Talk:Outer Hebrides

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Contents

[edit] Move to Western Isles?

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Should this article not be at Western Isles, with the redirect going from here to there? That is the official English name for the region/unitary authority. The number of links is about equal, though. Sjorford 13:24, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'd certainly agree with that. QuartierLatin1968 04:18, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy is to generally go with the most common name rather than the official name (so that if someone guesses a link, they will probably get it right). If the what-links-here is evenly split between the two options, you might as well go with the official name. At the moment it is 2:1 in favour of Outer Hebrides, with the split being:
126 → Outer Hebrides
58 → Western Isles
However in this case, it is a little trickier. I can see that other countries may also have some Western Isles, so in time you might have to move to 'Western Isles, UK' and have a disambig page at 'Western Isles'. On the other hand, 'Outer Hebrides' is more likely to be unique, but I always have trouble spelling it. So I'll sit on the fence on this one. -- Solipsist 08:08, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Point taken. But I don't think Wikipedia's policy is to prefer common names to official ones when it comes to administrative divisions (perhaps I'm wrong about that). But an administrative division is an actual corporate entity, and also an arm of the State, and therefore has as strong a claim on having its proper name used as other corporations or government agencies. We are talking about the Western Isles council area here (or perhaps I should even say Na h-Eileanan Siar council area).
Let's try to think of another instance where this might be tricky... It's possible that more people customarily refer to Northern Ireland as Ulster (an informal name, also an inaccurate one, since Ulster is bigger than NI). Should Wikipedia let them get away with it? The article on Burma is also listed under the current official name, Myanmar, even though this name is much less common (and incidentally slated to be changed back to Burma when the current military junta are finally overthrown). So perhaps I'm actually making an argument for moving this page to na h-Eileanan Siar, if that has indeed been made the offical name. QuartierLatin1968 13:50, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Actually there is a Na h-Eileanan Siar page, but its over on the Gàidhlig (Scots Gaelic) Wiki. Which is perhaps where is should be, as the English Wiki generally uses the most common name in English. But the Ulster example is interesting, as it is not the same area as Northern Ireland and has a different history. As such there are articles on both. So I figured I had best phone a friend who lives on Lewis to check that the 'Western Isles' and the 'Outer Hebrides' are one and the same area.
The conclusion is that they are, but local residents would generally prefer the name 'Outer Hebrides' (although in truth most wouldn't think about it too much and are more likely to talk about specific islands). The name 'Western Isles' is seen as a more recent municipal name that the council uses and somewhat artifical. Interestingly, she also mentioned that the official, council run website to attract tourists to the islands, which was the 'Western Isles Tourist Board' at http://www.witb.co.uk/ (incidentally the #1 Google hit for 'Western Isles'), has now been redesigned and redirects to http://www.visithebrides.com/ to emphasises the Hebrides name.
So I guess I will come off the fence and suggest we leave the article at 'Outer Hebrides'. -- Solipsist 18:55, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Someone has in fact gone ahead and redirected (not moved) this page to 'Na h-Eileanan Siar'. This appears to ignore the above discussion, to I am inclined to revert the change. Any comment on this? - Crosbiesmith 21:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I have reinstate the page under this title. I have no particular opinion on the move, but it should not be done when there is no consensus for it. If people would like to move it, it should be raised at Wikipedia:Requested moves. In particular, pages should never be moved by cut and pasting as this loses page histories. Warofdreams talk 02:02, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


[edit] Flags?

Can someone with more local knowledge verify these? In a 2 week visit I never saw any of these, only ever the Saltire flag. I removed the Western Isles flag because I see no way that the Comhairle nan Eilean Siar would have a flag including the union flag--JBellis 17:58, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I have lived in the Western Isles all my life, I'm bound to say that this is the first time that I have come across these flags. If they have any sort of official or semi-official status then it seems to be a well kept secret. I'll remove them unless anyone is better informed to the contrary. Xdamr 23:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
It'll be another net hoax. Removing it. MRM 06:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
This is the only one I've ever actually seen in use, and it's not very common.MRM 07:32, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Counties

This does not seem quite right: Some of the southern islands form part of Inverness-shire and some part of Ross-shire. I believe Lewis, in the north, is Ross-shire, and the rest is Inverness-shire. Laurel Bush 11:09, 31 December 2005 (UTC).

