Talk:Organismós Sidirodrómon Elládos

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[edit] Naming

"literally", it's the "Hellenic Organism of the Iron Path" :o) dab (ᛏ) 10:26, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In Greek, "οργανισμός" means both "organism" and "organisation". As for "σιδηρόδρομος", while it is a composite word, and the parts do mean "iron" and "road", it's not reasonable to translate the parts separately, is it? I did see the smiley there, but I don't understand the joke. It's exactly the same as the French "chemin de fer" or the Japanese "鉄道"! Adia 22:28, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)

April 7th 2006. A new Managing Director, Mr. Dionisios P. Xionis, has been appointed to OSE, the Greek Railway Operating Company as from 23/03/2006. OSE has updated the links to their site and considerably improved it with up-to-date information. http://www.ose.gr/echome.asp?lang=2 There is also a well designed and informative site devoted to the Athens Metro. http://www.ametro.gr/# and there is a site dedicated to the "Electric", the original Trans Athens suburban electric railway, which forms the backbone of the new system. This is well illustrated with an excellent gallery going back to its 19th century beginnings. http://www.isap.gr/ A welcome new chapter! Harfo32 21:34, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


Moved to Organismós Sidirodrómon Elládos (correcting my own earlier mistake -- sorry!). -- Picapica 20:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Confirmation from OSE's official website):

ΟΡΓΑΝΙΣΜΟΣ ΣΙΔΗΡΟΔΡΟΜΩΝ ΕΛΛΑΔΟΣ (ΟΣΕ)
Την 1η Ιανουαρίου του 1970 (με το ΝΔ 674/1970) ιδρύεται ο "Οργανισμός Σιδηροδρόμων Ελλάδος"


[edit] Peloponnese network

There seems to be considerable work in progress on the Peloponnese line at present. I suggest dividing it into three main sections, Athens to Corinth, the northern branch from Corinth via Patras to Kalamata and Kyparissia and the southern branch which completes the circle from Corinth via Tripoli to Kalamata. The branch line to Olympia could be treated as such. When I travelled to Athens recently I noticed that the narrow gauge track had been removed from alongside the main line, and that the track from Athens to Patras is now standard gauge. Does the narrow gauge track still exist, and if so does anyone know how much is left? --Harfo32 16:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


The narrow gauge (1 m) track has been removed and / or converted to standard gauge only between Piraeus and Treis Gefyres (this is between Athens and Agioi Anargyroi stations). Works though are still in progress.
Nowadays, only few (3+3) trains run on the track between Agioi Anargyroi and Corith old station, providing direct connections between Agioi Anargyroi and Loutraki and between Agioi Anargyroi and Pyrgos. All other Peloponnese itineraries that used to depart from Piraeus or Athens, now depart drom the new station of Corinth, which is actually near Examilia.
You can also read these pages from the website of OSE:

In particular, regarding The Peloponnesus network, as far as the introductin of new itineraries is concerned, passengers for the Peloponnesus will be served by The Suburban Railway on the route Athens - Korinthos - Athens and at Korinthos new railway station will board OSE trains, for routes towards The Peloponnesus.

Please note that the trains 304 Agioi Anargiroi - Korinthos (old station) - Pirgos and 305 Pirgos - Korinthos (old station) - Agioi Anargiroi as well as the trains 1312, 1313, 1314, 1315 for the route Agioi Anrgiroi - Isthmos - Loutraki and return, will go directly and they will continue to have as a terminal station the railway station of Agioi Anargiroi. (Source: New Itineraries for the period 2006 8/12/2005. See also Peloponnese Network 31/10/2006 and Agioi Anargyroi 30/11/2006) --Anastasios 15:29, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

As of now, it seems all narrow gauge services to/from Agioi Anargiroi have stopped and transfer between Proastiakos trains and Peloponnese trains takes place in Kiato. (Probably the Kiato-Piraeus trains are now in fact OSE trains. In the timetables they have the same train-numbers as the corresponding Peloponnese trains.) There may be some information on OSE page only in Greek, those fluent in Greek could check it and update the article accordingly.

