User talk:OzWoden

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Contents 1 Sydney Suburbs - Commercial Areas 2 Sydney Suburbs - Commercial Area 3 February 2008 4 Your recent edits 5 Humour 6 Ingleburn High School 7 Edits to Stolen Generation 8 reverting sexual assault material 9 3rr 10 Macquarie Fields 11 Campbelltown / Eschold Park 12 History

[edit] Sydney Suburbs - Commercial Areas

G'Day OzWoden I've noticed you've started changing the headings in a lot of the Sydney suburb articles, particularly Commercial Area to Central Business District. Can you please reconsider this action?

Almost all the articles for Sydney suburbs use the heading Commercial Area as it is a standard heading. The reason we use Commercial Area rather than CBD is that some suburbs have more than one commercial area. Also, CBD is usually a term that is applied to cities rather than suburbs. It may be appropriate for big suburbs such as Parramatta and Campbelltown but does not make sense when applied to a suburb with a handful of shops near the railway station, as is the case with many suburbs in Sydney. That is why we believe that Commercial Area is a more appropriate heading for this informatiom and it has been applied to almost every article. I hope you agree and keep using the standardised headings. Cheers J Bar (talk) 09:22, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sydney Suburbs - Commercial Area

Thankyou J Bar for your comments.

I might note that I have not changed "the headings in a lot of the Sydney suburb articles, particularly Commercial Area to Central Business District.". I only changed the one heading for one suburb.

I disagree with your assessment regarding the use of the phrase Central Business District - which refers to the main (central) place (district) of commercial activity (business) for any place, be it a town, city, village, etc. If there are two "commercial areas" (as ex Sim City users prefer) then the CBD refers to the main one of the two.

I will however leave it as is. :)

Also, who is the "we" in "...That is why we believe that Commercial Area is a more appropriate..." - is it the royal "we" or the "we" of a particular interest group attempting to dominate the language style on Australian wikipedia pages? ;) (This is rhetorical) —Preceding unsigned comment added by OzWoden (talk • contribs) 05:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

G'Day OzWoden,

I understand CBD can be used for suburbs but it's usually reserved for cities. Can I refer you to the wikipedia article on Central business district: A central business district (CBD) (equivalent to a 'downtown' in American English and 'the City' in Australia & India and in the United Kingdom) is the commercial and often geographic heart of a city.

The 'we' in my message refers to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Sydney. We are not a particular interest group attempting to dominate the language style on Australian wikipedia pages but wikipedia editors who are providing contributions to articles about Sydney. Of course, anyone is free to edit the pages of wikipedia in whatever they like, but we're just trying to improve all the articles in wikipedia. If you have a look at a few different articles, you will see that setting some standards also makes it easy to compare and contrast information across these articles. You might be interested in having a look at some outstanding articles that have been created for Summer Hill, New South Wales, Ashfield, New South Wales, Kogarah, New South Wales and Parramatta, New South Wales. If you have a look at what some editors have alreday done for these suburbs, it might help you expand some of teh info for the suburbs that you're familiar with. Cheers J Bar (talk) 01:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] February 2008

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, adding content without citing a reliable source, as you did to Ingleburn High School, is not consistent with our policy of verifiability. This is especially important when dealing with biographies of living people, but applies to all Wikipedia articles. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you are already familiar with Wikipedia:Citing sources, please take this opportunity to add your reference to the article. Thank you. utcursch | talk 10:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

None of the references provided by you back up statements like "Part of the school's focus on student welfare involves awarding those students who regularly misbehave". Please note that Wikipedia is not a place for publishing original research. While your statements might be factual, they can't be incorporated in Wikipedia articles, unless they are backed up a reliable source (such as a newspaper). This is especially true with statements that are possibly defamatory or libelous.

If you're want to express views that have not been published by newspapers or other reliable sources yet, you may choose to do so using another medium, such as a blog or letter to a newspaper editor. "No original research" is a core policy of Wikipedia.

