Talk:P.E.O. Sisterhood

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[edit] Name

From P.E.O. Memorial Library and Founders Portraits....P.E.O. has stood for Progress,Expansion and Opportunity... 67.160.128.226 has repeatedly claimed in edits that Wikipedia editors are trying to "censor" one of the "theories" about what "P.E.O." stands for. This is not the case. What editors, myself included, are looking for is a source. I have removed the irrelevant information when it has been posted to the Cottey College article, but I do fully support it being here – if it can be proven. Saying a theory exists doesn't mean much unless it can be shown that it's shared by more people than yourself.

In short, please do not assume that anyone is trying to "censor" on Wikipedia, as that is a very serious allegation. All we want is sourced information, and it would be great if someone could provide at least one reference. Thanks! Beginning 03:48, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The theory appears on several web pages -- see for example [1], [2], [3], [4]. While none of these is definitive, together they do suggest that such a theory is out there. Add to this the edit history for the "P.E.O. Sisterhood" page, which repeatedly was stripped of any reference to the phrase even when hedged as "one theory", and it does look like someone was highly motivated to keep this phrase from appearing on that page. Perhaps these edits were for legitimate source quality reasons; but none of the removals had summaries explaining the individual's reasoning. I believe it plausible that censorship was being attempted here -- not by the Wikipedia community, but by a motivated individual. 67.160.128.226 06:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Enforcing Wikipedia's rule about verifiability is not censorship. If you want to add these allegations about the meaning of the "P.E.O." initials, please provide citations to support them. Controversial assertions that are not backed by citation may be removed. And people who persistently war over the content of articles may find themselves asked to leave Wikipedia. If this edit war continues, I will protect the article and/or ban one or more editors. Kelly Martin (talk) 23:27, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for bringing up censorship, and had not fully understood the burden of proof that verifiability puts on editors who want to :include, rather than remove, content from articles. I believe I have now located verifiable sources that document the PEO = theory. These are:
  • Abbreviations Dictionary (ISBN: 0849390036), Dean A Stahl & Karen Kerchelich (Eds.), CRC Press, which on p. 805 in the entry for PEO notes secret women's organization)".
  • Stories in Stone: A Field Guide to Cemetery Symbolism and Iconography (ISBN: 158685321X), by Douglas Keister, Gibbs Smith Press, which in a glossary on p. 220 defines PEO as "P.E.O. Sisterhood ()"
I have no wish to restart an edit war, but would now like to include this now-verifiable information on this page. Do you approve, Kelly Martin? 67.160.128.226 07:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Feel free to add that information to the article with the appropriate citations as noted. Kelly Martin (talk) 20:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I did. But User:150.216.14.43 took it upon themselves to re-start the edit war be removing this information, calling it "irrelevant". What's the proper Wikipedian way to resolve this issue? Thanks, 67.160.128.226 20:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I have no desire to "re-start the edit war". It appears that User:67.160.128.226 is plain old fashioned mean spirited and wants to tell the world something that he/she can only speculate to ruin the fun of over a quarter of a million women. Just because some speculative theories of the true meaning of P.E.O. have been published in any number of locations does not mean that they are true, thus any speculation of the meaning is irrelevant and Wikipedia has no business with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.216.14.43 (talk • contribs)

Please don't speculate, incorrectly, about my motives. And please don't unilaterally remove valid but controversial information from this page if you don't want to be seen as re-starting an edit war. Regarding the information about the name: you call it speculation, but these sources present it as fact. Finally, I don't think protecting an organization's secret in the interest of "not ruining the fun" is a valid criteria for deciding what should and should not appear in Wikipedia. But I would like to hear others opinions on this. 67.160.128.226 21:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I have been lurking around this conversation and even though I'm sure 67.160.128.226 is looking for someone other than me to respond, I cannot help but throw my two cents in. 67.160.128.226 and 151.148.192.138 both seem intent on putting irrelevant and unnecessary information on the P.E.O. Sisterhod page and I concur with 150.216.14.43in the comment that it appears to be "mean spirited" because of the attempts to place the therorized meaning of P.E.O. in the "Cottey College" and "Nevada, MO" pages as well where it is even more irrelevant. There is no reason to place your therories on the true meaning of P.E.O. on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Princess LJ (talk • contribs)