Sivullinen 20:31, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Only passenger services between Ag. Anargyroi and Kiato have stopped (since June 2006). There is some limited freight traffic over this section, also trains carrying fuels oil and departmental traffic.
There is no longer a separate "Proastiakos S.A." company, it has now merged with the "TRENOSE S.A." operator subsidiary.
Metric line trains between Kiato & Kalamata have numbers in the 3xx series, those on the standard gauge line between Piraeus & Kiato in the 43xx series.
Sv1xv (talk) 15:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
At least in the printed timetables the numbers don't change, 3xx or ICxx are shown for the whole journey, only the times are in italics for Kiato - Piraeus part. (I also think TRENOSE is the correct name, current article uses "TrainOSE".) Sivullinen (talk) 15:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Btw, anyone out there who knows Greek well enough to tell the difference between "τραίνο" and "τρένο" and any reason why they have elected to use TRENOSE S.A. as the English company name instead of TRAINOSE S.A.? --Sivullinen (talk) 15:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, "Train-", "Traino" etc are not proper greek words, they are just used in everyday talk. The greek words are "Συρμός" (syrmos) or "Αμαξοστοιχία" (amaxostichia). The reason for using TRENO- instead of TRAINO- is political. It is a choice of the leftist radicals (who control all aspects of greek cultural life since 1974) and who want to cut off the modern greek language from its roots, either in ancient greek or western european (french&english), by simplifying the spelling. If they are pressed too hard, they remember that in italian it is also "Treno". Sv1xv (talk) 16:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Anyhow, seems they have changed their minds, on the new updated OSE webpages it's TRAINOSE! :) (Maybe the biggest change on the new pages, in addition to the layout, is that the subsidiaries TRAINOSE and EDISY are now made clearly visible) --Sivullinen (talk) 20:30, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
This picture from Railfan Europe shows the last arrival of train 305 to Agioi Anargyroi on 1st June 2007. There are no longer passenger services on this section. See this link http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gr/narrow_gauge/6520/pix.html for comments.
Sv1xv (talk) 17:20, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it's clear Kiato - Piraeus passenger trains use normal gauge track, I didn't argue against that, I was just wondering the numbering of the trains. But you are right, even if the timetable shows Kalamata - Piraues under a single train number, there is a mathching 43xx train for each of them (e.g. the current 305 links with 4357 even if you won't see 4357 at all when searching Kalamata - Pireaus trains in OSE online timetables). Sivullinen (talk) 21:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Btw, there seems to be plans http://www.ergose.gr/ergosesite/inner.asp?CONTAINERID=8&REFCI=428&LANGUAGE=2 to use the old metric line Ano Liossia – Elefsina – Megara for suburban service (it would make some sense because the old and the new line run at some distance from each other, especially between Ano Liossia and Elefsina), lets see what will come out of it! --Sivullinen (talk) 11:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, when reading the current article text about Peloponnese network in the chapter "Network and Stations", I have to say, it's not right: It's almost all written in past tense and gives the pessimistic image that the network hardly exists. It completly fails to convey the information that Kiato - Patras - Pyrgos - Kalamata and a number of branch lines are fully operational and Corinth - Argos - Tripoli - Kalamata will soon reopen. Of course the chapter "Lines in service" gives a more correct picture but that's a poor excuse. In fact the whole chapter "Network and Stations" seems quite orphan and redundant, it appears (in the edit history) someone has taken the lead-in chapter and moved it almost to the end of the article, IMHO the result has not been the best possible. Maybe someone should be bold enough to restructure the article. Sivullinen (talk) 17:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Harfo32 I couldn't agree more! The article is generally a mess - due, I think, to an attempt by a non native English speaker on the OSE staff trying to translate from the OSE information. I tried to completely rewrite the article about 18 months ago, but was unable to complete the job at the time. I will try again! I am about to get the timetable from Larissis Station and I will endeavour to travel the lines. Athens to Kalamata is still only 7 Euros, so it must be one of the best value railway journeys in Europe - on the other hand if it uses the dreadful MAN diesel units maybe the price is right. I believe that OSE go out of their way to discourage passengers - mainly by having a timetable which was dreamed up by Alice in Wonderland. Some of the staff at Larissis station are the least helpful I have met in Europe - apparatchik time servers - though there are exceptions! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Harfo32 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harfo32 (talk • contribs) 12:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Just whining about errors and omissions...

IMHO the chapter about international lines is a bit inadequate because a number of (operational or abandoned, I cannot say that) lines are missing: the line from Thessaloniki via Polikastro to Veles in former Yugoslavia (omission of this line is especially strange because it runs a long journey on the Greek soil), the line from Florina via Prilep to Veles and the line along the Turkish border to Bulgaria.

