Talk:P. G. Wodehouse

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]

	Comedy Portal This article is within the scope of the Comedy WikiProject, which collaborates on articles related to comedy, comics, comedians, comedy movies, and the like. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

Contents 1 Style 2 Humble 3 Sir Thomas Browne 4 Pronunciation of Name 5 Book reference 2 6 Drones Club Article 7 Golf 8 possible mistake? 9 Knighthood 10 Performing flea 11 The Inimitable Jeeves 12 buzzer novels 13 Doctorate 14 Boarding school 15 Baxter 16 Regarding Wooster's aunts 17 Childhood 18 Galahad Threepwood 19 Life - Early Employment 20 Birth? 21 Infertility 22 Seventy Years 23 The Paint and the Shoe 24 British vs. English 25 RFC (British vs. English) 26 An observation regarding the English / British debate 27 Nationality 28 Moved here from article 28.1 Trivia 29 Old Age Photo 30 Anti-semite 31 Controversy 32 P.G. Wodehouse discrepancy

[edit] Style

P.G Wodehouse's writing style involves strange plot devices such as engagements to get out of, cow-creamers to recover and so on and so on.

[edit] Humble

I wouldn't exactly call Jeeves humble, but I hesitate to change that. zadcat 09:56 Sep 1, 2002 (PDT)

Jeeves is definitely not humble. He's smugly superior, but in an underhand way that Wooster never notices. -- Tarquin 10:03 Sep 1, 2002 (PDT)

Point taken. I deleted "humble". Perhaps one adjective is enough. -- Heron

[edit] Sir Thomas Browne

Actually whilst not denigrating the linguistic prowess of 'Plum' I think you will find that the name of Sir Thomas Browne's name occurs far more frequently in the OED than Wodehouse. Incidentally Browne knew the Wodehouse's of Kimberley Norfolk whose ancestors fought at Agincourt, but whether related to the master of the social yarns of P.G. I dunno.Norwikian 14:29, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of Name

Pronunciation of his name: WOOd-house vs. WOAd-house? Actually, I seem to remember hearing a TV or radio interview with him many years ago (probably when I was in college, in the early 1960s, and had a Jeeves-monkey on my back) in which the man himself said his name was properly pronounced "Wood-uss" -- sort of eliding the H and O sounds. Anybody know for sure? ---Michael K. Smith 21:17, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I would imagine the peculiarty of the pronunciation of his own name gives rise to the apparently absurd names he uses (certainly surprising to non-English cultures - many people don't believe those names actually exist). Maybe I've missed it, but is there a guide anywhere here - which, it must be said in passing (and many thanx to everyone!), is probably the best thing on Wikipedia - as to the pronunciation of some of the more outrageous ones - Fotheringay-Phipps, comes to mind with Fingee Fipps. Would appreciate help! Regards, --Technopat 20:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Book reference 2

I've changed the format of Template:Book reference 2 so that instead of 'ISBN=nnnnnnnnn' it takes 'id=ISBN nnnnnnnnnn'. This is so that we can use it for books that don't have ISBNs. I'd update this article, but User:Rdsmith4 has an inuse message set, so this is a reminder for me or someone else to make that change once the article's no longer marked as inuse. —Morven 22:22, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

I've made the change. — Dan | Talk 22:40, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Drones Club Article

It seems to me that there is a Drones Club article. -- Two Halves, unlogged and unstoppable

So there is. Pardon my confusion, but what's the purpose of your comment? — Dan | Talk 03:04, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

There was no active link in the article, and I didn't want to mess up all the work you were doing and/or be instantly reverted. So, now you know. -- Two Halves

[edit] Golf

Surely "A Damsel in Distress" is also golf-oriented?

[edit] possible mistake?

"Wodehouse was a prolific author, writing ninety-six books in a career spanning from 1902 to 1977."

but he expired on 1975.

ephraim

Well spotted. I think the person who wrote "1977" was confused by PGW's posthumous publications. Now fixed. --Heron 11:42, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Knighthood

Is it correct to call him "Sir". If his knighthood was bestowed after he became an American, would it not be only honorary, like Bob Geldof's? Avalon 06:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I believe he had dual nationality, which would mean that "Sir" was indeed correct. However, the matter is almost moot, since he was only a knight for a few weeks.

In some contexts "Sir" would be out of place (and in Wodehouse's case, occurrences of "Sir Pelham" would very much be the exception rather than the rule). But in this context, where the full details of his name and titles are presented, it is not only appropriate, but required, because leaving it out would be misleading. JackofOz 01:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I am removing the reference to the Queen Mother on the strength of the following passage in McCrum (2004, p 414):

There is also an apocryphal story that Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother, a lifelong fan, had volunteered to go to Long Island to conduct a private investiture, but was forbidden by the authorities. Close examination of the record shows that ... this is a fanciful tale.

