Talk:Paella

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[edit] Cleanup

This page is a mess, it needs reformatting. For this reason, I have nominated it for cleanup. skorpion 12:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It's a mess. It was much better before the chorizos and the Asian paellas began to be introduced in the page.--Ploro 16:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup: Progress

Please note all cleanup changes here and why you changed it - and don't forget to sign it

[edit] Paella Variations

  • Changed the heading "Other Paellas" to "Paella Variations" as this more suits the contecnt of the section. skorpion 01:06, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Related paella traditions

  • Added a citation needed tag. skorpion 05:34, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

  • I have organised the external links at the bottom, removing that unsightly info box that had links to pictures from the university of valencia and putting the links on one line, to make it more organised. However I vote for the removal of those links entirely, we already have paella pictures and I believe these ones add little to the article. Please comment below this and vote. (remeber to tab in with a colon and sign your name) skorpion 23:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Changed the captions on some of the links to wikify them. skorpion 23:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Removed the advertisment for a spanish catering company. It was 1. in spanish and 2. spam. skorpion 22:32, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editing this page

When editing the talk page please either start with a new heading if it is on a new topic or add to the bottom of a current topic. When starting a new topic pleasse add it to the bottom of the page, not the top as it interferes with the contents. Lastly please sign your comment with four tildes. All untitled talk that was on the page has been moved to the bottom. skorpion 12:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The external link

The external link on "mediterrasian.com" seems more an advert than really a good reference on how to cook a paella, or about paella, even with the most open-minded variations of the dish. I would remove it. A good source is "paella.net", although it is in Spanish. Unsigned.

I vote for removing the link! Unsigned.
mediterrasian.com is an excellent resource. I disagree with the removal of the link. Although their recipes at times may be a little bastardised, it still provides a good link with a paella recipe. Also please sign comments on talk pages. (this talk page has been reorganised to make more sense) skorpion 03:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I also vote for removing the link. It is not only bastardised, but it must be uneatable. There are so so many thing added to the paella, that I can't even see the rice. --Ploro 16:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I think I am out-voted! (link removed if it already hasnt been) skorpion 23:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Chorizo" and onions in a paella?

Please! I've seen peas in seafood paellas, but I've NEVER seen "chorizo" (not a typical valencian food) or onions in a paella. Please remove it from the definition; it's wrong.

P.S.: paella = Valencian paella. Unsigned.

Please sign comments on talk pages by using 4 tildes.skorpion 03:47, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the majority of the fake Spanish restaurants in the US, have paella with chorizo. It is a disgusting practice and a very clear tell-tale that the establishment is anything but Spanish.

==


[edit] Spelling

Fixed the spelling mistake in the 2nd paragraph, changed this:

In Valencia area, nevertheless, the name paella is commonly user for both, the pan and the dish.

to this:

In Valencia area, nevertheless, the name paella is commonly used for both, the pan and the dish.

skorpion 14:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Toasting the bottom

I read somewhere that during the final stage of cooking the heat was turned up and the rice in the bpottom of the ban was toasted. Can someone verify this? skorpion 14:39, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The other way round. If you turn up the heat at the end, the rice will be burned. Low fire can make the rice toast a little bit to a point which is usually referred to as "caramelització" (like sugar is turned into candy).--Ploro 16:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved Talk

All of the below talk was moved from the top of the page where it was interferring with the contents. In future please 1. Title your talk if it is on a new topic. 2. add new talk to the bottom not the top. skorpion 06:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

What's meant by "non-rigorous" paella? Wouldn't "Rigorous Paella" be a great name for a rock band?

Stlemur

Please define sofrito. - Montréalais

The equivalence for 'sofreir' (verb 'to produce sofrito') provided by a dictionary is 'to fry lightly', which does not seem not much accurate. To make 'sofregit' (Catalan) or 'sofrito' (Spanish) is to fry-and-stir something (tipically onions, tomatoes, peppers, little bits of something, etc) in the frying pan over slow heat until it sort of melts or makes up a sauce.