In several places the text refers to the Paleofarsalos-Karditsa-Trikala-Kalabaka line as a one metre gauge line but in one chapter it is claimed that it is now standard gauge. Is this true and if so when the conversion has taken place? (Could also unify typing of 'Paleofarsalos' in different places, whatever is the correct form).

.....Yes - it is now standard gauge. The conversion took place around 2004, but this needs checking. Harfo32 (talk) 15:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, I don't think the approach of describing the detailed route of a line by listing all the places it passes is very useful: the reader needs a detailed map to understand the descriptions and with the detailed map available he or she does not any more need the detailed description! ;-)

.....I took the original OSE site as the foundation of a complete re-write about two years ago. Much of my prose remains, but the organisation seems to have been hacked about. I agree that listing all the stations is not very useful, but it is factual and was part of the original site contributed by OSE. Harfo32 (talk) 15:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Unification of spelling of Greek names is not usually very helpful as they have case, gender and local usage, and therefore will be found with different spellings in different situations. Both spellings are used (Palaio.... / Paleo .....) and both are found on Greek maps! Harfo32 (talk) 10:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I know, but I think within a single article there should still be consistent names (this article appeared to use at least five different names for Paleofarsalos!). Case and gender of the original Greek names should not affect English text, correct? I have tried to use in my edits the 'official' names of the network nodes in the English version of Network Statement http://www.ose.gr/Documents/2007_EDISY_en.pdf but have often seen that someone has replaced those with some other, obviously in his/her opinion, better names... Of course, not to make it too simple, other 'official' documents (census data, even OSE timetables) can have spelling different from the one in EDISY Network Statement. --Sivullinen (talk) 16:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect information about Ormenion?

In a number of places (at least four) the article states that Ormenion is located on Turkish border or that the line crosses to Turkey at Ormenion. I think this is an error, the line crosses to Turkey already earlier at Pithion but the line continues along the Turkish border and crosses to Bulgaria at Ormenion! Anyone disagree (or agree) with me?

Sivullinen 20:31, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are right, Ormenion is near the Bulgarian border, opposite of Svilengrad. It is the second connection of the greek and bulgarian networks.
Sv1xv (talk) 17:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Good! This has already been fixed in a number of places in the article, mostly by me, I think. --Sivullinen (talk) 20:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Abandoned lines

Please, note that Kavassila - Kylinni line and Agrinio - Messolonghi - Kryoneri line are included in EDISY Network Statement, so they are not really 'abandoned' lines. Please, also check OSE website for plans to reconstruct and expand the Kryoneri - Messolonghi - Agrinio line (new connection to Ioannina and further to the port of Igoumenitsa and to the existing lines in Kalambaka and Kozani).

Also, IMHO the term 'line' in the article is a bit ambiguous, could better separate 'network' and 'service' (go to EDISY Network Statement for information about the network and to OSE online timetables for information about the service ;-))

<May I respectfully suggest you visit this line (Kavassila - Kylinni line and Agrinio - Messolonghi - Kryoneri) If you can find a better term for the stranded sections of rusting track under waterlogged fields, farms, etc. etc. it would be interesting to hear it. The old engine sheds in Aeginio have been restored for other use, but little sign of the tracks remain. It may appear on paper but this is far from being a reality.> Harfo32 (talk) 16:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, the current article text, updated (by user Sv1xv) since I wrote my comment, indicates that Agrinio - Messolonghi - Kryoneri has actually been rebuilt (but strangely, at least no passenger services have been restored!). I have also got this same information from a member of Messinian Association of the Friends of the Railway, so I would assume it's correct. Therefore, with all respect, I would say your information is a bit out of date. About the state of Kavassila - Kyllini, I don't have much more information except the Network Statement but it's not just a 'paper', it's a document about available network capacity, scrapyards hardly qualify. Sivullinen (talk) 17:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

<Well I have to admit that it was 15 years ago that I walked its length, so things may well have changed.>Harfo32 (talk) 18:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I apologise for suggesting that restoration of the Agrinio - Messolonghi - Kryoneri line was unlikely to take place, as I found some photographs on the internet today of the newly restored line. I will try and find them again and post a link here. Harfo32 23:08, 17 January 2008

Sivullinen 19:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Links to photos of the Agrinio - Kryoneri line mentioning the restoration http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gr/station/L-M/pix.html There are a substantial number of interesting photos on this site http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gr/station/A/pix.html Harfo32

Here http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gr/work/pix.html are two photos specifically of construction works of the Krioneri-Agrinio line. Also, many of Platamonas! :) Sivullinen (talk) 22:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

LINES TO PLATAMONAS

In stoic silence stands the station

Trains no longer pass through here

Water towers, dilapidation, rusted rails, deserted air


Tunnels, points and trackless sidings, ticket office, disrepair

Semaphores abandoned sadly, old graffiti written badly

For what was once, now shed a tear


Platamonas, seaside village, summer haunt of child and men

Why not use the past that's living

And bring the line to life again?

