Talk:Palestinian costumes

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Contents 1 Nonfree images 2 List of some possibly useful Matson collection photos 3 Article lead 4 Structure of sections 5 Embroidery 6 Gallery 7 Citations 8 Introduction 9 Origins section 10 Random notes, Shelagh Weir (1989): Palestinian Costume, etc 11 Embroidery section 12 the "Central Palestine" section 13 The introduction and foreign 13.1 Historiography and collections 14 Some notes 15 Good article candidate 16 Is this a mistake? 17 Some nice pictures from before 1946 18 JSTOR additions 19 Central region 20 GA Review 21 Restored image 22 Site about Levantine, including Palestinian, costumes

[edit] Nonfree images

I am impressed with how well-developed the article has become. However, I think there is a problem with the use of non-free images in the article. Wikipedia seeks to actively encourage people to create free content, so it has some strict restrictions on the use of images that are not free content (see WP:NONFREE). In particular, the posters and book covers should not be displayed as mere decoration without, say, critical commentary about the images themselves. Moreover, it seems possible that free images could be created as reasonable replacements for the non-free ones. If you disagree, then please feel free to get further opinions about the issue at WP:FUR. Otherwise, I'll remove the offending images in a few days. Sorry about this... nadav (talk) 07:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Could you explain specifically which images are a cause for concern in your opinion? Thanks. Tiamat 10:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure thing. Here's the images whose use is problematic: 1) Image:Sliman Mansour poster 1988.jpg. According to WP:NONFREE, artworks should only be displayed to illustrate critical commentary about them. It's not allowed to show a copyrighted poster just for the purpose of showing an example of a person in traditional dress. Moreover, a free image could be created for that purpose, which goes against WP:NFCC#1 2) Image:Poster of painting The Gown of Patience.jpg. Similar problem: there's not enough text specifically devoted to the image. Is it being used to illustrate a particular technique or school? Then there should be more explanation of the image. In any case, I would expect that a free image could be created in its place. 3) Image:The Art of Palestinian Embroidery.jpg - The problem again is that the book cover is being used merely for decoration. Book covers should ordinarily be used only in articles about the books themselves (for visual identification) or, sometimes, about their authors. 4) Image:Video Cover of Palestinian National Costume preserving the heritage.jpg. Again, no text specifically analyzing the image, and more significantly, the image is probably replaceable with a free alternative. 5) Image:Embroidering a Life book cover.jpg Same reasons.

Also, these images need to have good fair-use rationales on their image description pages. In fact, I was going to add the rationales myself until I noticed the images weren't used properly in the article. You've done a great job on the article text; maybe you could take some pictures of traditional clothing from around Nazareth? These would be a great contribution to the project, and it would ensure that other-language wikipedias could use the photos too. nadav (talk) 19:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

A couple of those pictures are discussed in the text briefly. But whatever. I don't really understand your objections and don't have much of an inclination to argue. I think it's a shame that you basically stripped the article of more than half its pictures and didn't even bother to redistribute those that remain in a decent fashion. Thanks for the additional work. Tiamat 21:54, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

You can ask other image-policy people for their opinion at WP:FUR if you like. I'm sorry about not rearranging the remaining photos; I should have noticed how it looked and fixed it myself. nadav (talk) 00:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

By the way, there are no such pictures to be taken in Nazareth. We did not wear traditional Palestinian embroidery being a city in the Galilee where the style of clothing was more Westernized and consisted of floral print patterns. I have to go to Ramallah or Jerusalem to find such photographs. Tiamat 22:00, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Please excuse my ignorance. When I wrote that, I meant that perhaps there was a museum or some public space with examples of traditional clothing. If not, it may be possible to ask the Palestinian Heritage Center, for example, to release some photos under a free license. There's some more information at WP:COPYREQ. nadav (talk) 00:29, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I asked user:Trjames, a curatorial assistant at the Oriental Institute, Chicago, if he could possibly contribute a photo of an item from their collection. If that doesn't work, I'll try to ask them to release some of the photos on their website. nadav (talk) 00:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

user:Nadav, I will try to get you something in the next few days - I have some personal photos I took, but I will have to search a bit to find them. In the meantime, you should check out the Smithsonian's Matson Collection [1] which is 100% in the public domain (we used a few of their photos in the exhibit). Trjames 01:12, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Please look here for my gallery which now includes three installation shots I took of the show. Trjames 20:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of some possibly useful Matson collection photos

Some of these could perhaps be incorporated into a gallery section in the article. Sadly, they are are all black and white, since they are almost a 100 yrs old. But it adds some authenticity, I guess. Note, there are some duplicates in the list since they have a few nearly identical pictures under different titles.

Bethlehem woman. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/04600/04625v.jpg

A Nazareth mother http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/04600/04626v.jpg

A "Nazareth mother" http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/04600/04651v.jpg

Various types, etc. Peasant girl embroidering. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/05200/05294v.jpg

The Samaritans of Nablus (Shechhem). Interesting scroll-cover of embroidered silk. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/01800/01824v.jpg

Ramallah woman in embroidered costume http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/00600/00662v.jpg

[Girl of Ramallah wearing embroidered dress] http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/06800/06863v.jpg

Bethlehem and surroundings. Bethlehem. Courtyard of an old home. Girls embroidering and sewing. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/02600/02603v.jpg

Costumes and characters, etc. Shepherd. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/06800/06809v.jpg

Costumes and characters, etc. Girls of Ramallah. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/06800/06848v.jpg

Costumes, characters, etc. Bethlehem woman http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/00000/00067v.jpg

Costumes, characters, etc. Peasant girl and her ornaments http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/00000/00077v.jpg

Costumes, characters, etc. Bedouin women. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/01200/01273v.jpg

Costumes, characters, etc. Bethlehem woman http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/11700/11764v.jpg

Costumes, characters, etc. Mother and baby of Nazareth. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/05200/05266v.jpg

Costumes, characters, etc. Nazareth bride. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/01200/01236v.jpg

Bedouin woman. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/06800/06833v.jpg

Bedouin woman. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/06800/06835v.jpg

Costumes, characters, etc. A Nazarene. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/01200/01293v.jpg

Agriculture, etc. A Nazareth maiden. In old Nazareth costume. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/02900/02968v.jpg

Costumes, characters, etc. Woman of Nazareth. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/01200/01237v.jpg

Costumes and characters, etc. Veiled Mohammedan [i.e., Muslim] women. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/06800/06803v.jpg

Costumes and characters, etc. Bust of a Bedouin. / American Colony, Jerusalem. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/06800/06826v.jpg

Costumes and characters, etc. Bethlehem family. / American Colony, Jerusalem. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/06800/06814v.jpg

Costumes, characters, etc. Women of Beersheba. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/01300/01301v.jpg

Costumes and characters, etc. Bethlehem women gossiping. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/06800/06813v.jpg

Woman wearing dowry necklace. http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/matpc/06800/06847v.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nadav1 (talk • contribs) 07:07, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Nadav. These are quite beautiful, though sadly a little out of focus. What do mean by gallery section? External links? Tiamat 09:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to this. It's just an idea. Also, I think I can do some basic touch up and cropping if there's a photo you think would be good in the article. nadav (talk) 09:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Neat. I didn't know that could be done. I will try to put something together myself. Sorry for the curt tone earlier, I was just sad to see most of the colorful visuals leave the article. I do appreciate you help and suggestions. Tiamat 09:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Trust me, that's nothing compared to how some people have reacted in the past. The policy on non-free images is extremely unpopular on Wikipedia. nadav (talk) 10:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience and understanding. Tiamat 11:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

So far, I've uploaded two images from those you linked to here. I will add more as well in the coming days. Thanks again for finding these pictures. Tiamat 11:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) The gallery code is simpler than some pages make it out to be. All that is necessary is

<gallery>

</gallery>

The image names (without brackets) are listed in between the gallery tags. See an example of a gallery here: Iraq War#Topical images. Unless set specifically in the gallery wikicode each viewer sees the default thumbnail image size set by the wiki software. Currently that is 100 pixels wide. The images can be captioned too. Here are some more pages with captioned galleries:

• Headscarf
• Rail transport

--Timeshifter 18:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is an article with an uncaptioned gallery:

• Mexican general election 2006 controversies --Timeshifter 08:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article lead

The article is very good. Perhaps for the lead paragraphs, more could be said to recap or signal the main sections to come: so maybe add something about the garment types and the current collections. Also, if you don't mind my saying so, the lead could give a brief statement about men's costumes as more uniform, etc. Even if the article doesn't expand its coverage of men, w/o something in the lead I'd wonder if the article is only about Palestinian women's costumes (Not that there's anything wrong with that!). Thanks. HG | Talk 16:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey HG. Expansion of the lead is a fine suggestion. I'll try to add to it soon, but if you get to it before me, great. I think the article does need some expansion to discuss men's clothing (eveb if its not all that interesting ;). Otherwise, you are correct in nothing that it's only about women's costumes. Tiamut 16:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Structure of sections

For pre-48, I suggest (1) Gender and societal variations (or, instead of societal, something to capture urban, rural, bedouin), (2) embroidery at same heading level, then (3) regional. I'll BRD this. The central region might need subheadings. Why the order, eg Ramallah first? Anyway, the two list should parallel the order of the town subsections. (Am I missing something?) Oh, looks like Jerusalem should be last, because it borrows from other towns. Otherwise, why not Bethlh - Hebr - Rmlah?

Also -- can the one point about Majdal be added to Gaza subunit (which mentions Majdal)? Maybe rename Southern and Coastal? Alternatively, why not drop the regional headings here, so there can be a distinct Bedouin section?

For post-48, it looks like it would help to maybe re-order some paragraphs and create 2 or 3 subunits. I'm hesitant to suggest the subheadings, since it would be helpful to keep the article from getting overly politicized (and thereby a bone of internal contention). Still, some para's are more about clothing, some focus on refugee settings, some more about political aspects. The last para, on collections, shouldn't that be moved below? Thanks. HG | Talk 17:16, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi HG. The changes you made are good. I did restore one bit about the coastal region being agriculturally rich since it relevant to the relative lack of embroidery there, per the observations on Dalman in the Galilee region. Hope you don't mind. Tiamut 16:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm crushed (velvet). HG | Talk 16:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

p.s., if it's relevant to the lack of embroidery, then shouldn't the article say so? It's not an obvious point. Ciao. HG | Talk 20:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey HG. I didn't realize it wasn't made explicit and indeed, it may be only my reading of the subject based on this quote:

An Arab proverb of this particular region, originally recorded by Gustaf Dalman in 1937, went: "embroidery signifies a lack of work."[20]

The region where this proverb is used (the Galilee primarily) is an agriculturally rich area and the implication is that those working primarily in agriculture have less time to make elaborate embroidery. Anyway, I don't want to make explicit what the sources do not. I think leaving it as it is will allow the reader to make their own inferences (or not). But in any case, we show, not tell at Wikipedia, right? Tiamut 19:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Embroidery

If some editors here have examples they could photograph and upload, I'd be glad to crop/edit the shots and identify specific techniques and stitches. Durova^Charge! 03:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Durova. I have a couple of examples of embroidery in my home and around town that might be good for this. I'll try to get you some digital shots uploaded by the end of the week. Thanks for your additions to and interest in this article. Tiamut 10:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure thing; please upload to Commons and ping me when they're ready so that I can categorize them etc. Best wishes, Durova^Charge! 19:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Durova. I haven't forgotten about those pictures but I'm encountering some technical difficulties (my own computer crashed earlier this week and my husband's computer won't upload the pictures from my camera automatically). I'm sorry for the delay, but I will get them to you as soon as I figure it all out. Thanks for offering to help crop and categorize them. Tiamut 20:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. Too bad about your computer! Good luck getting things fixed. Durova^Charge! 21:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Dear Durova,

I've finally managed to upload two pictures. They are:

I will try to take more pictures in locales around town. There's a great shop called Cactus that has a number of dresses with local village patterns. I know the owner quite well, so he might let me photograph them and distribute them here. I'll keep you updated. Tiamut^talk 15:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gallery

Galleries are discouraged at Wikipedia articles. Since this one already has a Commons category link, perhaps remove the gallery? Durova^Charge! 10:41, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• They're only discouraged when entirely redundant as far as I know. Funkynusayri (talk) 10:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Actually all three images from the gallery are also in the Commons category. So it really is redundant. Durova^Charge! 11:04, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
• Well, in that case all images from Commons are redundant on Wikipedia. It's about whether they're relevant in the article or not. But yeah, the ideal solution would be to incorporate the images into the article itself. Funkynusayri (talk) 11:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Sometimes material gets hosted on Wikipedia but not on Commons for copyright reasons. In this particular case that isn't an issue and the article has quite a few images already. I really like these; I'm also thinking what would help bring this to the next level. Durova^Charge! 11:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• Awright. By the way, here's a Bedouin woman in Jerusalem, don't know if the image could be used here. She looks like an Amerindian or something with that head-band and the pigtails. Funkynusayri (talk) 14:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
  • That's awesome! Do you have a larger file? Her eyes are incredible. We might be able to get that accepted as a featured picture if it's at least 1000 pixels on the longest side. Durova^Charge! 17:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
• I don't have a larger version, sadly but I'll upload a bigger version if I do manage to find one. The page on size criteria states this though: "Exceptions to this rule may be made for historical or otherwise unique images. "[2]Funkynusayri (talk) 18:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
  • I've been nominating a lot of vintage photos. The size requirement isn't likely to be waived unless an image is the only available version of a unique historic moment. Durova^Charge! 18:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I see the gallery images is now taken away. I would suggest replacing one or two of the pictures in the article now with one or two of pictures that were in the gallery. Especially, I would suggest replacing the (historical) picture of the "Bedouin women of Beersheba" with the image with the Bayt Jibrin and the Beersheba dresses. (The former gallery picture is simply far more detailed than the present Beersheba one.) Secondly; I would very much like the Jericho dress back -it represents a very special, unique type of dress that I was just going to add some more information about. Perhaps we can replace the "tourist" picture? Regards, Huldra (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:28, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

By all means, use whatever images you think are best. Commons images are completely portable into Wikipedia. If there's something I can do to help, such as uploading a cropped version to highlight a particular detail, give word and I'd be glad to. Best regards, Durova^Charge! 20:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Durova; thanks for your offer! Actually; if you could make a cropped version of the Bersheba dress (in this: [3] picture, it would be great. Then we could have both the Bersheeba pictures under the "beduin" heading.. Also, Durova: please check my post under "citations" below. Thanks! Huldra (talk) 21:52, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure thing. Image:Bersheba dress.jpg Cheers, Durova^Charge! 23:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be space problems. If all the images are shrunk, there'll be room for more. If people want to see bigger images, they can simply click on them. Funkynusayri (talk) 00:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, at GAC redundant galleries are a minus. This article already has a lot of really interesting photographs and a link to more at Commons. A lot of work has already gone into this page and I'd like to help bring it to the next level. Durova^Charge! 00:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I wasn't hinting at a re-inclusion of the gallery, simply more room for illustrative images within the article itself. Funkynusayri (talk) 00:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Oops, I guess I misunderstood. Maybe I could go through the page and whether cropping could help solve that problem (same detail, smaller image, less background). Durova^Charge! 01:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

There, done for two images. Does that help? Durova^Charge! 01:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Im' thinking more of within the image tags themselves, where you can see it for example says "200px", or similar, if you remove that, the images get smaller. Cropping won't make a difference if that parameter isn't changed. Funkynusayri (talk) 01:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• • Actually I downsized those image parameters a bit to compensate for the cropping. You're welcome to do more; my idea was to decrease the size of the image with minimal loss of detail. Also, here's an image I edited that's moving toward acceptance as a featured picture candidate on Commons. The 103-year-old caption attributes it to "Palestine", but I'm not sure whether the women were actually Palestinian. From what I understand, the word wasn't used very precisely in the English speaking world a century ago. Any input would be much appreciated. Right now it appears at history of coffee. Durova^Charge! 02:21, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
• Hehe, I'm sorry that I might have sounded patronising in relation to the image size thing, but I didn't get what you meant earlier. As for the women, couldn't their origins be determined by the clothing? Funkynusayri (talk) 02:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
  • When I started working on historic images I read the FP guidelines and thought exactly the same thing. Regarding the coffee grinding women, I hope someone who knows historic costumes can identify these. Durova^Charge! 05:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

