Talk:Over Soul

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Heh. Not bad, for my first page... Any ideas & comments are appreciated ! Feel free to complete / correct it. After all, this is Wikipedia... In the meantime, I'll aplly the same principle to Giant Over Soul.

SmegEd 10:03, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merger

I think it would be best for ease of use and so forth, to merge all of the articles concerning techniques into one. Many of these articles are very short, and we could reduce the size of the template significantly, making the Shaman King articles much easier to navigate. Thoughts? Ctu2485 01:03, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Translation" Discussion

Hiroyki Takei has written almost all the Tao Clan related terms in their Japanese pronunciations. I do not know or care how Viz or 4kids have translated that. This page is not in regards to strictly the English versions of this series. Its about the series as a whole and in that respect we need to defer to the original.

-Matt Davis Formerly known as IP address 129.219.67.109 00:24, 25 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.219.67.109 (talk) 00:24, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not interested in checking this every hour to make sure the information is still correct so let's talk this out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrdavis6 (talk • contribs) 01:17, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

...O'kay, first let's put it out there. Your sources are purely independent and grounded on scanlation (which are normally revisioned for mistranslation themselves. I know...I work on a few). Secondly, Hiroyuki Takei written names in cultural respect (ie. O.S.Bushin Yúchì -- Page 188, volume 26. Shaman King Character File No.139. "Yúchì" which is Chinese. [1]).

You're preference of translation can't change the fact that another translation is just as, if not more, correct than your own...Sorry, man. Viz may not be dead-on with a lot of their translations, but they got the rights, and at least, they translate it half decently. I, myself, have studied Japanese for years (written and speech) and a bit of Chinese. And the fact that "宝雷剣" is pronouced "Houraiken" in language and "Bâo-Lèi Jian" in Chinese, is purely cultural. And did you notice that you refer to the Houraiken itself as "Houraiken Wu Jian" you're essentially mix translating it as "Treasured Thunder Sword - Wushu Sword".

I have been translating for years, and if there's one thing I know is that Japanese doesn't have certain words for some of the words that we (in the USA) use. And also the internet translators most ALWAYS mistranslates. So if your point of translation is dependent on that, then you'll always have a mistranslation (ie. "Bushin" meaning "Fighting God", when actually it would be "Tōshin"). And why do you erase my reference notes? I worked hard researching that!! I have yet to see you provide any standing work to support your argument, man....Venting aside, the fact still remains that just because you 'prefer' one translation over the other doesn't mean much. This article was not meant for personal amusement, but for info...correct info. And you, my friend, have left numerous translational cracks in your contributions. Now we can work together, but we have to put our personal 'wants' aside...that's why I, at least, added the reference spot. -- Reige 02:05, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Can I just first off remind everyone to SIGN THEIR POSTS using four "~". It is confusing not knowing who is saying what. Next, I understand the Houraiken-Bâo-Lèi tug of war. What we need to consider is whether to use the Viz translation or the whatever 4Kids uses. Yes, I know it's horrible, but scanlations aren't really worth anything at this point. This is the English wikipedia, and while we may add events from scanlated manga, we are obligated to use whatever professional translation fits the mold. So, while I personally prefer Houraiken, seeing as that is what is said in the Japanese version of the anime, we have to use whatever Viz or 4Kids use. I'll tell you right now, "Jian" doesn't belong there, as Viz calls it "Bâo-Lèi sword". Jezebel Parks 02:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know...I kinda like the "Bâo-Lèi Sword" translation better...sounds classier (Bâo-Lèi, Bâo-Lèi, Bâo-Lèi, Bâo-Lèi...kinda sounds like "Hou-Rai" if you think about it). Anyway, Jezebel Parks is right. Mrdavis6, we have to follow protocol; Yes, they ousted the my favorite term "furyoku" for "mana" (though "mana" does have a staying power to it), but I would rather save it doing things correctly, than lose everything. At least we can make reference points for translation comparison. That should, at least, preserve some of the hard translation work. Mrdavis6, I'd be cool to have you on work along with us. You in?
—— Reige 03:35, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