John FossHarfo32 —Preceding comment was added at 12:42, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't suppose this poem, written 26th December 2004, had any impact on the decision " πρωτοκόλλου 40 από 26-11-2007 εγγράφου του Συλλόγου Φίλων Σιδηροδρόμου Λάρισας μας ενημέρωσε με το υπ' αριθ. πρωτοκόλλου 1162841/Α44.00 από 21-12-2007 έγγραφό της, ότι η Υ/Π.Σ.Ε.Α. έχει ήδη εκφράσει τις απόψεις της σχετικά με την παλαιά σιδηροδρομική γραμμή Πλαταμώνα με το υπ' αριθ. πρωτοκόλλου 1162796 από 30-10-2007 έγγραφό της, σύμφωνα με το οποίο είναι θετικές ως προς την διατήρηση της παλαιάς σιδηροδρομικής γραμμής Πλαταμώνα. " - which roughly translates as "the Larissa Committee of the Friends of the train agree to support the restoration of the old line at Platamona", but it's nice to think it might! --Harfo32 (talk) 14:25, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kalamata Messene

Kalamata - Messene service seems to have already opened 21 September 2007 with 16 daily departures in each direction. In the beginning of October there was still lots of removed old construction material laying along the trackside and the train was going slowly at some places. There was not yet the planned stop at Kalamata Airport. I cannot say if there will be breaks in service before everything is ready, those fluent in Greek could check the Greek only information on OSE website and update the article accordingly.

Sivullinen 20:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rolling stock

Obviously rolling stock is a major omission in the current article text. I don't think there's an justification to exclude it in an article about a railway company that operates a fleet, or does someone think differently? Sivullinen (talk) 13:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, at least the current locomotives and MUs should be included, even in table format. Sv1xv (talk) 13:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

In my search for information I came across the following list of Greek diesel engines back in 1995. http://www.trainnet.org/Libraries/Lib019/GREEK_01.TXT I appreciate that it is not current - but it is a starting point. There is also a fine collection of photos of Greek locomotives on the same site by Philip Wormald. It seems to be arranged alphabetically and they run from OSE-A224.jpg to OSEA9106.jpg The photos range from 1989 to 1998. Harfo32 (talk) 21:58, 17 January 2008 (UTC) 17 January 2008

Also http://www.railfaneurope.net/list/greece.html has lists of current, preserved and past OSE locomotives and DMUs (and lots of pictures in the gallery, arranged by equipment class). Sivullinen (talk) 08:49, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

MLW MX636 (Class A501) ALCo metric (Class A.9101) You may use these images of locomotives, if you like. Also I give permission to use any current and future railway image found in my photo album [1] for inclusion in this article. Sv1xv (talk) 13:56, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Just wondering isn't there anyone out there having a photo he or she could 'donate' of the most numerous and ubiquitous locomotive type of OSE, the class 220 ADtranz/Bombardier? --Sivullinen (talk) 16:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I just uploaded one here, but I would like to see train photos by other editors as well in this article.
Sv1xv (talk) 17:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! In case you meant me by "I would like to see train photos by other editors as well", please understand I live over 2000 km away and cannot just rush out and take a photo of this loco even if it is one of the most common types in Greece! ;-) --Sivullinen (talk) 19:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

No, of course I don't mean you! There are about twenty excellent train photographers in Greece with much better collections than mine and with easy access to depots, but they don't bother to contribute a couple of pictures.
Sv1xv (talk) 20:06, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we could use the Featured Article Rail transport in Romania and how it presents the rolling stock Rail transport in Romania#Locomotives and stock as a model how to present it here. Of course, we need here also the division into normal- and narrow-gauge stock. Maybe unnecessary to attempt to have a picture of every class, a few example photos of locos and DMUs might suffice? --Sivullinen (talk) 10:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

To help us ;) OSE have now kindly put a complete listing of their fleet (including engines, DMUs, coaches and waggons) on their brand-new webpages. At least at the moment it's only in Greek and strangely in the EDISY section of the webpages. The above being said with the reservation that I don't know Greek ;-) --Sivullinen (talk) 16:25, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New bosses, April 2008

