Category talk:Orthodox Jewish Anti-Zionism

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[edit] WP:CFD

Categories for discussion This category was nominated for deletion, renaming, or merging with another category on 2007 August 22. The result of the discussion was no consensus.
Categories for discussion This category was nominated for deletion, renaming, or merging with another category on 2007 October 11. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

[edit] Category needs explanation

We cannot reach here 5 articles, because not all Jews who are not Zionists are defined by being anti zionists, only the ones who make this their main issue like neture karteh and part of satmar. so what merit does such a category have in the first place if only 3 articles would ever be incuded in it?--יודל 16:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Neither do all of those who are in the category 'Religious Zionism' make Zionism their main point in life. And yet they are in that category. All Orthodox Jewish groups which exhibit strong opposition to Zionism belong in this category. That includes many, many other groups, which I will indeed add to this category:
  • Satmar
  • Neturei Karta
  • Edah HaChareidis
  • Central Rabbinical Congress
  • Dushinsky
  • Vizhnitz(-Monsey)
  • Puppa
  • Munkacz
  • Tosh
  • Skver
  • Nitra
  • Wien
  • Spinka
  • Toldos Aharon
  • Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok
  • Mishkenos HoRoim
  • Skullen
  • Kretshnif
  • Pshevorsk
  • and many other small groups which do not have Wikipedia articles yet.
All of these groups have their opposition as Zionism as a unifying factor, motivating them to join hands in organizations such as the Edah in E"Y and the CRC in the US - organizations in which pro-State chareidim do NOT participate.
Or could you explain to me why the following groups:
  • Litvaks (Rav Eliashiv, Rav Shteinman, Rav Karelitz, and Lakewood)
  • Ger
  • Belz
  • Sanz-Klausenburg
  • Karlin-Stolin
  • Tolna
  • Boston
  • Nadvorna
  • Sadigura
  • Boyan
...are not in the Edah/CRC? What about Bobov, which is known as slightly more moderate (they have a good kesher to the Edah/CRC but AFAIK are not really 'members' of either)?
Well, I can tell you. Because the Edah/CRC have anti-Zionism as a main point unifying all groups that are included in them (in the Edah/CRC) - and the groups I just mentioned do not oppose Zionism to this extent.
The groups which are in the Edah/CRC are all of the sort that oppose voting in the Zionist elections, forbid taking bribes (money from the Zionists), totally forbid anything having to do with the Zionist army.
Thus, the groups that do affiliate with the Edah/CRC all belong in this category, and I will be adding them all to this category. IZAK's concern is ridiculous, since as I just said, many groups are NOT virulently anti-Zionist, and I do NOT intend on including them in this category (including Rav Eliashiv, who is affiliated with the State Rabbinate, would be ridiculous!). I only intend on including in this category those who affiliate with the Edah/CRC, ie, those who refuse to take Zionist money, do not vote in the elections, sign anti-Zionist posters and pamphlets, give haskomos to anti-Zionist seforim (such as Vayoel Moshe), participate in anti-Zionist demonstrations. That seems VERY reasonable to me and I do not see why anybody would disagree with this. --Eidah 07:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Dear Eidah, the reasoning of yours is faulty, and the facts are very faulty put down as facts, true all those groups u r enumerating are associated with crc in a non binding respectful way, that means they never officially joined them but either did the oppose the crc publicly, the other groups are simply headquartered in isreal so they are opposed to crc'c statements against them. the crc is a satmar rabbis organization. and whoever isn't fighting with satmar doesn't fight them. so all those groups you count as satmar maybe close to them in geography but not at all related in regards to Zionism--יודל 11:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Eidah: You cannot impose your POV that "only" one issue unites these groups on Wikipedia. What you are saying here is that you propose to literally hijack the bulk of articles about Haredi Jews and Judaism on Wikipedia for your openly stated so-called "anti-Zionist" agenda. There have been many editors and writers of those articles over the years, but none of them have ever proposed to do what you openly say you are going to do here. You cannot take a complex field of many great personalities and issues and turn it into your own vendetta that looks like a jihad to utterly defame and destroy anyone who does not follow your Stalinist-like interpretation of Judaism. As matters stand, you will be violating the following Wikipedia official policies (read them up as you will have to defend yourself against them):