OK first I'm so sorry for erasing your sources! I wasn't trying to do that! It was totally an accident. Secondly I'm not basing my readings on scanslations. Looked at the pages I provided in the raws. Takei wrote Bushin Yuchi in the character file but in every other instance it Bushin Yuu Tsuu. That's my biggest issue. I defer to you on all things wiki (ie sources and what not) but if you look at the furigana for theses terms I'm just putting in what Takei is using (for instance DaiDouOu versus your DaDaoWang). Also I ask you to not be condescending. I'm not amusing myself, I made those changes because I feel you're wrong on some points. Now I totally admit I didn't follow the referencing regulations, but I still think that on the whole I'm right. As far as the Arms General thing goes that's not even a close translation of those kanji. Bason himself is referred to as a master arms general but that kanji is undeniably "god". Also for Ryu's O.S. that katakana clearly says "Susanorou". That's just a fact. I'm not getting into a pissing contest but I've been taking Japanese for a while too. Anyways I'm totally interested in working together too! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrdavis6 (talk • contribs) 06:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I don't really care about my references spots, I was being stupid but...you're right. It is "Susanorou". (Can't believe I overlooked that.) Hehe...Now, I kinda feel stupid here. Although I'm still certain terms, if you believe it's different I can't change that. But when I translate Bushin (武神?) it loosely translates to Military Affairs God or something to that effect. Then it's just a matter of grammar, it cannot be "Fighting God" because then it would be Tōshin (闘神?), but I do agree; it does have that consistent "God" in the term, so maybe I'm over-probing the issue. But there's no way to really explain "Military Affairs" correctly other than "Arms General" or "God of Warfare", or "Warlord". I'm starting to believe it's "Warlord", I mean it fits the context of military affairs and the ruler moniker of "god". What do you think?

I think I now of a way we can all win here. As far as "Yuu Tsuu" if you mean the furigana "ュー シー" then that's "yushi"; essentially, it's still "Yúchì". But that's not the point. Maybe we can use that (the furigana) in the notes to help with pronunciation and such.
——— Reige 12:46, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

OK that works for me! I see how its not fighting god I just feel like Arms General is an especially liberal translation because in the chapter Super Bushin first appears in Bason is referenced as a "master arms general" with different terms. I think "God of War" is a sufficient translation.

Are you positive its yushi? Oh wait I just took an extra hard look at that and you're right! Man I feel dumb now too. Also I wanted to add my reasoning for writing "Houraiken" Jian was that you have "Basontou" Guandao. My thoughts are that if we're not saying that "tou" and "guandao" is repetitive than I do not think "ken" and "jian" are either.

Also I want to continue to assert that character file for Tao En/Yuan's O.S. shows them having the Japanese pronunciation. I'm just not sure where you seeing the Chinese terms being used in the manga. Anyways I'm glad we could compromise! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrdavis6 (talk • contribs) 17:00, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Here's an idea I normally use for situations like this. I've been working on Yoh Asakura's page for awhile (actually planning a big update soon). I've added the section "Shamanic Spells & Abilities" where I normally added an alternative translation to technique names. Here's an example:

憑依合体 Hyōi Gattai
Translation: VIZ "Spirit Integration", literally "Spirit Unity"
This shamanic technique enables the shaman to integrate spirits into their body, forming a "unity" of both, their spirit and that of the ghost. The shaman would enter a special trance which enables them to synchronize their spirit with that of the ghost; allowing the ghost to possess their body and enabling the ghost to interact with the physical world. Furthermore, once integrated, the shaman takes on the knowledge & wisdom of the ghost as well as their personality. Though it is unknown when Yoh learned this technique.

