with List of Palestinian breads List of Palestinian bread dishes, List of Palestinian dips, List of Palestinian cheeses, List of Palestinian salads and List of Palestinian beverages. Actually, I just realized that they're all individual sections of a main article - I suggest eschewing their use within the article and just leaving it at a single link to the main article in "See also"
The only reason I did that was because I was imitating the Italian cuisine article—which distributes the list article sections as such. If its really a problem, I can just add it to the See also section.
  1. I personally think that "Meal structure" and "Dining out" would work better as a prose section, rather than a list, since it breaks up the flow of the article but that's just my opinion. Both sections have at least one uncited statement, however, which should be addressed.
I will get other opinions on this since like the list distribution, I just imitated the Italian as well as the French cuisine articles. Any missing refs, I will look for though.

Otherwise it's looking pretty good (at least, without an in-depth review). A little more work and this should be a viable GA candidate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadian Paul (talk • contribs) 19:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your checkup, I will address all the points ASAP. Also I'm going to delay the article's nomination for next week as there could be more potential for the history section from a book another wikipedia user owns (I think). Cheers and once again thanks for the review. --Al Ameer son (talk) 00:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Al Ameer son: Some time ago I read Aburish, Said K.: Children of Bethany: The Story of a Palestinian Family, Indiana University Press 1988. ISBN 0-253-30676-0 He has a fantastic detailed story about his parents (huge!) wedding in the 1930s in Bethany (West Bank), As I recall there was a lot about the food! The book is easy (and not expensive) to get at, say, abebooks.com. Best of luck. Regards, Huldra (talk) 05:57, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
PS: also: isn´t Abu Ghosh especially famous for its hummus? Could we perhaps find a ref. for that? Huldra (talk) 06:00, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Really! I have a friend who owns that book and I can simply borrow it from him. Thanks for suggesting that!

Yes I heard Abu Ghosh is indeed famous for that. I already spotted a ref or two that has Abu Ghosh in it, so finding it won't be so hard. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The Children of Bethany-book is very good, IMO, he is very open. Aburish seems like quite a character; see the two links I added to his article. I have only read (some of) his Arafat book, and the Bethany-book. Interestingly; the sharpest and most intelligent critisism of Arafat I have seen comes from two Palestinians: Aburish and Edward Said. Btw: this article has developed very, very nicely! Congrats! Regards, Huldra (talk) 02:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, he certainly is quite the character, I will obtain the book in two days max. As for Abu Ghosh, I added a segment about its famed hummus in the Dips and side dishes section. Thanks for the compliment, I would also like to congratulate you and Tiamut on your work in the Palestinian costumes article. The Palestinian culture topic on wikipedia is dramatically increasing in context and quality, lets strive to bring as many articles as we can to GA status. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 02:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History

I don´t believe there are any books/studies that address this specific issue....however, there are lots and lots of traveller -accounts from the "Holy Land"/Palestine. Some of those traveller accounts describe the local food. Now, there are two greater "repositories" of texts of old books online which I know of:

....both places you can go and enter the word "Palestine", or "Holy Land", or whatever, and search for those words in the books. Actually: I suspect that there is material for the writing of a great book on the history of the cuisine of Palestine to be gleaned from all of those books......just one "small" problem: that book isn´t written yet!

Anyway, I have not looked at gutenberg this time (yet), but I have looked at the University of Michigan files, and lately I have linked to books when the writers have their biography on wikipedia:

.....of these books I would say that Prime is the easiest read, while Robinson is by far the most important.

  • In Robinson, I find the following description on p.86: describing a dinner for high-level people in Hebron (in 1838):

    "They were dining in the true oriental, and, as it would seem, official style. A very large circular tray of tinned copper, placed upon a coarse wooden stool about a foot high, served as the table. In the centre of this stood a large tray or dish with a mountain of pillaw, composed of rice boiled and buttered, with small pieces of meat strewed through and upon it. This was the chief dish, although there were also smaller dishes, both of meat and vegetables. Around this table ten persons, including the three governors were seated.."