If you find any "puffed up lies" in the article, please feel free to question them using templates such as {{fact}}. But, please don't add unsourced negative statements to balance such statements. utcursch | talk 11:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Your recent edits

Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. On many keyboards, the tilde is entered by holding the Shift key, and pressing the key with the tilde pictured. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 11:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Humour

Thank you for your contribution, but we are trying to write an encyclopedia here, so please keep your edits factual and neutral. Our readers are looking for serious articles and will not find joke edits amusing. Remember, millions of people read Wikipedia, so we have to take what we do here seriously. If you'd like to experiment with editing, use the Sandbox to get started. Thank you. Michellecrisp (talk) 12:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Please do not vandalize pages, as you did with this edit to Ingleburn High School. If you continue to do so, you will be blocked from editing. Compwhiz II^(Talk)_(Contribs) 01:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I took off the warning. sorry about that. I am going to check the page if that's true if they have been doing that --Antonio Lopez ^(talk) 02:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

OK I got my reason now. First of all you removed the stub template and second you used information about school graffiti.--Antonio Lopez ^(talk) 02:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

this is an example of a stub template. {{Australia-school-stub}}

the graffiti part was removed because it's original research. read Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools for a more appropriete.--Antonio Lopez ^(talk) 02:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

hold on. can I move your messages that you left me to your talk so it can be easier read and be more organized.--Antonio Lopez ^(talk) 02:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

wait regard that last message. I think it will be safe to remove that warning the previous user made because he put a lv-3 and your edit were good faith, again I apologize-`Antonio Lopez ^(talk) 03:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

wait. I am not the right person to remove the warnings. Let just wait until they respond.--Antonio Lopez ^(talk) 03:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Let's keep it in one page, so it could be more organized and so the other users can reply in one page. Don't worry I will be watching this page, so you can respond here.--Antonio Lopez ^(talk) 03:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I take it I can add back my edits apart from making sure I don’t get rid of the stub and not including the graffiti info?OzWoden (talk) 03:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

sure do what you have to do.--Antonio Lopez ^(talk) 03:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ingleburn High School

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Ingleburn High School. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. CIreland (talk) 11:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edits to Stolen Generation

Why did you replace text in the article Stolen Generation with "###############?" I don't understand your intention. For creating test edits, please use the sandbox. --MatthewLiberal (talk) 23:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear it was just a computer error -- I had no intent of patronization; rather, I find that the sandbox comes in handy when trying to understand formatting problems. --MatthewLiberal (talk) 00:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for ceasing your pointless crusade regarding the validity of the word 'stolen' which is a far more broader debate than wikipedia. Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) and this, metaphorically speaking you were beating a dead horse. Timeshift (talk) 23:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] reverting sexual assault material

Please note the Reverting page of the Editor Handbook. It includes the following guidelines :

• Do not simply revert changes that are made as part of a dispute
• Do not revert good faith edits

WP:EW states: Edit warring is an unproductive behavior characterized by repeated, combative reversion of others' edits.

Rather than reverting, it would be more helpful to change the text so that it is, in your view, more accurate. Sexual abuse was mentioned in the report and your actions in deleting this information seem intent on denying this. Wm (talk) 09:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 3rr

In all fairness you hit the 3RR rule just as Al-Andalus did. It wouldn't be right for me to report him without also reporting you. Please have a look at WP:3RR and report yourself, saving me the trouble. Michael ^talk 06:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll report in half an hour if you do not. Apologies, in all honesty, but I've been through the 3RR crap as well and everyone needs to play by the rules. Michael ^talk 06:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

What you reverted was not libellious, nor was it unsourced or poorly sourced. Most people adding biased commentary to articles back it up on the basis that it is "fact" or "sourced" but sources do not determine something's relevance and fact is quite different from opinion; fact being objective, opinion being subjective. If you look at my own block record I was blocked for 3RR once. It sucks. I was angry. And since I both want to play by the rules and avoid having to type up the little 3RR form, I'm requesting you, in good spirit, do it yourself. Reverting back won't fix the issue, reporting yourself allows you to be back in the game after 24 hours. Michael ^talk 06:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Macquarie Fields

