Talk:P'ent'ay

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Is P'ent'ay actually a religion, or does it generally describe converts to Pentecostal denominations? I've changed "P'ent'ay religion" to "P'ent'ay community." -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:53, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Orthodox Tewahido similarities 1.1 Response 2 External links 3 Reword introduction 4 Please sign your comments 5 Statistics 6 Rating

[edit] Orthodox Tewahido similarities

It is important that we keep this article about Pentay christians and not about Orthodox christians. This article should only talk about the identity, history, experience, past struggles and all current issues regarding Pentay christians. Also this is not the place to argue, compare and contrast Pentay with Orthodox Tewahido and judge Pentay christians. Since both of these religions consider themselves christians, they might think all biblically supported belief statements belongs to them as well while disregarding that the beliefs need to be practiced or lived by in order to be labels a belief statement. Accordingly,it is important that both Orthodox believers and Pentay believers or their Wikipedia article contributors write about these issues only on their respective articles instead of adding information about their religion on another religion's article and dictating or changing other articles of other authors. So all those concerned please try to avoid creating problems and unnecessary arguments. thank you God bless you! Habeshawoman

I write as a neutral Wikipedia editor, without having declared whatever my personal beliefs may or may not be, and I haven't written anything that could be construed as "judging" anyone. But it is certainly within reason to point out that practically, everything so far mentioned as a "belief" in the "belief" section is also found in the Orthodox beliefs. I admit I don't know everything about Pentay beliefs, and am open to learn, but so far I have not seen anything in this section that would make them unique or set them apart. Are you aware of any actual doctrinal differences that would distinguish them from the Orthodox? If so, I think that would be more encyclopedic. If you state that "these are the Pentay beliefs", and then list things that Orthodox also believe, it seems to create a false impression that these are unique distinguising beliefs not shared by Orthodox, for example, the necessity of being "born again". This would be a false impression, since Orthodox clerics have also stressed the necessity of being "born again", as indeed have all Christian clerics beginning with Christ the rabbi speaking to Nicodemus. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I understand you did not declare your belief, but it is kind of obvious.

Anyway lets assume Pentays have the same beliefs as Orthodox Tewahido christians. That would not give neither Orthodox nor secular individuals the right to interfere in the daily life and worship of Pentay Christians by constantly declaring that "Pentays have the same belief as Orthodox." That would be unreasonable to do. So the same way, please please avoid from dictating what is or should be on the identity of Pentay christians. I would appreciate it if you do that. If you refuse to do that and if i respond with biblical proof, it will lead to arguments and insults. Such problems have been going on for many decades so it will not be different now. And It was because of such arguments, insults and such belief of self-superiority over others that the derogatory term "Pentay" started and those helpless christians had no choice but to accept it like Christ whp was insulted and hated himself. So this is a sensetive and old issue.We can wonder about why most Orthodox Tewahido christians don't follow or live by their faith or why they believe in mary and angels etc. But such kinds of discussions never end positively. So please lets avoid it. I don't want to accuse Orthodox christians or anyone of practicing false christianity or not living like a christian. I was a dedicated orthodox myself, but i know discussing sensetive issues like this did not have good results before. IF you are curious if these similarities really do exist, you can study more about Orthodox or experience raw Orthodox practices themselves in Ethiopia.Good luck.God bless You.Habeshawoman

I am having trouble understanding what the fuss is about. I have been very careful not to say anything that could be construed as judgemental, and I haven't seen anyone, at least on this article, interfering with Pentays' right to believe what they wish. If it just happens to be the same thing, pointing that out is simply pointing out a fact, it certainly does not preclude Pentays from deciding to believe something else down the road, if that's what they decide. So I must plead innocent of trying to dictate what Pentays "must believe", by simply pointing out where it is similar. Of course the Word of the Gospel explicitly does not allow "self superiority", for any practitioner of either church. I am really just trying to learn what the doctrinal difference really is, and so far what I have seen in the way of doctrinal differences (actually nothing) doesn't seem to be significant enough to merit anyone getting upset or fighting over. I need more info to understand why it is not "much ado about nothing". For example, I had no idea "Pentay" started as a "derogatory term", I was sure that it came from "Pentecost" which is assuredly a positive concept in every Church I have ever heard of, and even if it is derogatory, it seems to have been embraced by the Churches so described, or we wouldn't have the article at this title. The actual derogatory term I have heard used in the past for protestants in Ethiopia is "Tsere-Maryam", meaning of course literally "one who is Anti-Mary", this may have something to do with the theological schism. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 17:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, you mentioned above, that Tewahedo "believe in Mary and Angels", which is indeed correct. If Pentays on the other hand do not believe Mary existed or that Angels exist, that would indeed be a unique differentiating factor, one that ought to be mentioned in the article, instead of only mentioning all the things that are common to all other Christians. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 17:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that Pentay practitioners along with (most) Protestants in general believe in the Virgin Mary, but do not venerate her to the degree that the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches do. (Speaking from my own experience, for what that's worth, in Methodism the angels and Mary are mentioned in hymns etc. though not really discussed, other than the story of Christ's birth.) There would also be differences regarding the role and position of the clergy. Obviously there are doctrinal differences between the churches or they wouldn't be separate in the first place — I'm sure much of this can be traced back to Martin Luther and/or the rise of Pentecostalism. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

But unless I'm mistaken, Luther's schism arose because he did not recognise the authority of the Pope of Rome, or the Catholic practice of selling indulgences. Since the Tewahedo never accepted the authority of the Pope of Rome either, and never sold indulgences, I don't see how Martin Luther would account for any concrete difference between Tewahedo and Protestants. To explain what the real distinguishing characteristics are, I suspect what you said about the "degree of veneration" for Mary might be more on track. Shouldn't this be addressed in the article, by someone who is knowledgeable about exactly what the distinction is in the "degree of veneration" ? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