Unfortunately, McCrum does not document this last statement. Jimmy Pitt (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 14:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Performing flea

"English literature's performing flea" isn't an insult - it's a delightful compliment! Penguin put it on the outside of most of its books, and Plum himself quoted it with pleasure. Maybe it shouldn't be in the intro, but it's not a criticism. I may move it yet again. - DavidWBrooks 16:42, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it belongs in the article - it's a nice turn of phrase, if nothing else, and only arguably an insult - but I'm not sure it's a topline piece of info. I like it where it is now. Having said that, I won't be very upset if it's moved. --Rayray 16:50, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

It was not intended as a compliment; its author, Sean O'Casey, was sneering at the award to Wodehouse of an honorary doctorate by Oxford University. Wodehouse chose to treat the comment humorously and deflected the insult by using the phrase as the title of one of his quasi-autobiographical books. Jimmy Pitt 15:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

A little research finds that you are quite correct! I retract my above statement ... almost two years later ... - 23:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidWBrooks (talk • contribs)

[edit] The Inimitable Jeeves

This book seems to be missing from the bibliography, although it is indeed a very real and very Wodehouse-written book in the Jeeves series.

I think most of the books should be removed from the bibliography, since it has List of books by P. G. Wodehouse, where "Inimitable Jeeves" appears. I will remove most of them from this article, leaving summaries of the categories. - DavidWBrooks 13:23, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] buzzer novels

User:FlashSheridan recommends the "buzzer novels" – which are they? —Tamfang 18:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I asked that question at his/her User page - and this was his/her answer:

"Buzzer" was a term used by at least one Wodehouse critic (I'm afraid I've forgotten his name) for a class of protagonist: young, male, and overly-confident but good-hearted. My particular favorite is Uneasy Money, but there are many others. FlashSheridan 05:14, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

No, the term "buzzer" was used by Wodehouse himself. He first used it in a short story, "Love Me, Love My Dog", in 1910. He doesn't seem to have used it again until the book "Money in the Bank", written while he was interned and published in 1942. The term refers to a certain type of young man who, as Wodehouse himself put it (in "Love Me, Love My Dog"), has the "gift of conversation". Some critics, such as Richard Usborne, have described the character Psmith as the quintessential 'buzzer', which may explain the erroneous notion that the term was invented by a critic. Jimmy Pitt 15:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Doctorate

Is it worth mentioning his honorary doctorate? It was clearly important to PGW, and many (including Waugh) write letters to him as Dr Wodehouse. -- wikiman 9th April, 2006

[edit] Boarding school

Wodehouse only saw his parents every six or seven years whilst at boarding school? Can that be right, or should it be months instead of years? kylet 12:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I would think that it should be months. If it was truly years, he would only have visited his parents once during his scholastic career. It is far more likely that he went home once for the Christmas holidays and once for the summer holidays each year. -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

It would be far more likely nowadays, when the journey to Hong Kong takes less than a day, but in the late 19th century, travelling by steamship, by the time he got there it would be time to come home again! Although his mother took him out to Hong Kong when he was a few months old, he was sent back to England for his schooling and never visited Hong Kong again. He only saw his parents when his father had 'home leave', which would have been only every two-three years. Jimmy Pitt 15:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Baxter

"Wodehouse's servants are frequently far smarter than their masters. This is quintessentially true with Jeeves, who always pulls Bertie Wooster out of the direst scrapes. It recurs elsewhere, such as the efficient Baxter, secretary to the befogged Lord Emsworth"

When has Baxter ever pulled Emsworth out of a scrape, maybe the inverse is true. Surely Baxter is known only to help Connie.

The quoted text doesn't say that Baxter pulls Emsworth out of scrapes. If you read it carefully you will see that it merely says that Baxter is smarter than Emsworth. -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:30, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I didn't read the text carefully. -- Wikipaiyan 10:10, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding Wooster's aunts

"Bertie Wooster's terrorising aunts Agatha and Dahlia" Aunt Dahlia was Wooster's favorite relative!

Even so, Bertie still regarded Aunt Dahlia as a terror, as she often forced him into doing things he did not want to do (albeit more nicely than Aunt Agatha!)

Is it worth mentioning that Wodehouse's female characters (Aunts included) are generally much more forceful (if that's the word I want) than his male characters. As Bertie Wooster would say "the F of the S is more D than the M."

Kipling actually (and PGW does attribute it to "Old Pop Kipling" in at least one book. The full text of the poem is at http://www.potw.org/archive/potw96.html - well worth a read srs 04:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Woops, I thought it was obvious, but I should have attributed it. Sorry Jen Powell-Psmith 04:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Childhood

"Feeling abandoned, Wodehouse grew very close to his brother, who shared his love for art. Wodehouse filled the voids in his life by writing relentlessly."

I'm fairly sure that he never said anything of the kind. He very rarely broke from the cheery tone of his books in any of his writings or interviews that I've read (for an exception, see his see the statements he gave upon his arrest in Paris after the War). Of course, he may have been wearing the mask, but I think we have to at least consider the possibility that he was a fairly happy person, as unfashionable as that undoubtedly is. Perhaps "Some biographers (Robert McCrum, others as well?) have speculated that Wodehouse suffered from feelings of abandonment."

[edit] Galahad Threepwood

Surely Gally Threepwood deserves at least a mention among Wodehouse's memorable characters. A true philanthrop, he might one of the most interesting characters created by Plum.--Khodadad 05:29, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be interesting to point out his best-known novels, the ones that should not be missed because they are in the collective memory?Zigzig20s 06:54, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Life - Early Employment

Surely Wodehouse never really worked at the HSBC Bank; unless it was in China. HSBC only acquired The Midland Bank in 1992 before that its European presence began as a minor share holder of The Midland in 1987. When Wodehouse worked for the bank it would have been known as the The London City and Midland Bank. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that he worked for this bank adding if necessary that it was taken over by the HSBC in 1992? If any records of this employment came to light would they mention HSBC? Shropman 21:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

All my Penguin editions, most of which were printed long before 1987, say he worked at the Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank (not "HSBC Bank"). Why shouldn't it have an office in the financial centre of the world even before becoming entangled with the Midland? —Tamfang 18:02, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

True. And there's Psmith in the City - Mike Jackson is more or less a semi autobiographical version of PGW, and he is forced to join "The New Asiatic Bank" after school instead of "going up to the coll" - that is, going to oxford or cambridge, mostly for the cricket there. The bank he joins (I'm paraphrasing here) is one of those banks with vast branches in far flung areas, with the london office a kind of holding area where people receive a year or so of training in the various departments, starting from the mail room, and are then packed off overseas to manage a tiny branch in some remote asian city.

'You look on the gloomy side, Comrade Jackson. I seem to see you sitting in an armchair, fanned by devoted coolies, telling some Eastern potentate that you can give him five minutes. I understand that being in a bank in the Far East is one of the world's softest jobs. Millions of natives hang on your lightest word. Enthusiastic rajahs draw you aside and press jewels into your hand as a token of respect and esteem. When on an elephant's back you pass, somebody beats on a booming brass gong! The Banker of Bhong! Isn't your generous young heart stirred to any extent by the prospect? I am given to understand--'

srs 06:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Birth?

Wasn't Wodehouse born in India? I thought so? Can anyone corroborate this? Gautam ^Discuss 08:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

No - he was born in Surrey, England. - DavidWBrooks 13:24, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infertility

"He had no natural children, owing to his having contracted mumps as a young man."

Do we know for sure that he had no biological children due to this? Infertility isn't the sort of thing a man (especially at the time in which Wodehouse lived, I should imagine) would find easy to say even in an autobiography, less still to tell another person so that they could put it in a diary somewhere for P.G.oholics to unearth as evidence, so I think we need some citation. Quite apart from the fact that some married couples consciously decide not to have children between them, although it is true that mumps can cause sterility in men, my grandfather had it as a youngster and I think it is fair to say that I am living proof of the fact that it doesn't necessarily apply to all!

CO.

Define "youngster"? I've heard that mumps cause infertility only if contracted after adolescence, but that may be mere folklore. —Tamfang 22:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Seventy Years

The intro sentence says that Wodehouse "has enjoyed enormous popular success for more than seventy years" - is this right? Seventy years ago was 1937, whereas Wodehouse's first book was published in 1902. The intro sentence implies that Wodehouse didn't become popular until 35 years into his career, something that I find hard to believe. --BehemothCat 07:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The last edit was to add that word has, to remove the implication that PGW is no longer popular. Before that edit, the sentence made sense: PGW "enjoyed popular success" from about 1902 to 1975. —Tamfang 05:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Paint and the Shoe

I am just about to add a trivia pointing out that he used the "paint and shoe scene" in two different books - "Mike" and the Blandings book "Something New". How often did he lift scenes from other books? It seems to me that he got to that point in the plot and said "oh drat, I've got a paint splashed shoe again!", and decided to play to the reader's groans by lifting the scene almost word-for-word.

[edit] British vs. English

Most UK-related articles seem to be battlegrounds for recurrent petty wars between "British" and "English". The two most recent examples on the PGW article being on 2 August 2007 (deleting "British") and on 9 September 2007 (deleting "England"), going both sides, alike only in their being both concealed with fake WP:MINOR edit tags and deceptive edit summaries.

On the one hand, putting "English" is as true and incomplete as only saying that Flaubert was a Normand writer or that Brautigan was an Oregon writer, and leave it at that. On the other hand, having only "British" (the sovereign nation, U.N. member, and passport) seems to triggers endless lame wars from both sides. Plus, English/England is an additional piece of information.

So I document here for the record (it was already documented in my edit summaries) that I had set the lead section and the infobox to what I see as an encyclopedic compromise:

(infobox) Nationality:  British (English)

(lead section) ...was a British comic writer from England...

And of course, I'm reverting the recent vandalism edit.

P.S. For similar reasons, the infobox documents his dual citizenship completely, with date and age of acquisition, as:

 U.S. (1955, aged 74)

— Komusou ^talk @ 15:30, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

When I took out what appeared to me to be a minor redundancy, I did not know this was such a touchy issue for some people. I have no interest in trying to force a point of view on what looks like a minority issue, so I'll stay away from editing this wording further. You might be a little more careful accusing people of "vandalism" or "deceptive" edit summaries. Perhaps that happens in some cases, but assuming it automatically is not good wikipedia practice. Mlouns 23:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Has it occurred to Komosou that there is a difference between England and Normandy? Large numbers of Anglophones would have to look up Normandy, or Oregon, to be sure what they meant. But England?? (He may also wish to consult a dictionary; the English adjective is Norman, even for Flaubert.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Isn't there a better solution than the awkward "British comic writer from England" in the opening sentence? I really don't care if you want to call him "British" or "English" or what, but this phrasing just limps -- and is especially clunky to describe a writer who was himself a master of sparkling phrasing. Mlouns 15:49, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I fully concur. The issue should arise for those writers who are not, or arguably not, English; for those of non-English birth, descent, or self-identification, it's necessary.

Wodehouse, however, was a Norfolk man, who was born in Guildford, schooled at Dulwich, and spent his life, before he left for America, in and around London. He was, and called himself, an Englishman; he ceased to be a British subject. This is bad writing, to make a non-existent point. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

For comparison, to call John Buchan English would be a clear error; to call Sir Arthur Conan Doyle English would be disputable, although we call Doyle Scottish, which is only slightly better. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Mlouns:

First a belated note about your 9 September 2007 post: the original text above was NOT about you at all. If you look at the diff links given, you'll see they were about two other users. (The second one deleted "England" while concealing the deed with a fake WP:MINOR tag and a deceptive "fixed cut-paste error" summary.) If you look at the article history, it just so happened that you came in a few hours later and deleted "British", also concealed as a WP:MINOR edit, but at least with a frank edit summary, so I reverted you with "rv as per talk page bis, third time this is concealed as a fake minor edit" but the talk page was already there and not about you.

As for your question today, I don't see another solution, but you're free to try and suggest. And I don't think that an encyclopedia's goal is to mimic his subject's writing, else not much people would want to read our articles about William S. Burroughs, Marcel Proust, or James Joyce. I'm not saying articles have to be flat, dry, and boring – for instance I have rewritten the Aunt Dahlia article trying to interpolate as much juicy Wodehouse quotes and inconspicuous running gags as possible while maintaining a Jeevesianly straight encyclopedic face, so I'm not adverse to what you're saying – but encyclopedic tone and editing peace have to trump "sparkling phrasing".

Also, I think it seems awkward to you in this case only because there is such as massive, international conflation of "British" and "English" (thus a popular error makes it look somewhat redundant), but the format isn't so awkward if you consider "a British writer from Scotland", "a Canadian writer from Quebec", "a Belgian writer from Flanders", "a Spanish writer from the Basque Country", "a French writer from Corsica", "a Dutch writer from Holland" (not even going into former countries such as Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia) and other entities with a history of independance, nationalism, separatism, or terrorism (and ethnic-warring on Wikipedia). It's a compromise, and most compromise are a bit awkward, but better awkward than hawk war. (I'll get me coat.) — Komusou ^talk @ 17:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Pmanderson:

British/UK is the sovereign nation, the passport, the U.N. member, the embassies – all dictionaries and encyclopedias use only "British" and other sovereign nations, so even adding "English" as outlined above is already a compromise and more than what you'd get in standard encyclopedias. Only on Wikipedia's open model are articles so often sabotaged by nationalist or ethnic claims and counter-claims, usually from people who scarcely contribute to articles besides trying to claim as much famous people as possible for their "team". Furthermore, your putting only "English" is not simply unencyclopedic and thus immediately reversible, it is also an invitation to constant warring between "English" and "British" as was already the case on this article, and as is the case on most articles with similar problems. Your uncompromising, undiscussed change is thus unencyclopedic, POV, divisive, and reverted. (Also, if you have to fallback on petty personal attacks based on (mis)spelling, you implicitely admit having no point.) — Komusou ^talk @ 17:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what Kosumou's peculiar idea of nationality is intended to suggest; but the text on which he suggests is neither neutral, accurate, nor English. The claim that this is unencyclopedic is nonsense; the Britannica says English-born, which will cover Wodehouse's actual citizenship nicely. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I was updating the Adaptations section, but It's really hard to work with unproductive ethnic terrorists at it. Wikipedia is not Britannica, and none of the important points (constant edit wars without a compromise wording, sovereign nation, inaccuracy of not mentioning British/UK, POV of chosing a non-sovereign nation against the official UK, etc.) are addressed, and you didn't sustained or justified any of your claims. Please stop vandalizing while I initiate the next step of the Wikipedia:Resolving disputes process. — Komusou ^talk @ 18:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

For reference, I am not British, in any sense of that much abused word. I do, however, agree with Mlouns that this is bad and unidiomatic writing. I will be restoring the Britannica's ingenious compromise, which neatly fields the only real ambiguity here, whether Wodehouse is English or American.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Your "English-born writer" wording doesn't even namecheck the sovereign nation/passport, UK/British, which is incomplete and unencyclopedic. It's like only saying that Bush is a Connecticut-born politician, period, or that Brautigan is an Oregon-born writer, period. Not to mention how all Texas articles or such would be happy with just "Texas-born" and no mention of the U.S. It is not "ingenious", but just an incomplete, unencyclopedic, and divise weasel wording. There ARE reasons why Wikipedia is slowly burying Britannica, and you showed one more. We don't have to repeat or follow Britannica's errors. — Komusou ^talk @ 20:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Wodehouse, of course, ceased to carry a British passport. Wikipedia will never prevail as long as it is edited by inventing rules like this. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course, physically having or carrying a passport is irrelevant to the point. Similarly to a criterion at a trial, the objective point is "What passport could this person have had?". Wodehouse had, and could have had still, a British passport, but no English passport since none exists. People are citizens of a sovereign nation, whether they bother to ask a passport or not; the fact that a given person has or could have a given passport is one simple and valid way of examining nationality. It is of course not the only one, Wodehouse's nationality at birth is citizen of the UK, but against nationalist claims the passport criterion makes examination easier, because it cuts very quickly through the British/English smog: British passport? Yes. English passport? No. — Komusou ^talk @ 10:12, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RFC (British vs. English)

• Copy of RFC statement: Nationality description (general recurrent issue): in the lead, "British writer" pertains to the official citizenship/passport (UK), but nationalists prefer "English writer" or "Scottish writer", etc. Encyclopedic compromise was "British writer from England". One editor edit-wars to replace the compromise with "English writer" only.

• Notes from nominator:
  • Please see a lot of initial ground already covered in the eponymous #British vs. English section above.
  • (P.S.) A third section was started just below, where other points have been made.
  • Far beyond this one article, this issue is massively recurrent on Wikipedia. I had it recently on British/Scottish Graeme Garden (stopped after a WP:ANI debate, archive), and right now I just saw it listed in 2 bio RFCs for Talk:Andy Murray (tennis)#Nationality and Talk:Colin McRae#Protected with the same problem/solution/war. Maybe some grouping of those 3 RFC's is possible? (I'm going to ping them both.) And apparently, we'll need an official policy to stop this, since even compromises don't work.

— Komusou ^talk @ 19:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

This issue is actually discussed in #British vs. English above. The examples which Kumusou would drag into this are not parallel; they are athletes on the UK team for various events, and for some of them there is likely to be a debate whether they are English or Scots. Neither of these applies here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC) For that matter, I see no effort on Komusou's part to compromise; he has now reverted three times to the same text, which I object to largely because it isn't English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you felt the need to re-state that it's discussed at #British vs. English when it was already clearly stated in the nomination... But the "British writer from England" wording was *already* a compromise between team B that only want "British" and team E that only want "English". If we have team B asking for "10" and team E asking for "20", and we compromise in the middle at "15", then your team E can't just come again and demande a new compromise between "15" and "20", or impose "20". You're not compromising, you're demanding it back to team E's "English" only, via a weasel wording that eliminates tream B's "British/UK" entirely. You can't claim compromising when you just try to impose one side's view and eliminate the other side's view entirely. You are the one not making any effort to compromise, so don't try accusing me of your own sins. — Komusou ^talk @ 20:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