Okay, these anti-aboriginal edits are starting to get annoying. I don't have a problem with you removing blatantly biased or incorrect material or correcting poor writing. That makes articles better. But deleting factually correct material without attempting to make worthwhile additions or corrections only makes it worse. If you want to write a good Macquarie Fields article, do it. I won't mind if it makes no reference to the original inhabitants of the area if it's substantially better than the current job. For example:

• The opening paragraph of the history section says James Meehan named it Macquarie Fields while a later paragraph states it was Jason Snowden. Don't you find that incongruous?
• The transport section, which you did some editing on, could be better written and had no references until I added one for the bus routes. Surely if you were concerned about all the aboriginal facts, you would want that properly referenced too.
• The schools section just lists a few schools as bullet points with no reference. A better schools section would give some idea of when the schools were established, whether they're public or private etc.
• The Sport & Recreation section offers a vague and grammatically awkward "There is also a number of sporting fields in the town." Again there are no references.
• There is no description of the commercial area.

Now, getting back to your points about the aboriginal history, you're right that reference doesn't mention Macquarie Fields. I have found no good references for the aboriginal history of the greater Campbelltown area but I have included a reference from Liverpool Council stating that the Georges River was considered the boundary between the Darug and Tharawal which then means Macquarie Fields is in Darug land. I don't consider that original research. The other reference describes the huts the Darug built, the tools they used, etc. which were the facts you previously questioned in that section. The references together support what is written.

I have reverted your deletion and if you continue making destructive rather constructive edits, I will just revert them without attempting to accommodate your views. I would rather accommodate you but you're not helping your cause by being so narrow minded on this issue. Crico (talk) 11:08, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Campbelltown / Eschold Park

Please refrain from making poorly thought out accusations of edit warring.
Another user continually vandalises the Campbelltown, Eschol Park and other Sydney suburb pages with information that does not belong in the suburb articles. My reversion of such vandalism does not constitute edit warring. Good day. OzWoden (talk) 00:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The comment was made in regard to the number of reverts from the same editors, on a number of suburb articles regarding History, in particular Aboriginal history. If you have a problem with the facts in the articles, then I suggest you make your point on the discussion pages, rather than just delete them. If others editors agree that the information does not belong in that particular article, then the information can be removed. If you have a problem with references not being provided on a particular paragraph, then I suggest that you tag it, so that references can be provided. Cheers. J Bar (talk) 01:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand me. I am mainly interested in improving the pages related to the suburbs of Sydney and in particular western Sydney. Much of what you have been deleting and I reinstating wasn't written by me in the first place. I merely searched out references for what you had tagged as unreferenced. When all's said and done, I don't mind if a suburb article has a one sentence description of the area's original inhabitants, a one paragraph description or no mention at all. If you look at the History section I added to Rosemeadow, New South Wales recently, there is no reference to the indigenous people. When I rewrote the History section of Leumeah, New South Wales, I though the indigenous history was relevant because of the origin of the name and the relationship between John Warby and the Tharawal. I understand you have a point of view that this isn't relevant to the suburb. I disagree but, if you were prepared to be sensible, I wouldn't object to a private agreement between us where I wouldn't revert your deletions on certain suburbs if you agreed not to delete material from others. In all honesty, the material in Ambarvale, Blair Athol, Blairmount, Claymore, Eschol Park and Kentlyn doesn't really appear to be specific to the suburbs in question but the material in Bow Bowing, Ingleburn, Leumeah and Minto Heights appears relevant to me. I am intending to rewrite Menangle Park in the near future and I think its indigenous history is relevant because of the name. I thought my revised version of Campbelltown was fine before someone else added the Aboriginal History section back in. Which brings me to my final point. Even if you were amenable to this as a solution, there are plenty of other people with differing points of view out there in wikiland. It's up to you. Crico (talk) 05:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I have a problem with sentences that are NOT facts, but since factuality is an irrelevant concept in Wikipedia my point of issue is firstly with the lack of references. As Jimmy Wales suggests, I am being bold by not simply tagging every bloody thing, but instead by weeding out the rubbish. Secondly I have a problem with references which do not support the statements for which the references refer to. And lastly I have a problem with information (referenced correctly or otherwise) which does not relate to the article at hand. If I were writing an article about you (which I wouldn't since you are living and biographical content of living persons is discouraged) I wouldn't include a paragraph or two about the culture of the people who used to live at the house where you grew up. Why? - because it is not relevant.