I reverted to the the previous version with the image. Why was it removed? --Vikingstad 20:38, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Apart from the fact it does not match with any genuine variation of paella, the recipient is not flat, as it should be, the rice is not dry and it looks overdone. But the main reason is that the picture does not match with the recipe. The recipe given on the left is for a "paella de carn" (meat paella) and the picture is an "open-minded" "paella de marisc" (seafood paella) (with peas). It was removed because of coherence. -- Ploro, a Valencian
I agree. The photo is not very high quality and neither is the paella pictured. However, I think in general we should keep pictures until a better one comes along. I would highly encourage you to make a paella and take a picture and submit it to Wikipedia. If you're not sure how, see Wikipedia:Images. —Nohat 18:09, 2004 Feb 24 (UTC)

I would like to see some evidence that "true" paella doesn't include onion, garlic, chorizo, or peas. I couldn't verify that anywhere on the web. It sounds like someone's opinion to me. I'm qualifying the statement to make it more NPOV. --Nohat 02:27, 2004 Feb 20 (UTC)

Of course, there are opinions on this and probably you can put frogs into a paella and that might taste good. But paella is not like pizza. Paella was originated in the lowlands of Valencia, and it's been done in the same way for centuries, at least from the times tomato was introduced in Valencia around the seventeenth century. There are no chorizos in a lowland. Dried sausages are typical of cold places, so it's difficult to understand how chorizo could become a typical ingredient in a lowland, full of marshes.
Of course, you can see peas and chorizo in some touristic places (not in Valencia, but maybe in Madrid or Barcelona), although if someone has visited Spain once in their life can corroborate that these ingredients are not usual.
Needless to say that you won't see these ingredients in a home-made paella, at least 200 kms around Valencia.
If a Danish or Russian or Mexican makes something similar to a paella and tastes good, congratulations, but that's not a paella, at least a Valencian paella, or a Spanish paella. -- Jose, a Valencian
Perhaps not, but this article is called "paella", not "Valencian paella" or "Spanish paella". —Nohat

I decided to look up "Paella" in the Larousse Gastronomique, widely considered one of the most authoritative culinary encyclopedias.

PAELLA A traditional Spanish rice dish garnished with vegetables, chicken and shellfish. Its name is derived from that of the container in which it is prepared (paellera).
Paella originated in the region of Valenica. Its three basic ingredients are rice, saffron and olive oil. The garnish, which is cooked with the rice in stock, originally consisted either of chicken, snails, French beans (green beans), and peas or of eel, frogs and vegetables, but it became considerably enriched and varied as it spread throughout Spain and even beyond (see jambalaya). The garnish may now include chicken, rabbit, duck, lobster, mussels, langoustines, prawns (shrimp), squid, chorizo, French beans, peas, red (bell) peppers and artichoke hearts; chicken, chorizo, mussels, langoustines and peas are essential ingredients. Paella may be a rustic dish, cooked in the open air and eaten straight from the paellera, traditionally accompanied by small onions (not bread), or a very elaborate preparation, presented with great care, the different-coloured ingredients contrasting with the saffron-flavoured rice and set off by the green peas.

(italic emphasis original, bold emphasis added)