The top managers at OSE are:

OSE Group:

  • Chairman of the Board(President): Nick Ebeoglou
  • Managing Director: George Giannousis

TrainOSE S.A.:

  • Chairman of the Board (President): Elias Kavalierakis
  • Managing Director: John Michopoulos

This info is published in http://www.capital.gr/news.asp?details=479572

Sv1xv (talk) 16:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Just in case a more 'authoritative' source is needed, the info is also on the webpage of Hellenic Ministry of Transport and Communications http://www.yme.gov.gr/?aid=1305&tid=21 --Sivullinen (talk) 12:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lines in service (2008) - Domestic Services

The article seems to have evolved so that the chapter Lines in service (2008) - Domestic Services now covers only the standard gauge lines in central and northern Greece and in the Athens area (and basically nothing about services), I think the chapter should be given a more appropriate heading. Unfortunately, I haven't yet got to one! ;) --Sivullinen (talk) 11:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proastiakos suburban service

There is already a Proastiakos article in WP. Should it be merged with OSE? Sv1xv (talk) 14:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I was aware of that article already before I added the stub here. I'm not sure if the articles should be merged, at least the main article is too detailed to be inserted here as such, lots of those long lists. But I think this article should somehow cover Proastiakos better, now there are just some random statements in chapters covering other topics.

Something that IMO should be covered here:

  • Origins, history
  • Organizational structure (after the merge with TrainOSE!)
  • Service area (Athens, Attica, other prefectures?)
  • Network used, electrification status, rolling stock
  • Services (because e.g. SKA is a network node but not yet a passenger station the network used and the services provided are a bit different things)
  • Stations (not complete lists but explain how lots of new stations have been built, are under construction or have been planned)
  • Future expansion plans
  • Something else?

--Sivullinen (talk) 16:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thessaloniki suburban service

Well, Thessaloniki suburban service has been added into the Proastiakos-chapter, is this correct? Proastiakos is now part of TrainOSE, but it appears still to be a distinct 'product' or 'trademark' and obviously still have organization of their own. On the Proastiakos (English ;-)) webpage http://proastiakos.gr/en/ I can find nothing about Thessaloniki suburban service! --Sivullinen (talk) 08:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Proastiakos is a business activity within TrainOSE, dealing with both Athens and Thessaloniki suburban services. Thessaloniki-Litochoro (soon Larissa) trains bear Proastiakos logos and Proastiakos tickets, which are validated before use, must be used on them. Regarding their web site and also that of OSE, I prefer not to make comments in a public forum.
Sv1xv (talk) 08:57, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thessaloniki - Kozani / Florina time-table

Just wondering where this "a limited service to Kozani (3 trains per day) and Florina (4 trains per day)" comes from. In the printed time-table from last autumn there are trains 733, 737, 741, 747 and 753 from Thessaloniki to Florina and connecting trains 761, 763, 765, 767 and 769 from Amyntaio to Kozani and trains 734/760, 738/762, 742/764, 746/766 and 754/768 from Florina/Kozani to Thessaloniki. I can't read the Greek explanations in the time-table but still I can't understand how it could reduce to this 3/4 trains per day. (The online time-table seems to be out of order at the moment, it didn't give any trains for any route!) --Sivullinen (talk) 13:00, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

It is quite common with OSE to advertize train services in the timetable booklet but not actually run them. You can find this happeing in W. Macedonia, Thessaloniki-Alexandroupolis-Dikaia and Chalkis (Inoi) services and it is mainly due to staffing problems.
Sv1xv (talk) 05:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I thought the printed time-tables were the most reliable ones ;) --Sivullinen (talk) 08:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
BTW, I have uploaded a photo of Kozani station, taken in 2007, after a requst in the Talk page of that article. You can see it also in "Category:Rail transport in Greece".
Sv1xv (talk) 09:09, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Sivullinen, it seems you missed the small print at the bottom of the page with Kozani timetables. I just arrived home and checked my copy. They write that the inauguration of services 760, 763, 764 and 769 to Kozani shall be announced in the newspapers (some time in the future!)
Sv1xv (talk) 19:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I did see the notes but as I already wrote, I don't know Greek. Thanks for translating :) --Sivullinen (talk) 07:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rolling stock quantities

