Talk:Otaku

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[edit] MOE

Can someone please make a refer-to page useing Moe & than write a bit explaining the difference & similarities of Moe & Otaku? Or even give Moe it's own page?

egirl630 on Veoh says: "moe- A Japanese slang term (ironically, first employed by otaku) used to refer to the fetish for or sexual attraction to idealized people, usually a fictional perfect young girl. Since then, moé has come to be used as a general term for a hobby, mania or fetish (non-sexual or otherwise). This is contrasted with otaku, which would be taking the specific hobby, mania or fetish."

It also seems to refur for favorite types of pairing fetishes, & the more tabboo they are, the more desireable they are. Student-teacher, bodyguard-bocchama, twin brothers, human-mazoku, etc.

[edit] Etymology Update

I quickly updated the Etymology section based on some comments by Yuka Minakawa made in Peter Carey's book wrong about Japan please check them out, and let me know if anything should be changed or if more information is needed. Edit: Note I used She when refering to Minakawa. Yuka is male though transgendered, if you think 'he' would be more appropriate feel free to edit it though I think it would be disrespectful to Ms Minakawa. Prince Rei 18:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Otaku as a marketing term

I'm rather surprized that this article makes no mention of the current use of the term Otaku in US marketing circles. It is taken to mean "one who is passionate about a product", usually in reference to viral marketing.

There's a really interesting story about how marketing author Seth Godin introduced the term to the marketing industry, I believe in his book "Purple Cow", with the misconception that Otaku was the passion rather than the person. So at first he was speaking of "having an otaku" for something, but later realized his mistake and adopted the more accurate meaning.

Adding a reference to this meaning would call for a major restructuring of the first paragraphs of the article, so I felt I should test the waters here before making any edits. Thoughts? --24.147.224.18 04:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese loan words

I think Japanese loan words need it's separate page.

Maybe. But would "Loanwords from language X in the English language" articles be worthy of creating? I ask this because it seems like a majority of words in any language is a loanword, so such a task may be too daunting. Although I think it is quite odd for "Japanese loanwords" to be a subcategory of this article. Soysauce, tofu, tycoon, and rikshas, and karaoke are examples of Japanese loanwords, and they are not related to otakus. I also see a problem with what qualifications a word would need to fit in this list. An otaku in an English speaking country is pretty much an enthusiast of Japanese culture, hence such a person could grab any Japanese word and use it. In that case, should we have a list of all words in the Japanese language? See also: gairaigo. --68.77.117.197 01:22, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Er..how did you figure 'soy sauce', 'tycoon', and 'rikshas' were Japanese words? They aren't even in Japanese syllables. Oct 31, 05

I think for here, we can stick with loanwords that are part of otaku jargon. --Paul Soth 01:51, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Couldn't an otaku use any word in the Japanese language? In which case, wouldn't the entire Japanese language be considered as part of otaku jargon? If the qualification is simply "any Japanese word an otaku likes," then the criteria is a very subjective one. Basically a quality control issue - a similar issue plagues Jargon file, IMHO. --68.77.117.197 02:16, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Right, before we split hairs any more on the issue, let's figure out the boundaries then. Otakuisms are mostly words that are used for flavor (such as simple words or exclamations: "Hai,""Baka,""Sugoi"), terms for items and subjects that do not have proper equivalents in English, or are used to specify that the origins or style of an object or subject is Japanese in nature. For instance, when the word "manga" is used, it is inferred that the speaker is referring to comics from Japan, or the term "manga style," meaning that a comic borrows style and technique from Japanese comics. --Paul Soth 04:16, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Don't misspell its. lysdexia 13:50, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Er..how did you figure 'soy sauce', 'tycoon', and 'rikshas' were Japanese words? They aren't even in Japanese syllables. that's because they're older loanwords and the writing was modified to be more english at the time they entered the language. soy sauce comes from shoyu (the sauce was added), tycoon comes from taikun (by now something of an archaic word in the japanese language, meaning literaly grand lord, i.e. somebody extremely wealthy) and rickshaw is an abreviation of jinrikisha, literaly man-powered vehicle. 213.172.246.86 02:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I've moved this section to its own article: List of common loan words in non-Japanese otaku culture. --nihon 22:40, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Otaku etymology

The previous editor dropped all of the following. I would have just dropped the last 2 sentences. Is the text incorrect or incomplete in some way? What's there now doesn't look any more complete. --Koyaanis Qatsi

