Talk:Oyster card

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Oyster card was the selected article of the London Transport Portal between 20th December 2006 - 10th January 2007.
To-do list for Oyster card: edit · history · watch · refresh
  • Issues (technical setbacks and criticisms) needs to be checked for NPOV and verifiability.
  • Has it actually been used by the police yet to trace movements? (Security services unlikely to confirm or deny.) What is the official policy regarding this?
  • The PAYG system changed in November so £4 (£5 on specific NR journeys) is debited at start of journey and the difference is credited back at the end. This applies a maximum cash fare to those who do not touch out.
  • Need to monitor the situation with National Rail companies' policy on accepting Oyster PAYG - this is a situation in development and can change quite quickly. Only an outline agreement is in place right now, but when a major agreement is finalised between TfL and train companies, the section on National Rail can be tidied up and simplified.
  • Bus passes bought at tube stations are only on Oyster soon (there is a poster). Need to find details for citation.
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[edit] Securiy Issues

Mifare classis has been hacked and it is possible to exploit the system.. not easy but we will get there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIFARE However back office check can still be performed...

can be bothered to update the page so somebody else do it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.15.17.223 (talk) 23:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photos and pics

Any chance of a pic of the Oyster reader and perhaps an Oyster card actually being used on a reader? Ian Tindale 14:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charges when user forgets to swipe out

The article says that the user gets charged a £4 or £5 fare if they forget to swipe out. It also says that the maximum charge for a day is calculated so as not to exceed the price of a Travelcard. What I'm wondering, and the article should make clear, is if the second point applies when the user forgets to swipe out? Let's say they do that twice in a day, the penalty fare *2 is likely to be more than the price of a Travelcard. How much do they pay? --kingboyk 13:47, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

As far as I understand it, the penalty fare applies to each "unresolved journey" but there may be a cap on that. It's independent of the calculation for travelcards, which is based only on "legitimate" fares. I'm not going to change the article though, because I'd like to see the info referenced from the official terms & conditions, which I don't have to hand. – Kieran T (talk) 18:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
On the 27th December 2007 my wife managed to get through a barrier without the card registering properly. The ticket office said that "unresolved journey" fares (then £4) are not included in the cap. They refunded £2.50 but that still leaves my wife £1.50 out of pocket if she hits the cap that day. Since the word of one man in a ticket office is hardly official policy I'm not going to change the article either. 22:21 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I got a "seek asistance message" when I checked in and an assistant opened the gate for me. When I arrived at the destinantion and checked out, I got charged £4. When I noticed this, nobody was willing to help. Oyster is fraud to the customer! There must be thousands of people every day who make the same experience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.55.18 (talk) 23:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Architecture

Would it be possible for anyone who knows about the subject to write about the technical architecture? What intelligence is there in a station gate line? What further machinery acts as a comms concentrator in a station? What communications network is used? Where is the central database? What software is it made out of? Who built it? How long did it take? How do non-networked validators, eg on buses, work? The article as it stands describes the user experience well, but is very thin on the guts of this system. In my opinion it's very reliable and I'd be interested to learn how that was achieved. David Colver 20:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

http://rfid.idtechex.com/knowledgebase/en/casestudy.asp?freefromsection=122 has a useful technical overview. Perhaps someone could abstract the interesting data into this wikipedia page?
Kim SJ 11:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maximum Cash Fares

Regarding maximum cash fares, they still apply even if you have reached the daily price cap. You must still touch in and out at Oyster readers. I have edited the article to reflect this - SteveMcSherry 22:58, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A Bug in the System?

There is no notice about a reported bug in the Oyster system If I touch in at Barons Court and then in 5 minutes decide to leave and touch out - nothing happens, I am not charged If I touch in at Barons Court, wait for a train which is massively delayed and leave after 18 minutes - the system will take it I have made 2 incomplete journeys and deduct 2 maximum cash fares. This was revealed this week. Stephen Howe 01:49, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

If you find a reliable source detailing this, feel free to add it to the article. It should be easy - I remember reading about that bug myself. :) DanielC/T+ 10:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
This page describes a related bug, namely that Oyster allows a maximum time of two hours between touch-in and touch-out, even though there are valid journeys within the system which take longer than this (Upminster to Heathrow was the example given). An attempt to touch-out after two hours will be counted as a new touch-in, incurring two maximum fares (one for each touch-in). 217.155.20.163 17:22, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
This is not a bug but part of system design. Oyster journeys are required to be completed within two hours of start; otherwise they count as two separate journeys. There are no journeys on the system that should routinely take more than two hours although there are some possibilities for exceeding this time when there are train delays or disruptions. The system charges the minimum fare from the station for entering and exiting from the same station within a 30 minute period. After that it is counted as two incomplete journeys and two max fares apply. All of this is done to prevent opportunities for fraud. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shashi verma (talk • contribs) 09:46, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Hmm... I put Uxbridge to Heathrow Airport Central into the TFL journey planner, and the time is 1h58 (I had to disable travel by rail, since I didn't want to pay for the Heathrow Express). With luggage that could easily take an additional two minutes. I've been charged for entering and leaving a station (after the last train had departed). ƕ (talk) 19:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] More tweaks...