You are using amharic fonts so i am sure you are ethiopia and you already know about ethiopia enough. So I hope and i pray that i am not talking with someone who is trying to waste my time. But I will try to tell you some information. all in all it is important that you experience both pentay religion and orthodox religion to know about them deeply.

first of all, pentay doesnot believe mary did not exist.(lol) We honor her and she is the most blessed woman. Actually we respect her more than Orthodox because unlike Orthodox we don't believe in her, we only acknowledge her. By not putting Mary (a human being) in a million places in our church and by not worshipping, believing and praying to her we give honor to her faith in God not in herself. She would be devastated if she ever knew that she was being worshipped and prayed to by millions of people instead of just being honored. That is too bad. I was a dedicated Orthodox tewahido myself until i finally learned about its issues. Over the last few years, Orthodox Tehadeso church members have been influencing many Orthodox Tewahido churches and the ETOC is becoming more and more like Pentay christians. So don't be surprised if ETOC (especially in America) appears similar to Pentay. Anyway the real ETOC /also Ethiopian Orthodox church union, which i have been part of for many many years is different. I left the Orthodox church Because of its disregard for the word of God when it comes to teaching sound doctrines. the Ethiopian Orthodox Church Doesnot believe in the creation story that is found on the very first verse of the bible "God created the heaven and earth" the orthodox church due to its contentation to the word of God has gone to the extent of asserting that "lefafe tsedeq(a litreature written during emperor zerayacobs period) is better than the european bible" therefore I kindly urge you to read this slowly with an open heart and judge by your self as to wheather the doctrines and practices of The Ethiopian Orthodox union Church are really based on the word of God-the Bible. and therein let me proceed with the evaluation of the reasons I left the Ethiopian Orthodox Union Church and became a Pentay.

Christianity and the Ethiopian Orthodox Union Church- a brief historical review

One of the 15th Century EOUC(Ethiopian Orthodox Union Church) Scholar Abba Giyorgis the Gascha asserted that The EOUC was established during the pre-canon era prior to 50 ad.Following that to our dismay we find that the EOUC clearly believes and thus teaches that the EOUC has been on the face of the earth since the first century ad. This essentially paved way for wrong beliefs and misconceptions among the lay men that the organization was built upon strong foundation of unquestionable apostolic teachings and practices.

The danger therein was of the magnitude of eternal separation from biblical doctrine as we shall hence forth present to you. misconception and immature nature and belief of EOUC adherants furthered an unbiblical teaching and wrong brand of nationalism that the word ethiopia appears in the holy word of God more 40 times. Though later we will with out a doubt prove that the Bible mentions the word 'Ethiopia'only one time and that still is uncertain as to wheater or not it is referring to the contemporary political boundary called 'Ethiopia'. Though on the brand of nationalism no matter how attractive his (abba giyorgis the gascha's) proposal might have seemed it lacked several points of consistancy with The Ethiopian history in general and the view of Ethiopian Scholars and historians prior to Abba giyorgis the Gascha.

Therefore it is of grand importance to know what 'Ethiopia' is, when christianity arrived at its shores and when was the EOUC established as well as brief world Church history as to know the international historical forces involved in to molding the present day Ethiopian Orthodox Union Church. The Country 'Ethiopia' and the Bible: The word Ethiopia both on the KJV as well as on the amharic bible,which was sinisterly translated and recorded by the EOUC, appears more than 40 times but the question remains is it as such on the original scrolls of the Hebrew Bible? The answer no matter how much it pains me to say it is NO. The Word translated Ethiopia is 'cush'. And if you pick up any historical book clearly cush is not Ethiopia but rather southren Sudan That is Why the good news bible edition of holy Scriptures reads psalm 68:31 as " Princes shall come out of Egypt; and the Sudan shall soon stretch out her hands unto God." instead of the normal quibble of Ethiopian Orthodoxs and some misinformed Ethiopian Evangelicals of the "Ethiopia Shall soon streach her hands to God." Further scriptual evidence of the land of the cush not being the present day 'Ethiopia' resides on the very first book of the Holy Bible which reads: "And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia(Cush in hebrew)." Genesis 2:13 Pray tell me which river encompasses (totally circulates) Ethiopia? none what about southern sudan the nile-the Nile clearly compasseth the whole land of Southern Sudan and which by coincidence was called 'cush'!!!! What about the word 'Ethiopia' how did it end up being written on nearly all the translations of the bible? some have asked. The answer to this lies in the Greek meaning of the word 'Ethiopia' and the first translation of the Hebrew Bible in to the Greek langage around the 4th century BC by hebrew scholars commonly referred to as the septugent which was a base for the translation of nearly all the former translations of the holy bible. The Word 'Ethiopia' in Greek means Ethio-Black, Pia-faced therefore meaning "Black faced" The first translation of the hebrew bible in to greek read all the words that should have been translated 'cush' in to 'ethiopia' considering the colored faces of the southern sudanese which is still evidenced as for the contemporary Ethiopians the Word has no meaning for we Ethiopians are not black(dark) faced people but are rather light skined people.Following the Septugents pattern all the other bible translations translated the Word 'cush' in to 'Ethiopia'. As for the Word 'Ethiopia' it really as truth compels me to say that occured only Twice in the entire Bible and that is in Act8:27 which reads: "And he(philip) arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship." The EOUC adherants and some misinformed Ethiopian Evangelicals still boast over this verse. Especially the cultic mebers of the EOUC blatently assert thier cultic organization was established by this eunch from 'Ethiopia'. All this clearly portays the lack of information in the EOUC mebers and their complete disregard for the Word of God. The only thing that these parties failed to recognize is that the ancient greeks concidered Ethiopia as The present day Southern Sudan a land for Dark skinned individuals and not the Contemporary Ethiopian Civilization nor the ancient axumite civilization which was well at hand during the period of the writting of the book of acts by the apostle luke.

