Talk:Pale ale

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This article says it's another name for bitter. However Bitter (beer) suggests they're closely related but not identical. Can anyone clarify? Friday 03:51, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I have always understood that Pale Ale is bitter in a bottle. Bob Palin 19:15, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
According to my tome (Stephen Snyder, "The Brewmasters Bibe") the two names are used interchangably by the brewing industry, and the final name of a product is often whatever the marketing department thinks it should be. BUT - purists, such as CAMRA, feel that Bitter should always be on tap, although several gold medal bitters have been in bottle form. The BJCG has separate categories for pale ale and bitter, so I am inclined to keep them separate.Allegrorondo 15:00, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
As far as I remember, according to the book "Beer, the story of the pint" by Martyn Cornell, at the beginning Pale ale was the bottled beer, but customers at the pub used to ask for a "bitter beer2, since there were no signs to point that its name was "Pale ale". So "Pale ale" and "bitter" were the same thing. Then some English brewers started making a beer that was not a Pale ale, but had a bitter taste, so they called it "bitter", too. That is why it is possible to say that a Pale ale is always a Bitter but the opposite is not true, thus the Pale ale is nowadays a particular type of Bitter. Alejo2083 08:23, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Pale Ale is born from IPA. Various economic considerations made selling the beer that George Hodgeson was making difficult in England, but easy in India. The style caught on (after several decades) and was early called "India Pale Ale". "India" was eventually dropped from the label by many brewers. Over time, the recipes became less strong in both hops and malt. "Pale Ale" and "IPA" and "India Pale Ale" were all used more or less interchangably. The first known uses of "Bitter" arrived around the 19th century but the term only gained currency in England after WWII. "Bitter" is mostly used interchangable with "pale ale" today, while today "IPA" is usually used for stronger, hoppier beers that are otherwise similar in style. Among people who are looking for ways to avoid confusion when talking about all the sub-styles of the pale ale family, there has been a recent trend toward using "bitter" to describe lower alcohol pale-ale-type beers (3-4.5%), "pale ale" for the middle range (4.5-6%) and "india pale ale" for the higher range (>6%). However, IPA is usually required to be hoppier than other examples of the pale-ale family, all of which are pretty hoppy beers.philosofool 17:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Question: Does Bitter=Pale Ale?

I know there has been a disucssion on this before, but I just want to continue, seeing as both of the pages are still nearly identical. An user above says that there are "bitters" that aren't Pale Ales, but this isn't really reflected at all on the Bitter page or this page at all (just that naming conventions have changed over time). Personally I think that there is no need for duplicating the information, and that the Bitter page should either be merged with pale ale, or completely revamped removing much of the information that pretains to the 'pale ale' version of the brew (as it already appears here). Another side question would be the light ale page should just be merged with either the pale ale page or the bitter page, and if the need arises made into it's own page at a later time.

Think of my merging suggestions as reigning in the random information into one central location to be more concise, and hence be more informative. Radagast83 07:27, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it should be that way, but some total know-nothing is going to shit a horse if you try it.philosofool 17:46, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coopers Pale Ale

Coopers Pale Ale is Australia's best known Pale Ale. It has spawned a variety of similar products from other breweries in Australia. Many breweries had stopped making genuine pale ales and had begun to concentrat on lagers. The increasing popularity of Coopers Pale Ale has seen breweries revisit this market segment. Coopers brewery has continued with traditional ales since the inception of the brewery in 1862. Ozdaren 02:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

None of that is in particular special. Bottle conditioning isn't unusual, there's nothing about the formulation that makes it stand out, stylistically nobody, as far as I know, has ever proposed "Australian pale ale" as a style with its own traditions. BeerAdvocate rates it a highly average 77, RateBeer a less-inspiring 29.
The pale ales noted on the page, though, which we can certainly discuss, are generally recognized as exemplars of their particular styles. All are not just well-respected but long-established as such exemplars.
Here's what the Coopers page says about the beer:

Guaranteed to turn heads, this is the beer that inspired a new generation of ale drinkers. With its fruity character, and robust flavour, Coopers Pale Ale is perfect for every occasion.

Naturally fermented in the 'Burton-on-Trent' style, a secondary fermentation creates the trademark sediment that gives 'Pale' its fine cloudy appearance. This cloudy residue can be stirred through the beer by tipping or rolling the bottle before drinking.[1]

--03:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Interesting stuff. Thanks for the time taken to look up those links. Perhaps Coopers pale ale is an Australian pale ale but has not been categorised as such yet. It is certainly the style that Southwark pale ale and a few others imitated. It's interesting to read the comment stating it isn't a pale ale. Australian beers have traditionally retained the names of their British forebears whilst moving on in style and brewing process. It is my understanding that this beer has been brewed in this style for over a century.

For me, aside from the sheer pleasure of drinking the sparkling and pale ales of Messrs Cooper & Sons, a fascinating subject to ponder is the relation of these ales to their English and Belgian cousins. The similarities are there, but the Cooper's beers have 'morphed' into something entirely new.[2]

Ozdaren 07:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
In a away this mirrors the changes made to the Australian wine inustry which after pressure from the French stopped using traditional style names (eg. champaign) and started using varietal names or Australian geographic desriptors. Pale ale in Australia is known and made with Coopers pale ale as the gold standard. I suppose Coopers used the description 'made in the Burton on Trent style' because it appeals to an international market. I'm sure there are many othere ales that also have origins in traditional British styles but have developed for a century and a half elsewhere. Australians are not as assertive as their cousins from the Americas regarding having their countries name. Perhaps it is time to have Australian pale ale as a description. Ozdaren 20:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Find a substantial number of trade publications or other scholarly sources that refer to Australian Pale Ale as a style, then. Otherwise, it's unsupported. --Stlemur 21:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Altbier