I've done some general cleaning up and have changed the positioning of the photos so they are all together. SteveMcSherry 23:06, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Travelcard zoning

Would a zone 2-4 travelcard on oyster work for a journey from (say) Hounslow East to Finchley Road? This would require a change at Rayners Lane (zone 5) or travel through zone 1, but no ticket barriers to pass through. Also what about travelling between zones 2 and 4 on national rail, but where the train passes through zone 5? (e.g. Hounslow Loop Line Richmond to Isleworth? If anyone knows I would like to add this information to the article.129.31.72.52 06:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

You pay for the zones you pass through, not those you start and end in. When you go via Rayners Lane or either of the possible Zone 1 changes the user would be assumed by the system to have traveled outside the zones covered on the card and would be liable for an extension. This is no differenet on Oyster to what you have happened withe "paper" Travelcard. Of course, there is a theoretically possible route between HE and FR that stays within Zones 2-4, but it would take "forever," and anyone taking it would doubtless have trouble convincing the staff at FR when they get there that that is what they did! Richmond to Isleworth direct would also be liable for an extension, although again there are feasible alternative routethat do not. Nick Cooper 09:30, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, well it seems like an awful lot of logic to code on the ticket barriers. The "forever" route would require changing at West Hampstead from rail to tube I think, but any other travelcard besides the 2-4 one would work. Might try it and be prepared to pay an extension fare. 129.31.72.52 15:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
The "forever" route would actually work without a problem because you'd have to touch in at West Hampstead. Paper travelcards are always checked for validity at the entry/exit point, not the "logical route".
Incidentally you don't actually pay for the extra zones you "pass through" but rather the "natural route" - there are some journeys where you can go into one further zone for easier interchange without being charged for it (e.g. using Mile End rather than Straford/West Ham for switching between the eastern ends of the Central and District lines). Indeed there may be routes where someone staying entirely within the validity of their card would still be charged extensions - London Overground is going to be interesting as not everyone is in a hurry. Timrollpickering 16:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, obviously when I said "pass through" I meant in the sense of what the system assumes the customer to have passed through. Nick Cooper 22:10, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that one of the reasons for introducing the Oyster is to reduce cheating from paper travelcards where people didn't pay for "passing through"? e.g. going from W to E london but only getting an outer zone one? Could just damage the magnetic strip. and then there are train stations without ticket barriers so if you knew your routes well enough you could "save" some money. Ohwell32 19:42, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Touching at Bank during interchange

In the article it says "When using the DLR at Bank using PAYG you must touch the reader by the DLR platform even if you are changing to/from the London Underground."

However the following suggests that this is not correct:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.transport.london/tree/browse_frm/thread/976d45b2501da5f5/9eee351c6433c4e8?hl=en&rnum=11&q=touch+oyster+bank+underground&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fuk.transport.london%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2F976d45b2501da5f5%2Fbfeb7392e051d332%3Fhl%3Den%26lnk%3Dst%26q%3Dtouch%2Boyster%2Bbank%2Bunderground%26#doc_cbaa5400aea958f6

However this is contradicted by a letter in last night's thelondonpaper:

http://www.thelondonpaper.com/cs/Satellite/london/talk?packedargs=cat...

"No need to touch out twice with Oyster

"In response to Melvyn Windebank's letter (24 November), the new rules for Oyster cards have been implemented to benefit honest passengers and cut down on fraud. There is no need for a passenger to touch in and out when transferring from DLR to Tube at Bank station.

"The Oyster card can calculate the correct fare when you touch out with the card after completing your Tube journey. The only circumstance where a customer needs to touch in at the validators at Bank when transferring from the Tube to DLR is when the customer has a Zone 1-2 travelcard but intends to terminate his journey outside Zone 2.

"Shashi Verma, Transport for london"

(The link in the usenet posting doesn't give this letter any more - I guess the letter must have been 1st Dec 2006 but I don't know how/whether this can be accessed via www.thelondonpaper.com)

199.172.169.32 16:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The official TfL site says: "If you are joining DLR at Bank and are planning to use pay as you go to travel outside of your Travelcard zones, you must touch your Oyster card on the reader on the DLR concourse to ensure you have a valid ticket to travel on DLR." Geoking66talk 08:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Officially, when changing between the DLR and tube at Bank, you are supposed to touch your Oyster Card on the reader on the DLR platform, however, I have made that interchange without touching on the DLR platform reader and still been charged the correct fare. Jenks1987 (talk) 00:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Example journey from Cambridge Heath to Liverpool Street

According to the article, a person travelling from Cambridge Heath to Liverpool Street using a zone 2-3 travelcard and Oyster PAYG would be charged a penalty fare, even though Oyster PAYG was technically valid. This, I believe, is incorrect. This route is currently not available on Oyster PAYG- a person could only use an Oyster card on this route if they held a travelcard covering zones 1 and 2. The travelcard must cover the entire journey. Jenks1987 (talk) 00:48, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I've changed the example to Forest Gate. Stratford to Liverpool Street on "one" is covered by PAYG so it's a legitimate extension. (I did consider the larger Ilford but there are readers there, albeit only for checking travelcard validity, and I think the example would get over complicated.) Timrollpickering (talk) 01:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the new example is a legitimate use of Oyster PAYG. For a user to be charged the correct fare, they would have to get off at Stratford, touch in with their Oyster card and then continue their journey to Liverpool. I have edited the article to reflect this. Jenks1987 (talk) 11:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Beyond London - Incomprehensible text