and more. You are going too far. IZAK 10:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and one more point, you make it sound that the Edah HaChareidis (Edah) and the Central Rabbinical Congress (CRC) are the alpha and omega of Yiddishkeit which they are NOT! You use them as some sort of "premise" to begin all your arguments with, like, well why aren't some people on the Edah/CRC's this or that, when, let it be clear, that is just your interpretation of matters and has nothing to do with reality or truth. It is disgusting on your part to claim that if any group does not belong to the Edah/CRC then they are somehow "tainted" or "deficient" which is just plain stupid. Have you ever considered that perhaps it is the Edah and the CRC that are sometimes at fault in some way, and that they are not 101% perfect all the time, just maybe? Or do you believe that they have some supernatural "papal infallibility" or something? And in case, why do you write as if the Edah and the CRC would accept what you say about them on Wikipedia when they work strictly within their own world (except of course when some of them play the game of "plausible deniability" of endorsing the Neturei Karta and its escapades like visiting "tzadikim" like Ahmadinejad or the late not lamented Arafat yimach shemam -- and notice how you spend more time cursing Jews than cursing their enemies, shame on you!) So it would be very worthwhile for you to brush up on WP:NPOV as a small step. Oh and what happened to ve'ahavta lerai'acha kamocha? IZAK 10:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Just one note: our worst enemies are the Zionists. They are the ones who have enflamed the Arabs, who have caused huge anti-Semitism around the world. I myself am not affiliated with Neturei Karta. And by the way, Neturei Karta does not join hands with the Arab murderers. As my rov's son said, "the Zionists are murderers and the Arabs are murderers." The fact that the Zionists are murderers does not in any way imply that the Arabs are peace-loving sweet people whom we should hug and kiss. Please do not accuse me of such things. You implicitly accused me of being a traitor similar to Moshe Hirsch and his friends. --Eidah 11:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Hey, do I see "plausible deniability" at work here or do you still have a "little zionist" that still lives somewhere inside of you? To claim that "our worst enemies are the Zionists" is utter rubbish, maybe something they brainwash small children and Baal teshuvas with. It is the repose of those who don't have anything better to offer. Almost all secular Zionists today (not speaking of people who lived 100 years ago) are Tinokos shenishbu (having the Halachik status of Jewish "babies captured" and raised by gentiles and are thus guiltless for their actions) so to blame them for all our sins is a cop-out. And sorry, you will have to learn that Religious Zionists are capable of more yiras shomayim than many Haredi oisvurfs. A religious Zionist will give his life to save all Jews on the battlefront, is that sosmething most Haredim are willing to do? You persist in displaying the worst of Haredism by your futile arguments. True Teshuva begins by understanding where we went wrong and not by blaming others! The Talmud is more honest than you. It says that sinas chinam by the best of frum Jews destroyed the Bais HaMikdash, and there were no Zionists then. I do not know who your "rov" is and why you think he has any value in this discussion on Wikipedia. Does your rov also tell you what color underwear to wear? If he has anything to say, tell him to log on and join our discussion here, he would be most welcome, unless of course he holds that being on the Internet is assur (if so, why are you on it?) because your terrorist tactics and bullying are getting out of hand and making many people tired. IZAK 11:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Objections to this category's "rationale"

Since the views I expressed in the course of nominating this category for deletion are being ridiculed, they are being restated and recorded below verbatim, for the record. IZAK 10:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