I couldn't help to throw my $0.02 either! How can a theory that is directly related to the society described in the article to be "irrelevant", as in your edit summaries? However, I do think that this page would be the only place to do that, at least until this is resolved. BTW, sign your posts on talk pages with ~~~~. It makes the discussion a lot easier to read. Fetofs Hello! 23:13, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
It is my opinion that the information as to the source of the name is quite relevant, and I do not see how it can be seen as otherwise. I am at the point that I believe that the editors removing it are removing it due to an obligation (presumably of membership) not to allow that information to be propogated. If this is the case, they are advised to cease removing it. This piece of information appears to be both factual and verifiable, as well as relevant, and therefore belongs in the article. If this edit war continues, I am quite willing to take this matter to RFC, and, if necessary, Arbitration. I hope it will not come to that. Kelly Martin (talk) 23:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Kelly. The information is relevant and sourced. The attempts to remove it seem to be quite unreasonable, and potentially due to the affilations that Kelly suggests. Please do not remove it again until you can determine where that action falls within Wikipedia policy, which I do not believe it does.--Sean Black 23:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
And I would like to join Fretofs and Princess LJ in asking 151.148.192.138 to stop placing the meaning of the PEO acronym on the Cottey College and Nevada, Missouri pages, where it is irrelevant. (And I'd like to correct Princess LJ's implication that I've been involved placing the name on those pages; I haven't.) --67.160.128.226 03:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree, it is not relevant on those pages. However, I would note that it likely would not have found its way to THOSE pages had it not been rebuffed so persistently on THIS page..... Our policies are as they are for many reasons. Kelly Martin (talk) 03:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
So we seem to agree on an outcome of this edit war. Let's wait to see if someone reverts again, hopefully that is not going to happen. Fetofs Hello! 12:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Nope. They are persistent. fetofs Hello! 19:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

As a P.E.O. Sister, my understanding is that we routinely give out plausible but false theories about what the initials stand for. For anyone to affirmatively state that they KNOW the actual meaning is by its nature incorrect, because the only people who know are keeping it secret. When pressed, we keep the secret by lying about what it means. Therefore, you cannot ever trust any source on this subject. For what it's worth, though, I thought it stood for "Pa Eats Out." Wmarsden 17:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Puh-leeze. [(My grandmother (who was like a 2nd mother to me) was a P.E.O. member. She went to her grave (last year) without ever doing more than smile knowingly and giving us all the "Philanthropic Educational Organization" thing.)] Secret organizations with 250,000 members CANNOT keep their secrets from leaking out. The Masons, the Mormons, every fraternity in America... sorry, but get over it. A Doon 00:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sourcing

I've tried to break down the sourcing as follows:

1) One source that has the organization giving what it says its name stands for, which seems not only fair but necessary. There's no conversation unless you start there.
2) Three sources in agreement; I found a lot more, but those seemed like good enough ones to use.
3) Three sources in disagreement, which keeps it even. Two books plus one website.

If there's any disagreement, please keep it civil. I just want that section to be really fair, and I think this improves it a lot.

I also changed it to say "unspecified rituals," because frankly, having just "rituals" without saying what they are seems rather silly, and no source that I found talked about any rituals (confirmed or alleged) of the Sisterhood. Does anyone have one? It would be good to include if such a thing exists. Beginning 22:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Since the members of this "organization" are sworn to secrecy, it is not surprising that no verification of what the initials stand for is readily available. The initiation ceremony is divided into four or 5 parts with each individual only possessing the part they have to say, to avoid it being made public. I'm not going to edit the site, but if someone wants to use my remarks, - feel free. The average age of the members of this group has to be pretty old - some of the older ones in particular would be upset by anyone knowing their lifelong "secrets." (comment left here by: 207.0.244.203 21:48, 20 June 2006)
Editors cannot "make use of your remarks" because you haven't provided any published verifiable sources for this information. Do you have some, e.g., for what the national office of the Lutheran Church (?!) is saying about this organization? --67.160.128.226 17:04, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

maru (talk) contribs 04:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spoiler Template

