Talk:Ozymandias (comics)

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This article was nominated for deletion on 16 March 2008. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Contents 1 Abilities 2 Analysis 3 Please, someone from Japan 4 Category:Heroes who turned evil 5 Question 6 Illuminatus! 7 =Homage in Watchmen#11 or 12 to an incident from Professor X's backstory 8 Fair use rationale for Image:Ozymandias.PNG

[edit] Abilities

The character catches a bullet with his hands and seems to be capable of several other feats that surpass the abilities of a normal human being. I wonder how he manages to do that. Shouldn't that be mentioned? 134.106.199.1 09:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's that he actually moves faster than a bullet, but he's able to anticipate where the bullet will hit and is able to move faster than the trigger is pulled. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.32.174.24 (talk) 16:53, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Analysis

I disagree with several points in this section. I don't think that Veidt likes to kill, but rather that his "sloppiness" surrounding the staged assassination attempt merely reflects his unbridled egotism. From his point of view, each of the deaths were logically necessary to achieve his goals, and I'm sure he felt that no one would be clever enough to trace his ownership of the businesses.

I'm not entirely sure analysis sections like these should even appear in articles, since they tend to be fannish and encourage speculation and "new research". -DynSkeet (talk) 11:42, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

It's also interesting to note that Veidt fits perfectly with the image of the ideal Aryan German. Ironically, he calls the Comedian "practically a Nazi," to which Rorschach points out that Veidt was more of a sell-out concerning the Keene Act. When Veidt finally teleports the monster, he is treating New York as the Nazis treated any group they persecuted. New York, with all of its weak citizens as pointed out through the book, becomes the sacrificial lamb for Veidt's plan. Veidt is also a profiteer of his own acts, using the attack to sell his already-planned "Millenium" line, featuring more Aryan imagery. Veidt is Truman, but also Hitler, Stalin and Henry Ford rolled in one. Is he right? Few people think that Hitler, Stalin and Ford were. Palexandridis 17:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please, someone from Japan

Tell the americans who glorify Ozymandias and Truman for dropping the nuclear bomb in Hiroshima and killing half the population of New York to FUCK OFF! 168.243.218.2

BRB Busy being a cowboy and saving the world from Al Qaedadada terrorism. FREEDOM.151.205.100.243 (talk) 04:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to comment on the above statement, but I do notice an error in the comparison to the dropping of the A-bomb. Truman wasn't elected at the time, and so Rorschach was merely holding two men up to very different standards. 69.117.143.23

Well, *I* am going to comment on the first statement: I'm not from Japan, but it's debatable whether Truman dropped the bomb in order to end the war, or to test new war tech, or to impress the Soviets. So the comparison in the article is suspect... It's not clear WHY Truman dropped the bomb at all. Some people outside the US consider him a war criminal. I know I do.201.235.51.167 23:48, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm an american, most of my friends have read Watchmen, and none of us support past or future atomic warfare, but we are less decisive about Veidt for one major reason: Watchmen's central idea is that human concepts of moral absolutism are basically worthless. So anybody glorifying Veidt AND Truman must have missed the point, not only because they are glorifying a character from Watchmen, but also because they have obviously read Watchmen and are still supporting a moral absolute. -Nietzscheanlie

[edit] Category:Heroes who turned evil

I'm not convinced Ozymandias should be in this category, the comic has a more nuanced view of morality in both intent and action, and I don't think he is meant to be seen as an "evil" character per se. Thoughts? JoshuaZ 03:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Someone else has already removed it, but I agree. Comic book villians typically do what they do to "be evil" or for personal gain or vengeance. Ozy certainly did not see himself as evil, but felt that the times called for a vision beyond conventional definitions of morality. Though what he did would be considered evil by most, his goals were for the betterment of all mankind. Canonblack 13:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Many comic book villians have noble intentions or at least reasonable explanations for what they want. Take Marvel's Magneto, for instance. As a former victim of the persecution of a racial minority (a Jew captured by the Nazis), he saw conflict between the human and mutant races to be inevitable and simply wanted his side to win. By his own moral code, he's doing what's right to protect his people against a majority that he believes will never accept the more powerful and less numerous mutants as equals.

While mainstream American comics tend to have a black or white morality about them that lends to villians being evil for the sake of being evil, Watchmen is one of many works that deliberately tweaks the assumptions of the superhero comic genre. The moral ambiguity of the setting does not make Ozymandias any less of a fallen hero, though. He clearly follows the principle that the ends justify the means, and few people would consider this to be a heroic trait. 192.133.193.80 21:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question

So I was reading anotehr finely written wikiarticle about the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and their music video for "Otherside". The inspiration for the visual style of it came from a groundbreaking German Expressionist film from the 1920's, called "The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari". I was in the middle of watching it over at archive.org (http://www.archive.org/stream/DasKabinettdesDoktorCaligariTheCabinetofDrCaligari/The_Cabinet_of_Dr._Caligari_256kb.mp4) and noticed in the opening credits, that the somnambulist, a key character in the film, is played by a man named Conrad Veidt. I didn't notice any mention of this in the article, but I think that there may be something to this.