So When did Christianity arrive at the Ethiopian Shores: Church history clearly gives us something to be ashamed of as ethiopians yes we killed The apostle matthew who as a missionary served in the contemporary land of Ethiopia wherein though we do not have much information it is inferred that he tried to saw a seed for the Gospel among the axumites or in other words those contemporarly called 'Ethiopians'.Encyclopidea brittanica edition of 2003. Though to our dis appointment we find that he was not that much successful in gaining converts and later he himself was martyered by the hand of the so called "land of christians-ethiopians" That amounts to why we do not find not even a single shread of christian heritage such as churches scriptures paintings etc.. untill the Forth Century Ad in Ethiopia(hereafter used in the commonly accepted political boundary). Bishop Fremnatos the pioneer Christian Church establisher in Ethiopia it was on the turn of the the 3rd crntury that our lord by his zeal that ethiopia might have the gospel of salvation that he allowed the death of devout syrian christian merchant on the port of adulis (present day near messawa eritrea)by bandits his two sons left on the port for noone to take care of them. When this information reached the axumite king he ordered the two yong men to stand before him in his house hold and serve him by being tutors for his young son and heir to the throne Ezana. the two young christians delegently served the Lord and the king and had a great impact rather influence on the upcoming knig Ezana who by the way was a person filled with occulant reasoning and practies. on the accomplishment of their task and the adoration of Ezana as the king of Axum came about the Two yong syrians were given the oppotunity to return to their mother land- syria. one of the brothers went back to Syria while the other one-fremnatos Went to Alexandria egypt to take stewarship and theological seminarious from the profound christian Bishop Atnatious and after reciving the title of a 'Bishop' Fremnatos retured to Ethiopia(Axum) to spread the Gospel of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ.At this time the pagan King Ezana allegedly said that he had seen a cross in his dream and professed to be a baptized christian and as history plainly puts it he used to give huge amounts of donations to the church whenever he won a carnal battle in the name of our very lord who taught us that "those who raise a sword shall die by the sword" and further in neglect and disregard to the word of the apostle paul through divine inspiration which reads: "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.." 2 corinthians 10:3-6 And "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Ephesians 6:12-17 His pagan influence has with out a doubt cast a stumbling block in the missionary work from the beginning of the Christian Church in Ethiopia which had as its head quarters axum. The events that came afterwards have had a significant role in the erroneous out looks held in the present EOUC. Bishop Fremnatos being old ordained jewish clergy men as christian ministers with the idea that they had atleast oldtestement scriptual knowledge in comparison with the gentile christians who lived most of their lives worshipping those that were not gods by nature. with this idea he appointed a former jewish priest as the "high priest" and another jewish rabbi as a deacon in the newly established Church of the Heavenly Zion, the name used for the first church to be est. in Ethiopia. and further he appointed one one Jewish Christians in every local district (Kebele)to as a councelor and advisor however god his intentions were this system of ordination which didnot follow biblical standards of church governance, which asserts that each local individual congregations should be administrated by a plurality of men designated to be 'elders', led to the following errors which by latter days became the very doctrinal teachings and practices of the EOUC: 1.it brought various jewish traditions in to main line Ethiopian Christianity 2.it brought old testament traditions which were done and dealt with by our lord such as male circumsion, various dietary laws, sanctuary buildings, arc of the covenant, priestly administration, priestly robes, the laws concerning the menestrial cycle of women the concept of the 'clean' and the 'unclean' etc.. 3.It brought about the blasphemious teachings that of certain men designated as 'fathers of our souls' 'yenefs abat'and the title of 'rabbi' for Church ministers a teaching so contrary to the very doctrine of Christ which teaches us: "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ." Matthew 23:8-10 The message still remaines "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." 2Jhon9 therfore the Church transgresseth and not abiding to the doctrine in Christ did not have God and thus the EOUC came about as the offspring of Judeo- Christian and pagan mythologies and philosophies. International Church Events that Molded the EOUC: By the time Christianity arrived at the ethiopia shores the christianity had alredy made its way nearly through out europe following all the ways that lead to Rome. the Roman empire had accepted Christianity as the official state religion contrary to the doctrine of christ which tells us "to give to ceasor what belongs to ceasor and to God what belongs to God" The merge of Church and state resulted in the inevitable a pagan- Christian church which had greek philosophies attached to christian teachings. At that time the Church which was well known for its unity and brevity started to divide and disentegrate among itself church governors were battling for jurisdiction and with complete neglect to the Word of God in regards to church Goverance started using titles as Bishops, ArchBishops, Cardinals, Popes, Sinod etc... all unscriptual and quite francly antiscriptual titles and offices. The bible teaches us a simple methodology in regards to Church Government: each local and individual congregation called -local Church should be administrated by a plurality of elders designated as overseers,Bishops,Episcopos,Pastors and sheapherds. The erroneous form of administration led to division and the spread of heresy among the local churches at the period of history under discussion this later caused a division among the alexandrians and the romans The Ethiopian Church under the Alexandrian church came to the obediance to the teachings of the Coptic church which had its headquarters in alexandria the Coptic church assigned preciding bishops for the Church of Ethiopia and untill the late 1950s ethiopians didnot have thier own Church Leader!!! This Caused an open space among the church government and the church the bishops who are not acquinted to the Ethiopian langauge and culture did not have the clarity of sorting out things in the church further the Bishops who were usually equiped with political agenda by the Egyptian monarchy had sinister intentions rather than spititual ones. a good example would be the diabolical number of holidays in the church of Ethiopia as compared to the Coptic church which was institutionalized by the egyptian bishops who had as thier aim to creat lazyness and economic weakning in the highlands of Ethiopia so that ethiopia might not reach alevel of political and econmic strenght that it will block the life suppy of egptians- the nile. Internal conditions that gave way for the EOUC: with the passing of further time infact in the 9th century a jewish queen by the name of yodit destroyed a greater portion of the axumite ciziliation in an aim of wiping out christianity from the Ethiopian Highlands it is said that her conquest lasted a period of 40 years during which a large number of Churches and sacred books along with dedicated Christian scholars were wiped out the surviving Ethiopian Orthodox Church and its uninformed Clergy started writing liteatures which as there content clearly shows are full of malicious lies and false teachings as well as blasphemies out of the thousands up on thousands of these pieces of lireatures which became eventually endorsed by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church as spirit inspired scriptures were used in place of holy bible for reproof for correction for instuction and for teaching. out of the more than three thousand books 45 of them have had a significant role in the down fall of the spirit led life of the orthodox lay men as well as cleargy these books still have negative influences upon the Orthodox christian. and as the prominent historian Dr. Debeculu Zewdie, who happenes to be an Ethiopian Orthodox Union church meber himself, remarked "any critisism on these church books resulted[results] in Excommunication" on our analysis of the 45 books of which the index we will soon relese, I have found to my amzement the following erroneous teachings that bo not even need any biblical response as to prove they heresy, the following qoutes are only part of a much longer list of qoutes:

and let me start by saying this is why I left the Ethiopian Orthodox Union Church because of its demonic teachings such as

1.Concerning Creation

"Gabriel covered the earth with herbs and the heaven with stars" Book of zeke and Psalms

"Merkorios coveres the earth with herbs and the heaven with stars"Book of Zeke and Psalms

"Mary who created the big lights( the sun and the moon)' book of zeke and Psalms :

2.concerning the crucifiction

"Markorios who suffered and endured pain on the cross for mankind... who wore a crown of thornes on his head."Book of Zeke and Psalms

"I(Jesus) will count your(teklehamnots)Feaces (amoeba) as the blood of martyers and as my own crucifiction."Struggle of Teklehamanot

3.concerning Worship

"these two created beings(Mary and the Wooden Cross) deserve equal veneration as the creator (God) for they have been equal in honour." Prayer for Mary

"Mary deserves worship along with her Son"Prayer for the cross

"May God be praised the Cross too Mary too." praise for Mary

"come let us serve her and boedown to her."book of zeke and Psalm

4.Concerning Salvation

"he who dies in this monastry by feaces(amoeba) will enter the kningdom of God."the struggles of Teklehamanot

"He who eats of these pieces of bread will inherit the kingdom of god."the struggle of teklehamanot

"He who makes feasts in the name of teklehamanot will get salvation upto 15 generations.'the struggle of Teklehamanot

"He Who makes feasts in the name of gebremenfes kidus will inherit eternal life."the struggle of gebremenfes kidus

"who has not received what he asked for after asking you(mary) you have given him etenal life saved him from eternal hell."the glories of Mary

5.Concerning the remission of sins

"if you kill serpents on tuesday and thursday your sins will be remitted.'the struggles of Telklehamanot

6.Concerning Redemption

"Mary the Receemer..."the Glories of Mary

"Mary who was born to redeem the prophets before her."Book of Zeke and psalms "teklehamanot is the redeemer in heaven"Struggles of Teklehamanot

7.Concerning the final Judgement

and when Christ comes to Judge the World and when he sees the name of our lasdy written in gold on the foreheads of sinners he will stop his judgement and go away in fear."Glories of Mary

"each day you(Kristossamra) have you been given the covenant to take out the souls of sinners from hell to heaven"The Struggles of Kristossamra

8.Concerning religious tolerance

the King ordered the cutting off of the noses and tongues of those who followed stepehen."Glories of Mary Funnypart god blessed him for doing that

"Heretics should be killed" Jacob of sergut

9.Concerning the sabatth

And the trinity shall jump as Cows when the sabbath arrives'Book of Sabbath

10.Concerning Sodom and gomorrah

'the 12 apostles went and destroyed the cities of sodom and gomorrah...they took lot out of the city and baptized him."sinod of the apostles ...As clearly shown The Ethiopian Orthodox Union Church is not A Church of the newtestament it doesnot coincide with biblical truths and therefore i left the Church and began to grope for Truth else where in my search i had encountered several religious faiths for example the Jehovah's wittness'etc but none of them still did not coincide to biblical truth but finally i started studying what people call pentay.