If we use this format we can add key info without the use of reference points. I think this could solve a lot of things. We are within the rules AND we still have our freedoms of interpretation. Now this only applies to the Over Soul's names. Mediums and such would still need reference points.
——— Reige 20:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah so I take it that all this Chinese is the work of Viz. They must've made the executive decision to translate or represent all the Tao Clan terms in their Chinese pronounciations. OK if we are forced by regulation to show the Viz version we can go with your method. I do agree that mediums should remained referenced as they are because it would get too cluttered otherwise. However, I think it it is really important that we put in the references that the Japanese pronounciations come from the original source (Takei) where as on the whole, the Chinese pronounciations come from Viz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrdavis6 (talk • contribs) 21:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeap. VIZ started this after they release the English Volume 1, with Ren's Zhong Hua Zhan Wu--Vorpal Dance. But to be honest, I think it's cool that they respect the character's ethnicity with certain dialogue (ie. Horohoro's Kaukau Priwenpe--Renegade Hail and Faust's German quotes), but that's me; and makin' a big mess of things, but I'm sure this little idea'll help out. Just add a slot for "Alternative Translations" and swap whichever translation. The bigwigs shouldn't care as long as they include the English-edition of the translation. Now on to phase 2--Character page updates!
——— Reige 22:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Awesome! I'm glad we could solve this! Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrdavis6 (talk • contribs) 23:16, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

You know what I took a second look at that page that Ren first intros his new Over Soul and it is actually tsu not. Every other time the Over Soul is mentioned it is also actually tsu not shi. To be double sure I looked up the onyomi for that Kanji and sure enough it is tsu. Now I think I we need to add Bushin Yuu Tsuu as the alternate (original) translation. Also I take issue with the translation of Chocolove's last name as McDowell. From the katakana it seems clear that it is McDonell. Also I'd like to remove Nipopo Gauntlets from the entry for Nipopo Tekunpe because the reference already has the translation.Mrdavis6 01:30, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm...everything is fine. But as far as Joco/Chocolove's name I don't think there's a need to change it. The difference in names are covered on his page (other I have to update). But other than that, nothings else seems to be an issue.

Seeing as we're on the topic of Over Souls, I was debating the idea of making a "list" page for all the Over Souls listed on the page. Reason being it's long as it is and...after adding ALL the O.S. it will become VERY long, ultimately distracting from the important information of the article. Either we do this other, we can just add an entry on each character's page. It's a thought... ——— Reige 13:30, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Well I just don't think it is a matter of debate. I could be many names: McDonnell, McDaniel, etc. but there is definitely no way its McDowell. That would be マクダウエル not マクダネル as is stated clearly in the manga and on his page. Where is McDowell coming from?

I think that it would be best to add ALL the Over Souls to a list. Also I think we should have a hyperlink list with links to all the Reoccuring Over Souls cuz right now the page is getting pretty long and this would make it more manageable. What do you think?Mrdavis6 21:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I added some explanation of Chocolove's confused ancestory. Takei has either very poor knowledge of South and Central American Indian culture or was intending that Chocolove was to represent all of said cultures. I still look to you as far as rethinking Chocolove's last name btw. Mrdavis6 19:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for havin' been absent for this long. But down to business: Chocolove's name. Is it "McDowell" or "McDonnell"? I now they use "McDowell" in the English dub, that's the reason I've been using that version, but the English manga hasn't gotten to the volume yet...But, I think it's safe to say it's "McDonnell". ——— Reige 19:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Whats S.O.F. and Onmyōdō and reiyoku mean?

24.167.217.199 (talk) 03:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Whats S.O.F. and Onmyōdō and reiyoku mean?

24.167.217.199 (talk) 03:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Q: What's "S.O.F"...mean?
A: Spirit Of Fire.

Q: What's..."Onmyōdō"...mean?
A: Onmyōdō (陰陽道? "On'yōdō") is a traditional Japanese esoteric cosmology, a mixture of natural science and occultism. Hao is a master onmyōji, a practitioner of Onmyōdō who has obtained their highest rank of yin-yang master. Check out the article "Onmyōdō" and its sub-segment "Onmyōji" for more in-depth information.

Q: What's...reiyoku mean?
A: Reiyoku is the measure of supernatural power an apparition (or ghost) possesses. The higher a ghost's reiyoku, the more powerful their magical abilities; but this also measures their level of furyoku consumption. The Over Soul article explains more how this relates to the power of a shaman.
Reige (talk) 15:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Angel

Here's a pic for conformation of my edit...it's little known knowledge after all: http://images.wikia.com/shamanking/en/images//9/9b/O.S._Angel.jpg Haftorang 00:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanx. I been extraordinarily lazy in updating. I'd been meaning to add a segment for the "Angel O.S." so thanx 4 takin the initiative 2 do so.
Reige (talk) 17:19, 25 April 2008 (UTC)