  • and for breakfast, p117-118: "on their journeys, coarse black unleavened bread is the Bedawy´s (=Bedouin) usual fare" ..made of wheat and barley.
  • also for breakfast, p. 70: breakfast prepared: newly baked bread with semen (melted butter) and leben (soured milk).
  • and on p.210-211:...describing a six person all-male dinner with the "common Muhammadans of the place" in 1838 in Hebron:

    "Dinner was soon served. A large napkin was spread upon the carpet of the room; on this was placed a coarse wooden stool, supporting a large tray of tinted copper. Bread in thin sheets was laid for each person on the napkin below. On the tray were three dishes of pillaw without meat; three dishes of mutton stewed with onions; three dishes of a kind of sausage, stuffed with rice and chopped meat, and a large bowl of lebben or soured milk."

Elijah Porter Barrows isn´t all that interesting for our purposes, but he has a nice quote from H.B. Trisdam (1865) The Land of Israel, a Journal of Travels in Palestine. p. 262, 263, describing a feast among the Bedouin Arabs on the shore of the Dead Sea (that must have been in 1858):

"Dinner was brought. This consisted of a single course, served in a huge bowl about a yard in diameter. The bottom was filled with thin flat cakes, thinner than oak-cakes, and which overhung the sides as graceful drapery. On them was heaped boiled rice, saturated with butter and soup, while the disjecta membra (dissected parts) of the sheep which had been slain for the occasion were piled in a cone overall"

Elizabeth Rundle Charles, 1866, isn´t that interesting either, but she does speak of the p.328 "flat unleavened cakes (such as were often prepared for us)"

Al AlmerSon: I don´t know if you can use any of this, feel free to use it or not as you please. Oh, and there are many, many other travel-accounts out there in full text; perhaps we should collect them on a page connected to the Pal.project.page?? Anyway, take care, regards, Huldra (talk) 09:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

You're right, the Robinson book seems the most important. Unfortunately, even he does not discuss the history of the cuisine. As you said above, the problem is no one has written a book on the cuisine's history. Regardless, I think the current history section presents enough info for readers to know about the origin of the cuisine and the cultural diffusion that took place to make it what it is today. The reader's experience for a good article is the following:

Useful to nearly all readers. A good treatment of the subject. No obvious problems, gaps, excessive information. Adequate for most purposes, but other encyclopedias could do a better job

Theres obviously not a single encyclopedia that could do a better job, so I believe this helps its candidacy for being a good article. If you don't see any blatant problems with the article, I will nominate it ASAP. --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Have you gotten hold of the Dabdoub Nasser book? Is there any history there? If you don´t have it, I suggest that you wait nominating the article until you have checked with the book. (Ahem: I suspect the reviewers will have the book...and check..;-P ) Otherwise I completely agree with you; unless you/we do a ton of research, which will really border on OR, then this article is as good as it can get. (But if I was a professional historian, of cuisine and/or the MiddleEast; then I would definitely have looked into the possibility of doing a more systematic study of the food history of the area..). Ah; only one thing: I do think you should have a link to unleavened bread somewhere in the article. And possibly pilaf? Regards, Huldra (talk) 07:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I do not have that book, but I'm almost positive it mentions history; the history section of this article comes from Dabdoub. So I guess until I/us/anyone obtains that book, I'll delay the article's candidacy. Unleavened bread is linked through markook bread which is a type of unleavened bread. I'll mention pilaf throughout the article since its a staple for most of Palestine's subregions. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
yeeees.... but, anybody coming to this article searching for "pilaf", or, for that matter, "unleavened bread", would not find it... I think perhaps we should cater for the totally clueless, too. Regards, Huldra (talk) 10:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
No big deal, I just linked it in the Bread meals section. I have a question on pilaf though. Should we replace it wherever rice is mentioned or just the West Bank, etc.? --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, could you possibly just insert if the first time it is mentioned? I had heard the name "pilaf"...but had no idea about what it was (or rather: what was the common denominator) before I looked at the pilaf article ...(hey, it is not a common name on any dish around here where I live!). Huldra (talk)
In the sources I used, I only saw the word rice, not pilaf. I haven't heard the word (or any variation of it) used either and we have rice almost everyday. So I don't really know what we should do about it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
P.S. This also reminds of mujjadara. I know it was either started in Palestine or its a common Palestinian meal. The problem is, I need a source and a region to attribute it to; The former is the major problem. --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Al Ameer son: the place I saw the word pillaw used was in the old historical books; like the one by Robinson, quoted above, cheers, Huldra (talk) 11:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Ahhh, thats right. Good memory ;). But which section should we add it or should we just place the word rice with it. I asked my father and he says we eat pilaf everyday we just don't call it that and instead say rice. What do you think we should do? --Al Ameer son (talk) 15:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA status

