Talk:Overfishing

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Contents

[edit] Discussion

killing fish or overfishing is a situation where one or more fish stocks are reduced below predefined levels of acceptance by fishing activities. More precise definitions are provided in biology and bioeconomics. Biological overfishing occurs when fishing mortality has reached a level where the stock biomass has negative marginal growth (slowing down biomass growth). Economic or bioeconomic overfishing in addition to the biological dynamics takes into consideration the cost of fishing and defines overfishing as a situation of negative marginal growth of resource rent. A more dynamic definition may also include a relevant discount rate and present value of flow of resource rent over all future catches.

Overfishing therefore may be sustainable, but in a non preferable way. Ultimately overfishing may however lead to depletion in cases of subsidised fisheries, low biological growth rates, critical biomass levels, etc.

Examples exist of the outcomes from overfishing in areas like the North Sea, and the Grand Banks on the east coast of North America. The result has been not only disastrous to fish stocks but also to the fishing communities relying on the harvest. Like forestry and hunting, fishery crisis is susceptible to economic interaction between ownership or stewardship and sustainability, or the tragedy of the commons.

The ability for nature to restore the fisheries is also dependent on whether the ecosystems are still in a state to allow fish numbers to build again. Dramatic changes in species composition may establish other equilibrium energy flows which involve other species compositions than before.

The "United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea" treaty deals with aspects of overfishing in articles 61, 62, and 65.

Article 61 requires all coastal states to ensure that the maintenance of living resources in their exclusive economic zones is not endangered by over-exploitation. The same article addresses the maintenance or restoration of populations of species above levels at which their reproduction may become seriously threatened. Article 62 provides that coastal states: "shall promote the objective of optimum utilization of the living resources in the exclusive economic zone without prejudice to Article 61" Article 65 provides generally for the rights of, inter alia, coastal states to prohibit, limit, or regulate the exploitation of marine mammals. [edit] See also catch and release

[edit] Privatization

Privatization is the solution to the overfishing problem. I'll Stop the World 20:13, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is not necessarily true. Firstly it depends in what kind of overfishing we are considering. If it is about biological overfishing, it may be true, but not necessarily. It is well known that the overfishing problem to a large extent is related to the market failure of a common property situation. The market failure may be resolved by privatisation and the overfishing gradually removed. But a private owner may find an optimal exploitation below the limits of biological overfishing if the private owner’s discount rate is far above the growth rate of the fish resource and the unit profit is high even at low stock levels. This may be the case in whaling, but also applies to some fish stocks with low individual growth rates. --- Arnejohs 12:57, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have the question about the example given on "privatization". It's not really "privatization" what had been done in British Columbia, rather than rearranging the fishing quotas in more sensible and flexible way. --Mikoyan21 11:51, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Global Warming/Climate Change

I recall once reading in a forum a suggestion that all the overfishing in the world may be signifigant enough to slightly contribute to global warming/climate change becuase of all the carbon (temporarily) removed from the carbon cycle. Is this much of a factor? Enough to warrant a mention?

To what extent overfishing (which has several definitions) may contribute to global warming by its interaction with the carbon cycle is a non-trivial question. The fishing activity involves fuel consumption. Based on a pure carbon cycle view this may even compensate the removal of carbon from the biomass. This reasoning does however not lead anywhere. In a dynamic perspective though, the carbon pressure in the atmosphere influence the process of binding carbon physically in the sea. The biomass content of carbon may increase in the sea by global warming, firstly by increased primary production if sufficient quantities of nutrients are available. The biological growth may also increase, even without changing the over all environmental capacity of total biomass. If the biological growth rate increases, catch production may increase and previous levels of overfishing are lifted. It is important to remember that it is not only the standing stock which is influenced by fishing activities; also the compensation rate of the biological system is affected. --Arnejohs 08:24, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Another factor is that global warming will increase the temperature of the waters, reducing the amount of oxygen and carbon dioxide that can be dissolved within it. Richard001 07:05, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, it's not all that easy. Increased carbon pressure in the atmosphere will increase the total carbon bound in the water masses. Carbon is also present as biomass, which may increase as the temperature rises. Oxygen is not necessarily an active constraint in this processes. ---Arnejohs 07:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "maximum observed abundance"

Isn't this basically identical to "initial yield"? I'm not sure I can picture the scenario where stocks increase after fishing begins. Esn 21:07, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] initial paragraph

Overfishing is a situation

A situation and not an activity?

where one or more fish stocks are reduced below predefined levels of acceptance

Who does the predefining and accepting?

by fishing activities. More precise definitions are provided in biology and bioeconomics.