Habeshawoman

[edit] Response

I read a few paragraphs and will look at more when I have time, but of what I saw, the teachings (eg Ethiopia supposedly comes from Black face in Greek) are identical with what European scholars, many of them not even pretending to be Christians, have determined, and have taught their own Protestants, who in turn have sent missionaries into Ethiopia to teach Ethiopians these same things. I confess I am sorry to see these foreign ideas are getting a foothold because they are not at all what Ethiopians books have always taught for centuries about their own history. Also in the very beginning you accused the Tewahedo Church of "worshipping" Mary, but that is a pov that could not be written neutrally into any article, because any Orthodox person would certainly deny worshipping Mary, or anything else but God in his Trinity. I am not here to argue, I am specifically looking for distinguishing characteristics of the Pentay religion or beliefs, that actually distinguish them from the Orthodox ones, that could be incorporated into the article itself. There is rarely anything to get emotional about on wikipedia, in the long run it is always only about separating what views can be verifiably cited, properly attributed, and stated neutrally, from what cannot, and keeping our own views and unpublished arguments out of that process. I will take a look at this material withthis in mind later on and see if there is any material that can be added to the article in order to explain the tangible difference between Pentay and EOTC, for people like myself who know nothing about it. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:55, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry about this. I expected that you would say all of this. You might not even know that such teachings exist in ETOC. About the history part, the fact/meaning of the word "Ethiopia" as contracted to sudan and EThiopia should give you some basic proof. Anyway you don't need to talk with Europeans to know about the problems in the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahido church. You just have to live and experience it. Now It is simply a collection of heresay and priest tales. Orthodox Tehadiso Church has been helping ETOC in many ways. I am happy that you don't know all these problems of Orthodox Tewahido. Believe it or not, your understanding is influenced by the hundreds of Tehadiso members that are questioning and changing my beloved Tewahido church. In the future, all of Ethiopians will go back to pre-14th century ETOC which was accurate form of christianity.

Habeshawoman

Actually reforms began before there was a Tehadeso Church. Haile Selassie initiated several reforms, and he is on the record as stating numerous times that everything was contained in the 81 books of the canon. Never mind all that extra canonical junk, it could have been written by Communists or anyone for all I know. As for "pre-14th century", the Fetha Negest was in use as the Law of the Land between 1563 and Haile Selassie time, and it again clearly states that only the canonical books of the Bible accepted at Nicea are to be used and none other, and names them all. Before that, the Apostolic_Church-Ordinances stating the exact same thing were already used from the very foundation of the Church. Spurious writings authored by charlatans may have arisen from time to time, but please do not represent any of these as the teachings of the authentic Orthodox Church. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 19:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

You have written an awful lot, but I just now read over the last part that is a numbered list of "demonic teachings" attributed to Orthodox Church. I must confess that I am not familiar with any of these works and have never heard of any of them being canonical, and I don't know who wrote them or why an Orthodox believer of the Bible should pay them any attention. I agree that they are demonic and have no place in the canon and are not included as the Word of God. If any bishop is using any extra-canonical books like this as an authority, it should be brought up with his superiors. Where do these books come from, I have never heard of any of them - "Book of Zeke" ? "Struggle of TekleHaymanot" ? "Prayer to Mary" ? etc. These books are not in the canonical Bible any more than the Talmud,and should not be represented as the teaching of any authentic Christian Church. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 19:08, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

"please do not represent any of these as the teachings of the authentic Orthodox Church"

well, i will do my best not to do that. But it is not easy to ignore the current horrible situation of my Orthodox church. It needs revival and Orthodox Tehadeso can do that revival for Orthodox Tewahido. It is tough work. ETOC has been like this for many many years. Putting tradition over the word of God, praying to mary,praying to angels, you see thousands of disabled people in ethiopia streets begging in the name of mariam and angels. it is just embarrassing. Even more embarrassing when you see statues and painting of hundreds of angels on the wall. the church was supposed to be the place where we worship and think only GOD.

Some of the teachings in gedams and some rural orthodox church branches are just satanic and pagan. But you know, sometimes it can be sad and funny at the same time. Actually what some of my former orthodox tewahido family members were told by priests in order to get into heaven is just crazy and funny. But one can't laugh too long, it is the life of millions of people that is at stake. It is important for all Orthodox tewahido people to know the false teachings of Tewahido as soon as possible. Hopefully Tehadiso can change Ethiopia by bringing Ethiopian Orthodox back to its old orthodox/correct belief. With God's help, I think Tehadiso members can achieve more of that. Habeshawoman

This is ironic since you pleaded with me not to be judgemental, I assume you do not have any board in your eye to enable you to so clearly see these specks in others eyes. To my knowledge, there is no statue anywhere in any Orthodoc Church. When I visited Ethiopia a few years ago I saw and heard some disabled people begging in the name of Mariam and angels, and some even in the name of Muhammad and Allah, I don't know what can be done about this but at least they are not hostile and arrogant like some of the panhandlers in my own country. The EOTC church already has procedure for removing any bishop who teaches or allows any such unbiblical teaching as you allege, but I personally agree that some reform may be needed to recover from the days when the hierarchy was appointed by the Kremlin, to get back to the pre-1974 correct days, and any help in doing that is appreciated. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 20:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Well it is not ironic to me that you are saying all these things at the end. Remember?...that was why i told you we should not discuss such issues because the ending is never good. As you can see, it is always good to avoid such kinds of sensetive discussions because we are very different in many ways. Pentay members want to practice their beliefs, sadly other christian branches that we know don't do that. Some might write they believe this and that to appear normal but what good is it if most of its members and even leaders are not living it? In some cases as i stated on my big comment above, Tewahido even adds so many teachings against christianity.

Anyway Tehadiso is bringing and might bring more inside revival in the Orthodox Tewahido church, but until all Tewahido members change, we will always be different. Unless we use only the Bible (not traditions) for our belief and unless we see Tewahido church stop its paganism teachings, Tewahido will continue to lose its members to the gospel.

