Talk:Outsider Art/archive1

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I am an Outsider/Self Taught Artist Working and Living In Rockaway Beach New York And Every Time I Look On The Internet For Outsider?self taught Art It is Always The Same Tight Encapsulated Label Or Title About this Form Sincerly James Anthony Chambers email: outsiderartistjamesachambers@yahoo.com

It seems to me that the "Art Brut" entry should probably be absorbed into the "Outsider art" entry. I've just dropped in, so I don't want to do that unilaterally. Any opinions?--BTfromLA 18:32, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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[edit] Is Thym a notable outsider artist?

I'm tempted to delete the listing of Thym among outsider artists--he's certainly an interesting figure, and in some respects related to the concerns of outsider art, but he is from an earlier century and primarily a writer. In other words, he isn't really established as a figure in the same category with Darger, Wolfli, Gill, etc. Any thoughts? --BTfromLA 19:04, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree. In general, I think the section should be renamed "Notable Outsider artists" and should only include the absolute cream of the crop, along with a link to the category. I dont think we want it to become too bloated with every and any outsider artist that has an article, it should just direct people unfamiliar with outsider art to the most notable figures with the best developed pages. Thym is interesting but I dont think he belongs--Clngre 20:31, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Great Apes as Outsider Artists?

I was reading about outsider art for pretty much the first time just now and I just kept thinking about the paintings made by great apes such as Michael (a gorilla, Koko's buddy) or Fauna Foundation chimpanzees. Could they or are they currently considered as "outsider artists?" The label does seem to fit, as I doubt these painters have been much influenced by mainstream art... --bad_leprechaun 04:23, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguating Art Brut the band

If there's a need to offer a link to the band Art Brut, please create a seperate disambiguation page for the term "Art Brut," which is now redirected here. While a discussion of Art Brut is included on the Outsider Art page, it is not correct to say that "this article is about the Art Brut movement." BTfromLA 14:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Please do this yourself if you feel so strongly about it, rather than just removing the link without doing it. Art Brut is a redirect, if it's not just another name for Outsider Art then perhaps it ought not to be a redirect at all? Morwen - Talk 15:28, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Done. You should have accepted responsibilty for this, though, since you are the one who wanted the change. As to why it was redirected and how Art Brut relates to Outsider Art--did you bother to read even the intro of the article you were editing? BTfromLA 16:38, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Yes, obviously. When I made that original edit I was uncomfortable with the exact wording, but couldn't think of another way to put it that wouldn't be horribly confusing, and certainly didn't feel confident enough to make Art Brut a redirect. I'm sure you would have reacted even more hostilely to that. Explaining the exact relation between the two terms would obviously be too long for a disambiguation note at the top, I was hoping that editors would be tolerant enough to allow a slight glossing for the sake of expediency. Morwen - Talk 22:34, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Fair enough, Morwen. Sorry if I came across as hostile. I think we have a satisfactory resolution now, yes? BTfromLA 00:21, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Yes. Sorry if you think I over-reacted, perhaps I did - but is quite galling to be accused of adding vanity links... Morwen - Talk 08:45, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
That was my mistake, I jumped to that conclusion based on the state of that band article at the time. Started our exchange on a bad foot. My apology. BTfromLA 18:37, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

I have removed the links that were not in English, were not working at all, were linking to single artists rather than encyclopedic overviews of the field, and those designed to promote non-established artists. The links section should be very short, limited to a short list of the best resources for futher study of the topic at hand.

Note to user 67.165.73.143: please leave comments on the talk page, or in the comments line of your edits--it is inappropriate to embed personal comments in the body of the article. BTfromLA 19:32, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect from Visionary art

All the material has been incorporated except the "see also" of Alex Grey. - brenneman(t)(c) 03:36, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

That was a silly thing to do... I don't have the time to undo this squashing together of two vaguely related kinds of art, but I did want to say I strongly disagree with this lumping. 64.236.128.14 19:35, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Art Brut (the band)

There used to be a page here for the British band Art Brut, available via the disambiguation page. Where has it gone now? They are not small in Britain and quite big in Germany (evidence: http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/news/05-09/15.shtml), featured in magazines and their album has been released worldwide. It's just a shame to see a relevant article *vanish* into nothingness. :-/

Both the disambiguation page[1] and the Art Brut (band) article are still here. --BTfromLA 05:37, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Aahh thanks :) ... I just am confused when you type in "Art Brut" in the search, it just redirects to Outsider Art. Puzzling!

[edit] Any comments on this related article?

