Talk:Owain Glyndŵr

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[edit] Anglicising names

(Note: Should we be Anglicising this name?)

Yes. We're anglicising names with some consistency (though nomenclature is still a vexing issue - see my note on Salian). Heinrich > Henry, Carolus Magnus > Charlemagne. There should be a clear statement of what other versions are, but then leave the title of the page something that will be found by English-typers searching. Now there is a subsidiary question here - do you wish to have the entry under Owen Glendower and all references inside the entry to 'Glyndwr'? --MichaelTinkler

I guess I'd never seen him referred to in an anglicised version before, so I hadn't realised there *was* such a version, hence my question. But what you say makes sense, and having read your own page I'll go along with whatever you say! Verloren

I realise I'm coming late to this discussion, but as someone who before the last local government reorganisation in Wales lived in the area of "Cyngor Dosbarth Glyndwr District Council", I have to say that this anglicisation strikes me as extremely quaint! Nobody locally uses "Glendower" when using either language, and I'd argue that Glyndwr is now the man's accepted name in English too (I cite as evidence the British 5.5p postage stamp of "Medieval Warriors" issued on 10th July 1974 which clearly identifies him as "Owain Glyndw^r c.1354/1416"). The "Glyn Dwr" usage which appears on other pages also strikes me as odd... -- Arwel 23:01 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)

I agree with Arwel. I'm English, and the only bit of Anglicising most English people now do with OG's name is to omit the circumflex over the W. This is consistent with the way some other Welsh names are now treated in England - for example, Caernarfon is now greatly preferred to the old-fashioned "Carnarvon" (as the Wikipedia page itself states), and Conwy is much more common than "Conway". Loganberry 11:50, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree with Arwel also, fwiw. — OwenBlacker 10:36, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

I also agree with Arwel, Glyndŵr is a symbol of Welsh nationlism and independence so should not be angliscised, people I know who speak English use Glyndwr, I think the current situation with a search for Owen Glendower redirects here is fine.

It doesn't matter if the nationalists / independence movement claim him as god incarnate, what matters is prevalence of use and yes "Owain Glyndwr" does appear to be used in English language, probably due to the resurgence of Welsh styled names. Pbhj (talk) 23:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Help identifying "he" and "Henry"

In the section "The Revolt, 1400-15", starting with the sentence "His young protégé..." I can't tell for certain who 'his', 'he', and 'Henry' refers to. I think we need to use Hotspur, Monmouth, and Henry IV here to keep it clear, but I'm not the one to do this correctly. Any help?

[edit] Need clarification in "The Revolt, 1400-15"

Paragraph beginning w/ "1403 marks the year..." states that "Village after village rose to meet him." "Meet" needs to be replaced by either "oppose" or "join", but I don't know which. Any help?

I'd read that as "join". -- Arwel 12:56, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I did a little checking with other sources, and, based on your comment, and the apparent popularity of Glyndwr's campaign, I modified the text to read "rose to join him". I think this accurately represents the event. Thanks. -- Sergio 17:11, 25 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Also, in paragraph beginning w/"1405 was the...", a sentence begins "Local tradition holds that...". Unfortunately, it is unclear when the text ceases to report "local tradition" and begins to report documented historical facts, casting doubt on all of the info following, at least to the end of the paragraph. Any help?

I'd read that as just to the end of that sentence, that they "invaded England". The face-off at Worcester is recorded fact, not tradition. -- Arwel 12:56, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Based on other readings, it does appear that it's their route across Wales that is only known from tradition, so I have moved and modified the "according to tradition" phrase to better indicate what it refers to. Thanks. -- Sergio 17:15, 25 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Just a small point - it says that Henry of Monmouth was 16 at the time of the Battle of Shrewsbury. But in article Henry V of England it says he was born in September of 1387. If he met Glendower in July of 1403 (as clarified here, wouldn't that mean he was 15 when the battle took place, not 16 as this article states. Could I please have some clarification? Mageslayer99 19:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] further interesting points about "The Revolt"

Owain’s men quickly spread through north-east Wales.