I'm currently reviewing this article for the good article nomination. Comments below are welcome.Bless sins (talk) 16:51, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for reviewing the article. I just want to mention that the history section is just about as far as it can get since there are no published sources on Palestinian cuisine. There is a book by Christiane Dabdoub Nasser, but no one seems to own it and there is no guarantee that it has info on the cuisine's history. Sorry :(. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:02, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Certainly for a featured status the history section will have to bigger. For GA status see my comments below (will be posted in a few minutes).Bless sins (talk) 22:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Grammar and prose

The article is written reasonably well, in a style English speaking people will be familiar with. There may be several spelling mistakes.

  • What is "bulgar"? Is "burger" the intended word?
  • Non-English words should be mostly italicized.
No the intended word is actually bulgur, which is a form of ground wheat and I'll italicize all non-English words. However, should hummus and falafel be italicized since they're well-known in America? --Al Ameer son (talk) 00:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Probably not.Bless sins (talk) 17:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Verifiability

Almost all the content is sourced. The sources are verifiable. There is a variety in references (more than the good article Italian cuisine, which is based only on 5 sources). Since this article doesn't present controversial information the level of reliability of sources used seems appropriate. There are some concerns:

  • Is "Turbo Computers & Software Co. Ltd" a reliable source on cuisine?
  • We should get more academic sources.
  • The lead is not sourced. But it doesn't have to be. The claims made in the lead seem to verified in the body.
The publisher is what I read at the bottom of the webpage, but the work is by This Week in Palestine. --Al Ameer son (talk) 00:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Broad coverage

The coverage is quite broad. It contains the basic elements: History, regional variations, meal structure, cuisine on special occasions, and commercial cuisine (e.g. dining out).

  • The history section should be expanded. I understand the concerns about lack of information, and will not fail the article on this account.
Neutrality

The article is neutral. With beverages, it presents the views of of both Muslims and Christians.

  • The article could do better, however, by expanding more on the "conservative Muslim" view. If such Muslims don't drink alcohol, then what do they drink on their occasions and dinners?
I'll look into the ref, but I don't remember it mentioning what observant Muslims drink. I'm sure its just anything but alcohol (cola, tamar hindi, juices, qamar eddine, etc.) --Al Ameer son (talk) 00:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
If tis juices it will be of some specific types. I know Arabs love pomegranate juice.Bless sins (talk) 17:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Its true we love pomegranate juice, but I need to find a ref that says that before I can insert it in the article. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Stability

This article is very stable. More than 80% of edits are made by one user (Al Ameer son).

  • It might be good to get other editors on board.
Yes, I've never really tried, however for a short while Huldra was making some edits or at least providing several sources for the article as you can see above. --Al Ameer son (talk) 00:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Images

Well-illustrated, this article certainly does not lack images. I don't see any copyright violations.

  • No suggested improvements.
Overall

I'm in favor of passing this article. Are there any objections of further comments?Bless sins (talk) 22:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

There wasn't info on what conservative Muslims drink instead of alcohol, but as I said above its probably anything except alcohol. --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:08, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Probably not. I mean conservative Muslims believe that one can open the fast (iftur) during Ramadan with anything (bananas, water, pizza etc.) Yet such Muslims still open their fast with dates. Why? Because its the traditional food. Anyways this issue is not critical at all. I'm passing the article. Good luck in improving it to A-class status and then hopefully FA status. Contact me if you need any help.Bless sins (talk) 17:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you so much for the review, I'm very happy that it finally passed (I've been delaying the nomination for months). I'll shoot for FA once I get that book and I hope that mentions history. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:25, 9 March 2008 (UTC)