Otaku are a Japanese cultural subgroup. The name has something of a double meaning. Outside of Japan, the word implies particular obsessiveness or geekiness. In Japan, the word has connotations of creep or stalker, though it retains its roots in extreme obsession or geekiness. For a better understanding, watch Otaku no Video

I await your edits, Max :)

Well, the information that was present is essentially incorrect as it is more of an opinion. Otaku doesn't have a negative connonation as far as I'm concerned, and I've never really heard it used that way. But, as always, I could be wrong. --Jzcool

Some people even call themself Otaku and are proud of it. :) --Taw

Ok then. Just wondering. --Koyaanis Qatsi

Well, in Japan it would be bad to be called "otaku", so shouldn't we mention this? As I was told, it implies just serious obsessiveness. My Japanese friends have corrorated this. I think its kind of like "Baka", in the sense that westerners don't realize how different the word is used in the country of origin to how its translation is used here. --Alan D

corroborated lysdexia 13:50, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I wrote "American otaku culture" and someone changed it to "Otaku culture outside Japan". I chose that phrasing because I'm not familiar with the otaku culture (in the English sense of the word) outside of the USA. Can someone confirm that it's the same elsewhere? -- zw

Here's one of a household of two Canadian otaku telling you so :) - Montréalais

I added some information on the etymological history of the word, that I think clarifies the meaning of the bad connotations of the word. The paragraph ("The word is derived from ...") probably could be merged with the preceding paragraph. My primary source was [1] --hb

I've expanded (and, I think, corrected) the etymology, by removing the apparently spurious stuff about photographers - I can't find any references to support that, feel free to put it back if you can - and adding references to Nakamori Akio, who deserves some credit for apparently coining the word. My sources were the etymology in Sanseido's デイリー新語辞典 and the article on Nakamori at [2].

I think that the explanation is the best i've read yet. you might want to include references to the word mania as used in japan. frankly, making a lot of distinction between the varieties of non-japanese otaku useage is futile as it is, outside of japan, almost perfectly synonymous with geek, except by geeks who want to really emphasize that they are into manga and anime.

as far as the average response to the word in japan, i have had about 19 times out of 20 the following reaction/explanation:

"they wear black shirts, live at home until way longer than normal watching anime and reading manga and playing geimu, smell bad, are unkempt and often have pot bellies and carry around paper bags with books or manga inside."

honestly, this is the answer i got, while in japan, time after time. i think that's pretty empirically convincing that there is a bad connotation, even bordering on the stalker kind of theme. also, it should be pointed out that manga, if not anime and gaming, is a huge pastime among the general population that you could hardly call otaku, at least not in japan. Plasticlax

i'm not entirely convinced this proves anything. i speak the language fluently and have spent quite some time in japan as well, so i can confirm the word is not entirely neutral. however, if you are a foreigner in japan, then unless you show a great deal of knowledge of the culture AND are on extremely friendly terms with the people you speak with, most of them are likely to tell you whatever they figure will please you. a sort of stereotype-on-demand, if you will. (you might wanna do a little reading on nihonjinron for more - nihonjinron is not what i am talking about, but it does explain the mechanisms behind it) i would presume they simply asumed you had a negative stance on the subject and pretty much gave you a general description of a stereotype stalker/hikikomori/generally asocial person. you might as well have asked them if the sun was green.213.172.246.86 02:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Just thought I would chime in with an anecdote. I live in Japan, and am married to a Japanese national, and I can verify that the term has decidedly negative vibes. I'm not sure about it being immediately associated with stalker-esque behavior, but it is commonly used to denote someone as creepy. I'm reasonably certain that my spouse and friends haven't been feeding me a line for years.205.206.239.158 11:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Otaku terminology and loanwords

Well, in any event, otaku is becoming more and more of a loanword itself in American English, and like most loanwords, the original meaning gets skewered or flat out ignored. The way I think, if you're going to argue with people that they're not using the word otaku 'right,' you might as well be chastising people who use the word "kamikaze" refer to suicide attackers, and not in reference to a divine wind.

In any event, perhaps it might be worth a mention the struggle between those who are proud to be fans against the cynical, overly self-conscious fans who endlessly argue about if the word should retain the negative connotations in its use in English.