The article reads:

... Oyster was developed before the Integrated Transport Smartcard Organisation (ITSO) smartcard specification was agreed, and does not meet this specification. Consequently many of the modern computer-based, rail ticketing systems are able to issue Oyster-compatible tickets as of 2006; some older ticket-issuing equipment at stations served by London Underground but managed by Network Rail or their operators has been converted for use with Oyster Card. ...

Can somebody explain why the fact that many modern rail ticketing systems can issue Oyster compatable tickets is a consequence of Oyster *not* being ITSO compliant. This seems totally counter-intuitive.

The article also reads:

... many of the modern computer-based, rail ticketing systems are able to issue Oyster-compatible tickets as of 2006; some older ticket-issuing equipment at stations served by London Underground but managed by Network Rail or their operators has been converted for use with Oyster Card. However, a derivation of Cubic FasTIS ticket machines (derived from the LUL Ticket Office Machine developed for the TfL Prestige Project) called FasTIS+ can retail TfL Oyster products and the Shere ticket machines installed at London Overground stations can issue Oyster products in addition to National Rail tickets for same, next day or next working day travel.

I don't even begin to understand that 'However'. It seems to be akin to 'Apples are red. However New Zealand apples are red'.

I'm beginning to wonder if this paragraph has been vandalised. Certainly both issues would be resolved if you put a not in the middle sentence to make it:

Consequently many of the modern computer-based, rail ticketing systems are not able to issue Oyster-compatible tickets as of 2006; ...

Thoughts?. -- Chris j wood (talk) 18:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I've taken the plunge and decided the text in question is too incromprehensible to meet WP's quality standards. I've therefore pulled it from the article for now. Please free to reinstate a cleaned up version, if you can. -- Chris j wood (talk) 10:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oyster is based on Java technology

Is it worth mentioning under the techie bit that Oyster is based on JavaCard and Java technologies throughout?? James Gosling from Sun just mentioned it in a keynote at the Mobile and Embedded Developer Days Conference... I certainly didn't know it before, so if anyone knows of any references to this, that would be interesting to throw in perhaps. 17:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Attacked other systems" section

How revelant is this, given that it explicityly states that the sytsem technology mentioned is not used in Oyster? Nick Cooper (talk) 12:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - I have removed it. It has absolutely nothing to do with Oyster (it even said so directly in the text itself that it was not applicable). Nzseries1 (talk) 16:51, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Added photo showing the chip inside the card

If anyone can figure out a better way of revealing the chip and the aerial, please message me... Spent ages chiselling away at the thing! Maybe sticking it the oven at a low heat?! --Tomhannen (talk) 23:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Far too many photos

There are two pictures of underground trains, both with a caption explaining that Oyster is valid on all underground trains. There also seems to be a whole column of pictures of trains, buses, etc, with each caption explaining that the Oyster is valid on them. This is obviously decoration rather than illustration - a picture of a bendy bus from the outside does not illustrate the fact that there are Oyster readers inside. What's more, we have a picture of the three types of Oyster card, and then a separate picture which again includes each type of card, but also the respective holders for each one. The latter would be sufficient. --194.203.201.92 (talk) 11:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Paper Travelcard costs more than Oyster Travelcard?

The article mentions that there is essentially no difference between a paper travelcard and of one loaded onto an oyster. Aren't day travelcards cheaper with an oyster? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.245.224 (talk) 03:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Day travelcards aren't available on Oyster; however, the daily price capping scheme ensures that Oyster PAYG users pay no more than 50p less than the equivalent day travelcard they would require to cover all the journeys they make in one day. Jenks1987 (talk) 08:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Big Brother

With RFID technology, Oyster card seems deadly. It means anybody can locate the card holder anytime. No need for awful manhunt, panic headlines on telly, dawn raids,... Yes, TfL claims a limited range. But that is nonsensical. A singular radiowave's length is vast enough to cross oceans, continents and tiny planets. It also means you could be inventoried without your knowledge. Data Privacy Act anyone? It also means real-time census!

It also means reduced physical money supply, reduced minting costs, reduced inflation, reduced base interest rate, reduced counterfeit currency and increased sterling exchange vis-a-vis gold/crude, increased sovereign debt rating,...

If extended, as promised, to air travel and car parks, Oyster has potential to replace the ID Card scheme of the Home Office. If extended to branded high street retailers, HMRC, supermarkets, restaurants and take-aways, Oyster would eliminate credit cards and even vouchers/certificates altogether. But by then MasterCard and Visa would have begun lobby for competing into Oyster monopoly. Already BarclayCard has issued a contactless card compatible with Oyster. It also means the end of chip and pin terminals. Anwar (talk) 20:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)