Talk:Oud

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Oud article.
Article policies
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

by all other accounts, the lute is not the predecessor but the European version of the oud.

Contents

[edit] Oud page getting unwieldy...

Friends, there are millions of people in the world who play oud. There are also hundreds of makers. We need to split off List_of_Oud_Players and List_of_Oud_Makers, and get everyone's self-promotional affiliate links off of the main oud page. eliotbates (talk) 10:33, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Origins of the oud

The oud can not have been derived from the kopuz, as the kopuz was a long-necked lute with a bowl resonator carved out of a single piece of wood, with frets similar in form to the baglama-saz (and therefore nothing like the oud). Cinuçen's comments need to be read not as a well-researched history of the oud's origins, but instead as part of a standard mode of Turkish cultural historiography which ascribes Central Asian origins to every thing that currently exists in Anatolia. Cinuçen, to his credit, didn't persist with this origins theory later in life. eliotbates (talk) 09:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

In the "History" section, the first and last sentences of the entire section completely contradict each other. The first line informs that the lute and oud in fact descend from a common ancestor, while the last sentence claims that the oud was brought to Europe where it developed into the lute. Not being, hmm, anyone scholarly in particular, I can't really figure out which is correct. But both? No way. ~ john1987

Sorry to say oud to lute lineage is plain wrong. The real picture is a lot more complex.There were European lutes predating oud.Galassi 16:19, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the oud may have come before the lute

It may have been brought brought to Europe by the occupying Muslims or by Crusaders returning from the Middle East. When European musicians began to develop polyphonic techniques, they adapted it to the demands of harmony.

Instruments that organologists would define as lutes existed in Egypt in the time of the Pharaohs. A well-defined musical culture was clearly a part of the Greek empire in the time of Alexander the Great, and plucked string instruments were clearly a part of it. Ancestors of the p'i-p'a and biwa were in use in China and Japan several thousand years ago.

The guitar is not derived from the lute nor from the oud. The guitar evolved independently out of instruments having a waist, the vielle, viola and vihuela.

[edit] Origin of the name Oud?

The Lute wikipedia article says "The words 'lute' and 'oud' are both believed derived from Arabic al‘ud, 'the wood', a derogatory term used by early Muslims for musical instruments of different types, because any instrumental music was proscribed for them."

But here it says, "its name is derived from the Arabic word al-oud 'the wood', which is probably the name of tree from which the oud was made." Oud is also the name of the agarwood or aloewood tree, but I can only find one article saying this was the tree used for the instrument.

It does not seem likely al-oud is both a derogatory name for any wooden musical instrument, and the name for the expensive aloewood. Unless it started as a respectful name for the wood, which later became derogatory (as Arabic predates Islam)? Or else is the tree oud unrelated to the instrument oud?

My main question is whether the oud instrument takes its name from the oud tree?


Ian100 19:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I've added a question to the Talk:Lute page asking for a citation/source for the claim that al`ud is a deragatory term. I've read hundreds of articles on the source of the oud, and I've never seen this claim mentioned before.

jeff 06:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Richard Hagopian is an oud player

84.154.59.165 made an edit removing Richard Haggopian's name from the list of oudists, claiming that he plays the duduk, not the oud. He may play the duduk, but he's definitely an oudist. Check out his Wikipedia page or check out this Web site that talks about him: [1]. I've reverted the edits to add him back to the list.

jeff 14:43, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oudi Hrant image is probably copyright protected

The image of Oudi Hrant that was just added to the page is a copy of the CD liner from one of the collections of his recordings released by the Tranditional Crossroads label. Unless they have given permission to post it here, it should probably be removed.

[edit] I think some significant changes need to be made...

1) Tunings. The most common tuning taught in conservatories in Turkey today, the one developed by Cinuçen Tanrıkorur and used often by Necati Çelik, Yurdal Tokcan and Mehmet Bitmez (B F# B E A D) is not listed, and the naming of the various tuning systems currently listed are not based on any local (Turkish) source. There are many other tuning "systems," however, which have developed - I think a more general description of tuning (the lowest 2 strings are very flexible in their tuning, depending on the makams that will be performed, while upper choruses are always tuned B E A D) would be more accurate.

2) Under "Regional Types," I believe an Iraqi type oud should be added. They use a fundamentally different bridge construction, and Iraqi ouds today typically have 13 strings and a different tuning system.