You have now reverted four times in order to prevent a non-existent revert war, and preserve your badly written text. I trust you will reconsider in the next 24 hours. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:26, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course, reverting vandalism/information-removal/unencyclopedic isn't covered by the 3RR rule... — Komusou ^talk @ 20:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Please supply diffs of "vandalism". I'm sure ArbCom will be fascinated. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:13, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: I suggest we (Komusou and Pmanderson) both take a break or the night off, (1) so that we cool off instead of re-hashing the same points a 4rd and 5th time, and (2) so that cooler heads have the time to notice the RFC and hopefully provide us with food for thought we haven't even touched. [...] And ninthly, at any rate *I* am off. — Komusou ^talk @ 20:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An observation regarding the English / British debate

I've always been under the impression that for most of his life, Wodehouse considered himself more or less an American... :) Doops | talk 20:30, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

That would also be acceptable, although it would require somewhat lengthy explanation if we're going to use it in the first sentence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Right. I actually had a somewhat serious point below my joke: that perhaps another way out of this silly debate is to question why we feel the need for a nationality label in the first sentence. So many biographies start that way— elevating nationality much beyond its real importance. Doops | talk 21:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Now that's an idea. Feel free. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:21, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I've had a go. Feel free to revert if you don't like it. Tim Vickers 22:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Works for me. I see we still have "considered a quintessentially English writer" below, so any necessary point is made. Someone (Orwell?) remarked that Wodehouse's reputation in England was of importing Americanisms; so the connection with Runyon may be closer than we make out. His gansters speak Runyonese. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:38, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

frankly this is quibbling. He made his reputation in England long before the first American novels. He lived in america because of political problems after WWII. quintessentially English is just right as a description. DGG (talk) 06:18, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Tim Vickers: I'm sorry, but your proposal[1] can not be said to be a "compromise". Let me explain.

• Team 1 wants "British/UK" to appear. Team 2 wants "English/England" to appear. A merge was the honorable compromise, resulting in "British writer from England", keeping good-faith and goodwill members of Team 1 and Team 2 happy. However, your proposal is just Team 2 material, i.e. deleting "British/UK" entirely and leaving only "English/England". Thus your proposal is equivalent to describing Loreena McKennitt as "a singer and harpist. She was born in Morden, Manitoba." and leaving out entirely "Canada/Canadian" from the picture.
• Furthermore, I find it even more divisive in that it explicitely mentions "American citizenship" but never "British citizenship", so now many Brits would want to edit-war on such offence. I'm also unhappy with the placement, because it is breaking the previous link between two sentences, the one about his success, then the one about why he got famous for. Your bit about where he is born and lived is inserted out of nowhere in the middle.
• Also, it is inaccurate or incomplete since he lived between the UK and U.S., then mostly in France, then in the U.S., and it's hard to summarize all this and more in a single short sentence in the lead. Besides, the WP:LEAD is a concise summary that doesn't have to explain the detail of where someone lived.

For a compromise, both "British/UK" and "English/England" have to be somehow integrated, at a relative same level. They would include at least:

• (A, the original) ... was a British comic writer from England ...
• (B, based on original) ... was a British comic writer born in England ...
• (C, based on PMAnderson) ... was an England-born British comic writer ...
• (D, based on Tim Vickers) ... was a comic writer. He was born in England, UK, and became a U.S. citizen in 1955.

I am now editing to C, because of the issues I find with "D", and avoiding going back to A/B in a goodwill attempt to compromise with PMAnderson (I'm not ethnic-warring so I don't care much whether England or the UK comes out first in the sentence), without sacrificing the basic of the sovereign nation. It's just not possible to delete "UK" or "Canada" or other sovereign nations. Everybody is of course free to propose other versions or tweaks of these ones, but they should be justified, outlining what they have better than the above ones and why, so that an informed debate can take place. — Komusou ^talk @ 10:25, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

That's your POV, for which you are warring. Stop! Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

P.S.: whatever changes are done, please do not leave out the prominent HTML comment, it is important that any new person wanting to edit this bit be informed that it's an issue detailed on the talk page. — Komusou ^talk @ 10:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I have two objections.

• First, the "basic of the sovereign nation" is something Komusou has invented; it is neither policy nor practice, and I see no one who agrees with him. It is particularly unnecessary here: Wodehouse ignored sovereignty all his life, even when it would have been more prudent not to. Revert warring for this is abominable, and I will cheerfully endorse a conduct RfC.
• More seriously still, "England-born British comic writer" is execrable, unidiomatic, English, and I have so tagged it.