The few men following him spread out? The support for his naming as Twywsog Cyrmy [sic] spread presumably, but how by letter, by pronouncements at settlements, by consultation with landowners? Who were the "Welsh guerrilas" in the second paragraph? Owain's men? How did they attack a presumably large and well rehearsed army? Wasn't Henry's army returning from Scotland?

Although Hotspur arrived from Denbigh with 120 men-at-arms and 300 archers, he knew it would take a great deal more to get inside so formidable a fortress and, forced to negotiate, he finally gave the Tudors their Pardon.

Presumably Hotspur as the King's fixer would also know that they could just post watches of archers and wait it out for a couple of months. In this ancestry.com article on battles of Glyn Dwr (sic) it claims instead that 9 of those in the castle were given up to buy pardons for the others. A BBC page on teh Battle of Shrewsbury claims that Hotspur "had to besiege it for a month in order to get it back". Which rather sounds like a win, not a forced negotiation. As for Pumlimon "Owain and a few of his followers crossed Pumlumon mountain to the river Hyddgen. An army of men from Ceredigion, both Welsh and English, came to fight against him. The Welshmen decided to change sides and join Owain, and they drove the English soldiers away." differs markedly. Without any explanation as to why settlers, presumably weakly armed (possibly with tools) would attack an armed force I'm inclined towards this alternate explanation that a force from Ceredigion partly turned-coat and routed the English troops.

The army was nearly washed away in floods and Henry, sleeping in his armour, almost died when his tent was blown down. Wet, starving, and dejected, they returned to Hereford Castle with nothing to claim for their efforts.

Seriously poorly managed to be washed away unless a particular fording was necessary? More details needed. As for sleeping in armour, doubtful; dying from a collapsed tent, laughable. Moreover you'd have thought on their 2 day drinking binge they might have found some munchies, no? The Cistercian monastery would have been well provisioned with not only ale but also food.

These laws sent a message to any of those who were wavering that the English viewed all the Welsh with equal suspicion.

Strange the message I get is that the King wanted to defeat a welsh landowners uprising and prevent the powerful landowners in Wales from buying land in England or acquiring power in England through marriage; naturally protecting himself from potential future challenges to the Crown. Wrt Reginald Grey Grey had clearly tried to demean his neighbouring landowner Glyndwr in the eyes of the King (and succeeded) so Glyndwr had it in for him, the ransom of £10,000 marks destroyed the family and their interests were eventually sold to the crown (centuries later). It was Henry's support for de Grey and the high taxation and the desire for greater control over his historic family lands that led Glyndwr to attack the Crown. I'm sure not all of those dwelling in the Welsh lands supported him and many will have rued the day they met him by the end no doubt. Pbhj (talk) 01:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Last Welsh Prince of Wales

was the last Welshman to hold the title Prince of Wales

Is this strictly speaking true? Henry VIII had been a Prince of Wales, and his father Henry VII (Henry Tudor) was most definatelly Welsh, which would surely make Henry VIII Welsh. Any ideas out there?--Alun 07:59, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I would argue that Henry VIII's father being Welsh makes Henry VIII of Welsh descent, but not necessarily Welsh. However, I have a problem with the statement anyway, since 'holding the title' would suggest that it was conferred upon him by some accepted means. As I understand it, Glyndwr assumed the title, and most historians do not list him among the historical "Princes of Wales". Thus, unless Henry VIII is actually Welsh and not just of Welsh descent, I would suggest that the phrase read "was the last Welshman to adopt the title Prince of Wales"--Sergio1 02:28, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

How do you differentiate between being Welsh and of Welsh descent. For example I'm Welsh, but my children were born here in Finland (to a Finnish mother), they are still British citizens, and I consider them to be Welsh-British as well as Finnish. When I have grandchildren, if they are born in Finland I will consider them of Welsh descent, they wouldn't qualify for British citizenship. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that in my oppinion a person shares the nationality of their parents, but not necessarily of their grandparents. As we are talking about nationality and not citizenship it seems to be a matter of oppinion anyway. Look at the large numbers of Irish-Americans who claim to be Irish, but are third or fourth generation American. There is a lot of Welsh nationalistic feeling about Glyndwr, which romanticises his status as the last Welsh Prince of Wales.