Hello. I am Think Fast. A few months ago I added {{spoiler}} to this article. (This edit was then reverted by Fetofs at 20:36, June 3, 2006.) I added this template because it is annoying to me that the "secret" of the backronym PEO is alledgedly exposed in the "name" section. I am the relative of a long-time PEO. She has hinted for a long time that the real meaning of PEO is a secret. Because respectful of the organization, I had no wish to discover the true meaning of PEO. As I was scanning this article, P------ E--- O---- caught my eye. I was very unhappy and disturbed to see the true meaning.
Yes, I admit that it is sort of strange to add a spoiler alert. Contrary to the template, there are no plot/ending details following the spoiler alert. I was aware of this, but added it anyway because I felt that there needed to be some warning before the telling of secrets. I looked but could not find any other template signifying the giving-away of a secret besides the spoiler alert.
If anyone else has an idea about what to use as a warning, please let me know. I would be more than happy to create the template. --Think Fast 15:19, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I must assume that I was a bit nervous with all the reverts in this article. Wikipedia:Spoiler warning tells us that a spoiler is a piece of information in an article about a narrative work (such as a book, feature film, television show or video game) that may reduce one's enjoyment of it by revealing certain plot events or twists. I don't think revealing what an acronym stands for is a lot spoilery since it doesn't fit into that definition and the meaning for an acronym is the least you expect from any article. I see that for you the acronym was a mystery of sorts; but I can't see that happening to many readers. fetofs Hello! 15:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Idea

What about a compromise? Is it possible to have the disputed text in white font? With white font, it is possible to identify the information, but the reader has to work for the information. Here's an example, to view the next statement, the reader must highlight it with the cursor. This is a way to hide secrets. What do you think about that as an idea? Princess LJ 04:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons for removing "PEO" content

Would the person(s) who have been recently removing the documented meaning of the acronym P.E.O. from this article care to explain their reasoning? This article recently emerged from having been protected from editing due to edit-warring over this content, and it would be a shame to see it return to this frozen state due to mindless resumption of this back-and-forth. Does anyone have a reason for excluding this content, besides those already covered and addressed above? --24.21.106.174 22:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe the reasons covered and addressed above .. and the edit-warring and resultant protection .. provide adequate evidence that many people would like that part of the article removed. If it is not, I will only presume that the edit-warring will continue until possibly another freeze is imposed. Leave the book references; if someone is that curious, they can look it up themselves. Let them keep their secrets - that's what the "magic" is all about. 68.218.98.53 21:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
In my home the name was "Pigs Eat Onions" or "Philanthropic Educational Organization." This Reference to actual knowledege of the name should be eliminated for several reasons:

Because there is such warring that apparently cannot be abated Because this is an insignificant and, frankly, silly point Because only the members know and they--some of my closest relatives--are not telling--it seems unlikely that there will be an genuinely authoritative source--published or otherwise Because publishing simply does not make information factual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbyerley (talk • contribs) 15:22, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rumoring and Speculating

According to the bylaws of PEO, no member is allowed to speak, write, or publish the actual meaning of the letters P.E.O. So, without a confirmation from a member, all theories are nothing but rumor and speculation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tbreneman (talk • contribs) 21:47, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Since there are no published reports sponsored by the organization, only a member or a publication sponsered by the organization can be a suitable source. Please cite the first name, last name, and chapter the member is from if you want report the meaning of the acronym PEO. 76.84.151.137 (talk) 01:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
First of all, could you please point us all to a published version of those bylaws? It would be an excellent citation to add to this article. Secondly, assuming that the bylaws say what you claim, the only verifiable source for the true meaning of PEO would necessarily be in a source that is not sponsored by the organization (unless I suppose PEO accidentally sponsored a publication without realizing it revealed this secret). So the request for a citation from a sponsored source seems to amount to a request for something that doesn't exist, and so isn't really helpful. Finally, there is a distinction to be made between a "rumor" or "speculation" vs. an independent source, isn't there? The citations supplied for the "P.E.O." theory are obviously independent of PEO, but they constitute reputable research and don't deserve to be called speculative or rumor-speading. --24.21.106.174 (talk) 21:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, since the bylaws are kept by the chapters, I suggest that you find one in your area and ask one of the kind ladies for a copy. Just explain to them what you are doing, and if nothing else, perhaps you'll gain a better understanding about the generous, gracious, and classy ladies that stand behind the P.E.O. organization. I'm sure they'd love to tell you all about their local philanthropic activities. After all, many of the members are retired ladies who have dedicated their lives to volunteering in their communities. And once you've spoken to one, I'm sure they'd fill you in on the meaning of PEO, as published on the PEO Sisterhood Web site, which is "Philanthropic Education Organization." One of them may even allow you to use their name as a source for your citation. I'm afraid I just can't stand behind anything that isn't verified or publicly supported by the organization. Also, there are a great number of "independent sources" on a variety of subjects. And even if they are considered to be "credible," they are not neccessarily accurate. Perahaps you could cite the sources your sources used? Anyway, please check the veracity of your theories with members of the organization in your area before you post more information. Tbreneman (talk) 21:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Tbreneman, please read Wikipedia's policies regarding verifiability and no original research; your suggestions that I conduct my own research on the organization are not really consistent with these. I also am not sure why you assume that I haven't spoken with one or more members, but that is beside the point. Regarding possible multiple theories regarding the name, provided that these have been published as verifiable citations, this article should certainly cover them in the interest of completeness. So by all means, please add any other theories you may find in published literature for the meaning of PEO. In particular, I think you should definitely add the fact that the Sisterhood's official website is currently claiming that PEO stands for "Philanthropic Educational Institution" (fascinating, if the bylaws actually forbid disclosing the meaning -- is their webmaster disobeying the bylaws, or is the Sisterhood deliberately spreading false information?). But in any case: please revert your deletion of the "P.E.O." theory. Deleting properly cited content from Wikipedia pages is considered vandalism. --24.21.106.174 (talk) 22:32, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I've been following this discussion very closely, and I think it's an absolute shame to see the PEO meaning-- which has been cherished by so many women for so many decades--be treated so carelessly by a few individuals. I know women who have dedicated 50 to 60 years of their lives to their PEO sisters, it's philanthropies, and it's mission. To have a few people selfishly ignore these efforts is so sad to me. In fact, it's an absolute insult to these tireless volunteers. I understand those who feel that this page is not complete without the meaning. After all, I am a journalist by trade. But there comes a time when ethics must overtake all other things, and people must simply do the right thing. I challenge those who feel the need to splash theories across this page, step out behind your IP address. Write a letter to the editor of the PEO Record. Present your feelings to your local chapter. Otherwise, your acts are nothing but cowardly attacks on a sisterhood dedicated to philanthropy, and furthering the education of all women. 129.93.115.189 (talk) 00:21, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