Yes - only Lewis was in Ross & Cromarty, Harris and all the rest were Inverness-shire.--JBellis 15:43, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Cheers. Laurel Bush 10:34, 4 January 2006 (UTC).

[edit] The map

The map shows the islands' location in relation to most the rest of Scotland, except the Shetlands, which are not even depicted in an inset map, as is often done with remote territorial fragments such as islands and exclaves in order to save "empty map space". The same goes for maps of the United Kingdom and England, which sometimes fail to take into account that the Isles of Scilly and of Wight are in England, and not a foreign country like the Man. Perhaps these maps should be altered to reflect this? //Big Adamsky 20:40, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Official names

The article refers to official names, giving names of Gaelic origin. Are all these names official in both English and Gaelic? (The constituency name does seem to be so official.) Laurel Bush 10:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC).

Name change, as enabled by the Local Government (Gaelic Names) (Scotland) Act 1997, seems to imply that a new name of Gaelic origin becomes the English name: the change does not create two names, one for use in Gaelic, the other in English; it displaces the previous English name. Laurel Bush 11:11, 16 January 2006 (UTC). Local Government (Gaelic Names) (Scotland) Act 1997.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus. —Nightstallion (?) 12:39, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move request

Copied from Wikipedia:Requested moves:

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

  • Oppose - I do see that the official name is now na h-Eileanan Siar, but nevertheless convention is to use common English names in the English Wikipedia, and this area has two perfectly good English names we could use. I'd be happy with either Outer Hebrides or Western Isles, but not with a Gaelic name that I'm afraid 99% of English speakers can neither spell nor pronounce. — sjorford (talk) 10:51, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - Na h-Eileanan Siar is now officially the name in English. It might be derived from Gaelic, but it is now English. Laurel Bush 11:05, 18 February 2006 (UTC).
  • Support - Yes, there are 2 English names, but both are unofficial. Western Isles used to be, but no longer is. The current article is under "Outer Hebrides", which is as has been pointed out, a rough geographical term. Kris_sw 19:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC).
  • Oppose. The convention is to use the most common English name regardless of what the official name is, e.g. the article on East Germany isn't entitled German Democratic Republic; the one on Libya isn't entitled the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya. I doubt most English speakers could spell Na h-Eileanan Siar. Jll 22:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - OK, so maybe some people will still search for the old names, but then again, most people are likely to search for Highland and not Highland (council area) and Kilmarnock and Loudoun, not Kilmarnock and Loudoun (UK Parliament constituency). Still, that's the name of the articles in Wiki. Anyway, there will be re-directs, but having the article under its proper name will emphasise that na h-Eileanan Siar is its official name. 86.142.202.57 22:26, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Outer Hebrides and Western Isles will still be Redirects to this article. (Highland should never have been moved to Highland (council area). I think that we ought to Request a move back to the proper name for that one too. Kilmarnock and Loudoun can refer to more than one thing, of roughly equal notability, thus it points to a dab page.) --Mais oui! 22:43, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - It looks like this was descussed before and didn't pass. I like one of the original statments and it still holds true for me "Wikipedia policy is to generally go with the most common name rather than the official name (so that if someone guesses a link, they will probably get it right)" (UKPhoenix79 06:35, 19 February 2006 (UTC))
  • Neutral - I'm happy with this as apparently the official name, other names should be redirects and shown in bold in the first sentence. ...dave souza, talk 10:55, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Just because some people think it's officially called Outer Hebrides, it doesn't mean it just be there. This is meant to be an encyclopedia - i.e. to give facts, not common misconceptions. Dvdldn 21:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - for the reasons given by Jll. CarolGray 21:41, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I support the use of commonly used English terminology over official terminology. The Scottish parliament has no jurisdiction over Wikipedia, and terms in common speech often have a longer lifetime than official designations. - Crosbiesmith 22:59, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Support I agree with "Dvdldn". It should reflect fact, not something else just cause it's easier to spell. Also, if there are going to be redirects, it won't change anything. 86.142.46.199 12:12, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Support on the grounds that it's the up to date name. However I think that the category of the same title should remain. --JBellis 22:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose - This move request seems to be based on several misconception. First, and most importantly, this article is not about the political division — that would be Na h-Eileanan an Iar (UK Parliament constituency), as is made clear in the lead para. Rather this article is about the group of islands. Secondly, Wikipedia:Use English applies. In English, this group of islands is almost universally known as either the 'Outer Hebrides' or the 'Western Isles' and can be contrasted with the Inner Hebrides and the Northern Isles. This of course can also be verified by the 'What links here' page. Similarly, in English, the main town on the island of Lewis is Stornoway, not Steòrnabhagh. This is also the common usage on the island, unless the conversation is in Gaelic (which is rare). It is also a common landmark on say the BBC UK weather map. When the BBC starts using the Gaelic name, so can we. Many smaller areas on the island have both English and Scots Gaelic versions of their names, which tend to get used interchangably by locals, even when talking in English. For some of them it can be tricky to decide, but for the larger regions there really isn't a question. -- Solipsist 09:25, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong support - Na h-Eileanan Siar is it's name! In English! 86.142.215.73 11:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