I've converted the Stillman citations to the same footnote format as the rest of the article uses. It would be a good idea to convert direct external links to footnotes. And FWIW, lists are discouraged at GA level. So if some of the lists were rewritten as paragraphs I think this would be pretty close to GA level. Durova^Charge! 11:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you referring to the list of Palestinian apparel? I can give it good copy edit if you like. Tiamut 15:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I've changed the list format to prose. I'm trying to sort out the references issue. There are still multiple styles of referencing. Note that Stillman still appears as "(Stillman, p. 37)" at places in the text. What style should we settle on? Should all books be converted from the references section for placement in the Bibliography using the style of referencing Avi introduced at Palestine? Thoughts, feedback appreciated. And great work to everyone! Tiamut 16:28, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Most of the citations are in footnote format, so let's do everything that way. Thanks for the heads up; I'll run a search for Stillman's name and fix the ones I missed. Regarding the other web links, how about the cite web template? Durova^Charge! 17:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. I hope this edit didn't lose too much information. Double check, please? Durova^Charge! 18:04, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Huh? I think it is wonderful that so many have started to work on this article, but I don´t understand some of the edits. I added all the "(Stillman, p. 37)" etc. references in the text, and I had thought of converting it to refs at the end of the article. "Stillman" her ofcource referred to the book I had given in the "Bibliography"-section, namely:

• Stillman, Yedida Kalfon (1979): Palestinian costume and jewelry, Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press, ISBN 0-8263-0490-7 (exhibition catalog of the Museum of International Folk Art (MOIFA) at Santa Fe)

...so where on earth does the "Steinbicker, Earl (2000). 50 one day adventures in Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine" -reference come from?? Regards, Huldra (talk) 20:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I think there's a bug somewhere, or maybe a minor bit of formatting I missed. I noticed that too. I'm not an expert on this particular citation template. Any ideas? Durova^Charge! 23:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I have´t got a clue; never even heard of the book! There is a reason why I use citations like "(Stillman, p. 37)" etc: never understood much of the citation templates! ;-D Huldra (talk) 23:51, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll see if I can tweak it. Maybe some other template at a different article uses the same name. Either way, standardizing the reference format is one of the ways we can raise this above B-class. Would you like me to reformat the in-text external links into web citations? Might take a little longer for me to get around to that. Durova^Charge! 00:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean by the "in-text external links into web citations"? Huldra (talk) 00:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

There goes. BTW, could you tell me the book for this cite so that I can add it? Durova^Charge! 00:32, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Longstanding traditions of embroidery were found in the Upper and Lower Galilee, and in the Judean Hills and on the coastal plain. Weir writes that cross-stitch motifs may have been derived from oriental carpets, and that couching motifs may have origins in the vestments of Christian priests or the gold thread work of Byzantium (1970: pp.13-14).[7]

Shelagh Weir published 2 books in 1970, one on Palestinian weaving and one on Palestinian embroidery. I dont have the books -but my guess is that it is from the embroidery -book:

Weir, Shelagh: Palestinian embroidery, a village Arab craft. British Museum, London 1970. 44 pages. ISBN 714115088

(It is a bit outdated..she has published two (or three?) newer versions of the book later.) Also..I would be very happy to see that the page-references in the Stillman book does not disappear? Huldra (talk) 00:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

They're still in there; this particular citation format tends to hide page numbers from the footnotes. That's one reason I don't usually use it. Durova^Charge! 05:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Huldra, Durova. I'm going to try to set the references to the format used at Palestine. If you don't like it when I'm done, let me know or just revert it. Cool? Tiamut 01:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Go for it, thank you. Durova^Charge! 01:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Great! Huldra (talk) 01:32, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey guys (and ladies). I pretty much did the refs. I left in a few links without ref formatting in the "Headdress" sub-section since they jump to photos of the items in question. I hope that's okay. If not, let me know and I'll clean them up too.

Some questions:

1. There are a bunch of books listed in the bibliography that are not cited in the article. Is it okay to leave them there? Or should they be in their own separate section, under a heading like "Additional bibliography"?
2. There's citation for Gilmour, p. 26. Does anyone know who this refers to? I can check the history and will if no one knows offhand, but if you can save me the work, speak up. ;) Tiamut 03:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

An "additional reading" section sounds great. Not sure on the other part. Durova^Charge! 05:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

For Gilmour, try Dispossessed: The Ordeal of the Palestinians, 1917-1980. by David Gilmour, or maybe The Palestinian Exodus: 1948-1998 by Ian Gilmour, Ghada Karmi, and Eugene Cotran.

Have you looked at (see Google Book): El-Khalidi, Leila. The Art of Palestinian Embroidery 1999 (maybe: London: al-Saqi Books), should significant boost the article. Also, Culture And Customs Of The Palestinians By Samih K. Farsoun, which includes a brief section on men's clothing (52-3)

Plus, pdf version of the Embroidering Identities: A Century of Palestinian Clothing by Iman Saca (2006) based on the OI exhibit. Great images, text, bibliography. (3mb download) Thanks, HG | Talk 10:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC) -- Sorry, I see this under external links. Maybe move/copy to bibliography? What's preferred placement for pdf links to sources? HG | Talk 11:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I will add the pdf link to the reference in the Biblography section as I think that's the right way to go. If you find out differently, do change it or let me know and I will. Tiamut 20:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

One thing that would really help this page is a longer introduction. For an article of this size, three full paragraphs would be about right. I could read over the content and try to flesh that out (somewhat as an outsider). Mind if I post a draft here for the cultural experts to tweak? Durova^Charge! 01:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Please do! Huldra (talk) 01:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC) Ditto! See comments about lede, above, too. HG | Talk 01:48, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

HG; I see you added two sentences in the lead, cited to Farsoun. Now; the second sentence is fine (about the importance of head-gear: very correct, AFAIK), but I´m not so happy with the first sentence you added ("Likewise, men's clothing varied by locale, status, and age") Men´s clothing varied so very, very much less than women´s. You could not tell what village a man was from by his clothing.. Do you think you could reword it, to reflect that? Regards, Huldra (talk) 20:59, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• I don't know why the intro was changed by Andalus, but I tried to fix some mistakes he did. FunkMonk (talk) 13:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Origins section

Hi Tiamut. I see that the Canaanite origins issue might come up again here. Are there countervailing voices? (Will this section be controversial?) Anyway, I did notice one sentence that seems possibly one-sided (though coming from a clear author): "...1200 BCE up until 1940, all Palestinian dresses were.." This implies a smooth continuity of "Palestinian" dresses, which might raise objections, so I'm wondering whether another term should be used or this qualified in some way. Thanks. HG | Talk 01:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

As long as it is clearly attributed to the author's voice, I don't see the problem. If you have a source that offer a contrary viewpoint on Palestinian dress, you are welcome to share it. Tiamut 01:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, as long as POV is cited as the author's opinion instead of Wikipedia's editorial opinion, that seems okay. I'm no expert on the controversies here, so if there are other notable opinions it would be a good idea to find a source from the other side and present them both. Durova^Charge! 01:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, as I recall from Talk:Palestinian people, currently the majority view would not characterize Canaanite era culture (incl dress) as "Palestinian." From my read, the sentence is describing the author but doing so from the encyclopedia's voice (and editorial view). To avoid any future tsores, I'd suggest changing the wording to "all of the region's dresses were...." Gently and endearingly yours, HG | Talk 02:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry HG. I don't really understand your request. The sources use the word "Palestinian", not just Munayer, but Needler and Emberling as well. Your asking me to agree to replace "Palestinian" or "Palestine" which is freely used by these reliable sources who are experts in their respective fields, with "all of the region's dresses"?! That's not what they say. Isn't your proposal flat out WP:OR? Respectfully yours. Tiamut 02:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, the word "region" is hardly OR. Munayer seems to be an advocate of the Canaanite origins approach. Since Durova's idea was to collaborate to move this article to GA, I'm trying to raise our antenna about possible point-of-view objections. Do you see how this might be considered problematic, in light of the strong objections to Canaanite origins claims in the other article? Anyway, I do think you could have a good point about Needler and Emberling. In what way do those two say "Palestinian" when discussing the Canaanite period? Thanks. Regards, HG | Talk 03:59, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think "region" is WP:OR. What region? Where are its boundaries? This article is about "Palestinian costumes", not Levantine costumes or Lebanese costumes or Israeli costumes.