A recipe follows that includes onions and garlic. —Nohat

Very authoritative, ok, but it's wrong. I've never seen frogs in a paella. Never tasted a paella with chorizo. Usually, we don't mix meat with seafood. Either it is a Valencian paella ("paella de carn") with chicken, rabbit and maybe pork, or it is a "paella de pescado/marisco". Mixed paellas are not good combinations. Garlic is only added to the "paella de pescado", which might be more touristic because tourists expect to taste seafood dishes when they are on the beach. There is also "arròs negre" and "fideuà", which are variations, but they're very well established variations, and they have a fixed set of ingredients. You can check, e.g. http://www.lapaella.net/. I'm sorry not to be able to refer to the Real Academia Española for this or to other international recipe source. Of course if you look in google you will even find recipes with alien's meat into a paella, but I can give these two sources.
The most popular newspaper in the Valencia Region has a recipe site:
http://www.lasprovincias.es/valencia/ocio/recetas/
You can check this one:
http://www.lasprovincias.es/valencia/ocio/recetas/paellavalenciana.html
The most authoritative text on Valencian cuisine is J. Martí Dominguez "Els Nostres Menjars". I have it at home and it matches the recipe as it was, not like it has been changed afterwards.You can take a look at part of this book here: http://www.uv.es/~baldovi/cuina/index.html
Recipes are not laws, but cultural heritage. Hence, you won't see prohibitions or banned ingredients,but 'authoritative sources' must check the origins, history and customs of each recipe. It seems to me that the Larousse Gastronomique did a bad work on this. -- Jose, a Valencian
OK, I looked on lapaella.net, and it clearly says under Paella valenciana,
En temporada también admite alcachofa y guisantes.
Guisantes = peas, right?
It also says
Y aquí es donde empiezan las polémicas, porque los valencianos, por naturaleza, no nos ponemos de acuerdo en casi nada y con la paella no iba a ser de otra manera.
So you'll forgive me if I have trouble accepting an authoritative declaration of paella from just one or two Valencians. —Nohat

So clearly, according to an authoritative culinary encyclopedia, onions, garlic, chorizo, and peas are essential ingredients of paella, and I don't see any legitimate reason that the Wikipedia should say that they should be excluded. So, the photo stays, and the bit about how these ingredients are not part of "true" paella goes. —Nohat 06:00, 2004 Feb 20 (UTC)

I'm not going to start a war on this. The Larousse Gastronomique is wrong and it makes me sad to know that wikipedia will be wrong as well. I still think that Wikipedia must be an encyclopedia, not some form of organised google, so it should maintain the original and authentic recipes, and refer variations as what they are, variations. I would agree to put something milder such as "although purists won't agree, peas and chorizo can be seen on paellas all around the world (but very rarely in Spain)". I would also agree to create separate entries in wikipedia for all the variations, leaving paella for a "free or open-minded" paella, with links to specific paellas, starting from the Valencian and original one. We could work on this if you agree. Anyone wanting to work on this can contact me at "ploro@uv.es". -- Ploro, a Valencian
Nonetheless, I don't understand why foreigners have such an interest in instructing us what a paella is. I won't tell your recipes of paella to my grandma, she would die of a heart-attack. -- Jose, a Valencian
I think the fundamental problem here is the misguided belief that because paella originally came from Valencia, that somehow Valencians have dominion over defining what is and isn't paella. Valencians have no more authority to decide what is and isn't paella than the Neapolitans have in deciding what is and isn't pizza or in Texans declaring that "chili" can't have beans. They can only say "this is how we make it", but they really have no business telling others how to make it.
First of all, while I recognize that paella is originally a Valencian word, this is the English Wikipedia, and we write about the English meanings of words. In English there is a long tradition of words not meaning what some authority says they mean, but instead words mean what users mean them to mean. If the vast majority of English speakers mean by "paella" a dish that includes peas, then no matter how much some Valencian purists protest, "paella" means a dish with peas in English. I'll refrain from editing the article on the Spanish Wikipedia about "paella".
I guess it possible, likely even, given the franco-centric nature of the french writers who originally wrote the Gastronomique, that they are wrong about the traditional Valencian ingredients of paella.
Anyhow, I have removed the recipe to Wikibooks (a result of a discussion elsewhere about recipes on Wikipedia), so some of these details are no longer relevant. But it is important that the article be neutral in how it defines paella, without taking sides as to what is and isn't paella, but only what different people believe paella is or might not be.
— Nohat 16:48, 2004 Feb 24 (UTC)

I have reorganized the article now, and I think it better represents the traditional view of paella as well as the more liberal one, without taking sides. Please let me know if you still have problems with it. I think we should be able to fairly represent all views. —Nohat 18:06, 2004 Feb 24 (UTC)

I like the current solution very much and I agree with you on everything, including the peas and I'm sure Ploro will do as well. I'll put a better picture of the paella one of these days. Thank you. -- Jose, a Valencian.