On the question of which method: I would accept C, with decent writing; but I prefer D: He was born in Surrey and lived in England and France, later becoming an American citizen. gives the facts; if anything is needed to conciliate the phantasm of the "basic of sovereignty", we can add "was born a British subject in Surrey".Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I find it sad that anyone considers political status to trump everything else in questions of cultural identity. —Tamfang 10:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

• I actually like the way the lead reads today, namely, "was a comic writer". However, if that is not acceptable, then I suggest for the lead, replacing nationality with the word "cosmopolitan". The exact specifics of his peregrinations are dealt with in the article. However, I should note that an English author is always a Brit, even when an ex-pat, and the normal rule is to be as specific as the subject allows. So one won't call Mao just an Asian. Of course one could always say "English author" and have the link point to English language. I do think that between the two, Team 2 has the better argument; but I would rather try to prevent future edit wars with a less than perfect compromise, than have the article be absolutely "right". I would pick version D in Septentrionalis' version. --Bejnar 20:50, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nationality

I've restored the adjective-free intro. Let me summarize the options:

• "British" — this draws the ire of English nationalists, Scottish nationalists, any nationalists who aren't fond of Britain.
• "English" — this draws the corresponding ire of unionists.
• "English-born British" or "British (born in England)" or some similar version — this, while perfectly accurate and NPOV, draws the ire of those of us who prefer that literary articles not begin with clunkingly ugly writing. Several versions have been proposed; none is remotely beautiful.
• no adjective — whose ire does this draw? I don't know.

The nationalists and unionists can fight all they want to; but can't they go somewhere else to do so? This article isn't about nationality, it's about a writer (and, indeed, one notable, not to say notorious, for his geopolitical naïvite). Can't we leave him in peace? Doops | talk 14:56, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

• Still works for me. If someone else feels this has been cleaned up, feel free to remove the {{cleanup}} tag; but after seeing that Wodehouse was reticent to have his books adapted by Hollywood, I suspect this could use a general copyedit, preferably by a native speaker. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:09, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

This adjective-free version reads so much better. The missing adjectives are implicit in the following sentences as well as the side panel, so their information is still easily accessible. I vote to keep it this way. Mlouns 23:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I also removed the "cleanup" tag because I hate those stupid things - they are so vague as to be pointless (why not put a tag that says "This article could be better than it is" on every single article?) and a real visual obstacle. If others feel strongly that the tag is needed and replace it, however, I won't remove it again. - DavidWBrooks 13:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved here from article

[edit] Trivia

• Author Kyril Bonfiglioli appears to have modelled his series of crime novels on Wodehouse's style. Bonfiglioli's major characters (Mortdecai and Jock) bear a fun-house mirror relation to Wodehouse's Wooster and Jeeves.^[1]
• Hugh Laurie, the actor who portrayed Wooster in the TV series Jeeves and Wooster, has said that Wodehouse's novels saved him from depression.^[2] It has been remarked that Laurie's novel The Gun Seller bears much resemblance to Jeeves and Wooster.
• Author Lawrence Sanders based his character Archie McNally, the bonvivant sleuth and head of Discreet Inquiries for his patrician father's Palm Beach law firm, on an amalgam of Wodehouse's characters Jeeves and Wooster. ^{[citation needed]}
• Wodehouse made use of the Paint-on-the-Shoe scene in both Mike, chapter 49 and the Blandings book Something Fresh, chapter 9. Apart from character names and a few changes to fit the different plots, the scenes are practically identical.

Seeing the above move - I don't mind trivia sections in general, but this list is WAY too trivial. Good job removing it from the article - DavidWBrooks 19:36, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The last actually says something interesting: Wodehouse abandoned Mike so far that he felt free to mine it for material. But this probably belongs in a discussion of the book. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:05, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Writer of that paragraph here: Yes, it hasn't progressed, so I'm happy to see it go. (Not to happy about the rv wars here, honestly, English/British???? Get a life, boys!!) The main reason for putting that trivia there, and the accompanying talk section, was to see if others knew if he did this often. There were no bites, so it seems if this was a one-off. While poor literary style, I found it amusing when I ran across it (I read Something Fresh first) in Mike. And amusement was what Wodehouse is all about, after all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robbak (talk • contribs) 09:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Old Age Photo

Is it really necessary to include the old wrinkled photograph of PG's last days? The younger version seems sufficient. At any rate, we don't do the same for film actors of yore, do we? Not even for other authors.220.226.83.31 (talk) 15:32, 28 November 2007 (UTC)Sourav.sg

Compare William Butler Yeats, George Bernard Shaw, and Bertrand Russell. The well-known image of W. H. Auden in old age does seem to be missing, unfortunately, but the photo given is from 1953. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:03, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-semite