Also, there's a article for Fanji, which repeats some of the stuff here. Honestly, I've never even seen that term before. Everyone I've ever come across calls them "otakuisms." --Paul Soth 03:26, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Agreed, as I was the one who wrote the "otakuisms" part (though more often I've heard "otakuese"); still, "otakuisms" is more common than "fanji", which sounds like a neologism.--Mitsukai 17:45, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

What's with all the annoying -u endings? And does hentai really mean transformation (a noun) and still all of those adjectives? lysdexia 13:50, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, Japanese only has 5 vowels, and with the exception of n, every word will end in a vowel, so expect a lot of u endings. Hentai means literally a "changed form," or basically, a perversion of the original form, hence the meaning. Dracil 02:38, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Akibake -> Akiba-kei (アキバ系)--Outis 12:14, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

_______________________________________________________________

Being obsessed with cartoons is just as bad as being obsessed with comics, videogames, celebrities, etc. You forget about yourself and start worshiping things that alienate you. You value yourself for what you posess of any given thing that is the object of your obsession. So, it's like Morgoth wanting to posess "Light". The desire destroys you and everything that's beautiful inside of you dies.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

i first came across the term in william gibsons idoru where he defines it as (im paraphrasing as i no longer have the book) some sort of technofetishist with an anarchicical bent, im wondering if maybe the origin was with electronics or computers instead of comics? (unlikely since comics were around long before i know) although its possible he was just wrong or imagined that the meaning would shift to be techno centric in the future. Also in the cyberpunk rpg it is used for children who live in the matrix, though this is probably taken straight from gibson, though it may predate idoru, im not sure.

so im wondering if a japanese person can clarify whether the term had or has technological implications (above others). Also maybe the cyberpunk definition as such is worthy of a mention.

It came out of photography circles, which is already discussed in the article. And no, the use of the word in Shadowrun doesn't need to be mentioned. It's too much of a minor detail. --Paul Soth 04:47, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Female otaku in Japan - "Otome"

I came across this article on the Mainichi Daily News website: http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/waiwai/archive/news/2005/06/20050620p2g00m0dm001000c.html

The gist of it is that female otaku, called "fujo" (腐女; "rotten girl"), are growing in numbers, but they're developing as a separate subculture from their male counterparts, and their main shopping district is Ikebukuro rather than Akihabara.

The term 'fujo' refers specifically to girls who have become fangirls via a man giving her romantic comics. The Japanese word for female otaku in general is 'otome.'

Otome explination: http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/waiwai/news/20060127p2g00m0dm016000c.html

Female otaku, a term now made redundant by otome, which roughly translates as "maiden," have created "Otome Road,"...

Fujo explination: http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/waiwai/archive/news/2005/06/20050620p2g00m0dm001000c.html

... girls who men have seduced through such stratagems [giving romantic manga] are referred to as "fujo," literally a spoiled or rotten girl.

Otome should be linked, and an article created to clarify otaku is male, otome is female.

Phresno 01:57, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

While female otaku are probably forming a subculture of their own, separate from male otaku (which is sad, really), I don't think the term "otome" is being widely used to refer to them. The only reference is Otome Road and the above article, but I think that in any case the term "fujo" is more widespread, and even then "female otaku" is really what is used mostly.

Unless I see more evidence of "otome" having been the primary term to refer to female otaku in Japan for at least the past year, I vote for its elimination from the article. —This unsigned comment was added by 200.84.207.64 (talk • contribs) .

I agree. Aside from Otome Road and Otome-kei this word just isn't used. Look over at Japanese wikipedia for crying out loud, it's not there. "Otome-kei" is interchangable with "Jyosei-muke". I haven't seen the word "otome" itself used to refer to female otaku. If our only source is a waiwai article, this seems like something we should drop... - Narfness 08:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] looking for term

does anyone know the term for extreme otakus? they never leave the house (except to buy stuff) and spend all day at the computer/internet?

I believe the term you're looking for is "Hikikomori"--Mitsukai 04:02, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, that was exactly what I was looking for! Man, I think that applies not exclusively to otakus, but didn't know where to ask for this info.

Thanks again

I really don't think it can be stressed enough that there are MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR stigmas associated with the word otaku in Japan and even in America. It's almost as if the Paul Soth and other people who have been modifying the article seem to want to cover that up and not be honest about thier own fandom.--taiki

I don't think they are overlooking anything, or trying to cover up anything. The article indicates there is a stigma, but since the main focus of the article is on otaku outside of Japan, there really doesn't need to be more than a small explanation of how it is used in Japan. There is only so much you can say about the stigma in Japan, too, without getting too far off track. As for it being "thier [sic] own fandom", it seems like you would fit into the category as well or else you wouldn't be here tossing in your two cents on the article. ;-) --nihon 07:50, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I think otaku is a classical example of a nl:geuzennaam. I don't know if there's an English word for that though. Shinobu 18:20, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