Regarding Needler, the full title of his book by is Palestine: Ancient and Modern - A handbook and guide to the Palestinian collection of the Royal Ontario Musem of Archaeology, Toronto. In other words, Needler, throughout this book, no matter what time period he is discussing, freely uses the words "Palestinian" and "Palestine" to describe ancient and modern pottery, clothing and other artifacts. For example, when discussing events in Palestine in 1560 BCE, he says:

By this time, as might be expected with such a hodge-podge of influences, Palestinians worshipped deities of many different origins. Of these the mother goddess, a local form of the Mesopotamian Ishtar, and her consort were the most important.

Though he does sometimes use phrases such as "New Testament-Palestine" or "ancient Palestine, rather than "Palestinian" to describe historical artifacts, the fact remains that he uses "Palestine" and not "region".

Frankly, I think your concern about objections to using "Palestinian" and "Palestine" per the sources, while well-meaning, is misplaced. Scholars regularly use the words "Palestinian" and "Palestine" to discuss the history and artifacts of the region. This is unrelated to the issue of the relatively late emergence of the use of the ethnonym "Palestinian" as a national identifier among Palestinians. I encourage you to review scholarly works on artifacts, which are divorced from the political scholarship to see what I mean. Tiamut 19:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Sounds like you've got all our ducks lined up and we'll see how it flies. HG | Talk 21:35, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Random notes, Shelagh Weir (1989): Palestinian Costume, etc

Just a few random notes: As some of you may have noticed, the http://www.palestinecostumearchive.org link is no longer working. However, it is all in the http://web.archive.org ...so I have been running around wikipedia changing all the links, typically [4], [5]. If I have missed some links to please change them. (Such a pity that that site is no longer up). However, I have just got hold of Shelagh Weir (1989): Palestinian Costume, London: British Museum Publications Ltd., and I do see that just about everything in the "background" and the "costume by region" in ww.palestinecostumearchive.org was taken from Weir. Typically, the Gustaf Dalman and the Henry Baker Tristram quotes are taken from Weir. One very interesting thing about Weir´s Palestinian Costume is the way she compares customs in two well-researched villages, namely the relatively poor village of Artas with the relatively rich village of Bayt Dajan. For Artas she relies on Hilma Granqvists writings and photos. For Bayt Dajan Shelagh Weir herself together with Widad Kawar sought out refugee women from Bayt Dajan all over the Middle East... The contrast is facinating. (Oh, and can´t somebody please get me a (public domain) picture of a Bay Dajan dress? Pleeeease...I´m begging...) Also, I think some of Hilma Granqvist writing is soon so old that it could be put in public domain? Wouldn´t it be great if her writing was available in, say, Project Gutenberg? Any volunteers ;-) (I can volunteer to give a resyme of Willman´s Ideal och verklighet: Hilma Granqvists studier av "Kvinnorna i Gamla testamentet" åren 1921-1925 (Yes; I read Swedish) ------One thing this comparison does, is to show how intimately the costumes were with customs. You received/bought/made certain items for certain occations. The BIG occation was of course ones marriage; to such a degree that it is difficult/impossible to write a complete article about the costumes without having an article about Palestinian marriage customs. A woman could dress in the style that was popular at the time of her wedding for the rest of her life.... so you could not only se what village/town she was from, but also when she got married! Also: in some parts one of the most important ceremonies was the (all-female!) "going-out-to-the-well" some days after the wedding; to celebrate a girls transformation into a married woman. The very finest dress was reserved for this occation (and *not* for the wedding-day itself).

One of the subject in Weir that was not available on www.palestinecostumearchive.org is 20-30 pages about mens wear. There is especially a bit about head were, how it could/did signal political or religious affiliation ...which I think could (should?) be added to the article. The Kaffiye is just the last link in a long tradition!

Also; it is absolutely fascinating for me, (comeing from a Christian Scandinavian background) to find that the pictures I grew up with in Sunday-school, showing "the time and life of Jesus" etc, etc....that the people there were actually dressed in....Palestinian clothing! Inspired by people like William Holman Hunt (who collected Palestinian costumes when he was in "The Holy land", and the dressed all his painted Biblical figures in those dresses!

Ok, that was just a few random notes, regards, Huldra (talk) 03:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey Huldra. So happy to see you around again. Its always a pleasure running into you.

It would be great if you could place page number cites to the Weir book for any information you see in the article from there. We have a lot cited to the PCA, and since they often cite from there anyway, it would be better to use the original, where possible.

The article does need much more expansion, particularly on menswear and wedding customs and the role of embroidery in female communal relations, etc., which as you pointed out, are central to the subject of the costumes themselves. I wish I had a copy of that book! But whenever you have a chance to add something, I will gladly copy edit. Besides Shahin's book, the only books I have are pattern books in Arabic. Anyway, great find and points raised. Tiamut 03:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

By the way, about putting more detailed material on marriage customs in a separate article, that's a great idea. I'm in for helping to develop it anytime you want to. Tiamut 03:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

PS thank you for your kind words, Tiamut, but that marriage customs article has to be later (for me, at least!), perhaps after we have got Granqvists writing up on Gutenberg ;-P. I just want to also recommend Aburish, Said K.: Children of Bethany: The Story of a Palestinian Family, Indiana University Press 1988. ISBN 0-253-30676-0 for such an article! He has a fantastic detailed history about his parents (huge!) wedding in the 1930s Bethany (West Bank), and also how the customs developed. (Also with a lot about the food! Perhaps it should be recommend also for the Palestinian cuisine‎ article?) Regards, Huldra (talk) 05:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I wish we had a library in Nazareth. It would make my life so much better. Until then, I'll have to wait until my next trip out of here to visit a library a bookstore that would have such texts. Thanks though for the suggestion. Tiamut 20:00, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

For this picture: [6] palestinearchive writes: A detail of William Holman Hunt's Shadow of Death 1873 (City of Manchester Art Galleries) clearly showing a Palestinian woman's everyday handwoven indigo-dyed thob with pointed sleeves tied at the back.[7]

Weir writes about this picture: "The costume of this figure, representing Mary the mother of Jesus, is remarkably well observed, partly due, perhaps, to the fact that Hunt collected costumes during his visits to Palestine (now housed in the Royal Ontario Museum); but the way the costume is worn can only be attributed to careful observation on the spot. The dress, which is of the type worn in southern Palestine not Nazareth where this scene is set, is of handwoven indigo-dyed cotton or linen, and its pointed sleeves (irdan) are tied at the back, as Palestinian women did when working. Other details of the dress are also authentic: the patterned silk or cotton lining of the sleeves, the position and stitching of the seams, and the brown hem-binding. The head veil could be a silk zurband, a veil worn in the Nablus area and Galilee; as here, it was secured with a headband, and formed a long train down the back. The silver bracelets are of a common southern Palestinian type (haydari), and were often worn in pairs as here. The bangle above the elbow appears to be of blue glass, also common in southern Palestine, and made in the glass factories in Hebron" Huldra (talk) 03:35, 16 January 2008 (UTC) PS: Tiamut: I will try to find some of the references you ask for..