First, please refrain from making personal attacks, such as calling others' efforts to improve this page "cowardly", and stop disparaging those (like yourself!) who choose to edit anonymously. Second, this is an encyclopedia article about PEO, its history, and practices, and if you read the discussion above you will see that wp:consensus is that the meaning of the name is quite appropriate to be discussed here (though not on other pages only tangentially related to PEO, such as Cottey College). I think it's a shame that apparently almost all the effort that PEO sisters have put into editing this page has gone into trying to censor the meaning of the name from appearing, rather than, as you rightly point out, documenting the many positive aspects of this organization. And I fail to see how documenting here (as has already been done elsewhere) what the letters PEO stand for, detracts in any way from the accomplishments of or be insulting to to its many members across the years. I personally have no such intent, and don't think the other editors who are promoting conformity to Wikipedia's policies do either. --24.21.106.174 (talk) 02:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, regardless of all of those things... Tbreneman is not vandalizing the page because her efforts (and the efforts of others) are efforts in good faith to improve this page by clearing it of inaccurate information. Also, the vandalism page specifically states that stubborness is not vandalism. And regardless of whether not PEO stands for Philanthropic Education Organization, or anything else, there is only one published source that verifies the theory in question, and while it may be credible, it's not accurate. I say this page should only back information that is supported by the organization, or at the very least, not publish inaccurate information. 76.84.151.137 (talk) 01:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The Tbreneman's repeated blanking of "P.E.O." is vandalism not because he or she is being stubborn, it is because he or she has been removing two valid citations and the information they support from the page, despite repeated explanations that this is considered a form of vandalism on Wikipedia. The accuracy of this information, though cited, is certainly up for discussion. Do you have a more accurate source to cite? If so, by all means add this information to the page. But simply subtracting information from a page because it bothers you is not helpful to the community at large (though I suppose it may be an obligation of PEO membership?). --24.21.106.174 (talk) 02:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation request

Would a non-anonymous editor please request mediation by the Cabal? This edit-warring is tiresome. The dispute appears to be whether any non-PEO-approved published source for the meaning of the name "PEO" could be anything but "rumor and speculation". I have made my case for why this reasoning is spurious; but anonymous vandalizing of the page is continuing. Can a third-party please offer an objective opinion, and help end this? --24.21.106.174 (talk) 02:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I guess, personally, I don't really see where there is any doubt what the name stands for since it's listed right on the Web site. Any other explanations are clearly just rumors. Here is the information DIRECTLY FROM THE WEBSITE:

"P.E.O. (philanthropic educational organization), one of the pioneer societies for women, was founded on January 21, 1869, by seven students at Iowa Wesleyan College in Mount Pleasant, Iowa. Originally a small campus friendship society, P.E.O. soon blossomed to include women off campus. Today, P.E.O. has grown from that tiny membership of seven to almost a quarter of a million members in chapters in the United States and Canada. The P.E.O. Sisterhood is passionate about its mission: promoting educational opportunities for women. Our sisterhood proudly makes a difference in women's lives with five international projects: P.E.O. Educational Loan Fund, Cottey College, P.E.O. International Peace Scholarship Fund, P.E.O. Program for Continuing Education, and P.E.O. Scholar Awards. P.E.O. is headquartered in Des Moines, Iowa." 63.70.164.200 (talk) 14:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. While it may be tiresome for some individuals to keep posting all the different theories out there, it gets tiresome for the rest of us to protect the integrity of the organization. We are just shifting the focus back to promoting educational opportunities for women, and away from the "secret society" rumors and speculation. Call P.E.O. a secret society, a club, whatever, but there is not even a hint from the organization that P.E.O. stands for anything other than philanthropic educational organization. And there is nothing that even hints that P.E.O. is a secret society. No more than greek organizations are, anyway. Therefore, any information printed by a book that makes its money on exploiting the "secrets" of organizations, is just flat out speculating information, unless there is a valid source or citation that comes from the organization. It's just not acceptable to post speculative theories that are unconfirmed from the organization, when the true meaning is CLEARLY spelled out right on the organization's OFFICIAL WEB SITE.Tbreneman (talk) 14:36, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
If you have evidence against the scholarship or credibility of Stahl and Kerchelich, or of Douglas Keister, please bring it forward. If your only criticism is that they aren't speaking for PEO, that can only be an argument in favor of the validity of these sources. So please stop vandalizing the page in the name of "protecting the integrity of [PEO]"; that's NOT a valid reason for removing published reputable information. --24.21.106.174 (talk) 04:05, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Hmm... this seems to be the downfall of Wikipedia. The ethical line is certainly in the eye of the beholder. Unfortunately, since I have several family members in PEO, I'm going to have to weigh in, knowing that my mother and aunts would be very sad to see the the "true meaning" (hypothesized by those outside the organization) posted without the organization's consent or confirmation. From what I can see, the meaning (as hypothesized) has been published in a few books, which are being cited as sources. While I suppose this technically means it should be included, I'm not sure why anyone would want to since it clearly means so much to those who are involved. But, all I can go off of is the fun my mother and aunts had with the organization. I know that, whatever the meaning is, they certainly felt very strongly that it should never be known to others outside of P.E.O. TeddyMurph (talk) 16:16, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, TeddyMurph, for weighing in on this admittedly controversial and emotional issue. I agree that the ethics can get blurry here (see, for example, past discussion of whether the meaning of PEO should appear in tangentially related articles, not just this main one). In response, though, I would like to point out that I don't necessarily agree that the secret name "means so much to those who are involved", as this assumes a uniformity in the attitude of the many hundreds of Sisters in the organization, and in my experience, at least some of those Sisters don't think the secret-keeping tradition is particularly important or helpful to the Sisterhood (though they do feel intense social pressure to keep it). I'd also like to question whether there is some sexist/ageist reasoning lurking here: if PEO was a mixed-gender group of young people, and not a group associated with "nice old ladies", would these conflict of interest edits be thought of in the same light? Finally, as for my own motivation (as I can't speak for the other editors who have been trying to keep the secret of the name in this article), it is at heart to make Wikipedia as good an encyclopedic source of knowledge that it can be. I really care about principles of academic freedom and openness, and the idea that any outside group can censor what can be well-documented about it (or that Wikipedia would self-censor itself in this manner) bothers me a lot. I'll admit that I may at this point, after many months of fighting this particular fight, not be particularly "objective" about the situation; that's in part why I'm calling for some outside mediation, results of which I think anyone with Wikipedia's best interests at heart will be happy to abide by. --24.21.106.174 (talk) 18:15, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Original mission?

Editors recently changed the introduction by inserting a claim that the original mission of PEO was to provide philanthropic and educational opportunities for women (essentially identical to the current mission). However, the Sisterhood's website only says, "Originally a small campus friendship society, P.E.O. soon blossomed to include women off campus." Can anyone provide a reference showing what the original mission was? Anyone know if or how the mission has changed over the years? Thanks, --24.21.106.174 (talk) 21:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)