The English word for that is pejorative. I had a friend who speaks Dutch tell me that. (^_^) --nihon 18:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I thought pejorative just meant scheldwoord or scheldnaam - indeed only a very small part of the article seems to be about geuzennamen. I think the closest I can come up with is "pejorative which is not considered pejorative anymore by the people involved". Yankee would qualify, but zipperhead wouldn't, even though they're both pejoratives. Shinobu 02:20, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

The term you're looking for (though not exact) is "dysphemism treadmill" (see the last sentence of Euphemism treadmill for an explanation).--Mitsukai 19:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

I just re-added a site (otakubooty.com) to external links. It was removed by an anonymous user, with no explanation. I'm afraid that the decision of what to include in the external links section could become contentious, expecially with commercial considerations involved (sites recieve traffic from being listed in a popular wiki entry's external links). Therefore, I think it makes sense for users to explain their reasoning for why a site should or shouldn't be included. At the very least, that will give us a discussion, rather than a revert war.

OtakuBooty deserves inclusion because it gives an unvarnished look at western(mostly american) otaku. Their culture, their language, their behavior, is all featured in a very raw sense. A lot of the external links are about anime and other things that otaku like, otakubooty gives information about the otaku themselves.--Spyrral 19:27, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I broke down and NPOV'd this article.

The repeated editting of this article does not conform to the neutrality that Wikipedia attempts to maintain. There is nothing here that states the negative connotation that Otaku means, and links that have been added that are negative towards Otaku have been repeatedly removed.taiki

Maybe there needs to be a firmer line drawn between the Wotaku and the Otaku. Perhaps rewriting the article along those lines?--み使い Mitsukai 04:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

No. Since most people will look up "otaku" and all of the information pertaining to this term should be in this entry. -- taiki

Which, if you'll notice, is exactly what I said. The fact that there's beginning be some semantic drift between the two variations allows us to be able to explain both the history and the semantic drift between the two "otaku cultures".--み使い Mitsukai 05:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

After re-reading the main article, I have to very strongly disagree with your comments about the article not presenting the negative connotations of "otaku". There are whole paragraphs devoted to these negative connotations, and the articel goes into reasonable depth about these connotations in Japan and elsewhere. Therefore, I am removing the POV template from the main article. --nihon 02:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of statement

I just pulled the following line from the article:

Additionally, otaku can mean a European or American who is interested in Japanese women, usually dating more than one at a time.

First I've ever heard of this referred to as otaku. Usually that type of person is referred to as "Asian fetish", "Tokyo Joe" (which has nothing to do with the movie), "Peking Tom", or (if you want to get really nasty about it) "Wapanese". First time I've heard of it as "otaku". Anyone else got an opinion on that one?--み使い Mitsukai 14:10, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm in the same boat as you: I've never heard it used that way, either. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 18:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

No, that's not otaku. That's the yellow fever. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by All That Is Holy (talk • contribs) 10:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Image in English/Internationally section

An individual, namely BrookieDragon, and an anon. or two, a vast percentage of whose contributions on Wikipedia seem to be currently based primarily on adding two images of some non-notable individual in the Otaku and Japanophile articles respectively (the latter of which was accurately resolved by Wikipedia administrators and the image in the latter article removed after the discussion). A non-notable image of some unknown individual qualifies as vanity, and does not qualify in anyway as supposedly an "example" of "international influence of 'otaku' culture", which is an absolutely absurd claim for all to see. Whenever these images in question are correctly removed from the article by other users, BrookieDragon constantly tries to add them back, even after a similar image of the same individual was removed from the other article, as mentioned earlier. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and is not a platform for which vain and badly-taken images of non-notable individuals can herald themselves a claim for fame, and therefore I feel that this image should be removed as soon as possible from this article. ~ Ganryuu (talk) 06:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Once again...

I am unaware of what issues you have personally taken to destroy random Japanese articles on Wikipedia, but it is on the verge of harassment. I hate to bring personal values into a discussion here, but you have done nothing but throw fits while inappropriately vandalizing articles while falsely labeling things as breaking Wiki rules.

No administration action was taken against the Japanophile picture as you have claimed. The picture was finally removed after people got tired of trying to maintain the article as you personally removed the picture countless times when people supported it. There where several people that voiced there opinion in support of the picture, and at the point that you realized that several people where against you in the matter, you began this game of removing the picture every time you logged on and declaring it vain. I can go back into the discussion of the articles, and look at the history of the picture and see where people edited the picture’s description text to fix grammar, and I clearly see the support.