One citation:

• the Trisdam citation: H. B. Trisdam, 1865, The Land of Israel, a Journal of Travels in Palestine p. 68, quoted in Weir, 1989, p.80. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Huldra (talk • contribs) 04:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Huldra. I tried to find Trisdam in the article, but I can't. Which info are you referring exactly as being taken form him? Thanks. Tiamut —Preceding comment was added at 19:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Embroidery section

This section covers several different points. I'm wondering whether might be somewhat rearranged. It deals with motifs, amulets and imperfections, motifs, girls-marriage lifecycle, regional variations, and dyes. Also, some of the paraphrasing seems rather close to the original. E.g., source: "They also incorporated triangles--amulets-- to ward off the evil eye, a common superstition in the Middle East." us: "Triangles, used as amulets, were often used to ward off the "evil eye", a common superstition in the Middle East." (Also, that sentence comes from source #2, not 14.) Perhaps the motifs sentences can be made adjacent. Could the regional variations be moved to lead off the next section (By Region), or right beforehand with some kind of transition? thanks. HG | Talk 04:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually I'm curious about the technical side: fibers, techniques, stitches, etc. Durova^Charge! 05:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The embroidery developed very much over time. After WWI they got foreign pattern books, which became very popular. The older patters were all geometrical; if you look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Traditional_Palestinian_thobs.jpeg, the embroidery there is clearly of a newer form. But the area was really a crossroad: soooo many different styles. There are many books on the subject; go to abebooks.com and search for "Palestinian embroidery" Regards, Huldra (talk) 05:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I see a few descriptions of materials. And - just making a rough guess - some of it is probably laidwork and applique. I doubt my local library has much to offer, but I'll see. Regards, Durova^Charge! 06:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you all would consider moving the basic, descriptive part of embroidery as a subsection of what is now called "Garment Types" (maybe rename to "The Ensemble" or "Elements of the Costume")? The regional variations could be described in the regional section. The section on girl's production, marriage, etc, maybe should be part of a broader section about the role of clothing within the cultural system. Also -- shouldn't we accessorize? What about a subsection on jewelry? HG | Talk 11:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi HG. I suggest we leave jewelry to separate article entitled Palestinian jewellery. There is a a lot of information on the subject in the Needler book and there is some information in the material cited at the article on Tawfiq Canaan (focused more on amulets and talismans and glass beads and the like, but it's jewellery related nonetheless). I'd be happy to start that article and then we can link to it from here. Tiamut 19:38, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree with Tiamut: a separate article, please. Possibly Palestinian traditional jewellery? There is also a bit about it in Weir (1989), especially in connection with the head-dresses. Huldra (talk) 21:25, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Fine, though you could start here as the main article and do it as summary style spin out. Either way, the OI exhibit book has text and fine images (tho' presumably not available to us... should we ask?). HG | Talk 21:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. If you start the article I'll help get it ready for DYK. Durova^Charge! 21:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

help! first we had Palestinian marriage customs, now we have Palestinian jewellery ;-). Not that it is anything new; after I started this article 1+ year ago, I "had to" start the articles about Serene Husseini Shahid, Bayt Dajan, Bayt Jibrin, Kafr 'Ana ...a whole "supporting cast", if you like. Though it is wonderful to see how this article has grown, I would like to see the "old" "supporting cast" up to a higher standard... HG: By "the OI exhibit book", do you mean Weir, 1989? A lot of the pictures there are from the Matson collection, which I believe is free for us(??) Se my comments on Durovas talk-page.

Not Weir. By OI, I meant the recent Oriental Inst exhibit book by Iman Saca. pdf available. HG | Talk 00:48, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

On another note; shouldn´t we have a {{Palestinians}} at the top of the article? Regards, Huldra (talk) 21:59, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) It's not unusual for article improvement drives to sprout new articles. There's no particular deadline for improving them, although it's often fun to get them up to DYK standards in the first week. For that it takes at least one source, 1500 characters or more (about 300 words), and a DYK hook. An image that looks good at 100 pixels often helps. The folks at DYK get a lot of image submissions that are either buildings or people's heads, so a close-up of jewelry should get a positive response. Durova^Charge! 22:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Speaking still (are we?) of relation to other articles, shouldn't this article have some kind of summary and link to the Palestinian section of Keffiyah? HG | Talk 00:48, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. Durova^Charge! 20:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] the "Central Palestine" section

The last part of the "Central Palestine" section (At least everything from the sentence: "In the 1930s, a Bethlehem...") is, AFAIK, only about Bayt Dajan. (The "Bethlehem visitor" was named Maneh Hazbun, and she wasn´t really a visitor, but went to live in Bayt Dajan when her brother bought some orange-groves there. Lots and lots about her in Weir, 1989.) I suggest we move this part to the Bayt Dajan-article; I think it is slightly too detailed to be in a "general" article about Palestinian costumes (at least when we are nearly drowning in information!) What do others think? Regards, Huldra (talk) 21:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that's a great idea Huldra. I agree too with your comment below about how we've just "barely scratched the surface". There is so much we can yet add. But I do think we have a good solid overview of some the major points now, so going for the GA is not a bad thing. There's no need for us to rush onward to an FA after that. We can take our time and give the subject the full attention it deserves. Tiamut^talk 02:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The introduction and foreign

There's still room to expand this (it wouldn't be a bad thing to double the introduction in length), yet I've made a first attempt at some changes, mostly copyediting. Please review for appropriateness and neutrality. Durova^Charge! 21:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposed changes:

Palestinian costumes are the traditional clothing worn by Palestinians. Foreign travelers to Palestine in late 19th and early 20th centuries often commented on the rich variety of costumes among the Palestinian people, and particularly among the fellaheen or village women. Many of the handcrafted garments were richly embroidered and the creation and maintenance of these items played a significant role in the lives of the region's women.

Traditional costumes reflected a woman's economic status, whether married or single, and the town or district of origin. Specific local styles were distinctive enough that, until the 1940s, a knowledgeable oberver could determine a woman's locale and status from the fabric, colours, cut, and embroidery motifs (or lack thereof) of her apparel.^[1] Men's apparel was more uniform in style, with some variation by locale, status, and age. Headgear has been the chief distinguishing feature of Palestinian men's costume both traditionally and in the present era.^[2]

Alhough regional local and regional variations largely disappeared after the Nakba, Palestinian embroidery and costume continue to be produced in new forms and worn alongside Islamic and Western fashions.

Durova: definitely an improvement IMO, -nice "flow" Huldra (talk) 22:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Good work. I think it's appropriate to lead with the "rich variety" -- which you say differs by region and social setting. Maybe move up some of the factual aspects, like the main types of clothing. Now an editorial WP:OR thought about the intro (which Durova inherited, so it's not about her). What would Edward Said say about the intro? Notice how it's set up from the perspective of foreign travelers to Palestine?! Rather Orientalist, eh? (Look, such exotic costumes....) To be sure, many of our best sources may be based on Orientalist research but I'm not sure we are bound to put it in this context. My 2 1/2 cents. Thanks again, Durova. HG | Talk 23:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, if someone has published a Saidian analysis on this topic it would be a fantastic addition to the article. Meta-analysis is lacking in a lot of Wikipedia articles; that would be the kind of direction that would make this FA-worthy. Excellent observation. Durova^Charge! 23:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I did find a somewhat oblique meta-analysis from "Israeli and Palestinian Postcards: Presentations of National Self" by Tim Jon Semmerling cached. He writes: "Chapter 6 looks at the work of Maha Saca. Saca intends to promote a national self abroad and is committed to inculcating knowledge of a national self at home. Saca tries to undo damage done to the Palestinian national self by postcards that promote Orientalized portrayals of Palestinians. With the recasting of antique objects and the artistry of Palestinian embroidery and dressmaking, Saca tries to recapture the postcard image of the Palestinian man and woman from the hands of Palphot. Saca also shows that, as much as the postcard can convey semiotically with photographs, its effectiveness requires the control of text on its verso and of contextualized display in staged heritage experiences." (emphasis added) Ok, so now where will you add that?! (lol) HG | Talk 23:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Could you adjust the opening paragraph for neutrality in that case? And I'm curious what Palestinians have written about their own textile heritage, particularly from the 1940s and earlier. It appears that many of these women were illiterate (they embroidered instead of going to school) so it may be difficult to find sources where they discuss the subject in their own words. It's not particularly a problem for this article if the sources themselves tend to originate from one group of people rather than another, but it would be good to make the reader aware of any significant imalance. This is the kind of depth that sets GAs and FAs apart from other articles. The challenge when things reach this level is to restrain oneself from venturing into original research. Durova^Charge! 23:57, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I adjusted the second sentence. I agree about avoiding OR. Still, perhaps we could have a section on sources of information (or, historiography?). Within that section, couldn't we state that most of the early data came from foreign travelers and Orientalist scholars? Then, w/o giving undue emphasis, we could briefly mention Saca's work and Semmerling. Readers can fill in the blanks that would probably be left. Encyclopedic yet making space for the lit-crit pov. Ok? HG | Talk 00:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Found some more on the postcards and postmodern critiques. Embodying the nation: Maha Saca"s post-intifada postcards Annelies Moors in Ethnic and Racial Studies, Volume 23, Number 5, 1 September 2000 , pp. 871-887(17). (Abstract says: "It is argued that both the production and display of embroidered dresses and the particular ways in which these are presented on one set of picture postcards are part of the material formation of the Palestinian nation. Whereas the dresses on these postcards draw attention to a rural heritage that stands for territory and rootedness, the women-bodies presenting these dresses, both in their appearance and through the act of public presentation, express urban modernity. Such a style of representation avoids associations of the rural with “backwardness” and enables the inclusion of elements of the rural in the modern national project.")

