Talk:Ormonde Winter

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[edit] Biased?

Sir Ormonde Winter was always a great hero of mine. I was incensed by his biography on Wikipedia which perpetuated the myth of British Intelligence failure and the 'genius' of Michael Collins when actually the reverse is probably true. I found the original article factually incorrect (for instance Winter was an artillery officer, not a sapper)and hugely biased against him. If he was so ineffectual how did he gain the nickname 'The Holy Terror'? My article has also been edited as some of my views were considered to be non-impartial and I accept the moderator's judgement in this regard (unsigned comment by Goolscap)

[edit] NPOV-Is the Republic of Ireland an Independent state, according to this article?

The POV and bias is so blatant that it seems that the Black and Tans won the war, after all. A sentence such as They were eventually forced to sign a humiliating treaty actually fits for the real outcome of the war, but the subject of They are obviously the overwhelming superior British forces, not the Irish leadership as purported by the narrative. As long as I know, the British Empire was the most powerful nation of that time, which was forced to accept the partial independence (which years later became complete) of a territory under its jurisdiction. The civil war and the partition don't dilute the fact of the British failure. This is so absurd as claiming that Britain lost WWII because it was forced to make humiliating appeasements to Stalin about Eastern Europe, or scandalous concessions to USA by dismantling its colonial power worldwide. The overtone of the text is also one of excessive encomium towards Winter' reputation. Therefore, I will introduce the NPOV tag.

DagosNavy 01:56, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I've reworded and removed the tag. Re-add if necessary Kernel Saunters 12:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, seems like I've stirred up a hornet's nest? All I can state is the facts. Did the Black and Tans win the war? I'd have to say a qualified yes, in much the same way as Britain certainly won the Great War despite not 'hanging the Kasier' or marching into Berlin (and WW2 despite Stalins hegemony over Eastern Europe). The Treaty of 1921 gave Irish Nationalism an extended form of the Home Rule granted by Parliament in 1912 and far short of what Irish Republicanism demanded (morever if Irish independence had been gained by purely democatic means it would have proven everything Irish Republicanism believed was a lie). In return the 1921 Treaty made Partition a reality (something constitutional nationalists had always rejected) kept Southern Ireland within the empire, safeguarded the Southern Irish Unionists and allowed Britain to maintain military bases in the south for decades afterwards, a single German U-boat posing an infinitely greater threat than the IRA ever would. That the Irish Free State eventually choose to become fully independent is beyond doubt but this was not through terror and murder but by peaceful and democratic means, means which had never been denied them. Of course, every step towards full independence cemented partition. It all boils down to one simple fact. The Treaty was signed because the Goverment threatened the Sinn Fein delegates to sign it or return to the conflict. They signed the Treaty whose terms were acceptable to the goverment and the public. The people of Southern Ireland would later vote in favour of it by huge margin. However the agreement was so against everything the IRA wanted that a vicious Civil War errupted, killing at least 3 of the Treaty delegates. One does not have a civil war over the terms of your victory. As an Irish Unionist I strongly object to Dagos Navy's use of the terms Irish and British as though they are seperate things (I note in other articles he uses the term 'West Briton', a racist slur akin to using the 'N' word about black people). He also seems to be under the impression that the IRA were fighting the Grenadier Guards, HMS Hood and RAF Bristol bombers in open combat. In fact they were murdering their neighbours, their local bobby, the off duty soldier, the judge, the Protestant farmer. Innocent people who they'd grown up with, gone to school with, lived peacefully beside all their lives and indeed would continue to do so after the Treaty. The British Empire was the greatest in the world as the Great War proved but it could not protect each and every one of it's citizens from assasination 24hrs a day.

Made a couple of edits to the page again. Firstly concerning Igoe, he's 'from' Galway, not 'form' it. Also change the use of the word 'extradited' for him, it implies some form of legal process when actually he left Ireland for fear of assasination. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goolcap (talk • contribs) 17:22, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

Well, Goolcap, if you are so sure of that, go to the article about the Irish war of independence and in the entry result, put "British victory". Good luck if you try such preposterous move.

DagosNavy 21:10, November 03, 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, the purported "racist slurs" I've supposedly made exist only in your mind. If not, please insert a link to the pages where I used those terms. I have nothing against Protestant or Unionist people, just against the Stormont regime (until 1972) and the terrorist organisations that murdered a couple of IRA minor partners, about a dozen Fenians and HUNDREDS of innocent catholics during the Troubles. How many Gardaí or Irish regular army members they (the so called loyalist) killed? ZERO.

DagosNavy 00:56, November 27, 2007 (UTC)