  1. This is a convoluted and misleading category that is bound to cause more confusion than anything else. It labels itself "Orthodox" and "Jewish" when most Orthodox and Jewish groups actually strongly support Zionism either actively or passively. So far, it has had a few articles connected with Haredi Judaism and in particular Hasidic Judaism tossed into it. The way it's headed is that POV ways will be found to put all of Haredi and Hasidic Judaism into this "category" making them appear to be based on a one-horse issue of "anti-Zionism" even at the same time that many of the groups in these articles live, work and flourish within the modern State of Israel and the Zionist establishment, including running for its Knesset and sitting in its governments. How "anti-Zionist" is that? And if what is meant is extreme fanatical die-hard fringe groups, then they are certainly not worthy of "categories" as such. Thus, the category is not well thought out and violates WP:NPOV and WP:NOT#SOAPBOX and probably more.
  2. But ... even "Haredi Anti-Zionism" is too nebulous because the very nature of Haredim and "Haredism" is to move on many tracks at one time, so that that they appear to be both "pro" and "anti" many things politically when in fact they are none of the above since Haredim are essentially apolitical!
  3. Hello Eidah: Considering that we have never met, either in real life or as editors (in your incarnation as User:Eidah here at anay rate) I do not wish to fall victim to any type of useless flame war with you over this. Kindly calm down. You should not be attacking anyone, least of all me. (Note: I was probably the only person who put in a good word for User:Daniel575 in his time of trial/s but alas, my words of advice were not heeded, and the identity at that IP address is still banned.) I can't really get into a complete answer to all the tangents you fling up, but let me assure you that I have not changed my views from the time I began editing on Wikipedia in 2002. At any rate, your attempts to explain "anti-Zionism" actually do more damage to some groups you wish to speak for, since they have better and more sophisticated ways of explaining their opposition to a secular Jewish state. (Often, they, unlike you or I, choose to remain SILENT, which is the smartest strategy of all because as you see from this discussion, the deep Torah notions "get lost in translation" and even worse are mangled beyond true meanings.) But to throw terrible accusations, such as: "Zionist heretics who are being controlled by the Soton, having succumbed to the despicable yetzer horo of supporting the impure Zionist lie, may it quickly evaporate and dissolve" and "you have sold out to the disgusting traitors and you are working to defend the reshoim" is totally out of line. Do you truly know who you are writing about? Have you ever stopped for a minute to consider that neither you nor anyone have the "monopoly" on absolute chochma or on definitive hashkafa or on the totality of the Eibishter for that matter. Maybe another yid has thought these things out a lot better than you have and knows how to "package" the emes a lot better than the way you keep on trying to do it, but keep on falling flat on your face each time, as you gravely insult anyone who does not do things your way. (Oh, I am sure that the crazies in Iran or Lebanon or Gaza "love" what you write and do on the Internet, it's free propaganda for them after all, and yet that does not seem to bother your conscience, but let's not go down that road my boy, ok!) What happened to shivim ponim laTorah? Or is that reserved for different varieties of Chasidim and Israel-bashers, be they Yidden or Goyim, rachmana litzlan!? At any rate, even your examples are flawed. For example, Vizhnitz is huge in Israel, lives off the fat of the land and is heavily involved in its politics and sitting in the Knesset in Agudat Israel. Indeed all the groups have family and friends living very well in Israel and enjoying it to, in more ways than one, if you know what I mean. Oich mir "anti-Zionists"! At any rate, as I have stated in my nomination above, the way the category is worded is misleading and the way it was populated could only add to a mistaken impression that the "only" thing that made these groups tick was one issue, which is just not true. Let me also comment on your statement: "IZAK, I had truly not expected you to turn out to be a Zionist. You appeared to be a regular frum Jew who had some yiras shomayim and who was always involved in maintaining NPOV on Jewish subjects." It's quite funny actually, because if either of us were "regular frum Jews" who had "some yiras shomayim"" (sheesh, are you now measuring that as well on Wikipedia? What a lost cause!) we would not be wasting our time on Wikipedia or surfing the net pitching our penny's worth to the cyberworld, but we would be in a Bais Medrash somewhere learning another blatt or enjoying a sefer. Take care.
  4. Eidah: POV comments like "the impure Zionist state"; "praying for it to be dissolved"; "virulent anti-Zionism" are controversial satements in-and-of themselves and should not be acceptable, and then you have the audacity to turn logic on its head by saying that "I absolutely do not understand why this category should be controversial at all"! Think now, besides "hating" Zionists morning-noon-and-night aren't there lots of other things that Haredim "hate" and is there nothing else, according to you, that occupies these groups besides "hating Zionists" which makes it sound as normal as having a Category:People who hate bed-bugs all day as if they have no other personal, familial, working and community problems? Some Haredim may blame "Zionism" for all that ails them, which is not far different than the Arabs blaming the Israelis for all their problems. Don't you see that it's a cop-out and a lie that covers other truths: That Haredim are so huge today that Zionism is the LEAST of their challenges!? On balance, the Zionist state gives Haredim (and all Israeli citizens) MONEY through all sorts of grants, an economy open to invest in and build unlimited dwellings for frum families, free medical care, exemption from army service, lets it run its own communities and schools, freedom of travel internally and abroad, freedom of speech (so that people like yourself can say what they want -- not like what will happpen when the Haredim will take over the state) and PROTECTS Haredim (with its army, police, and politically), just see the photos of the Satmar Rabbi Aaron Teitelbaum on last week's visit to Israel being PROTECTED by the secular Zionist Israeli police!!! Don't you get that this is 2007 and not 1907!!! In any case, Haredi Judaism is "anti" many things on the theoretical and the not-so-theoretical level! Do you wish to create categories for all those things that are assur? Let's see now: Category:Orthodox Jewish Anti-Modernism; Category:Orthodox Jewish Anti-Feminism; Category:Orthodox Jewish Anti-Secularism; Category:Orthodox Jewish Anti-college education; Category:Orthodox Jewish Anti-media with sub-categories of Category:Orthodox Jewish Anti-Internet; Category:Orthodox Jewish Anti-television; Category:Orthodox Jewish Anti-cell phones and Category:Orthodox Jewish Anti-popular music if the list could go on and on it really could, but it's just that Jew-bashing, in the guise of "anti-Zionism" has greater acceptance in the general media giving the words "anti-Zionism" a "sex appeal" that other issues opposed by Haredim have not received (yet) but I am sure that you are working on it...