Similarly (but less sympatico): "The Palestinian Peasant as National Signifier" Ted Swedenburg Anthropological Quarterly, Vol. 63, No. 1, Tendentious Revisions of the Past in the Construction of Community. (Jan., 1990), pp. 18-30. (Excerpt: "Let me now describe some cultural artifacts which convey something of the look and feel of this imagined rural way of life. Take a series of paint- ings of Palestinian villages by West-Bank artists, which in 1984-85 were for sale as postcard repro- ductions in the bookstores of Arab East Jerusalem. ... Farmers in qumbazes and kujyas (stereotypical peasant garb) guide plows, pulled by donkeys, through open fields. Women in brightly embroidered gowns deli- cately balance clay jugs of well-water on their heads and bake unleavened bread over small wood- burning ovens. None of the signs of modern life one encounters more frequently in today's West-Bank villages-tractors spewing diesel exhaust.... Although drawn in a representational style and given titles designating actual villages, the paintings' settings are difficult to situate temporally. It is as if the artists had selected residual slices of current rural life and blocked out manifes- tations of the industrial contemporary so as to de- pict a present solidly rooted in pre-modern culture. The villages thus rendered seem to inhabit a mythical rural past which is at the same time continuous with the present (Wright 1985: 176). The artwork abolishes the line separating past and present to evoke a timeless Palestinian tradition and culture. The images have a Biblical feel about them too, suggesting that the artists draw upon themes and procedures utilized by the photographers who pro- duced postcard visions of a timeless Holy Land for Western pilgrim-tourists earlier in this century (Moors and Machlin 1987; Graham-Brown 1980). Using similar images and methods, they convey the vision of a pristine Palestinian Arab culture rather than an unchanging Holy Land. These apparently mythicising and essentializing evocations of cultural authenticity, therefore, must be understood against the backdrop of the colonial reality.) Sorry for length but I figured you all would want to see it. Reduce font? Thanks. HG | Talk 14:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Historiography and collections

A historiography section sounds like an excellent idea. Durova^Charge! 00:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps historiography can be merged or at least adjacent to the Collections of Palestinian costumes section, which already deals with how the collections where assembled. Oh, a related or subsidiary idea: perhaps a heading/section on the Depictions & Uses of costumes? There you could assemble the political uses, the postcards, the Orientalist uses, etc. Don't think that would be Synth. Somewhat like various articles about Topic and the Topic in Literature/Culture. HG | Talk 00:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Could this be merged into the "Collection" section? To me it looks as if the earliest studies were mostly by those interested in Bible studies, Hilma Granqvist is a typical example. Huldra (talk) 00:29, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Ghada Karmi has a few interesting observations (in her "Search of Fatima"-book) ..how she, I think it was in the 1980´s London, was given pieces of traditional Palestinian costumes from an English fellow Pal. solidarity workers newly back from the West Bank.... Basically, she was told (and I´m quoting from memory here, some time since I read the book, and I don´t have it here with me now) that this was hers, "Palestinian".. Of cause, she, her sister and her mother had never used anything but Western dress. Huldra (talk) 00:41, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey everyone, I just want to note that I restored the info and "foreign travellers" in the lead. I think this is significant since a lot of what we know about Palestinian costume in the 19th century comes from their descriptions. Also the removal of the refernce to them made it sound as though Palestinian costume was only worn in the 19th and 20th centuries. Tiamut^talk 18:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Tiamut, I'm glad you've explained your reasoning. When you reverted my edit of that 2nd sentence, I felt personally frustrated because it was first discussed above and I only did it after Durova's encouragement. Sorry if we acted prematurely. If you feel wedded to that wording, well, I guess I would feel strange arguing, as I did above, against the foreign perspective with you, since I would have expected someone in your shoes to be making this argument. So it goes. HG | Talk 19:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi HG. I felt I owed you an explanation after re-reviewing the talk page on the issue (somehow I missed it before in all the flurry of activity). Anyway, it's nice of you both to be aware of Orientalism, but I don't think it's Orientalist to note foreign travellers wrote a lot about Palestinian costume in the lead. Tiamut^talk 20:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Meanwhile, both Huldra and I suggested merging the Collections section with some historiography. How about this for a heading: "The Collection and Historiography of Palestinian Costumes"? Or, add depictions, so we can go into postcards and other uses? Maybe: "Costume Collection, Research, and Display" thanks. HG | Talk 19:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the second one is good, since it would be nice to have latitude to discuss popular representations as well. Tiamut^talk 20:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, let's try it and others can tweak it as needed. HG | Talk 20:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes; I also like the second option. I would also suggest that somebody took The Shadow of Death picture (by William Holman Hunt) and cut away Jesus, ie cropped it down to what is pictured here:[8] Then we could insert the picture of "Mary" in the "Costume collection etc" part, with the looong description of her dress (see above: under "Random notes Shelagh Weir (1989)), cited to Weir (1989) p. 15. That, IMO, could be an interesting illustration of the first "modern" Western interest in Palestinian clothing: it was born out of an interest in "Bible-studies". Regards, Huldra (talk) 21:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe add this point with a link to Bible study (Christian). (messed up link in edit summary). Tx, HG | Talk 21:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

• Cropped like this?[9] There is a huge white space between the first image in the introduction all the way down to the next section, couldn't that space be used for images? Funkynusayri (talk) 21:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
  • That is perfect! And yes: there is empty space at the start of the article, however, I would not have this picture there. This picture (IMO) definitely belong in the "Costume Collection, Research, and Display" section. Could you put it in there? I can add the text, if you like. Regards, Huldra (talk) 21:25, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Yeah, I didn't mean that exact picture should be there, but that any picture could. I'll put it in and let you give it a caption. Funkynusayri (talk) 21:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some notes

Great improvements to the introduction! It's really impressive how far this article has come in just a few days. A few things I noticed tonight:

• If an entire paragraph cites the same source, then it's best to write a single citation at the end of that paragraph rather than multiple citations at each sentence. I could help to convert that if no one objects to this change.
• The "Social and gender variations" list should be converted to prose because GA and FA reviewers prefer that.
• Look for ways to expand or merge short paragraphs. That looks better at GAC and FAC time.
• I noticed several Palestinian cultral articles at "see also". Should I try my hand at creating a navigational template for Palestinian culture?