You may be interested to know that the former web address www.w-isles.gov.uk no longer works. It has been replaced by www.cne-siar.gov.uk Kris_sw 20:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Although the motto "Ag Obair Còmhla Airson Nan Eilean" is translated to "Working Together For The Western Isles" at the bottom of every page of the website[1], and it commonly refers to the region as the Western Isles (e.g. "Community is an important part of life in the Western Isles..."[2] [3][4][5] etc.) Jll 00:26, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

It is worth reading Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places). Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. Although it does carry the caveat It is important to note that these are conventions, not rules written in stone. Jll 22:48, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

And from the same article:

  • Generally, use the official English name for the place and its type. - As discussed already, the official name in English is na h-Eileanan Siar.
  • Nota Bene: The testimony of locals and people familiar with the country should be considered above Google evidence. Google is very likely to have many results from news organizations and wire services. These remote reporters may be ignorant about local naming standards.

Kris_sw 02:05, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

And from the same article - It isn't clear to me that the section which you quote is that straighforward. It would at first seem to be in conflict with the summary of the convention at the top of the page, viz. Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, and what is actually done with Libya, East Germany, Egypt etc.

My reading of the complete section is that it is about using local conventions in disambiguating terms and administrative zones, i.e. use Auvergne (région) and Auvergne (province), rather than Auvergne (zone) because the French divide their country into régions rather than zones. It is confusing, but I think the title Follow local conventions and the examples give it away. The section starts:

Follow local conventions
There are several methods in common use for the form of place names. Usually, the shortest form is preferred. However, certain place names always have a disambiguating term as well.
Generally, use the official English name for the place and its type.
*Example: the country has "oblasts" and its government officially translates them as "area", "region", or "zone", then they should never be renamed "province" to conform to another country or some master schema.''
If there is not an official translation, then a general equivalent or obvious cognate should be used, until a better solution is found.
When there is any confusion, use "ShortName" or "ShortName Term" (capitalized) as appropriate, until locals or someone familiar with the country can offer a more correct version. Either form can easily be changed to a disambiguation page later.
Nota Bene: The testimony of locals and people familiar with the country should be considered above Google evidence. Google is very likely to have many results from news organizations and wire services. These remote reporters may be ignorant about local naming standards.

and then follows on with examples of the use of terms in administative regions, such as Moscow Oblast, District of Columbia, Province of Rome.

I think the two sentences However, certain place names always have a disambiguating term as well. and Generally, use the official English name for the place and its type. must be taken together. This section would apply if the proposal was to call it Na h-Eileanan Siar Unitary Authority.