Anyway it is important that we avoid measuring Pentay article by Orthodox Tewahido declarations. So i have to remove the unnecessary additions about Orthodox belief on the article about Pentay. If you really want to mention that information about Orthodox, please place that info on the Orthodox Tewahido article instead. Thank you very much. Habeshawoman

Please please stop putting Orthodox tewahido information on Pentay article. why do you continue to revert the article? I plead to you. I wasted many hours trying to show you what we believe and why many Ethiopians are leaving the Tewahido church. I spent all these hours explaining to you so that you would avoid putting unnecessary information on the article.

Obviously after reading your responses, you are far from neutral and you should not put what you personally want to say about Pentay. We Pentays should not have to prove our faith or be forced to validate it by Orthodox members or any secular people. We can't change our belief and we can't declare we are the same as orthodox overnight. We are just different and you should respect that. Wikipedia is a professional place and you should restrict yourself from acting this way. We are what we are. I proved to you why we believe we are different, if you don't agree to that, you should not continue to change the article and imply your opinion. If orthodox members imply and declare a faith statement similar to ours we are NOT going to interfere in any way or change the Orthodox article. So please avoid from doing that. (you even have a choice to write your opinion on another article, maybe Orthodox article, so please don't do that here) I am pleading you. Again i am going to keep it back to what it was before,so please stop adding that info about Orthodox on this article about Pentay. I am pleading to you. Thank you. Habeshawoman

There is no reason not to put it there, and there is good reason to put it there. All you have done is reproduce a lot of hearsay here about what you think the Ethiopian Orthodox Church believes, none of which can be substantiated through any written or published sources whatsoever. Wikipedia does not operate in consideration to hearsay, and on the contrary I have mentioned several verifiable sources that confirm that only the canonical works are considered authoritative scripture at all times in Church history from the beginning until now. Aside from what the Ethiopian Church believes, as I have explained, without this statement the article seems to be implying by omission that Ethiopian Orthodox faithful are not "born again" or do not believe in this, when the truth is that the same doctrine IS found in the Ethiopian Orthodox church, and a neutral article will make that point for the sake of fairness. Your argument that stating that the two churches share these doctrines in common, is somehow "dictating" what Pentays "must" believe, is obviously without basis. I merely want to make it clear that Pentays are not the only ones who consider themselves born again in Christ, so this is not a distinguishing characteristic, and I would prefer the article to give more consideration to bona fide distinguishing characteristics, if there are any that can be identified. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 23:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The distinguishing characteristics should include what makes Pentay especially Ethiopian: what differentiates it from the same movement in other countries, i.e. what makes it special that is not already discussed more generally in the Pentecostalism article. This would have to include some kind of comparison and contrast with the Orthodox church, seeing how the latter is so intertwined with the country's history. However, distinguishing characteristics such as "demonic teachings", "most Orthodox Tewahido christians don't follow or live by their faith" (unlike other churches!?) etc. have no place in the article, I'm certain we'd all agree. But as this talk page is for improving the article, and not discussing the subject, it really has no place here, either. I am also quite sure that no one here is going to convince another to change his or her beliefs. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

The list of external links is becoming quite lengthy. I'm sure everyone would agree that a list of every P'ent'ay congregation would be overwhelming and excessive. Can the listing be pared down to just a few links (e.g. less than 5) about the denomination(s) in general? Is there a single listing somewhere else whose address we could list instead? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear userGyrofrg, you are correct the links are lengthy. But, i spent many hours searching for every single link and data, so for sake of my hard work i rather keep them there.. lol Anyway, it does show the unique diversity that is Pentay. It has origins of Pentecostals/charismatic, methodists, mennonites,Presbyterian, evangelicals and even baptists. It kind of amazes me how the wide denominations of Protestants are inside this label while still having very similar, single faith (faith statement) which is the belief in trinity and the works of Holy spirit at this era of christianity. I think this Christian unity is found only in Ethiopia, don't you? —the preceding unsigned comment is by EthioM (talk • contribs) 18:51, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's why I wanted to bring it up here first, I know this represents a lot of work on your part. As you've explained, I think the variety of links shows how "P'ent'ay", as an umbrella term, isn't very descriptive of its various denominations and affiliations. I don't want to come off as being officious but the Wikipedia guidelines are pretty clear about keeping external links to a minimum (see WP:NOT). Again, if there is a single website, or a few websites, that themselves contain many links to the various congregations, it would be better to link to those instead. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:41, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

P.S. If I'm not mistaken, Jehovah's Witnesses are referred to as such, not as P'ent'ay although, by definition, one might include them in the latter. If this is correct (I'm unable to cite a source for this, myself) then perhaps it is worth mentioning, as well. -- Gyrofrog (talk)

No problem, i will bring down the number of links. I will try to remove half of those which appear too similar with the others. Regarding Jehovah's Witness, I actually know a lot about its presence in Ethiopia after my travels to Addis Ababa, Dire Dawa and few rural areas. There aren't too many of them, just a few thousand. With Ethiopian Orthodox and other Ethiopian Christians denominations emphasizing the concept of the Trinity, they often differentiate Jehovah's witnesses from the rest of Christians easily. I believe this has to do with the general history of Christianity in Ethiopia. You can also see the same trend with Adventists. As you might know already Adventists came to Ethiopia much earlier than most other Protestant groups. However, with Sunday being nationally observed as the Sabbath day, the Adventist belief couldn't gain any momentum in Ethiopia. --EthioM

Thanks for your help! -- Gyrofrog (talk) 12:51, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reword introduction