At the rate this is going we'll probably be ready for GAC soon. It may take weeks waiting for a review, so in the meantime let's keep making this better. If the article gets accepted for GA let's put it to peer review next and set our sights on FA. Keep up the good work. Durova^Charge! 05:58, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

BTW I checked with my local reference librarian today about getting material through interlibrary loan. The area where I'm most likely to be of use is the technical side of embroidery, so book recommendations for that area would be very welcome. Also I'm familiar with Edward Said, so if you name some specific academic works that apply his concept of Orientalism to writings about Palestinian costumes, I'd be glad to request some of that material also. Cheers, Durova^Charge! 06:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Durova. Great work all around! To respond to the points you raised:

• You are of course right about the citations. I tend to cite every sentence due to the tendency of editors to delete uncited material that they find controversial. I never know what they are going to find controversial, so I tend to overdo it. Thanks for fixing that and I'll keep it in mind in the future.
• I switched the Social and Gender Variations section over to prose, per your suggestions here.
• I tried to expand a short paragraph in the lead. I'm thinking of expanding it further to include the European influences in the early 20th century (pattern magazines, pockets, etc.) I'll try to locate other paragraphs that could use expansion or merging as well.
• A Palestinian culture template may not be necessary, given that the Template:Palestinians has a section on culture.

Finally, I'll try to find some references by Edward Said to Orientalism in descriptions of costume etc. I think I have a copy of Orientalism in my personal library, though since we recently moved things are still in disarray. If anything does turn up, I'll let you know.

Thanks for all your help. Tiamut^talk 16:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we should keep the tight-knit citations in place for now, as sentences and text is getting restructured somewhat. HG | Talk 16:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The sentence-by-sentence version is still in the history. Sorry if that causes trouble; basically I think we're almost ready for good article nomination. I'm going to give things a polish, see about creating that template, and double check current GA standards. It normally takes several weeks for GA review (they're backlogged) so let's keep on improving and set our sights on FA. The higher level analysis we've talked about adding would matter for an FA drive.

And thinking more about FA, one of the discussions from this page is probably the seed of a section that should be in the article. Namely, what does "Palestinian" mean in the context of traditional apparel? To brainstorm on some of the directions that could take, there's the distinction between the historic region and the emergent ethnic/nationalist Palestinian identity. To some extent, nationalist authors probably do project ethnic/nationalist tones and traditions backward in ways that - in a strictly academic sense - are somewhat questionable. Most national identities are constructed in about that way. For instance, both France and Germany claim Charlemagne as one of their own historic kings (and the modern notions of France and Germany probably meant nothing to him). And a hundred years ago, Panamanian efforts to define national identity would have offended most Venezuelans, since Panama was newly independent and had been a northern province of Venezuela. It isn't our job to proclaim which formulation is "true", just identify what "Palestinian costumes" means to different experts and give appropriate weight to each school of thought. Durova^Charge! 18:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Durova, thanks for the way you keep moving this forward. As you may know, there's a long-running dispute over describing Palestinian identity at Talk:Palestinian people. I hope again I'm not sounding negative, but a section on national identity could attract controversy. In principle, I agree fully with what you say about how to handle it (rely on experts and give due weight). Thanks. HG | Talk 19:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate you desire for positive co-operation. just want to let you know, i have no plans to contribute anything here. my interest in this topic and set of issues relates to my own community. any cooperation I do usuaulyl relates to political matters. I respect this article's subject matter, but don't really plan to get involved here on way or the other. i just wanted to acknowledge the suggestion which you made for future collaboration. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 19:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Considering that it is not an article related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but rather a cultural article fundamentally related to Palestinian culture, I don't really want to see the issue get needlessly politicized, especially with a GA review underway. As a result, I don't think we should get into a terminological discussion of "Palestinian" here. Its already covered in Palestinian people and Definitions of Palestine and Palestinian. Perhaps some notes on the use of "Palestinian" in scholarly circles to decribe objects in the region would be good to add before the FAC step. But for now, I'd prefer to let sleeping dogs lie. Tiamut^talk 20:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

How does this sound? For the potentially sensitive areas begin with draft sections (either here or in user space) and solicit feedback before bringing them into the live article. Also, if newcomers arrive with "hot" opinions, let's encourage the build - criticize - build approach in a polite and supportive way. Durova^Charge! 21:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, aside from restating my or Tiamut's concerns, I will say that I'm open to commenting any draft you might want to float. And agree about newcomers, of course. HG | Talk 21:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It'd probably take me two or three weeks to get sources through interlibrary loan. There's a courtesy lending agreement among the local public and university libraries that goes a bit faster, but this is the other side of the world and there might not be much information locally. Durova^Charge! 22:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Durova; I am not sure which books you are looking for, but here are the ones I have/have read:

• Omar, Abed Al-Samih Abu (1986). Traditional Palestinian embroidery and jewellry, MY OPINION: don´t bother. Just about totally uninteresting -almost all (or all) costumes he wrote about were post-48, made in Israel.
• Stillman, Yedida Kalfon (1979). Palestinian costume and jewellry, MY OPINION: definitely interesting, but perhaps more on the village level. Stilman don´t paint the "broad lines" as much, instead she goes through and discuss every(?) single garment in the MOIFA collection. A gold-mine for those, say, who are interested in villages "depopulated" i the nakba.
• Weir, Shelagh (1989). Palestinian Costume MY OPINION: this is one (perhaps *the* one) of the standard works, but it really could do with some updating, though. Weir has published on Palestinian costumes and embroidery since 1970, and is *very* knowledgeable. I think I can recommend any book by her.

I just checked with the local University library (It is online), and they have both the books Weir published in 1970, (one about embroidery, the other on weaving), + the Völger, Gisela, Welck, Karin v. Hackstein, Katharina (1987). Pracht und Geheimnis: Kleidung und Schmuck aus Palästina und Jordanien : Katalog der Sammlung Widad Kawar. So I could get those three books easily. (How much I have time to do, is another matter!) Regards, Huldra (talk) 02:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good article candidate

Looks like we're ready to give this a try. I've nominated here. Let's keep improving - it might be over a month before the reviewer gets here. Thanks for all the hard work! Setting sights on FAC... :) Durova^Charge! 20:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I have no experience with the "Good article" process, but as the article is now I still see so much missing: mens clothing, (especially how they "signalled" not only religious, but also political aligiances with their head-wear) , more on bedouin "color" codes (say, a widow could signal to the world whether she was interested to marry again or not by the colour of her embroidery! Neat, eh?). We have just scratched the surface.... Regards, Huldra (talk) 02:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is this a mistake?

Under the "Costume Collection, Research, and Display" section: "For example, the painter William Holman Hunt pulled together a collection now housed at the Royal Ontario Museum [32] Another painter of Biblical subjects at that time was Willam Hole, who collected Palestinian costumes with the advice of David Whiting, an expert collector of Palestinian village costume."

It appears to me that "Willam Hole" could simply be a misspelling of William Holman. Funkynusayri (talk) 21:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

No, Funky: it is not a mistake; I added that, it was taken from Weir, 1989. There is also a picture of one of Willam Hole´s paintings (in Weir), and the style is somewhat different from Holman Hunt´s style. (Holman Hunt´s style is far more "crisp", I believe that is the English word). I also did a quick google-search, under "images": it looks as if Willam Hole specialized in Biblical themes (not *very* high standard paintings, IMO -I guess there is a reason why WP has article on William Holman Hunt, but not on Willam Hole. Regards, Huldra (talk) 22:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC))

• Ah, now I see, heh, the text here says "Willam", without the second i, so I searched for that on Google and found nothing, that's the reason I got confused. I'll change it in the article. Funkynusayri (talk) 22:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
  • My bad! I have now changed it. Huldra (talk) 22:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Just added cite to an article that mentions both artists, among others of that ilk. Do you think maybe the quote under the painting (nice work!) is too long? HG | Talk 22:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

HG: yes, it is a bit long. However, it is all the details which really tells us well Holman Hunt studied the costumes. Perhaps we should put some (or a lot) of those details down in the reference (together with "Weir, 1989. p.15")? Please feel free to change it. Regards Huldra (talk) 22:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

In Weir there is a picture of this painting by Hole: [10] (The white figure (=Jesus?) is cut out). Weir writes about this painting: "The women are portrayed in Bethlehem costumes, including the "green" dress (thob ikhdari), the embroidered veil (Khirkah) and the coat (qumbaz), probably of cotton (dima), brown overcoat (´abayeh), red tarbush and striped turban (laffeh). The authenticity of the costumes (for the late 19th century, but certainly not for Biblical times) is due to the fact that Hole was advised by David Whiting, a collector of, and expert on, Palestinian village costume." (From William Hole, The life of Jesus of Nazareth, 1906, plate 47). Quoted from Weir (1989), p.14.