Jll 23:10, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Given that bracketed titles can easily be hidden by adding | in the link, and the likelihood that those searching could be looking for the whole of the Highlands rather than the council area (note usual avoidance of plural in titles) or the geographical term, the disambiguation link from Highland seems entirely reasonable. ....dave souza, talk 11:07, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Solipsist, Na h-Eileanan an Iar is a parlimentary constituency, but Na h-Eileanan Siar is a council area. 86.142.215.73 11:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[6] an example of the BBC "using the Gaelic name", Solipsist. Kris_sw 11:26, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

No that is not really the BBC using it, that is a report on government statistics. I quite accept that the council there is trying to encourage the use of Gaelic names. However islanders that I know tend to regard this as the typical nuttiness of the council, suggesting that it shows how out of touch the council is. The caveats here are that most people everywhere tend to the think that their government and council are out of touch; no one much minds the council using Gaelic names; most islanders are proud of their Gaelic heritage even if they don't commonly use Gaelic themselves. It should also be noted (and I've checked this before) that most islanders don't commonly use the term 'Outer Hebrides', but only because there is rarely a need to talk about the group of islands as a whole - day in day out, they nearly always refer to specific islands by name.
Now if you really want to check the BBC's usage, compare Na h-Eileanan Siar : Outer Hebrides. That's 32:430, except that nearly all the pages including Na h-Eileanan Siar are actually pages written in Gaelic so it is actually more like 1:420. In other words Wikipedia:Use English. -- Solipsist 12:19, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

How is Comhairle pronounced?

Coarla or Corla.


[edit] Gaelic names

Was told to look at the talk page by a user reverting my correction of 'Steornabhagh' to 'Steòrnabhagh' and see nothing which in any way comments upon, or indeed stresses the validity, of misspelt Gaelic names. If the Gaelic names are going to be there, and there doesnt seem to be any doubt that they are, then they should be spelt correctly and the correct spelling Gaelic spelling of Stornoway is Steòrnabhagh, not Steornabhagh and the reversion of a corretly spelt non-English name to an incorrectly spelt non-English name (which is, in either case, provided alongside the correct English equivalent) on the basis that this is the English wikipedia is one of the stranger edits/reverts ive seen. siarach 19:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Sorry, my mistake - I thought that you had prioritised the Gaelic name over the English, which there is no consensus for, but now I see that you simply corrected a spelling mistake. Hope this clears things up, Warofdreams talk 19:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Ah i see, fair enough - i thought it had to be a misunderstanding of some sort.siarach 19:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Twinning

I've deleted the Twinning section because, as far as I can tell, the only evidence that the Western Isles are twinned with Pendleton, South Carolina is this list. All that shows is that the two communities are members of the unofficial organisation Sister Cities International. This is completely separate from any kind of formal twinning agreement between city authorities - for instance, Cambridge is officially twinned with Heidelberg and Szeged, but not, as the list would imply, with Cambridge, Massachusetts. -- Blisco 09:10, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, if it serves as any better proof, there is a big road-sign outside Stornoway to this effect (that it is twinned with Pendleton). I do believe however, that it is Stornoway, not the Western Isles, that the twinning refers to.
Xdamrtalk 14:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Ah, OK. You seem to be right, this West Highland Free Press article says that it's Stornoway that is twinned. As the info is already present in the Stornoway article, I've reverted. (Sorry for the abrupt edit summary, I did a popup-enabled revert by mistake!) -- Blisco 14:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anyone got the Gaelic?

Anyone got the Gaelic for In Gaelic or Gaelic version? I want to use it in a two item list, something like:
In English
In Gaelic
Laurel Bush 16:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC).