Also I have tagged many a sentence that required referencing - it gets a tad boring when they are not tended to properly. And if you bothered to look at a number of the discussion pages (eg. Macquarie Fields) you would notice that I did attempt to explain the irrelevance of the information a certain editor was providing. It was fruitless since their response was to visit almost every suburb article for the Western Sydney area and begin defacing those articles as well. OzWoden (talk) 12:38, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but I don't think your example makes sense. of course a biographical article on me will obviously not be related to who lived in my house. However, these are articles on places and the history of a place don't just begin 200 years ago with European Settlement. Sure it wasn't a suburb before that time, but the place still existed and had a history. An article on Italy will probably mention the history of the Roman Empire in the same location and not just the history of the place since it was named Italy in more recent times. The same goes for places in Australia. Just because the suburbs have only existed in the last 100-200 years, do we ignore any history of the place before these last two centuries? No. You can't just deny any Aboriginal History for these places. The information needs to be accurate, I agree, so if you have a problem with the accuracy then discuss it on the talk page. You keep deleting the Aboriginal History from all these articles and others keep restoring it. That's why I said you have been edit warring. If you have a probem with the information being restored by other editors then I suggest you seek mediation from the administrators. Cheers.J Bar (talk) 13:17, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Whether the indigenous history of an area is relevant to a suburb article is a matter of opinion not fact. Your opinion is that it is irrelevant but most others appear to believe it is relevant. To then describe that information being included in an article as "vandalism" is ridiculous and betrays your true motives. I have tried to accommodate your views but without reciprocal accommodation I can't see any point continuing the discussion. Crico (talk) 00:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History

I do not wish to "deny" any particular view of history - I wish to categorise information correctly. Perhaps you ought to begin an article on the pre-settlement history of the Sydney region or similar. By the way, by definition, history begins with written records - I will let you dwell on that one. Cheers :) OzWoden (talk) 14:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

That might be your definition of history but it is not the only one. According to the Macquarie dictionary, History is the branch of knowledge dealing with past events. Yes, there are other definitions also given that mention written records but History is not limited to those. You say that you don't want to "deny" any particular view of history but your actions in regards to these articles, say otherwise. Anyway, why is it is so important to you, to remove any information in these articles about pre-European settlement? Cheers. J Bar (talk) 22:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

And according to anyone with a few active neurons, history cannot be recognised as such without (proper) evidence - generally primary or secondary sources. Not emotion-fuelled chinese-whisper style conjecture that is not written down for decades or even centuries. If it is not properly referenced then it is little more than superstitious nonsense - whether popularly believed or not. But that is all beside the point...

To answer your question, as I have mentioned in probably all of my messages on this matter, the information in question should not be in the suburb articles because pre-European settlement is irrelevent to an article about something which did not exist until post-European settlement. If pre-European settlement is so important to the article for you, why do you not include a yarn about the formation of the mountains and a little bit about plate tectonic theory and perhaps the different flora and fauna and how they evolved? (this question is rhetorical - the obvious answer is again because it is irrelevant to the suburb articles) OzWoden (talk) 09:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, it is not irrelevant at all. As part of the wikiproject on Sydney Suburbs, we have guidelines and headings that help people provide information on these subjects. They follow a standard wikipedia format and we try to follow those as closely as possible. These are: History, Politics, Demographics etc... History is divided into a number of sub-headings Aboriginal Culture and European Settlement being the two most important. All editors are asked to follow the guides but they are not completely strict, so alternative headings can also be included. And as matter of fact, Geography is another heading that can be used and the information you suggest can be included in that section if it significant. The wikiproject is a serious collaboration; it's not just me making this up. Cheers. J Bar (talk) 10:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC).