Talk:Osyth

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Why is it necessary to say that Osyth might be entirely legendary? Anyone in history might have been entirely legendary, from Plato to Napoleon to Kennedy. Who would make up some saint just for the hell of it, and who the fuck would believe and/or propagate this lie, or name a city after a lie? Is this completely unfounded skepticism supposed to pass for objective reasoning around here? This kind of thing is really starting to piss me off. Tix 04:05, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know who put that in, however there is no doubt that she did actually exist - the legendary part comes into it when you consider some of the things that are said to have happened to her, for example her corpse standing up, picking up its own head and walking to the convent. Also I think you need to moderate your language: this may be the 21st century, but some people do still feel offended by strong language (including myself). -- Francs2000 13:51, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Death

Osyth could not have been killed by Vikings in 653. The Viking raids on Britain didn't get under way until the 790s. Must have been someone else. EikwaR 00:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

That's not the only problem. The links supplied are full of contridictions. The britannia.com (which someone seems to have confused with Encyclopaedia Britannica) link gives the date as ca.700, which seems more likely, if she was the granddaughter of Penda (which would mean she wouldn't likely have been born much before 640, and quite possibly later, depending on the dating of Penda's birth) and married to Sighere of Essex, who didn't reign until 664 (FWIW, the present Wikipedia article on Sighere puts their separation in 673). The links which date her death to 653 make her an East Anglain, the daughter of King Redwald, rather than a Mercian. Some sources claim she bore Sighere a son, which some in turn make out to be Offa of Mercia (which is most certainly wrong), while others claim the marriage was never consummated. I found a few web sources which gave a date as late as 870 (which would be right in the middle of the Danish conquest, and explain the absence from Bede), but this would undermine the rest of her biography. Ultimately, I couldn't find any sources which I would call particularly "reliable."

The Danes were about well before the 790s. They were certainly known to the Anglo-Saxons at the time at which Beowulf was composed, which may have been as early as the late 600s. They were allies with Cornwall against Wessex in 722. However, your point is taken: the first record of a Viking raid is from 787, and the first major raid was the Lindisfarne raid in 793. A number of sources make the culprits a handful (as few as two, in at least one source) of Danish "pirates," rather than "Vikings." I'm not sure if that makes any difference, though.

I'm going to have to find a copy of Butler's Lives and see what that has to say on the matter. -GSwift 08:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[Adendum] Interestingly, Butler gives the 870 date, making no mention of any relationship to Penda. Butler makes her "daughter of Frewald, a Mercian prince, and niece to Editha, to whom belonged the town and manor of Ailesbury[sic], where she was brought up with her pious aunt." It is possible, that this "Editha" is the same as the Editha (daughter of King Æthelwulf, according to Butler, but of Egbert, according to the article on Polesworth Abbey) who became associated with St. Modwena and Polesworth Abbey about 840 (later revered as St. Edith). That "Editha" is not St. Edith of Wilton, in any case (as currently linked), should be clear from the fact that Edith of Wilton was not born until 961. He goes on to make her husband an unnamed king of the East Angles; relaying that the marriage was not consummated, and that her husband bestowed on her the property for the abbey at Chich, which she governed "many years."

The Danish leaders are mentioned by name as "Hinguar and Hubba" (better known as Ivar "the Boneless" Ragnarsson and Ubbe Ragnarsson - the sons of Ragnar Lodbrok - who led the invasion begun in 865). There is no mention made of the legend about her carrying her severed head. Of her body, Butler states that "for fear of the Dansih pirates," it was, "after some time, removed to Ailesbury, and remained there forty-six years." The remains were then returned to Chich, where they appear to have remained therefater, until the dissolution. He makes no mention of a papal decree forcing the removal of the relics, but then he has the remains no longer in Aylesbury by 1500.

I'm guessing we need a rewrite, following Butler mostly. This because Butler is usually regarded as a reasonably reliable source, unlike the web sources that were relied on for the present version, and because Butler's version is more consistent with history (St. Edith and the Danes are anacronistic if Osyth lived in the seventh century). If no one objects, I'll try to undertake that soon. I'd like to get a look at some of the sources quoted by Butler before I do, so it might take a couple of weeks. -GSwift 06:23, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding better sources, there's an article in the Oxford DNB (here, if you have access) and one in the Biographical Dictionary of Dark Age Britain. There's a recent edition of Geoffrey of Burton's life of Morwenna which includes material on Osgyth. The Bollandists published Bethell's "Lives of St. Osyth of Essex and St. Osyth of Aylesbury", Annalecta Bollandiana 88 (1970). Then there's Bailey, "Osyth, Frithuwold and Aylesbury" in Records of Buckinghamshire, vol 31 (1989), and Hohler, "St Osyth and Aylesbury", Records... vol 18, part 1 (1966). Oodles of material. Perhaps I'm leaping to conclusions, but is the problem here not that two different saints Osgyth are being conflated? Angus McLellan (Talk) 09:26, 7 October 2007 (UTC)