Bioeconomics is a short article. It does not give a more precise definition of 'overfishing'.

Biological overfishing occurs when fishing mortality

A red link is hardly helpful in a definition.

has reached a level where the stock biomass has negative marginal growth (slowing down biomass growth), as indicated by the red area in the figure.

Do you mean biomass is decreasing, or that it is still growing, but more slowly?

Economic or bioeconomic overfishing in addition to the biological dynamics takes into consideration the cost of fishing and defines overfishing as a situation of negative marginal growth of resource rent. A more dynamic definition may also include a relevant discount rate and present value of flow of resource rent over all future catches.

Now I am lost completely.

Contrast the Concise Oxford Dictionary:

overfish v.t. Fish (stream etc.) too much and thus deplete it.

Simple enough.

Some of us are trying to write an encyclopedia, which should enlighten rather than obfuscate. We should not be shy of technicality, but when we do start using technical definitions, we should say how they relate to common understandings of words.

Somehow I feel that perhaps some material has been pasted in from a technical or legal paper about overfishing. There could be a copyvio going on.

I might try to rewrite this paragraph soon. I hope I don't lose some important detail.

--Publunch 18:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Second paragraph doesn't get any better. depletion links to a disambig page. I think resource depletion is meant, though I also had to read sustainability depletion. Is it only subsidised fishing that leads to depletion? --Publunch 19:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

good grief. it is certainly not just subsidized fishing that leads to overfishing! Anlace 22:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Subsidized fishing leads to depletion. And I think 'depletion' is meant in a technical sense, such that price mechanisms make it impossible for non-subsidized fishing to lead to depletion. I am not an economist however. (This article needs an economist who can speak plain English.)--Publunch 23:19, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
It is certainly possible to have depletion or overfishing without subsidies. Look at Monterey Bay and dozens of other places. Are you confusing extinction with depletion? Depletion does not mean every last fish is gone!! Anlace 23:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caption on Image:Global shark catch graph 1950 to 2004.png

The image Image:Global shark catch graph 1950 to 2004.png is currently included in the fish production and demand section. I changed the caption from "Graph showing shark overfishing from 1950 to 2006" to "Graph showing shark catch from 1950 to 2006" since "overfishing" is an original interpretation of the data (see WP:NOR). The picture description is only increases in catch, which may be due to increased fishing effort, expansion of fisheries into new areas, changes in total available biomass or any number of other factors. Moving from total catch to a biomass estimate is not a reasonable jump, much less a result which others have arrived at to be cited. I was inclined to delete the whole image, but a minimal change to describe the caption seemed more immediate. Thoughts? --TeaDrinker 23:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree - the burden of proof is on Anlace here to provide a source about shark overfishing, not on you (or me). Moreover, the wording "overfishing" is inaccurate; the graph does not show the overfishing (the catch beyond sustainable capacity) but the overall catch. Esn 23:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
i accept your reasoning. sorry i missed this discussion on talk page. this article really needs a lot more refa and data and i shall try to focus my attention on such additions. cheers. Anlace 16:16, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's your source for shark overfishing. :( Esn 07:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe it's just me... but when I click on the little number on a source in the article, it doesn't go to the source at the bottom of the page as it should. Any idea why? Esn 16:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Personal Responsibility?

I've read hundreds of articles on overfishing over the last 10 years, and not a single one that I can recall has suggested that the dear reader simply make a small sacrifice and stop eating seafood until the populations recover. I have not even seen an article make the wishy-washy suggestion that people "eat less" seafood. Every article features the disasters about to happen, with opinions from experts, but seems to blame the fishermen, many of whom probably do not follow scientific studies on the matter and are trying to supply the market's demand. And that's what this is - a case of supply and demand - but it seems that no one has the courage to blame the consumer.

Are there any good articles we can source that feature such suggestions from experts? Any widespread organizations urging a boycott of seafood? I would like to see some kind of section in this article mentioning such a movement. Noxic 23:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

