Talk:Organophosphate

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I have removed some rather biased matter which is not in agreement with the majority of scientists. It was about BSE, I suggest that until the editors who added the comments can offer up some evidence to support their I quote

'An organic farmer, Mark Purdy discovered that BSE and type-3 CJD is caused not by a new form of infection called a prion but is caused by poisoning by organo-phosphate fertilisers. {{DiseaseDisorder infobox | '

See [1] for a counterblast aginst this point of view

Cadmium 20:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I find your comments do not adhere to wikipedia's "neutral point of veiw" policy and that both side of an aurgument should be presented for the reader. If you have evidence that "the majority of scientists" agree with your point of view please provide it. Apart from that comments relating to OP's relationship with BSE are irrelevent and inapropriate within the context of this article.

Either both sides should be presented or neither side !

That is not completely true. If a point-of-view is unsupported by outside evidence (WP:NOR, WP:V, WP:CITE) or held by a very small minority (WP:NPOVUW) then it would be allright to not bring this point of view. Please provide evidence, then disagree on policy. JFW | T@lk 17:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I hate to quote your own reference but . ."the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly."(WP:NPOVUW) : If majority scientific views were treated as fact, and it was allright not to bring the point of view of small minorities - the world would still be flat ! I am not disagreeing with policy - only your interpretation of it.

Where's your source, mate? JFW | T@lk 23:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Origional Hypothosis of Mark Purdey [2]; Report of Phillips Enquiry [3] - From Findings & Conclusions of Phillips Enquiry - "It remains possible that environmental factors, including toxic chemicals, may additionally be implicated in susceptibility to prion disease."[4] Dlm4473 (talk · contribs)

"Additional", eh? But I think a report in Med Hypoth should be linked as an academic reference. I think it may be notable enough for mention, unless Cadmium disagrees. JFW | T@lk 13:51, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the Phillips enquiry cite lends credence to, nor refutes Purdey's theory. I'm leaving it out for now. JFW | T@lk 13:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

No Problem with that, happy with latest edit - i am not trying to push Purdey's hypothosis but i do believe that alternative theories should be given the light of day - letting the reader evaluate the merits of the case for themselves in absence of 'proof'. Statements along the lines of "The organophosphates are not linked to BSE (AKA Mad cow disease)" do little for education or for Wikipedia's credibility. Thanks for your time on this JFW.

Now of course you pushed the Purdey view. If you hadn't been there to push it would not have been here. The fact that the EU science committee bothered to address this issue is enough for me to show that there is at least an element of notability. With both views represented we have now arrived at WP:NPOV. I think. JFW | T@lk 16:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poison

It would be good if the use of Organophosphate as raticide were cited.

Leo McAllister 16:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

"British scientists experimented with an anticholinergic organophosphate of their own, called diisopropylfluorophosphate (DFP), during"   I changed the word anticholinergic to cholinercic because OP's are definitely not anticholinergics.

[edit] The article is too vague and too scare-mongering

Isn'd DNA an organophosphate, based on the definition given in this alarmist article? And solvents like trimethylphosphate? And lots of biosynthetic intermediates?--Smokefoot 03:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

yeah that's kind of a good point. i think most pharmacologists know what you're talking about when you say organophosphate, but you're right, lots of harmless biomolecules are technically OPs. this article is really about OP toxins/pesticides which are really a pretty small (but well-characterized/studied) family of molecules. anyone have suggestions for a more precise definition? Roadnottaken 18:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the article should define organophosphates broadly: OP(OR)3, and then note that while the definition technically includes biomolecules like DNA (although the phosphate group in DNA only has 2 OR groups, not 3) the term is used almost exclusively to refer to pesticides, nerve toxins, and related chemicals, including small molecules in which one or more oxygens has been replaced by sulfurs. Note that molecules such as glyphosate which have an O=P-OR linkage but also possess an unesterified hydroxyl group on the same O=P are not generally refered to as organophosphates. Yilloslime 18:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

What this article really needs are good sources to back up the definition. I just did a very quick search and didn't find anything definitive, but from a quick search 1) I could not find any referring to DNA and similar biomolecules as organophosphates. 2) All the organophosphates I found were not esters of phosphoric acid, but had P-C or P-S bonds. I suspect that the definition as OP(OR)3 is wrong; while these would obviously be "organic" and "phosphates", they don't seem to take the label "organophosphates", just as not all compounds containing carbon and metals are called "organometallic", but rather require a bond between a metal and carbon or another "organic-like" element. --Itub 11:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

You are probably correct - the definitions are vague and confusing (A related argument hovers over the definition of organometallic compounds as you allude to, some consider titanium isopropoxide organometallic whereas hard-core organametallickers typically use the term "metallo-organic"). I get the sense that the present article started as a review of sarin and related organophosphorus compounds by the hands of well-intentioned editors who are unfamiliar with phosphorus chemistry. So, I figured if we are going to be vague and focus on the bad stuff, we should be vague and focus on the good stuff too. It is useful or instructive for readers to see that closely related compounds are good and bad, depending on the application and the specific substituents. Regardless: DNA and RNA are pretty clearly polyesters of phosphoric acid. I have no sense of ownership so feel free to edit away. --Smokefoot 12:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Things like Sarin, VX, and the whole V-series of nerve agents are actually organophosphonates and thiophosphonates, not organophosphates because of the above-mentioned P-C bond. (See organophosphorus compounds.) Other toxins, like chlorpyrifos is a thiophosphate. I suspect that the P-C or P=S bonds lend the reactivity to these compounds that make them so toxic. Could we get a chemist to weigh-in on this? I don't think the article is alarmist but it may be mis-titled. An article about all compounds containing carbon and phosphorous is ridiculously broad so perhaps this article just needs to be re-labled... Roadnottaken 16:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I am a chemist. As I said before, though perphaps not clearly, there is more than one way of defining the term. Technically according to IUPAC, etc, only triesters of phosphoric acid are organophosphates. But practically, the term is harderly ever--if at all--applied to DNA and other biomolecules, and while at the same time it is applied to pesticides and related compounds that are not strictly of the formula OP(OR)3. For example, the EPA and everyone else refers to chlorpyrifos, diazinon, and even pesticides with O=P-C connectivity as "organophophates," even though these compounds are more properly classified as phosphorothioates, thiophosphates, phosphonates, or some other more specific term. I think the article should definitely address both "POVs," but I'd argue that for most people coming to wikipedia to find out what the heck an organophosphate is, the "common usage" definition is going to be much more informative. After all, if you google or news.google the term "organophosphate," all your top hits relate to pesticides and/or toxicity. Yilloslime 17:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I haven't been able to find any IUPAC definition for organophosphate. In organic nomenclature, the esters of phosphoric acid would be called "phosphates". Organophosphates is a common name for a class of molecules that are not really phosphates, but such is life. ;-) --Itub 16:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Organophosphates Banned

Organophosphates are no longer used by the pest control industry. In fact the best product on the market for ant control (Termidor) is less toxic in it's mixed form than table salt. 68.7.195.20 (talk) 05:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)