There is a small edit war starting over Altbier. User:Michael Zimmermann added Altbier to this article, Stlemur removed it. I have restored it. Stlemur removed it again. I have now left a note for Stlemur saying: Altbier is known to be a pale ale. I have cited Michael Jackson saying that British bitter and Altbier are very similiar. That reference should be enough. I do not wish to overload the article with more references saying the same thing, though it might be worthwhile to include a comment and source giving a different opinion. Albiers are commonly compared to British bitters/pale ale - the only notable difference being the period of cold maturation after fermentation. The malt grist will vary (though not as much as the malt grist of beers within the Bitter spectrum), but will contain a majority of pale malt. I am wondering if you are thinking of something else? Even though it is called an "Old beer", the designation didn't come into use until the 1800s, and the "old" meant traditional, in contrast to the modern pale lagers that were becoming popular in Germany - in the same way that CAMRA used the term Real Ale. If you think of Altbier as the 19th century German term for traditional beer in the same way that CAMRA used Real Ale as the 20th century British term for traditional ale, you would be getting a fair impression of the origin and meaning of the name. Horst Dornbusch is a person who makes huge claims for Albier (saying it has a longer history than technically possible, etc) and when I get home I'll look in a couple of his books that I have and see if I can find something interesting that might be added for balance. If you have any sources that you know of that might add something new, that would be helpful as well. SilkTork *SilkyTalk 15:59, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The source you cite by Jackson does not say that pale ale and altbier are similar. Here's the exact quote:

The ales of Britain and Belgium (where they are sometimes known as speciales) and the top-fermenting, copper coloured Altbier of DŸsseldorf and nearby towns have a shared history as Western European hold-outs against the tide of lager that has spent a century and a half rolling in from Central Europe. These styles are very similar: the British cask ale perhaps the most delicate, often low in gravity and accented toward hop bitterness; the speia1es Beige (sometimes bottle-conditioned) yeastier and spicier; the German Altbier usually cleaner (thanks to a period of cold maturation) and slightly malt-accented.

That's it. That's all. No qualification to pale ale or bitter or anything -- just to "cask ale", "traditional ales", "regional British ales". I think it's a total misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the source to say that it draws a parallel. --Stlemur (talk) 00:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Scotch Ale and Winter Warmer

I don't understand why these are appear in an article called Pale Ale when both are dark in colour. The Winter Warmer used to typify the style, Young's Winter Warmer, is a Burton in style. Burton Strong Ale that is, a completely different style from Burton Pale Ale.Patto1ro (talk) 08:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Definitions

This article needs:

  1. A clear, concise definition of what is and is not a pale ale
  2. said definition drawn without modification from a scholarly, referenced source.

Otherwise we will keep arguing forever about what beer styles go here and never actually improve the article. --Stlemur (talk) 05:54, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

  • It seems pretty obvious that dark beers don't belong here. Patto1ro (talk) 06:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually, Stlemur, I partially agree with you here. The problem is that the standards you mention are so randomly applied. And, where I don't agree: "If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, looks like a duck..." (if you know what I mean) Mikebe (talk) 10:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

As for what sources we can use to find a definition, I'll throw out Pale Ale by Terry Foster; I don't know the specific book but some of the other volumes in the series, while I grant they do have a lot of homebrewing information, are well-researched, well-cited secondary sources.

The official CAMRA definition is so complete a muddle as to be useless -- OG at least 1040 or ABV at least 4.0%, "golden or pale bronze in colour", but nothing to say how the style relates to bitter or golden ale and excluding low-ABV beers sold as pale ales like Deuchars IPA -- I don't think it's an IPA either but it was also Champion Beer of Britain and won that award as a Bitter.

As far as I know (but correct me if I'm wrong), the historical definition of pale ale is an ale brewed mostly with kilned pale malt, in contrast to something whose base malt is amber malt or brown malt. This definition, though, would include almost all the ale produced in not just Britain but the whole world today, including porters and stouts. --Stlemur (talk) 10:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Surely we can exclude beers that are dark, even without a detailed definition?Patto1ro (talk) 13:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
How dark is too dark? I'll bet you I can find a strong bitter or IPA that tops 50 SRM... --Stlemur (talk) 16:06, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
That would be an exception; Scotch Ale and Winter Warmer are by definition dark. Terry Foster in "Pale Ale" (page 28) gives the colour range as 8-14 Lovibond. And no, he doesn't have a snappy definition of Pale Ale. It takes up several pages. Patto1ro (talk) 17:40, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
14? OK, well, fair enough. You've got the book, can you summarize the definition? I guess we should get ready to break this article up into lots of little ones... --Stlemur (talk) 18:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Foster has written not so much a definition as a series of long descriptions of IPA, Pale Ale and Bitter. I'll look to see if Martyn Cornell has written anything more succinct. He's OK as a source, isn't he? Patto1ro (talk) 19:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I can't say, not familiar with him. If he's well-referenced and scholarly, sure.--Stlemur (talk) 23:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tripel

First of all, tripel is not a "beer style," regardless of what the BJCP and the commercial beer fan sites may think. And, because it is not a style, there is no requirement regarding colour. Both Westvleteren and Rochefort, for example, make very dark (almost black) tripels. Achel makes both -- one blond and one brown. So, since it does not apply, I have removed it from this article. Mikebe (talk) 15:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting

Just as a reminder, when removing sections from this article make sure to either create e new article for the cut information or restore the previous article which was made into a re-direct. --Stlemur (talk) 17:24, 21 December 2007 (UTC)