In an ideal world your point Noxic would make a lot of sense, but we live in a world where overpopulation has eliminated most sensible decisions left to the humans on the planet. All the world's food resources are in serious question as to their ability to sustain human life without famine and human misery. Sorry to break the bad news to you. Anlace 03:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Anlace, there's no need to be condescending. You're not the only person on the internet to harbor concerns about overpopulation and feel angry about it. The facts of huge human populations and over-consumption are precisely why I feel a section on seafood abstinence would be of interest to those who care about this subject. Yes, there are many people who reacted to the recent news of fish stocks crashing within 50 years with short-sighted selfishness ("I'm going to eat all the shrimp I can, while I still can") - just check the blogosphere. But other people are writing about their determination to give up seafood for the next 50 years. Of course, blogs aren't reliable sources for wikipedia, but I hope to find sites by environmental groups and concerned citizens urging this kind of abstinence. I have found many sites by environmental groups that list which fish are "okay" to eat instead of the threatened species - this smacks of sweeping the dirt to the other side of the room, but I will include such information in the section I am preparing.
Basically, I think the fact that so many people will not care at all, and will continue to eat whatever they can get at, is all the more reason for caring people to help ease the strain by not consuming seafood. Noxic 01:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Noxic, I think your point is a valid one, and I would welcome the addition of such material. It may be easier to find in popular journalism (op-ed) than in referred journals, however. BrainyBabe 13:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your encouragement. I didn't know that op-ed pieces could be sources on WP. I am eager to start this section, and will welcome enthusiastically anything you can contribute to it once it is up. Noxic 01:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I am not suggesting that op-ed articles are the best source, but rather that through popular journalism you may come across resources (eg mention of campaigning groups or individuals) that have not yet appeared in more academically mainstream publications. For example, I imagine that some vegan or vegetarian groups might have a campaign on this issue. And, of course, it depends on who is writing the op-ed piece: a respected authority, or someone best known for ranting about things with maximum volume and minimum thought. I'll keep this on my watchlist. Good luck. BrainyBabe 10:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I personally feel it's blatantly obvious to the reader that they can ease the pressure by not eating fish, though sadly I think most readers wouldn't be able to see that so easily. Richard001 07:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maximum sustainable yield

One important concept in sustainable fisheries is the 'maximum sustainable yield' - some information on this topic such as exactly what level of population is the economically sustainable optimum would be nice. I understand it's much lower than the normal population, though how much lower I'm not sure. Richard001 07:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Effect of regulation

I have recently read a few articles by Phil Bolger and Susanne Altenburger, (2004 National Fisherman, 2006 Gouchester Daily Times and 2007 Messing About in Boats) where they hypothesize that the role of government regulation has implications on the bioeconomics of a fishery. In short, issuance of fishing permits based on length of ship gives an economic bias towards wide deep ships. Wide deep ships require more horsepower, greater capital cost and more complex equipment to function. Resulting in higher initial and ongoing capital costs (running costs for financing, fuel and repairs) creating an powerful economic force demanding higher yield to turn a profit. If the regulations was per ton of ship instead of length, then the economics would favor cheaper long, shallow and narrow ships with corresponding lower financing costs, lower horsepower, equipment complexity. Lower initial cost and running cost means leaner boats demanding less fishery yield to remain profitable. Highly capitalized (and underutilized) fleets demand unsustainable high yields for profitablity, while lower capitalized fleets have a higher probability to be profitable at sustainable yield levels. This is a novel idea to me at least, I am curious if any other fishery researcher have explored the idea of the regulatory effect on fleet capitalization? SaltyBoatr 17:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

  • I'm not sure if this is in the scope of a wikipedia talk page (seriously, is it?) :). Anyway, I think, but haven't seen those articles you mention, the authors are talking about very specific fisheries. Most fisheries are not simply regulated on the length of a ship. Common regulatory matters are (hardware ones..) mesh size / gear type, engine output or engine power, tonnage and just about any other hardware based variable capable of influencing fishing capacity you can think off. It's absolutely impossible -scope of fisheries- and wrong -erroneously simplifies a complex problem- to make a wide -covering many completely different fisheries- assumption on economic or environmental sustainability of 'large' vs 'small' ships. Just think of this: a 10 euro ship owned by one person has just as many incentives to fish as a 100 euro ship owned by ten persons (ok, now I'M simplifying a bit). DanniellaWB 00:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Can you help me learn the specifics by pointing to where I can read the specific regulations for specific fisheries? SaltyBoatr

[edit] Marine Stewardship Council

Short question: the Marine Stewardship Council in this article copies a lot of the information already found in Marine Stewardship Council. e.g. an introduction to the organisation etc. Do we want that here? Isn't it better to have a broad section on conservation / eco labels instead and mention the MSC in that? DanniellaWB 23:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fishing capacity merge here?

I believe this orphaned article should get merged here. Right place? -- Kendrick7talk 22:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Support-- same thing. Mangostar (talk) 07:13, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. Merge completed. --Geronimo20 (talk) 07:41, 18 April 2008 (UTC)