At this point it is clear that User:Eidah's single goal is to paint the entire Haredi movement as a "one horse town" having a single mantra in its collective head, heart and soul devoted to his wild notion of "anti-Zionism" leaving the outside world with the impression of a one-dimensional backward group of people who have more in common with the Ayatollahs and Hamas then with the rest of the world's Jews. What a crazy idea and what a pity it is that such an abortion of truth should be foisted on Wikipedia readers who may know little or nothing about this subject. IZAK 10:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that you get new glasses, since apparently, considering the entire rant that you just posted, you have not read a single word of what I wrote above. --Eidah 11:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
If I "rant" than you must surely be hallucinating! How sad that you are so blinded by your hate! IZAK
Eidah is not blinded at all, he is knowingly in this to blind us, that's why he constantly reverts edits in silence and constantly calls names and trows profanity at others who disagree with him, with total disregard to the policies of the community's role in this forming of consensus. Izak i don't think u can erase this category in itself there are a few Jews who are very loud in this think and most community here thinks they comprise a whole category, although this is far from the truth it sure makes this impression since the media loves to give them the spotlight, due to their sensational extremism. The only solution to get rid of this despicable single minded POV is to make Eida adhere to the policies and guidelines of the community consensus building.--יודל 11:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question for Eidah: are you blocked User:Daniel575?

I have left the following request on Eidah (talk · contribs)'s talk and I am still awaiting a response: Question: Are you a sock puppet of banned User:Daniel575? See also Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Daniel575. Please reply ASAP and explain why not and how you are different. Thank you, IZAK 11:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

  • We all know he is, but he has an admin friend, Y. When I pointed out one of Daniel's sockpuppets, I got yelled at for going on a witch hunt. We know he's Daniel, he's Dutch, check out his edits. It's getting to the point that nobody wants to edit Jewish or Israeli articles anymore because they are not in the mood of getting involved with Daniel and his tactics. If you look at his talk page, Y gives tacit approval of the knowledge that he is indeed Daniel. Yossiea (talk) 13:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I think your issue in sockpupetry is not the point here, he may be the same guy as other names but if he doesnt use it to win consensus there is no point against him. Lets talk about the facts are there anti zionist jews?! this was allready broght up to a vote and consenuss had it against user IZAK, we cannot ignore this fact there are thousends of jews opposing the state of isreal. does this rewqwire a category in itsef, that is the qwestion here, i think since this is an under populated category it has no merit and user eidah should play by the rules of not reverting without taking and stop calling names.--יודל 14:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Um יודל: did you fail to notice that the vote resulted in "no consensus"? And as for Eidah it is very obvious by now that he plays by no rules accept his own and therefore he should not be given the benefit of the doubt to insult and bully. IZAK 15:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Yossiea: Oh, so then there is one law for Eidah and one for the rest of the world? Maybe Y should also be blocked for aiding and abbeting a known sockpuppet and cyber-terrorist on Wikipedia. IZAK 15:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
It looks like it. As for Y, if you look at one of Daniel's earlier blockings, he has admitted to speaking with Daniel offline and knowing that he is a sockpuppet. I don't know what to do when an admin abuses his privileges, but I believe he has a link where he supposedly will go back to RFA if enough people request it. Here is how he lays it out: User:Y/Accountability Yossiea (talk) 15:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I am aware that is user is a reincarnation of Daniel. It's not exactly a shock to anyone. Everybody knows. However, I have done literally nothing to protect his user, not as a user, and certainly not with my administrative privileges!! If you would like to submit a recall petition, you may do so. It will be fun, actually. As for running around revealing what I attempted to conceal, you have my intense contempt, and you have committed a grievous aveirah bein odom lechaveiro, for which you will have to answer in two weeks. -- Y not? 20:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)