Now you come here. The Otaku picture has been on this article for several months. It has been accepted here and been well established. In efforts for you to carry your battle out against either me, the original poster of this picture, or the person in the picture… you now come to disturb this article for the only purpose of your own personal jealousy/idealology.

On to the picture itself. You claim this picture as not notable and vain.

Let’s hit this one step at a time

Vain?:

“Vanity information is considered to be any information that was placed in any Wikipedia article that might create an apparent conflict of interest,”

This picture in no one disrupts the validity of this article. In effect, it is almost a real life translation of the anime picture at the top of the page, which has been accepted for a major part of the life of this word on Wiki. This picture also talks about a foreign (non Japanese) example of Otaku. This directly fits into the English/Internationally section, which starts off with this sentence. “The word is a loanword from the Japanese language, but in the English/international sense it is used to refer specifically to a fan of anime and manga, though it can sometimes refer to any "geek," in general.” This picture fits the description and shows an English person filling the profile.

Posted by the author to represent themselves?

From Wiki Word Vain: “meaning any material that presents the appearance of being intended to in any way promote the personal notoriety of the author”

I am not the original author of this picture. I am just out to protect other people’s interest from being voided out intellectual supremist.

Non - Notable? Your whole argument for removing this picture is that you do not think it is credible enough of a source. From previous discussions with you on the Japanophile picture, you have made your opinion out to be that if it does not have a previous copyright from a published book/encyclopedia, then it is not good enough for you.

Might I direct you to just a few of the thousands of other Wiki articles that have pictures from users that are used “by example.” Here are a few: Hang Gliding , Racquetball , Cheerleading. That comes from about 20 seconds of searching random articles on Wiki. Also, might I remind you that there where a few people on the Japanophile article who directly said they remember the person from this picture from a decently popular web blog a few years back, as well as one person saying he was a common entertainer in Anime conventions in the Southwest United States.

People keep telling you the validly of the picture, the appropriateness of the picture, and you come back and say there is no proof and remove. Your actions are verging on the extreme and I’m sure some people would appreciate the peace of this article to be allowed to continue as it did for the past 2 months with the picture as part of the article. I will be sending messages to a few of the commenters on the Japanophile picture becuase I'm sure their comments would be constructive too.

--BrookieDragon 19:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I have never understood the reasoning for including the images: they just seemed pointless, and do not contribute anything. A couple of pictures of nobodies posing do not make meaningful encyclopedia content. I have enough anime DVDs and VHSs to build a crusader castle with, so should I pile them up, sit on top, and add a photo of that to this article? No! If I were, say, one of the founders of GAINAX (all famous, notable otaku), then perhaps a photo of me would be relevant for this article, but since I was not even interviewed for Otaku no Video, I guess I am not important enough: same goes for the those photos you insist on including. The images contribute abolutely nothing, and do not appear to have any relevancy to the topic. Unless a substantiated argument to why they should be there can be provided, they should be removed and not restored again.

I just read over the Japanophile dicussion on this topic too, and found it very interesting. Most of the people who want those photos had not contributed before, or since, that discussion. They had also not contributed in any way other than restoring the image or commenting on keeping it. I believe that speaks volumes on its own. Elric of Grans 00:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Very well said, Elric of Grans, your points are straight on. That indeed is a revealing factor which I, and I'm sure many others, too had noticed earlier. The majority of contributions by these usernames seem to completely obsessed with adding two badly-taken and vain images of some non-notable individual to Wikipedia articles, and I also agree that these images do nothing but degrade the article's encyclopedic standard to an absurd degree. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a platform for some absurd, badly-taken, non-relevant images of non-notable individuals to herald themselves a supposed claim to fame. ~ Ganryuu 06:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh the joys of dealing with Ganryuu again. You seem to be making a name for yourself as one who thinks his opinion is far superior to that of the Wikipedia community. It astounds me that you can keep up for so long yelling that something is vain and not important when you have had probably a half dozen or more people tell you otherwise. This just seems to spur you to one of your now legendary tantrums where you just revert changes constantly against the will of the community.

Here is something for you. Wikipedia is made by many people. Not just you. Your opinion is not god here. The simple fact is that, from the looks of this, the Otaku picture has been here for quite some time. You coming in here and initially deleting it without any kind of discussion is against the very purpose of what Wiki is trying to do to build information database that people work together on. And when you do try to discuss, you say the same things you've ranted about for the past months, "vain, non-notable." How many times must you be told otherwise? The ability to change articles on Wiki is for the purpose of people to decide what is good and bad, not you to hold your own personal battles against a picture...who your only true purpose against is you just don't like it, or maybe a spot of jealousy as mentioned before?