3) A section on electric oud should be written.

The only model of electric oud that's in regular production that I know of are those made by Viken Najarian [2]. Are there other models that are widely distributed? Instead of just strictly electric ouds, I think a broader article that also discusses pickups and other forms of amplification might be in order
Yes, in Turkey there are several makers of varying styles of electric ouds. Saadettin Sandı [3] (Istanbul), Haluk Eraydın (Aydın), and at least 2 other makers have current in-production makes of electric ouds. Before Viken Najaryan, in the US, John Bilezikjian had designed an electric oud that he performed both in traditional Armenian and in more Western rock contexts (personal communication, 1993). There is also a 30+ year tradition of electrifying Anatolian instruments, most notably the 'ud and the various members of the saz family, which has led to numerous artist-created one-off instruments.


4) A section on current geographic distribution would be welcome. The way the article stands, only in the Middle East is there a current living oud performance tradition. However, the oud is important in Morocco, Kenya, Sudan, Malaysia, and other countries not typically considered part of the Middle East.

--85.106.206.211 23:34, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Jeff Martin isn't really a "famous oud player"

I'm removing Jeff Martin from the list of famous oud players. While he may play the oud occasionally, he's definitely more known as a guitarist and a songwriter. In fact, if you look at the details of his latest recording on his web site [4], you'll see he doesn't even play the oud on it. I suggest that we limit the list to those people who are actually known as professional oudists. jeff.lopez-stuit 18:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] New Picture on the page is probably not an oud

I don't think the new picture on the page is an oud. It appears to be a lavta. To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a "fretted oud". Is there any source information for this picture that can prove what it really is?

That oud was originally fretted but lost frets eventually is STANDARD SCHOLARSHIP.Galassi 19:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Can you please provide a source for this standard scholarship? Here for instance [5] , is a good history, adapted from the New Grove Dictionary of Music, that only makes reference to fretted models appearing on some ouds in the 1900's. Please provide us with a source. jeff.lopez-stuit 20:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The image comes from 12th cent. Iberoarabic Ms. explicitly stating that that oud was fretted. Ask any scholar in the field of medieval lutes and ouds. And Eckhard Neubauer certainly agrees. Eckhard Neubauer, "Der Bau der Laute und ihre Besaitung nach arabischen, persischen und türkischen Quellen des 9. bis 15. Jahrhunderts," Zeitschrift für Geschichte der arabisch-islamischen Wissenschaften, vol. 8 (1993)Galassi 21:12, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merging Required

The Oud is the same thing as the Lute, but that's just its Arabic tranliteration in English. I'd suggest it should somehow merge with the Lute article asap.

This is absolutely untrue. The two instruments have different structures, different playing methods, and a completely different repertoire. Just because the names of the instruments may appear to be transliterated (which is itself a questionable assertion), doesn’t make them the same instrument.jeff.lopez-stuit 23:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect article

I think that according to the oud history, evidence of the oud was found in the ancient Egyptian times much before the histroy the article mentions.

Also, there is no mention of the electric oud or how it originiated. I think this article is lacking a lot of important features and would like any possible help to refine it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by A J Damen (talk • contribs) 13:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Tunings

All the descriptions of the tunings need to include "highest to lowest" or "lowest to highest" to avoid confusion. Different musicians order the strings differently in their minds; some think of the highest-pitched string as the "first" string, while some think of the lowest at the "first." Dyfsunctional 16:17, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish "alaud"

The article says...

[..]The name of this instrument is luth in French, Laute in German, liuto in Italian, luit in Dutch, (all beginning with the letter "L") and alaud in Spanish.

But I, as a native speaker, know not of such a word as alaud in Spanish, and the Diccionario de la Real Academia doesn't either.[6][7]

I didn't change the article because I don't understand wether the text is referring to the lute, which is called laúd in Spanish, or to the Oud, for which I don't know the name in Spanish.

Could somebody clarify this please? --cholo 22:47, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it refers to lute there. Could it have been called that way among some other Spanish speaking people (some dialect) now or centuries ago? DenizTC 23:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
laud, in southern spain, refers to a particular instrument much more similar to a mandolin. There are 4 sizes of laud instruments. In Granada and Sevilla I heard the term "oud" used (I don't know how it was spelled) and not laud eliotbates (talk) 12:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)