I am going to reword the introductory paragraph so that it more closely matches earlier versions (prior to Jan. 1 2006). In its current state, the introduction (in my opinion) does not sufficiently establish context for those unfamiliar with the subject matter (e.g. Ethiopia is not even mentioned right away). And I thought it had previously been established that P'ent'ay is not a church or denomination, per se (though I see this isn't mentioned here; perhaps it was on a user talk page). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:20, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear wikipedia writers, Under the STATISTICS section and on the last sentence, it used to say this, "12 million Pentecostal members of Ethiopia" but i changed the "Pentecostal" part to "Pentay". I did this because it would alter the whole article otherwise. From the day they spread, as Orthodox myself, everyone calls the other "christians" Pentays. Everyone (including me) didn't really know the difference between pentecostal, baptist,lutheran, evangelical etc etc until recently. I understand the difference now, however we (the rest of ethiopians) still call them pentays. All their faith is also very similar anyway and they all jump up and down when they worship so there seems to be no differenc..lol. take care-nice work by the way. pretty accurate, nice additions.

ethiopian Guest —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.205.173.111 (talk • contribs) 20:35, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I understood the point of your edit, but regarding a subsequent edit: Wouldn't the Tehadeso Orthodox church be considered P'ent'ay in either sense? (i.e., that they are Pentecostal/Charismatic in their beliefs, but also in the more general sense that its members are not part of the Tewahedo Church). I have gone ahead and restored the wording. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:47, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

selam hi!! how are you sir?

ok about the Orthodox Tehadeso--it is very different from both Tewahedo and Pentay.

are you ethiopian sir?? I think these ideas would be much easier to understand for Ethiopians. Anyway, you have to realize the importance of tradition, scriptures kept orally and the past witnesses of God's presence in our orthodox Tewahedo church. We value this aspect in orthodox tewahedo and this is respected and sacred with the other orthodox church of Tehadeso. So in this way, we think tehadeso will probably represent our national Tewadeso church in the overarching catagorization of world christianity branches. So it would be a big mistake to put tehadeso with pentay. The pentays don't really believe in these things that we value and these things which we believe are very important for a christian faith and for the milliniums living endurance of our church.

ethiopian guest —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.161.30.54 (talk • contribs) 00:19, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

P.S. if you can, please take out the accent marks on the title Pe'nta'y. Make it simply Pentay instead of with the accents. This would make it easy for me to search it for next time and come back to chat with you guys.

1. Firstly I have created a redirect using the "Pentay" spelling, so typing that will still bring you to the article. I agree that the accent marks are inconvenient to use, however I do believe they should stay as they are (apparently) part of the transliteration into English.
2. OK, regarding "Tehadeso vs. Pentay": No, I'm not Ethiopian, but on the other hand this is the English Wikipedia, and so the ideas, concepts, etc. should be fully presentable in English.
3. I'm not saying it is correct to categorize Tehadeso as Pentay (but see below item 5), but on the other hand, it seems that there are other denominations (e.g. Lutheranism) which are not Pentecostal, yet Ethiopians would still call these "Pentay" (or, at least this article does). (Out of curiosity, what would Ethiopians call Baptists or Methodists, or do those have many converts?)
4. The article (at least in previous versions) indicates that the Pentay movement itself is fractured, not unified, so it seems there is a variety of beliefs and practices falling under this label (which, of course, was originally applied by those who are not part of these movements).
5. Finally the Ethiopian Orthodox Tehadeso Church article itself states that the Tehadeso church is pentecostal and charismatic in its beliefs.

-- Gyrofrog (talk) 02:54, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please sign your comments

By the way, would those using this talk page please sign their posts with something other than "ethiopian guest?" I can't tell if I'm responding to more than one person here. Please use ~~~~ (that's four tilde characters) to sign your comments, and please consider signing up for your own account. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Statistics

Can you please provide a source for both the statistic claiming its adherents constitute 16% of Ethiopia's population and is projected to reach 27% (I don't think the word "only" is appropriate, in the article, as well) by 2015? This seems like a great exaggeration to me (the latter more so). Protestants were 10% of the population (Catholics 0.9%, Tewahido ~50%, Muslims ~33%, and the rest animist/traditional) in the 1994 census, which was an increase of one or two percent from the 1984 census, I believe (the 61:33 Christian:Muslim ratio was the same in both censi(?), though). I can believe 16% for 2006 (though I think it's unlikely), but 27% in 2015 doesn't seem to follow the current rate of growth. -- Yom 04:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

To those who are interested in the statistics, you may subscribe to www.worldchristiandatabase.org to find a detailed info on the amount of members of each church that believe in the born-again theology as well as the Trinity. Accordingly, it is important to deduct the UPC and jehovah witnesses member population out of the overall protestant population of Ethiopia. If you can't subscribe, I will try to copy and paste the statistics below.

www.worldchristiandatabase.org

Your Location: Home / Country/Region / Christianity / Country: Ethiopia / Denominations for Country: Ethiopia Denominations for Country: Ethiopia Results 1 - 33 of 33