And for Elric, trying to denounce people, such as me, as a limited poster is shameful. I've been editing on Wiki for years under an IP address. I just have never ran accross a person so arrogant as Gan as to completely ignore anything said from a non-username user, or for him to delete any change from an IP address user without even looking at its contents. Thus, I now have this name that I have to log on just for the purposes of getting him to look past his own stubborn thoughts.

And by the way Elric, the fact that the picture is not of you is not a reason for removal of an established Wiki reference. That, and using little bit of Gan's diction here, is vain. The picture does help this article as much as any other wiki picture does. It stays in my book.

--Getlow 15:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of the vanity rulings from Wiki are to prevent exactly what your saying, Elric of Grans. Basically they don't want people taking pictures of themselves or friends and posting it on Wikipedia as credible source. What your complaining about not doing, is exactly what your not supposed to do. Just because someone else has others that are willing to stand by their credibilty, and decide to use the picture as as a reference, is no reason to hate because it is not something you can do. --BrookieDragon 01:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not know whether you have somehow miraculously missed my point, or are intentionally twisting my words, but either way you fail to make an argument, and come off as an idiot in doing so. The picture you insist on including is a meaningless snapshot of some nobody which fails to make any meaningful contribution to the article. It would be better replaced with a screenshot of Craig York in Otaku no Video (as 'Shon Hernandez') as an image of a Western otaku, as an example. I have no desire to have my photo included – I am already too recognised for my liking as it is. My point was simply that this photo is quite possibly less notable than a photo of myself, and I am not worth including (this should be quite obvious from my original message if you read past the first three sentances). Elric of Grans 23:34, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

The question that needs to be asked is if otaku are a subject matter that require an image to illustrate them. A cheerleader has a very regular appearance, thus an image will do great justice to the cheerleader image. Does an otaku have such a strong, recognizable image? I could describe exactly what they look like in Akihabara; backpack, flannel shirt and rolled khaki pants, thick glasses and forward inclined stance. An image illustrating this would present a stereotype. If such a stereotype exists outside of Japan, then what is it? Can you sum it up in an image? freshofftheufo ΓΛĿЌ 18:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Obsession

Isn't being an otaku being obsessed with Japanese stuff? Like Japanese pencils, Japanese erasers, Japanese pencil cases, or Japanese anime? "Otaku" is pretty funny considering how many American and Chinese students at my school are like this. Good friend100 22:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

then you would call then japanophiles.Angelofdeath275 05:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Otakus:those obnoxious people who dip into their very limited Japanese words into every conversation becauese cartoons are a good enough reason to want to be Japanese.

Yes, I'me very biased. An otaku=anime/manga. Japanophile might include a variety of other things, it's history, people, music, etc. You might say "otaku" is a sub division of it all.EAB 04:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The picture of the "unkemp male"

Personally, I think this is a rather biased view of otakus. Some otaku's might be overweight, but some arent. Some might me unkemp, but some aren't. Trust me, I know some. And does the person in the picture know he's on Wikipedia? Unless he gave permission to have it posted and used in a negative fashion, it is up for deletion.

Added: ...Aaaand I just noticed this was argued about above. But still, I dont think it's justified. Blacklist 07:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I happen to know the folks who made the original picture. I'm sure they'd be cool with it.

-He Who Has No Name and Does Not Forgive.

Anonymous?

[edit] Puzzled as to the missing reason why RV often occurs

The most rampant ones are the deletion of an section (otakuism) and the alternatived meanings of otakus, whenever the elements of "sociology" and "Dr." are introduced. Is there any peopel find the deleted item too difficutl to read because of unfamiliarity? The doers of deletion simply does not realize that what the URL linked are actually sources

Hkcbgcs 16:16, 1 Sept 2006 (UTC)

A blog is not a reliable source. If the good Doctor presents information in a peer-reviewed academic journal, then that should be cited rather than his blog. --Interiot 07:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions

In my opinion, this article could use a lot of TLC:

It seems that many details in this article may need to be sourced using <ref> </ref> tags.
There are many different definitions/usages of otaku sprinkled throughout the text. I think these could be moved to the initial section, so that the reader gets a quick orientation on the various uses.
Overall organization may need some work. Perhaps the Otaku Murders deserve their own section, since this event was so seminal in the public perception of otaku. There is also stuff in the Etymology section rightfully belongs in the separate Otaku Murders section.
I'm not sure that Japanese loanwords in general deserve their own section in this article. I suggest deleting this section.