[edit] Paella variations

I have had to continually edit this section as one user (both as an anonymous user and as a registered user) insists on modifying the last sentence, which mentions Vallencian rice. The change is from: "Portugal has a similar popular dish called Arroz à Valenciana (Valencian Rice)." to: "Portugal has a similar (and much better) popular dish called Arroz à Valenciana (Valencian Rice).

I have left an edit note within that section of the text and a message on that users talk page specifying that it was deleted for a reason (WP:NPOV) but if it happens for a 5th time I will be forced to seek administrator intervention. skorpion 10:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New picture

The new picture on the top is not a Valencian Paella. It might be a kind of freestyle paella but it is not a Valencian Paella. I don't know why every two or three months, someone changes the main picture to a picture which has nothing to do with an authentic paella. The text already says (and it was forced to say this) that "paella" is understood in many different ways around the globe, but "Valencian Paella" is a term which is still understood as those paellas which stick to tradition. I suggest to recover the original picture as in: (http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paella) -- A Valencian.

  • I agree, but am not sure how to recover the picture. Can anyone help here? Fairsing 00:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Valencia, not Andalucía

Paella originated in Valencia, not Andalucía. Reverted. Tsk070 05:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I've added requests on the user's talk page for references or cites to support his position as well. Kuru talk 14:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, but unfortunately right now the article says both that it originated there and that it didn't originate there. Can we choose a consistent point of view in one way or another until the issue is resolved? --ubiquity 20:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Fixed. It was a missed uncited change[1] by the same editor - he hit the XO page with his standard change on Nov 20th[2] with the same University of Kent IP. Kuru talk 21:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


I'm Valencian. And this article is quite unprecise. Paella is original from Valencia, that's sacred. And the one we eat here, the original, never has peas, nor chorizo. It must always be cooked on a "Paellera", thats the secret, it doesnt state the same when cooked on an ordinary frying pan.

The first paellas where done by the farmers from l'Albufera (where many rice is seeded). It was made with rests of other foods. The it evolved, at those times it was common to put rat meat on it too. Nowdays, of course we don't put rat on nit, but rabbit and maybe chicken.

[edit] More inaccuracies

"Real paella rice is never stir-fried in oil, as pilaf."

This is plain wrong. The best paellas I've had all had the rice fried for a while before adding the water. It improves water absorption.

Besides, the word "real" is out of context, seeing the comments above about this document describing what "paella" means in English, rather than what a Valencian paella is.

69.181.148.6 07:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

If only there were some way that you could update the article! Rogerborg (talk) 15:37, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Major ingredients are not 'Rice, saffron and olive oil'. Rice and chicken perhaps. But saffron? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.128.201 (talk) 07:16, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Saffron is a vital ingredient that gives the dish its unique flavor.

As well as its characteristic colour... --Gibmetal 77talk 02:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religion of Spain

Was Spain always monotheistic? Sure, Spain the nation may have been Christian since the end of the Roman era, but the indigenous Iberians were certainly pagans and the Romans living there were pagans as well until the Christian era. Or did the pre-Christian Iberians and Hispanics simply not exist? That needs to be revised without the seemingly Catholic bias.

To claim that people in that land were ALWAYS monotheistic strikes me as laughably implausible.

--'Course it's implausible, because it's not true. There have been people in Spain much longer than there has been Christianity or Islam, and I doubt the population was entirely Jewish in, say, the time of the Roman Empire. But anyway. The real problem here is an unsubstantiated anecdote about some "priest" having a vision and creating paella, inserted by an anonymous user with a dubious edit history and poor typing skills. I have chosen to be bold and remove the offending text. Anyone want to quote a reputable source?--Craigkbryant (talk) 17:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥>33♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.250.205 (talk) 00:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)