In other words: If anybody can get hold of Hole´s: The life of Jesus of Nazareth from 1906 and upload plate 47 (or find a free image on the web?) ..we could add that, too. Regards, Huldra (talk) 22:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

• I can find many similar images by him, but the only version of that specific painting is always that damn watermarked one from "Biblepicturegallery". I'll continue searching though. Funkynusayri (talk) 22:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Here's the only other version I could find, can it be used?[11] From here (number 47):[12] Funkynusayri (talk) 23:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Nice find, Funky, and yes, I think it can be used. You have to crop the picture so that just the three people are in it..and please wait a few moments before you introduce it to the article, as I intend to reduce the caption on the Holman picture first. Huldra (talk) 23:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

• Here, it's ready for you to put it in. Funkynusayri (talk) 23:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some nice pictures from before 1946

I'll crop them and upload them to Commons if any of them are needed. They were taking by an Australian photographer during the world wars (photos taken or published in Australia before 1955 are in the public domain).

[13]

[14] Closer:[15]

[16]

[17] Lighter version:[18]

[19]

[20]

[21]

[22]

By the way, don't we need some images of male costumes? I think I can get some from there too. Funkynusayri (talk) 22:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Any chance of getting higher resolution versions? Durova^Charge! 01:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• The images are in the public domain, but I'm not sure whether the owners of the site would provide larger digital versions of the images, as they seem to charge for physical copies of them. But well, we could maybe ask them to provide larger scans of specific images we may like. Anyhow, some of the images linked to earlier under "List of some possibly useful Matson collection photos" are in relatively high resolution and could maybe replace some of the images already in, like the "tourist" photo, or maybe just be put in places with no images, which there are a lot of. Funkynusayri (talk) 01:54, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
  • The material you've found looks fine for illustrative purposes. I often restore images for WP:FPC, so if you happen to locate an outstanding shot in a file at least 1000px on a side, please let me know. Durova^Charge! 03:56, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• I'll notify you if I find any. The one on the right here is quite nice, but I don't know if it lives up to the criteria. For this article colour images were requested, and I found this colour image from 1890/1900 of "Muslim women in the Holy Land": [23] More images: [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] Funkynusayri (talk) 01:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Gorgeous, but claims copyright. Durova^Charge! 04:11, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
• Heh, they can't claim copyright on an image from the late 19th century, it has automatically expired if we follow pretty much every copyright law in the world. Funkynusayri (talk) 10:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] JSTOR additions

Hi. I searched JSTOR for "Palestinian costumes" and added a few references with accompanying text, including stuff on Weir, the Israel Museum, and hijab in Gaza. I suppose in the section under headdress we should mention hijab, too. If this is a controversial/larger issue, then perhaps info on Gaza could be put into hijab and summary-style linked from here?

(Side question: I also found: "Women and Dower Property in Twentieth-Century Palestine: The Case of Jabal Nablus" (Annelies Moors. Islamic Law and Society, Vol. 1, No. 3, Gender, Family, and the Courts in Muslim Societies. (1994), pp. 301-331.) Very interesting, maybe at most a sentence here in section about social context of costume. However, I couldn't find an article for the bulk of the info here. Are there articles about Palestinian social practices, like marriage, role of Islamic law, etc?) Thanks. HG | Talk 12:32, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

HG, I edited the JSTOR addition to read:

Though the exhibit did not address contemporary politics and was positively received, it subtly presented the Palestinians as the dispossessed, eliciting criticism of Weir for supporting the Palestinian cause.^[3]

I can't access the full text of the article. Could you add who criticized the exhibit? It's always good to attribute criticism, rather than makin it sound like its universal in character. Similarly, I attributed the critique of Orientalized portrayals in postcards directly to Semmerling, since its not clear that other critical scholars share in his assessment.

I also moved the hijab text to the top of the post-1948 section and cut it down a bit for flow and because this article's focus is traditional costume, and not contemporary fashions.

PS. I'm typing with one hand, so please be patient with me.Tiamut^talk 13:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Good luck w/yr elbow. Only Ahmed reported the criticism, though I see no reason why he wouldn't be reliable. He wrote: "A sharp attack on Weir (including a letter in the press) for what was seen as an attempt to project the cause of the Palestinians was not surprising. But the overwhelming reponse has been extremely positive." In terms of Semmerling, I guess the real question is if any of us have looked at the Maha Saca work he's analyzed. Thanks for your revisions and explanations. HG | Talk 14:11, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

PS You handled Semmerling well. Two additional sources, giving you excerpts if you don't have access, I've added above under the Orientalism discussion. Worth a look. thanks. HG | Talk 14:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

HG; I assume Semmerling refers to pictures/postcards like the ones at PHC homepage, take a look at [30]. (BTW, I noted that one of these pictures (and I think it was this one [31]) participated in a Unesco competition last year, about which postcard best illustrated/helped promote tourism.) Semmerling does have a point, as an example just look at the ladies dressed in Bethlehem dresses: now, if you look at old pictures of Bethlehem streets, (or read the litterature), you will know that the sha'weh headdress would always be completely concealed by the white veil. However, in all the PHC photos the sha'weh is exposed. The way I see it; one strives more for photogenic motives than historical correctness. (However, I´m not sure that is always a bad thing! Tradition is also an evolving process.) Regards, Huldra (talk) 14:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Huldra, glad to hear from you and your sense that Semmerling seems reasonable. But, though this may be apparent, just want to mention that I'm not advocating Semmerling's (or others') analysis, I just think it would add to the quality of the article. And yes, tradition is never static. The more things change.... Best wishes, HG | Talk 14:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi HG. thanks for your elbow wishes. I think we should change my edit to better reflect Ahmed's tex. How about: "According to Akbar Ahmed, the exhibit received an overwhelmingly positive response, though Weir was sharply attacked for what was seen as an attempt to project the Palestinian cause."

If you like it, please change the article to read as such (save me some work in my incapacitated position:). About the stuff on Orientalism, I'll respond above. Tiamut^talk 15:32, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Central region

Maybe this is irrelevant, or maybe it will help structure this section. Currently lead para states: "Three distinct styles of Palestinian costume..." What are these three? (Is it Ramallah, Bethlehem, ....) At a minimum, I'd suggesting mentioning them upfront. Is it possible that the three styles would help structure the whole section? Otherwise, the section should be structured by the four (or more) towns mentioned at the outset. Thanks. HG | Talk 17:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey HG. I think the "three distinct styles" refers to the the village, townspeople, and bedouin attire. Village people wearing dresses with local embroidery patterns or other distinctive identifiers according to the town they lives in, townspeoples adopting more contemporary Western fashions, and the bedouin wearing dresses with patterns that identify by their tribal affiliations. (Very rough summary, but I think you catch my drift). Tiamut^talk 12:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   There is a few instances of parenthetical citation in “Post-1948”; this should be corrected to in-line citations to match the majority of the article.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   It would be a significant improvement for the artcile on the way to FA to include more information about men's clothing if at all possible.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   I only wish that there were some photographs or paintings of men’s clothing.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   jackturner3 (talk) 20:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the pass, and thanks everybody for great work here! Durova^Charge! 23:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Restored image

Funkynusayri found a wonderful high resolution version of this at the Library of Congress and pinged me for a restoration. So the new version is in the article now and we'll probably conominate for featured picture candidacy. What eyes! Durova^Charge! 23:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Site about Levantine, including Palestinian, costumes

• This site is maybe useful, there's a lot of text which could be used as references, and the images are PD-Lebanon: http://almashriq.hiof.no/general/600.technology/640/646/costumes_of_the_Levant/

It's all from a book published in lebanon in 1955. I'm sure there was overlap in the use of costumes worn in different parts of the Levant, so a certain description might not be exclusive to the specific place mentioned. Funkynusayri (talk) 22:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)