If no one objects, I'll try to implement my suggestions bit by bit over time. Ling.Nut 16:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You have cleaned up the true history occured in Japan ccording to your own standard of preference (If fact, people who act RV with derogatory comments are qutie wanton, making the information transfer as imcomplete as they like), so I could say nothing but to notice you that please think twice before you do any cleaning-up. If such henomenon occures agian and again, I consider quiting this uncontrolled wikipedia and publish my second-hand research article via bookstore as an altnerative solution. Hkcbgcs 05:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Hkcbgcs, I haven't deleted anything. I haven't changed anything according to any preference of Japanese history. I did not remove any content. The main thing I did was polish the English; I also added some information about the Otaku Murders. Please look carefully at the edits & you'll see that I have done no damage to the content as it stands now.

I am trying to help you; perhaps others are trying as well. You should understand that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia made by everyone; everyone can contribute. It seems you are unhappy with the situation. I saw your personal page when this article was first posted; you felt you were the victim of racism because of other peoples' rvs... I do not know whether this situation warrants a Requests for comment... I am sorry that you are generally unhappy with the way things have gone. What can I do to help you? How can a compromise or agreement be reached between you (the original author) and others who contribute? Please try to be patient with all of us as we work through this problem. We are dealing with at least two different languages, cultures, etc. Moreover, many people love anime-related topics, and are eager to help. Cheers --Ling.Nut 23:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

–==Bつまり、山などに火山灰が降り積もっても、ミミズや自然の力が植物が育つ土壌に戻していることらしいのだが・・・211.9.101.72 06:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)eginning an edit== I've begun tightening up the article, and have completed the intro and the Etymology section. I'll be moving on to the others tomorrow. I also created a brief article about Akio Nakamori. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English/Internationally

Although it's obvious there are some people on the internet and anime conventions who like to refer to themself as otaku, I don't see any citation in the article for the English/International section. It's nothing major but I see a problem with the use of the word loanword in the article, since as far as I know otaku isn't a defined word in the dictionary, it isn't an English word officially. This means it is a foreign word and would take the meaning it has in a Japanese dictionary. My next problem would be alot of stuff that has no citation in the English/Internationally section, and a possible NPOV. There are many young people who refer to themselves as Otakus with a sense of pride, and have no sign of overtly obsessive behavior as often associated with the term. These range from perfectly fine-acting 12 year olds to even the elderly. As certain activities are becoming easier to accept, anyone can be an Otaku, from your stereotypical lonely teen to even pop stars and celebrities. This can be compared to the rise in popularity of video games, which were once considered a geek actitivity. Now, many people often admit to being called "game freaks" without being looked down upon, as can be seen in many popular television shows such as MTV's Cribs where celebrities would often showcase their vast videos game libraries. This is a matter of opinion as far as I can tell and since there is no reference, you can't prove it. There isn't any age statistic for otaku, and there isn't any real proof that "certain activities" are becoming more accepted. I don't know what you would officially do to it, but I'd say edit out the whole paragraph.--Ninja 01:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a very slow moving article. I'll just go a head and edit it out. If anyone objects, just remember, I documented in the talk page.--Ninja 04:40, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I deleted a phrase from "In English/Internationally" that contradicts the rest of the section: how can one write that "'Otaku' has also been used to describe anyone who has a strong love for anime and manga without the negative connotations." if the paragraph above states the same thing, and adding the fact that the label "otaku" still has negative connotations among fans? That's nonsense. JoshuaCrow 16:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Concerning the 'Typical_Otaku.jpg' image

Over the past couple days, the Typical Otaku image has been added, removed, and added again. Here's a simple solution that bypasses the debate about its correctness. As the image is copyrighted by http://www.catsonmars.com/, it may or may not be fair use for commentary about that specific website -- the site itself. It's clearly not fair use when copyrighted content from a site is used as an illustration to this article, and so should not be included here.Tofof 20:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] maniakku / mania

Does anyone have any evidence that this came from Spanish as the article states? It seems much more likely that it came from the English words manicac / mania; I don't speak Japanese or anything but it seems like the "-u" suffix is on a lot of adopted words, and doesn't necessarily come from the Spanish "-o"... 68.20.18.144 12:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. My Kojien has both as stemming from English, and besides, the days when Japanese was loaning words from Spanish that aren't very specifically linked to the Spanish language/culture are long gone. TomorrowTime 18:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Otome