Hi folks,

would anyone like to comment on Cosmic ray deflection society which is facing a vote for deletion? Each chapter of the CRDS supports an outsider artist, so I thought some of the people watching this article might also be familiar with the CRDS and be able to attest to its notability. Mamawrites 15:16, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of outsider artists

This list seems to be growing without bound. I'm going to remove all red links, and copy all of the blue links w/o explanatory paragraphs here for further discussion. A list of artists shouldn't be longer than the article, eh?
brenneman(t)(c) 21:46, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

List from main page, less red links and duplicated entries -
Good move, removing all those "notable" links. That's what the comprehensive listing page is for. I think if anybody gets added to the list, we should stick with the format, including a brief description of who they were and what they did, and it should be limited to the few outsider artists who are as widely recognized as the ones already listed. I'd say that Aloïse Corbaz and August Natterer are legitimate candidates for inclusion on the main page. Damian Le bas is definitely not--not only is he not, as far as I'm aware, particularly well know, anybody who lists Scottie Wilson as a conscious influence seems to me to be outside of the "outsider" category, which is about people producing works for reasons completely apart from the usual dialogue of artists with the history of art.
Others who might be worth adding to the main page are Eugene Von Bruenchenhein, Morton Bartlett, Judith Scott and Augustin Lesage. But I think we need to maintain a fairly stringent screen--they must be widely recognized--listed in most of the recent books on the topic--and clearly fit the "outsider" mold (I'd disqualify someone like Howard Finster, for example, as he has strong elements of Folk Art and also became a self-concious "artist" at some point, engaging an art audience). BTfromLA 21:48, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
The concern over the proliferation of outsider artists is interesting and the solution not easy. On the one hand one wants to recognize the new and less known as they do come under the definition but at the same time there is a loyalty to outstanding outsider artists. These days it is probably even hard to list all of the outstanding ones. The only thing I can think of is to utilize some sort of Java Applet that changes the list every time the page loads (there are applets for this) so that in the background out of sight you have a huge list but on the page you have a managable one. I have never looked into the ability to do this on Wikipedia but it may be helpful to do the research. The only truthful way to go without broader inclusion is to re-title the article: "outstanding outsider art" Good luck with the problem just a few thoughts.Conrad Jay Blade 22:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The solution is obvious: don't list any "Outsider artists." If they are notable, they are found in an article. Bus stop 22:53, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Keel and other marginal "marginals"

I've removed Adam Dario Keel and the image of his work again, on grounds that he is not one of the small handful of the most-recognized outsider artists. In my view, and I believe this is the consensus of editors here, those few are the only ones who should be featured on this page. Please see the other discussions on this talk page about this issue. Keel doesn't even have a Wikipedia stub article about him--the person interested in Keel should start by creating one, and by linking him to the larger list of outsider artists, rather than just asserting that Keel belongs in the canon of outsider artists. Because the "outsider artist" category is potentially so broad--literally thousands of people can be claimed as outsider artists, and there is an economic motivation for people to list "their" outsider here--it is my view that we need to be strict about which artists are cited as examples in this short article, limiting the list to the most widely exhibited and written about--Wolfli, Darger, Gill, etc. This is not to say that Keel is not a legitimate artist, or a legitmate "outsider"--just that his work is not remotely as well known or influential in the field as the other artists mentioned here. It isn't our job to create reputations, only to report on the situation as it exists. BTfromLA 15:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC)



[edit] Lautréamont?

Would Lautréamont be considered outsider artist?--Sonjaaa 16:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd say no. First, Because Lautreamont was, as far as I know, intending to write work of literary value--a key defining trait of outsider art is that it isn't clear at all that the creator saw what they were doing as "art." The other problem with Lautreamont in this context is that his work was entirely literary (wasn't it?). The "Outsider Art" category, though it admits people who include writing in their work, is generally limited to work that is seen in relation to visual art objects. There is another, less well established, category of "outsider literature." But Lautreamont, a strange but very sophisticated writer, probably wouldn't be admitted there either. BTfromLA 07:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Axel of the world" - a misspelled translation?

The title, "Axel of the world," is common on the web. However, it seems to be a misspelled translation of the original German Weltachse mit Haase. Please comment!EAS 00:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nick Blinko--notable enough?

I removed the following addition from the "Notable Outsider Artists" section:

  • Nick Blinko Vocalist/Guitarist for British Anarcho-Punk band Rudimentary Peni. Much of his notable work is featured as artwork for the bands albums, among others such as his peice "Skeleton Series"

He is marketed as an Outsider artist and his work is represented in high-level outsider art collections. The question is whether he rises to the level of notability for Wikipedia's short list. To my knowledge, he is far less recognized than all of the other names on our list, so I vote "cut"--he should be included in the Outsider artists category, but not featured in the main article. But since this listing isn't the usual promotional spam that plagues this article, and I invite arguments to the contrary. In my view, we have to be strict about limiting this list to a few of the best-established figures (at the level of Wolfli, Ramirez and Darger), due to the enormous number of candidates who can claim "outsider" status. BTfromLA 22:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)