Talk:Orpheus in the Underworld

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[edit] reception?

any idea on how this was received when it first came out?

[edit] ---=

I have taken out the spoiler tag as I don't think it is appropriate here - or really with any opera plot. This is an operetta not a thriller and the predictability of the plot is part of the humour. Everybody knows the story - that's the starting point of the work.

Kleinzach 11:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Do you think it's possible to add further information on this? It has two versions by Offenbach himself (a two act and a four act), a complete rearranging by Hammer and Park (or something like that) that swaps around songs with abandon tfrom all of Offenbach, and numerous others. Indeed, even the names of the songs, unless we give them in French, are going to be non-standard: because there IS no standard. What to do? Adam Cuerden 19:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Adam. I removed the spoiler tag after a discussion on the Opera Project which you have found. I didn't write or compile the article. If you are familiar with this operetta I would think there is great scope for improvement! Best. Kleinzach 19:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I was in it once. But it was a home-brew translation and I know there's an awful lot of versions out there. I have the D'Oyly Carte Recording if you think that'd be any help? Just that I'm not quite sure where to cite from, as I'd be working entirely from memory for the history and such things. Adam Cuerden 20:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I've added a song list, taken from the D'Oyly Carte version, with extensive commentary to try and keep the translation difficulties from causing more problems. I think we can get away with that under Fair Use. Everything in that section NOT in italics is my own work. It's not a standard format, and some things are repeated twice, but I'd like to know whether the sections would be preferred to be combined or whether I should instead edit my comments into the Plot Summary and hope that the song list makes sense to people, or what? Adam Cuerden 21:42, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the 'Song list' makes the plot' section unnecessary and we should cut the latter? What date is the D'Oyly Carte piece? If you are concerned about copyright, perhaps it would be best to paraphrase and then make a formal reference to it as a source? 'Song list' seems odd in relation to an opera bouffe. Why not 'list of vocal numbers' or simply 'list of numbers'?

We normally give a list of roles, performance history, recordings etc. There is a template on the Project page. An example is Il campiello. - Kleinzach 22:56, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that since my reference sources concentrate heavily on English music, particularly the Victorian period, I can't really help much with further information. Best I could do is add a few things from memory (e.g. that it nearly failed before a critic lambasted it for ruining the Greek myths, at which point people flocked to it to find out what was going on) and end up with "citation needed" everywhere. Ah, well. The D'Oyly Carte CD is from 1994, but since the ONLY things I took from it were the titles of the songs I believe it's Fair Use. (The commentary was done from memory of a production I was in). I'll combine the two sections into one, with a note as to why it's done that way - it can be reverted if needed. Adam Cuerden 23:07, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

To do complete articles, reference materials are essential. The standard reference we use is the New Grove Dictionary of Opera. It is online but you have to pay. However there is a lot of other information available for free if you google. Getting recording details, libretti etc is easy.

Fair use basically covers extracts. In this case it might be better to give the original French and make your own translations, borrowing ideas as appropriate from the D'Oyly Carte list, explaining which version you are describing.

Hope that helps. Kleinzach 00:08, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, of course I need reference maerials to do complete articles. Which is one of the reasons I'm about to leave this article incomplete, get out my four volume Original plays, a few biographies of W.S.Gilbert, Bradley and Final Curtain and go back to W.S. Gilbert. Just thought I could at least get this to a state where it's somewhat useful =) Adam Cuerden 00:38, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor debate

Why, exactly are we eliminating contractions. They may not be necessary, but spelling them out always sounds so awkward.

Also, the a.k.a. may be clumsy, but "the Galop (The Can-Can)" is more so, and inaccurate, as it was only used for the Can-Can later. How about The Infernal Galop (best known as the music of the Can-Can)? Adam Cuerden 04:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Adam, I think you mean 'gallop'. No? Kleinzach 12:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen it spelt that way when refering to the musical form. Indeed, one of the sources I was looking at for Gilbert (one of his burlesques) specifically mentions the "Galop from Orphée aux enfers". It's Galop Infernale or something like that in French, so Infernal Galop's a reasonable translation, since it has nothing to do with horses. Adam Cuerden 13:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

OK. Fair enough. Grove does give 'infernal galop' as an English phrase. Kleinzach 16:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)