Why is Otome a redirect to Otaku? It just doesn't fly for me. - Sikon 17:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Otome can be slang for a female otaku. "Although stereotypically male, there are also many female otaku. A small alleyway of Tokyo's Higashi Ikebukuro district is known as "Otome Road" ("Maiden's road"). Otome Road's otome are a cross-section of Japanese womanhood, with ages ranging from teenage junior high school girls to housewives in their late 40s. A feature of the area is that there are so many bookstores devoted to comics and books filled with stories about homosexual men, in a genre called Boys' Love or BL. Dōjinshi, manga produced by amateur fans, dominate the shelves along Otome Road, with a significant chunk of the comics' stories about more famous anime that imitate, parody or develop on characters who are usually household names in Japan." -Malkinann 08:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

You're misunderstanding this. That alleyway is refered to as "Otome Road" because is full of young women (Otome/Maiden), but the redirect is still misplaced (so I removered it) because the term "Otome" in itself has little to no connection to the term "Otaku". Furthermore, "Otome" refers primarily to "Maiden" and should redirect there. Kazu-kun (talk) 22:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] JASON MRAZ. Also Otakon.

So WHY exactly does the See Also section contain a link to Jason Mraz?? I checked his page, says nothing at all about otaku, and the otaku page doesn't mention him at all. I know it's minor, but it seems completely out of place. Is he a recognized otaku? If so it should be mentioned on *his* page, and not the otaku page, as it still adds virtualy nothing to the article other than plugging. Also it is my opinion that the small, pegged-off Otakon sentence adds virtually nothing to the article, acting as yet another shameless plug. It's actually *not* the only anime convention in the world, after all. I'm debating on whether or not to simply remove both of them until someone can obtain something harder, but I'm a bit hesitant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.28.244.186 (talk) 03:30, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wotaku should not be used here

At the very beginning of the article it indicated "wotaku" in katakana as being a spelling for "otaku" this is incorrect being that "wotaku" is a very specific type of otaku who obsesses over idols. If you have seen "wotaku" being used as a blanket term for "otaku" that person was using the word incorrectly. As such I'm going to remove it from the main article. -- NatsukiGirl\^talk 08:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, apparantly it does say this within the article itself, but at the top, and in the English usage section, it perpetuates the notion that wotaku is a blanket term for all otaku. What should we do to fix this? -- NatsukiGirl\^talk 08:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How it it pronounced?

That ought to be added to the article, so I don't sound like an idiot when I read it out loud. ;-) - Theaveng 17:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Otaku in Japan

Just wondering how 'derisive' a term it is in japan. If i'm not wrong i believed the ex japanese prime minister (Aso?) paraphrased something along the lines that the latest culture of japan is one that is 'otaku'. And furthermore implicitly implied that he was a manga otaku... Dont have any citations atm but i thought it may be worth noting the larger acceptance of 'otaku' culture in japan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.8.41 (talk) 11:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, there is this Japanese show aired in HK where the culture minister(or someone along that line) used Cantonese to express that he is an Otaku. That episode is about a prize giving ceremony of the foreign language manga in which it happened to be two Hong Kong artist who got the first two position(and thus held in HK). Also, Japanese pop stars often appear in shows that are otaku based, a lot of pop stars even openly said they are otaku and are very active in anime casting. The main problem is that those are pasted shows and their own blog entry that are extremely hard to track back to source. MythSearcher^talk 08:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Relation to AS?

I don't necessarily disagree with the linking in related subjects to Asperger's Syndrome, but I'm not sure there is any hard support for that correlation. It seems right, but it should be cited before adding. user:john.ohno —Preceding comment was added at 15:04, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The whole section was a mess. I kept the most relevent wikilinks and removed the rest. The presents of many of the wikilinks appear to be pushing a POV that connected otaku with mental illness. --Farix (Talk) 20:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proper Lexicon Missing

I can't help but notice that the actual Japanese alphabet spelling of otaku is glaringly absent and symbolised as '???' - is there no one that can correct this? It seems a fairly important detail for an encylopedic entry rather than so much of the cultural analysis (though woot for Gibson)! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.173.69 (talk) 14:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Otaku (おたく or オタク) - right in the opening. Are you having trouble seeing Japanese characters? You might need some Help:Japanese. Biccat (talk) 20:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Correct Japanese Spellings

We provide the spellings for Japanese of Otaku as "おたく or オタク" - is this correct? An online translation says the first means 'home' and the other 'mania'. Mania makes sense but i just wanted to check this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.38.32.3 (talk) 15:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)