I understand what you are saying about Glyndwr. But it is a question of point of view, to the Welsh, it is the foreign Anglo-Norman monarch who did not have the legal right to confer the title of Prince of Wales on anyone in the first place. Glyndwr had the right to adopt the title, being descended from the royal houses of both Gwynedd and Deheubarth (if my memory servs me correctly).Alun 05:31, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Why does it say on Madoc ap Llywelyn that Madoc ap Llywelyn was the last recognized prince of Wales? What does recognized mean.. doesn't it depend on who is doing the recognizing? Zargulon 13:38, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Good point.Alun 17:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it depends on who is doing the recognition. The title "Prince of Wales" was GRANTED by Henry III of England on Dafydd ap Llywelyn (and his heirs and successors) who used it after 1240. Prior to this the north Welsh rulers had used titles like "Prince of Gwynedd and Lord of Aberffraw" since the times of Owain Gwynedd (he who stopped using the title "King of Gwynedd") in 1170. Glyndwr was proclaimed "prince of wales" at an assembly of the magnates following a popular uprising, and if power comes from the people, then he was their prince of Wales indeed. However, in terms of international law, Wales was at this point - and had been since Norman times - seen as subject to the King of England. It's rulers had historically recognised the King of England as their overlord and as such he could strip them of their lands and title. At the same time as Glyndwr was crowned Prince Owain IV of Wales another person was using the same title - Prince Harry, The Prince of Wales - the son of King Henry IV.

The title "Prince of Gwynedd" was one inherited by the head of the dynasty of Aberffraw. I think it is reasonable to make the distinction between this, which was inherited and predated any fealty to England, and the title "Prince of Wales" which was conferred by an English king on a Welsh leader. In 1294 Prince Madoc ap LLywelyn was the most senior member of the Aberffraw dynasty (House of Cunedda) not incarcerated and was proclaimed Tywysog by the folk of Gwynedd. It starts becoming confused because the definition of prince differs from English and Welsh. In Welsh, I believe, it literally means "leader", while in England it has a definition and status specifically in relation to a king. So a prince can be a prince in two different ways, depending on what side you are supporting. James Frankcom

[edit] Arms

The article states "Owain’s personal standard — the quartered arms of Powys and Deheubarth rampant — began to be seen all over Wales". This is often stated, but I think the arms are actually those of Gwynedd and therefore of Llywelyn the Great and Llywelyn the Last, and that Owain adopted them to support his claim to be the successor to Llywelyn the Last. Glanmor Williams (Recovery, reorientation and reformation: Wales c1415-1642 supports this (p.4). Rhion 13:39, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

There has been a lot of discussion about this on another discussion page. But basically, there are two different but quite similar looking banners and it has caused some confusion in the past.

  • Llywelyn's Arms

The banner of arms of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd (which appear to have been the arms of the Aberffraw dynasty since Prince Iorwerth, father of Llywelyn the Great) are four lions "pasant" and "guardant" quartered on red and gold. In layman's terms these are lions walking with one front paw raised in defence. These are the arms currently used by the English "Prince of Wales" and are the same as those used by Llywelyn ap Gruffudd between 1246 - 1282.

  • Glyndwr's Arms

The banner of arms of Owain ap Gruffudd (known as Glyndwr) - head of the House of Powys Fadog through his father, and inherited Deheubarth through his mother - would be the arms of Powys and Deheubarth quartered. The arms of Powys are a red lion "rampant" on a gold field, and the arms of Deheubarth are the reverse. By coincidence this flag appears very similar to the banner of arms of Llywelyn except that the lions on Glyndwr's banner are rampant (rearing up on two legs) and on Llywelyn's are pasant & guardant. It seems that the arms have evolved entirely seperately and are unique, but by coincidence appear very similar - hence the confusion. Are there any reliable and contemporary descriptions of the arms used by Owain Glyndwr? James Frankcom

