Talk:Ornette Coleman

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We have Coleman's birthday as 19 March 1930, but Britannica has it as 9 March 1930. A Web page mentions both dates:

Ornette Coleman: as, ts, tp, violin, composer; born March 19, 1930 (according to J.Litweiler, Coleman's sister gives March 9, 1931).

— http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Quarter/7055/Ornette/bio-ornette.htm

Does anyone have information to say that one is definitely correct, or should we use a similar note?

Britannica seems to be mixing up both alternative dates. I guess just use the Litweiler cite. ND 21:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Plastic saxophone

The article currently states that Coleman's tone is due to his use of a plastic saxophone. In addition to being highly debatable, I was under the impression that Ornette had not played a Grafton in many years (i.e. since the 1960s). Every photo of Ornette that I've seen from the past 30 or 40 years looks like he's playing a metal saxophone (a Selmer, when discernible). Can someone further clarify this? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 07:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

This doesn't help: I've read that he used a plastic trumpet (!). - mako 08:02, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ornette & other musicians

Did Ornette indeed play with the Bad Plus, or did they just share a bill? I'm a little unclear even after reading TPB's blog here. -- I do know that he did play a recent gig with Lee Konitz! ND 21:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the claim, because although I can find plenty of references to the Bad Plus playing Ornette's music, and the blog makes it clear they've had some association with him and are huge fans, I can't find any reference to him actually playing with them. --ajn (talk) 10:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alto or tenor?

Was Ornette primarily an alto or a tenor player? Sweetalkinguy 23:40, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Was, and is, primarily an alto player. He played tenor early on, and has done so occasionally over the years. But I'd venture to guess he played trumpet or violin more often than tenor. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:41, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
although there was the entire album Ornette on Tenor.

--209.222.250.102 06:05, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

plus Soapsuds Soapsuds. ND 05:31, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] trying to find an album, please help

There is an Ornette Coleman album that I am almost positive is not a bootleg in which coleman has 2 groups of musicians in separate studios simultaniously riffing on the same basic tune. If I recall correctly the cover featured a photograph of the inside of a studio, and the main color was light blue. Does anyone beleive me, know what I'm talking about, care, or know exactly which album I'm speaking of? If so, please PLEASE get the info to me.Someone please help. I realise this might not be the most appropriate place to put this request.Thaddeus Slamp 02:35, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

It's called Free Jazz, recorded for Atlantic. --ND 21:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] coleman freejazz term/album

1) One other reason that coleman may have objected to the term free jazz, is that he had an extremely well developed alternative term for his take on music. He called it melodronics, or harmolodics, or something. I think he actually wrote scholarly papers on his take on music. I think it has been respectfully considered, as at least possibly being a school of music, and/or composition.

2) Wasn't the idea of the Free Jazz Album, that the two quartets Couldn't hear eachother. I.e: Wasn't one quartet in a studio where-in they couldn't here the other quartet riffing on the same basic idea, and therefore wasn't this album quite an experiment?Thaddeus Slamp 22:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

1) "harmolodics" is a term Coleman came up with much later than Free Jazz (to be exact, the word first appears in the liners to Skies of America--see Litweiler's bio, p147). -- All of Coleman's efforts to put together any sustained account of his music theories have come to naught; there's nothing beyond what he says in liner notes & interviews, AFAIK.
2) Most studio albums use isolation booths; it's not unusual. But the musicians can hear each other via headphones. I can assure you there's no way Higgins & Blackwell could hook up without hearing each other's playing. --ND 00:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

According to the documentary film "Tom Dowd & The Language of Music" both quartets were in the same room, facing one another separated only by microphones between them.ROG 19 13:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] OC's "other son"

A recent series of edits has involved the insertion of the sentence "Ornette's other son Saintnet Zoboke Lehtinen, Born 22 Sep 1969 is an Air Force Fighter Pilot." (and the creation of his own wiki page, for some reason) by "Saint Lehtinen" (presumably the same person). I reverted this because

1) the insertion was made without any care for the article itself--it interrupted the flow & meaning of the paragraph in question
2) though I don't wish to be skeptical or unfeeling, there's absolutely no reference to Mr Lehtinen in Litweiler's biography. Now, Litweiler may be being discreet for some reason, but I'm still unwilling to take the addition purely on faith.

Maybe Mr Lehtinen can say a little more here about himself & the addition, or other wiki contributors can join in? --ND 00:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pulitzer Prize

A recent edit added that Sound Grammar is the first jazz work to win the Pulitzer Prize for Music. Judging from the list of recipients, and the Pulitzer Prize for Music article, the first such recipient would be Blood on the Fields. However, it would seem that Blood on the Fields is debatable because it actually debuted several years before receiving the award. One might make the same argument about Sound Grammar, as most of the tracks are existing Coleman compositions (see the track listing in the album's article). However, given the nature of jazz and Ornette's music in particular (such that no two performances will be the same), one might consider the Sound Grammar presentation as a "substantial reworking" and, thus, a new work. However, for now I have reverted the article; unless the Pulitzer committee withdraws the award (or someone can make a convincing case to the contrary), Blood on the Fields is the first Pulitzer-winning jazz work. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 06:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Blood on the Fields is composed by a jazz musician but it's debatable whether it's exactly a jazz album/composition: I've usually heard it described as "a three-hour oratorio". Coleman's album is straightforwardly a jazz record, which is a first for the Pulitzer. --ND 20:13, 28 September 2007 (UTC)