If it is for use on the English Wikipedia, it should really be written in English. That is to say, just 'In Gaelic'. It is also arguable that you shouldn't be adding non-English external links, especially where translated versions exist.(well actually its one of the guidelines, WP:EL). However, you could also use language icons such as {{en icon}} and {{gd icon}} - hmm, I thought those used to have little flag icons, perhaps not. You may also be interested in the Scots Gaelic version of Wikipedia. Look for the 'Gàidhlig' in the 'In other languages' on the left of the article page. -- Solipsist 17:06, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I was actually in two minds about the idea anyway. Comes of living somewhere various people seem to want or expect everything to be dual-language. Still wouldnt mind knowing how to do it. Laurel Bush 10:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Population statistics

The population statistics table contained an entry for 'Lewis and Harris'. I've added the individual figures for Lewis and Harris, based on the 2001 census figures cited in their respective articles. Unfortunately the figures don't add up to the right total. If someone has some definative statistics then these figures need to be verified.

Xdamrtalk 15:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The 19,000 figure is coorect for Lewis & Harris combined . See [7]. --JBellis 07:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Island Template

I have created a Template:Infobox Scottish island for use with Scottish islands which is based on the existing Template:Infobox Scotland place but which contains parameters which may be more useful for smaller islands which don't have their own police force or Lord Lieutenant. Comments are welcome on the associated talk page.

I have created it as a template for all Scottish islands and used an image of a longboat next to the Saltire to emphasise the difference with the Scotland place Template. The said image is called Image:McdonaldBoat.jpg. Before ancient foes of Clan Donald complain, I am assured by User:Calgacus that the proper name for this image is a 'Lymphad' and that its was actually purloined from the Russian wikipedia. He also points out that the same image appears for example at the bottom of Image:Norse-Gael_Warrior.PNG[8] and the Sinclair Orkney arms [9] [10] which suggests to me that the lymphad may be appropriate for all our isles whether they have a primarily Celtic or primarily Norse history. This note has been copied in various places including Talk:Orkney Talk:Shetland Talk:Hebrides Talk:Islands of the Clyde etc.

An example of the template may be found at:Flannan Isles

There is space for references. Groupings and population information are available at List of islands of Scotland the latter being based on the 2001 census. Area measurements for the 162 islands of 100 acres or more in size are available in Haswell-Smith, Hamish. (2004) The Scottish Islands. Edinburgh. Canongate. I'd be happy to pass the relevant numbers on if needed, although I doubt I am going to get around to listing all 162. There is more on this subject at Template talk:Infobox Scottish island. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Could someone who knows how to pronounce the Gaelic name put in an IPA transcription, please? — OwenBlacker 18:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Machair

What is the basis for saying a large part of the perimter is Machair? Based on my own obersation I would have said that it's on the west coastline only. --JBellis 18:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Innse Gall

Can whoever is changing the name continually be reminded that "na h-Innse Gall" means the Hebrides not just the Outer Hebrides. --MacRusgail 01:15, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 00:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Outer Hebrides → Western Isles — I know we had the debate previously about the page name but I feel this should be moved to Western Isles per WP:COMMONNAME, and Western Isles is already a redirect to the page —Barryob Vigeur de dessus 17:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Oppose Outer Hebrides is a more precise name. Western Isles might need disambiguation. -- Inge (talk) 18:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose The "Western Isles"? These are currently EAST of me. Perhaps Western Isles of Scotland. -- 132.205.99.122 (talk) 19:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Amazing - you must be a serviceman on St Kilda. How are things there? Ben MacDuiTalk/Walk
If you are in say Canada (like 132.205.99.122) then the Hebrides are to the east...Inge (talk) 23:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I see that ironic remarks don't work too well. With all due respect this a lamentable reason to oppose, as a quick Google search will indicate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ben MacDui (talk • contribs) 21:45, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose I would tend to associate 'Western Isles' with the local authority, and 'Outer Hebrides' with the geographical entity, although the longer the latter is in place the more they seem more-or-less synonymous. It's not broken - why try to fix it? Ben MacDuiTalk/Walk 19:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose Outer Hebrides is the traditional English name for the geographical entity. I observe that the local authority is officially Comhairle nan Eilean Siar, and the article claims this is common usage for it even among local English-speakers; so Western Isles may be falling between two stools. Septentrionalis PMAnderson
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.