It might be in the article already somehwere, but its not particularily clear and I havnt read the whole thing, but it seems the fact that Wodehouse was a Nazi-sympathiser has been ommited from the article, and even if it has been added its a big enough thing to go under a 'Criticism' or 'Controversy' section. I dont have a source to hand, but I can probably find one, however I thought it was quite a well known fact that Wodehouse was an anti-semite. I can tell you now Im not one of those eidtors who go running around tagging everyone as anti-semitic, but this guy was (as was notbale of many people of his day, especially in the higher echelons of British society). I think it deserves a mention at least as Fagin has a mention of a possible anti-semitic caricature of a Jew, and Wodehouse was far more clearly anti-semitic than Dikens.172.213.64.230 (talk) 00:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about his anti-semitism; it may merit a mention if you can find some legitimate sources that discuss anti-semitism in his work. He was, however, not a Nazi sympathizer: it is fairly clear that it simply never occurred to him that his co-operation with the Nazis during his imprisonment in France would be construed as treasonous by his countrymen. As far as I know he was without politics. He attests to these facts himself in his interview with The Paris Review, and (if I recall correctly) Robert McCrum reaches the same conclusion in his biography Wodehouse: A Life. — Dan | talk 00:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I suppose we should assume good faith and therefore not regard that comment as a troll. So we'll just regard it as absurd. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 02:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me Im no troll, the Nazi-syupathiser part may seem unsubstantiated (however living in France during wartime dosent stop you being a Nazi-sympathiser), personally im slightly doubtful of that as well, seing as his writings seem to carry an anti-autocratic theme. However I have been told, that he was an anti-semite, and have read it 'somewhere; (yes I know... Ill try and get a source), however I have only been told that he was a Nazi-sympathiser by someone I know, who I doubt is an expert, and probably equated his anti-semitism (if it existed, which I think it did, but this was not uncommon for men of his time) with Nazism. I do not wish to slander the man, I like his writings, I simply picked this up and thought that it was worth mentioning in his article if it is true. As I said I dont have a source for it yet and its perfectly understandable you dont want to take my word for it. If I cant find a source, you will, and I will, just have to assume I got this rumour from an erroneous source.172.213.64.230 (talk) 02:17, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

His life in France has been quite well documented - it's the only interesting part of his life from a biographer's point of view - with no serious allegations of Nazi sympathy or anti-Semitism. So when you write "the fact that Wodehouse was a Nazi-sympathiser has been ommited from the article" (not "I once heard that ..." or "it seems to me that ..." but "the fact that ...") you can hardly be surprised if you get un-sympathetic responses. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 02:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Just semantics, Im not really good at phrasing thing in a way that does me any favours, what I meant was 'If it was a fact that he was an anti-semite, this should not be excluded form the article), and in the last few minuets Ive been doing some reasearch and now say Ive got to amke an apology to the guy. TBH I didnt really know enough about his life in the first place to start commenting on what I thought was the case, but I now see I got the idea that he was a 'Nazi-sympathiser' and 'antisemite' simply from the fact that I had heard he was involved in making anti-semitic propaganada for the Nazis, but researching this further I found that 1. He did this against his will being held captive 2. He couldnt of been a notable Nazi-sympathiser or he wouldnt have been imprisoned for a year. Ill remebr to do more research before I comment, I think I must have got this guy either confused with another of those British Nazi-propogadarists, or simply drawn conclusions without having all the evidence, sorry for wasting your time (can delete the section if you want, since its kind of a slander).172.213.64.230 (talk) 02:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Nicely answered - I'm sorry if I sounded too pompous in my first response to you. (If only all wikipedia discussions went this well!) Merry Christmas! - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy

I don't think that this article gives due prominence to the controversy of Wodehouse's wartime broadcasts. Whilst the controversy is now often given undue prominence in discussions of the author, it seems strange that what is, in some ways, the defining incident of Wodehouse's life has been buried in a section titled "Life in France". As mentioned in the section above, it's pretty much the only part of Wodehouse's life that Biographers (and journalists) are interested in. Any thoughts? 138.253.249.67 (talk) 09:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] P.G. Wodehouse discrepancy

In the Lord Haw-Haw, in the notes section, it claims that Wodehouse broadcast under protest. However, in this article, it claims he did it under his own free will. Neither claims are referenced although there is a reference in this article that states Wodehouse "was naive and foolish, but not a traitor". Does anyone know a citable source that can clarify his stance further as to coerced or otherwise? I have posted a similar message on the Lord Haw-Haw talk page. StephenBuxton (talk) 12:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Looking further at it, it appears that it was recently (17th May 2008) edited by a user who only made that one edit. I have been bold and reverted it, however I think a bit more citation is needed. Or does that reference on the paragraph cover the whole paragraph? StephenBuxton (talk) 12:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Below is verbatim from ODNB.

There he was tricked into making five humorous broadcasts on German radio, of wholly innocent content, to the United States, then not at war, about his experiences as a prisoner.

Not a single one of the charges against him was true. The MI5 investigation—tragically for Wodehouse not made public in his lifetime—found no evidence whatsoever of treachery.

Lucian Sunday (talk) 13:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up, both on here and the Lord Haw-Haw article - much appreciated! StephenBuxton (talk) 16:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)