Is their some deeper significance I am missing? Sharing the same surname isn't notable, unless the characters are markedly similar to the extent that Adrian is probably based on Conrad. Even then we would need to find a source stateing this in the outside world to furfil No Original Research. Jefffire 11:52, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's a bit of a stretch. Conrad may be the most famous real-life Veidt, but he's certainly not the only one and the surname is not terribly uncommon. Other than that Conrad was German-born, emigrated to the US, and championed humanitarian causes, he has little in common with Adrian. Adrian is a wealthy philanthropist who gains incredible intelligence and vision that enables him to change the world (or attempt to do so). Conrad was a straight gentile actor who championed Jewish and Gay causes and took a vocal anti-Nazi stance during WWII. Adrian's parents emigrated to the US when Adrian was very young; Conrad emigrated when he was already a famous and highly-regarded actor in order to try his luck in Hollywood. The Wikipedia article for Veidt states that one of his screen portrayals was the model for Batman's nemesis the Joker, so any supposition about Veidt also being the model for a misguided vigilante seems even more tenuous without perhaps a quote from Moore. And knowing Moore's work, if he'd intended Adrain to be based on Conrad, wouldn't he have simply named him Conrad? It's not like "Conrad Veidt" was a household name in the late 1980s. Canonblack 14:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Illuminatus!

While this is an interesting parallel drawn between Illuminatus and Watchmen, this is most likely due Alan Moore's influence from Wilson and Shea as strikingly themes from Illuminatus tend to pop up in his work repeatedly (numerology and philosophy on government in V for Vendetta; direct citation of RAW's work in the notes to From Hell, etc.) Since there's no mention of trancendental immortality in Watchmen, it would seem more likely that the eye in the pyramid is an homage to Illuminatus, if you could even say that since Wilson and Shea did not create the idea of the secret society, only popularized it (although, yeah the mass murder thing is still there). In any case, where's the Karen Berger comment?

Unfortunately, the comment is as yet unpublished outside of here. I hadn't read the part about DOCUMENTING sources for Wikipedia before I put this in. The exact conversation, as I recall it (it was @ 1987, Animal Man was out, and Chas. Truog was sitting beside me):

Karen (looking at 1st ILL! comic): Alan Moore would really like to see this.

Me: Yes, I noticed from reading Watchmen that he ws an Illuminatus! fan. Interesting how if you know about transcendental illumination how it totally changes the ending of Watchmen.

Karen (smiling, I believe): Yes, isn't it?

This took place at Chicago Comicon, since supplanted by Wizard World Chicago. ----Icarus 23

BTW, thanks for the wording change -- it reads much better. -- I23!

I am sort of surprised that he Illuminati/Freemasonry theme is not explored further in the Ozymandias entry. At the very least it seems plausible that Ozymandias symbolizes the Illuminati/Freemasons. Here are some links coincidental or otherwise between the two.

1. Ozymandias being of German descent. The best known branch of Illuminati is purported to be the Bavarian Illuminati.

2. His fascination with Ramses II and Egyptian history. Freemasons, of which the Illuminati are reported to be an offshoot of, were have said to have helped built the pyramids

3. Ozymandias' costume contains the Illuminati symbol the "All Seeing Eye" within a pyramid.

4. There is a curious use of a period within the word "illumination" on chapter 11, page 8, panel 9. Ozymandias says "I wanted to match his accomplishment, bringing an age of illuminat.ion to a benighted world." Does this indicate that Ozymandias briefly paused while saying "illumination"? Did he almost have a Freudian slip and say Illuminati instead?

5.Ozymandias' plan to unite the world is consistent with conspiracy theories of a New World Order or one-world government.

6. He use of a large number of televisions lets him monitor events from all around the world. In effect he has an "All Seeing Eye."

7. His plan to unite the world took the form of a pyramid. Ozymandias says "No one will know. Those involved are all dead. killed by killers who killed each other, a lethal pyramid." He further says that his servants death "provided a silent capstone." Ch. 12, pg. 10, panel 6.

8. Ozymandias' monster contains a single eye. In an abstract way, it looks like an eye on top of a pyramid.

9. If you superimpose the letter "A" and "V" (Adrian Veidt's initials) on top of each other, you get something resembling the Masonic symbol of the Square and Compass. You can see an image of this on the back of the chair Ozymandias is sitting in Chapter 11, pg 16, panels 1 and 4, and then again on pg 17, panel 7. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Square_compasses.svg)

Strongman1970 19:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

This is all massively original research. JoshuaZ 23:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

There are internet forums for that kind of thing. 121.1.51.190 13:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] =Homage in Watchmen#11 or 12 to an incident from Professor X's backstory

I think there was a scene in of these issues where he (Vedit) was wearing traveler's clothes walking up a hill and an artist was painting a landscape. This reminds me of a scene from X-MEN vol 1 #117, page 6 panel 7.

23:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Enda80 (talk)Enda80

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Ozymandias.PNG

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)