Denomination- Name- Year Begun- Christian tradition AC 2005
(Anglican Church (D Egypt) subscr subscr 700 )
(Apostolic Church subscr subscr 23,300)
(Armenian Apostolic Ch: V Addis Abeba subscr subscr 2,800)
(Broadsheet Readers' Clubs subscr subscr 1,000 )
(Catholic Church in Ethiopia: subscr subscr 550,000 )
(Ch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints subscr subscr 150)
(Chrischona Mission in Ethiopia subscr subscr 260)
(Christ Foundation Church subscr subscr 200,000 )
(Christian Brethren subscr subscr 30,200 )
(Christian Missionary Fellowship subscr subscr 39,200)
(Churches of Christ subscr subscr 135,000 )
(Emmanuel Baptist Church subscr subscr 52,000)
(Ethiopia Gospel Deliverance Church subscr subscr 27,100)
(Ethiopian Orthodox Church: subscr subscr 25,850,000)
(Evangelical Church Mekane Yesus subscr subscr 4,700,000)
(Full Gospel Believers Church subscr subscr 700,000 )
(God's All Times Association subscr subscr 300,000 )
(Greek Orth P Alexandria: D Aksum subscr subscr 760 )
(Internat Ch of the Foursquare Gospel subscr subscr 9,900)
(International Evangelical Church subscr subscr 2,200)
(Jehovah's Witnesses subscr subscr 30,200 )
(Light of Life Church subscr subscr 800,000 )
(Light of the Gospel Church subscr subscr 100,000 )
(Lutheran Ch of Bible True Friends in E subscr subscr 5,700)
(New Apostolic Church subscr subscr 1,300 )
(New Covenant Church subscr subscr 15,800 )
(other African indigenous churches subscr subscr 20,000)
(other Protestant denominations subscr subscr 15,000)
(Place of Paradise Ch subscr subscr 120,000)
(Seventh-day Adventist Church subscr subscr 250,000 )
(United Pentecostal Church of Ethiopia subscr subscr 900,000)
(Word of Life Evangelical Church subscr subscr 5,600,000)

As you can see from the 2005 stats, Ethiopian Orthodox christians are the majority of christians in Ethiopia with 25,850,000 members! The smaller branches which are known in Ethiopia as "Pentay" have a little more than 12,000,0000 members. Catholics are 550,000. And the Protestant groups who don't believe in the Trinity are: UPC 900,000 and Jehovah's witnesses 30,200.

Sorry people, i haven't posted for a long time. I am a very busy person and also have problem getting around this chatting section of Wikipedia. About the statistics, please do look at the referance page for that. The World Christian Database website has the most current (2005) statistics for various pentay (i.e.Protestant)groups and for the Ethiopian Orthodox church. They also have numbers for the small Jehova witnesses and catholic members. Lastly, you can check the recent Ethiopian general population numbers to do further calculations for its Muslim population. Best regards. [My user name is-EthioM P.S. i will try to find more time to be here.

That data doesn't work with the 1994 census, however, which lists approximately 26.5 million Ethiopian Orthodox adherents in 1994, translating to around 36-8 million adherents today. It's simply not possible that in 10 years of growth (an increase of 20 million people) the Church would have lost a million members. Moreover, the total of all those groups together only totals about 39.5 million, about 50-53% of the total population, whereas census data puts the number of all Christian believers at about 62%, a number which was stable between 1984 and 1994 (with Protestant and Orthodox balances changing some). Perhaps we should wait for the census that is supposed to come out this year to make any final conclusions. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 23:07, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I tried to log on here, why isn't it working? Anyway, in response to username "Yom" comment: unless you find an organization or a source that gives you the population for all denominations and branches of denominations, it would be impossible to know the statistics in a 3rd world country like Ethiopia. Secondly, even though most Pentay converts were from animists 50 years ago, now almost 70% of Pentay/Protestant converts came from and continue to come from Orthodox Christians so you shouldn't be surprised about the statistics. So Pentay presence can now be seen in urban areas too. According to people that live and study over there, the rest of Pentay converts come from Muslims, Jehovahs, animist, traditional etc. Some census data in 3rd world countries like Ethiopia can't even identify the difference between Ethiopian Orthodox Tehadeso and Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahido. The census will not tell you about Pentay members found in every rural town in detail with their specific denomination. The census will not even distinguish between Jehovahs and UPC or even (Kale Hiywot) Word of Life church. So don't lose your time or your sleep comparing between the estimated census data and the researched and accurate data from organizations like worldchristiandatabase.org

Best Regards..

That is ironic, since I can tell you that the former Emperor's rule was that these missionaries were allowed in the country and welcomed, but only on the condition that they tried to win non-Christians to Christ and left the Orthodox alone, who already worship Christ against all odds and adversity for 1700 years (Perhaps he figured, that's what Jesus would have said, win new souls but don't disturb the old ones) Therefore during his reign in the 50's, 60s and early 70s they were only allowed by law to operate in un-Christianised areas. That takes real dedication and is truly hard work, but harassing believers is quite easy. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 21:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is very accurate piece of history. The Emperor did just that. Surprisingly, more people are starting to be attracted by the protestant form of Christianity in Ethiopia. If it wasn't for the fear of violence against Pentay Christians, it is my opinion that more Ethiopians would have converted to Pentay at a faster speed. I don't know the exact reasons why for the turnabouts. We all have our personal opinions and assumptions, but only God knows what he is doing.

Who is changing the article? who said there are only 7-8 million Pentays in Ethiopia? Just the two big Pentay churches by themselves have around 8.5 million members! So whoever keeps changing the stats please stop. Thank you. Sincerely, Habeshawoman

[edit] Rating

I've changed the rating to Mid. I'm not sure if P'ent'ay includes all Protestant groups (altogether 10% of the population - possibly including the Ethiopian Orthodox Tehadeso Church?), but "High" seems a bit too high (no pun intended) of a rating given its recent arrival in Ethiopia. It has gained momentum over the years, though so I may be wrong. What do others think about the rating? — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 20:01, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The info so far is as accurate as it can get so A might be deserving. However as more people give their contributions to the article, you can raise the rating without any doubt. For instance, it would be nice if more people that belong to some of those churches can create a link article to them. But since most Ethiopians in Ethiopia don't have internet access, it would take some time before new details are added. Anyway, i will do my best to research more about some of these churches when i visit Ethiopia and contribute more to the article.

Best Regards.