[edit] possibly add a owain in pop. culture/fiction

A character in Terry Brooks' Word and Void series is named and modeled after Owain Glyndwr. The Indian O'olish Amenah, that runs into both main charcters of the series multiple times, is in service as honorable as the first Owain. Dunno if that's worth mentioning, but add it if you want. -Chewbacca 10:35, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Beheaded

According to this article Arundel was beheaded in 1388. According to the article Richard FitzAlan, 11th Earl of Arundel he was arrested in 1397. Which is true?87.90.203.65 08:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hardship after the revolt

I am wondering if the documented hardship after the revolt is as bad as it was made out. My theory is that most of the documents were from the English side, and the Welsh documents made by the higher ends of society which would more likely see the effects.

I wager that many of the English settlers in the towns left back for England during the years of the uprising which was the main cause of hardship and "grass growing in town centres" because populations in these areas was so low, whereas if 75% of the Welsh population at the time was "barefoot peasants" then any economic impact would be negligable on the poorest but self sufficient individuals.

This is in considerable contrast to today, where the poorest always seem to suffer first because of the absence of self sufficiency and dependance on society. I understand that the high echeleons of welsh society felt the pinch just as much as the English however, but I feel that widespread hardship of the Welsh as a whole is incorrect, beyond anti-welsh policies of the English.

[edit] Wales's location in the United Kingdom

Do we really need a map of this? Surely people who know as little about the country as that could do with reading the entire Wales article before moving on Owain Glyndwr!

What would be fantastic for this page would be a map of those areas controlled by Owain at different periods. Does anyone have such a map? It's not much use, but I think I remember seeing one in Harlech Castle. garik 12:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've seen a map of the maximum extent of his control of Wales (not quite all of modern Wales) so it does exist ... but I cant remember where ? Jaster 13:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Rating?

This is a brilliant article by any standards. I wonder if it should be rated? Any thoughts folks? MarkThomas 13:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Certainly it has got enough information for a good article or even a featured article, but it would need to get embellished with inline citationsin order to pass. --Stemonitis 15:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Also the question of the title of the article being in Welsh would not stand up to more serious scrutinty than it received at the top here in 2004! Johnbod 18:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disappearance over Death

I changed the DEATH AND LEGACY section to DISAPPEARANCE AND LEGACY. Since nothing is no about him after 1412, his death is certain by now of course, but how, why, and when is still unknown. Jmlk17 09:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disappearance and legacy

Doing some minor cleanup, I found the following passage:

In 2006 The Owain Glyndwr Society's president Adrien Jones said: "Four years ago we visited a direct descendant of Glyndwr, a John Skidmore, at Kentchurch Court, near Abergavenny. "He took us to Monnington Straddle, in Herefordshire, where one of Glyndwr's daughters, Alice, had lived. Mr Skidmore told us that he (Glyndŵr) spent his last days there and eventually died there. It was a family secret for 600 years and even Mr Skidmore's mother, who died shortly before we visited, refused to reveal the secret. There's even a mound where he is believed to be buried at Monnington Straddle."

As one can see, the quotation marks are incorrect. Can someone more familiar with the subject, and the source of the quote, fix the quote to make it accurate? Thanks. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 15:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

The quote is also self-contradictory; if Skidmore's mother refused to reveal the secret then how did Skidmore know? Pbhj (talk) 23:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fall of Richard II

In Wales, people like Owain were asked for the first time in their life to decide their loyalties. The Welsh were traditionally supporters of King Richard, who had succeeded his father, The Black Prince, as Prince of Wales. With Richard removed the opportunities for advancement for Welsh people were suddenly severely limited. Many Welsh people seem to have been uncertain where this left them and their future.

I really can't believe that this was Owain's first chance to change his loyalties - perhaps the first chance to break from loyalty with their King? Also, use of "Welsh people" sounds like this affected the populous - we're talking about landowners, nobles, ruling classes, not just "Welsh people". Why had their opportunities to weasel in with the crown changed, they still had money, power, land, control of people - the things kings want more of? Pbhj (talk) 23:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)