Sivullinen, you are right to point out that the QTY column is "total delivered". I was also thinking about how to handle this issue and I propose to add a column "In use", so for withdrawn types it will be "0", for A351 or A301 it will be "1" etc. The problem is I don't know exactly the current quantities for most recent types. Sv1xv (talk) 17:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The "delivered/in use" approach appears reasonable. Of course, if there's only one unit of a class "in use" it's likely that it's more a preserved unit than really in normal revenue-making service. There are lists of rolling stock http://www.ose.gr/ose/files/Mitroo_Oximaton.pdf and http://www.ose.gr/ose/files/emporika.pdf on OSE webpage, please check those. (I cannot read Greek but I got the impression that for DMUs, at least in some cases, the individual cars are counted separately. Of course it makes sense because each car has a serial number of its own, there may even be spare cars, etc. but e.g. Railfan Europe counts complete DMUs). --Sivullinen (talk) 20:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Nothing makes sense with OSE and their list is not accurate. For example: A-301, A-325 & A-326 are supposedly (in OSE's official books) preserved units only for special tourist trains. Well, all three are used for shunting and occasional freight trains. Also the number of Krupp and Faur shunters listed is high, very few are working. There is no operational metric Alsthom. There is only one class A-301 (the other is rusting at Amfikleia graveyard). And so on Sv1xv (talk) 03:18, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, obviously the lists of OSE are rather accounting type of information than true operational status, what else they could be after all! What's wrong if a "preserved unit" is making some money for the company? ;) Anyway, Wikipedia wants sources for the information, rather than "original research", what would be a better source? --Sivullinen (talk) 07:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

If you are happy with their list, then I can copy the number in the "In use" column, if I understand which exactly locomotive they apply to. Sv1xv (talk) 08:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Fine with me. Btw, should/could there be a 'notes' column (e.g. to describe the relation between some classes, or for some other additional information) in the tables or would it make the rows too long? --Sivullinen (talk) 12:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
If the notes are few, they are best handled as in-line reference. I have already entered the OSE quantities for diesel and electric locomotives with only one exception (A-482 was a total loss by fire at Rodopolis). Then I have to fill in stuff in the DMU and EMU tables, leaving preserved steam locomotives at the end.
Sv1xv (talk) 12:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pyrgos - Katakolo

Well, is there an error in the text, at least some sources say that the line was "the oldest railway line (inauguration February 1883) outside Athens", now the article states 1892 as the opening year! (That would also mean that the original line should not be called as a "branch line" because there was nothing to branch from! ;)) --Sivullinen (talk) 15:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

It is the second oldest railway, after Athens-Piraeus of course. The line was constructed in 1881-1882 and services began in February 1883 by the "Pyrgos-Katakolo Railway S.A.". It was not a branch line as it had its own terminal in Pyrgos. It became finally part of SPAP in 1951.
Sv1xv (talk) 17:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting this article

This article is becoming too long. I propose to split off two sections:

  1. Rolling stock lists.
  2. Old urban and suburban lines: It has no relevance to OSE and only a limited connection to SPAP. There are also related articles in WP: ISAP and Lavriou Square-Strofyli railway line, the latter being very poor. Some rearrangements of these three article is needed.

Then we have to consider merging the "Proastiakos" article into "OSE" in a section of its own. "Proastiakos S.A." company no longer exists (it is absorbed into EDISY and TrainOSE).

I don't insist in taking a decision right away, but if we keep items well organized and avoid duplication, it can be easily done sometime later.

Sv1xv (talk) 16:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm not too much concerned about the length but IMO the biggest problem is still poor structure of the article. The top level chapters should be decided first and then the text should be put under correct titles and not be repeated too much under other titles. Now material about history but also about network is quite much split all over the article, on the other hand e.g. information about services (passenger and especially freight) is quite thin. IMO rolling stock definitely belongs here. You have done very good job with it!
About "old urban and suburban lines": I would keep them here but they should be in the 'History' part only. Please, note, that there is currently no separate article "Rail Transport in Greece" but this article has in a way assumed that role. Also, the history material on OSE webpage inludes those lines, I see nothing wrong to include them here, too.
So, my list of improvements needed would look a bit different:
  1. Improve structure of the article
  2. Improve and extend text about services (especially freight services)
  3. Finish the 'Proastiakos' chapter
--Sivullinen (talk) 20:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I am concerned about the length of the article, but I also think structure is a priority. It seems poor structure is a result of confusion between lines and services. Nowdays there should be no confusion: Lines belong to EDISY, services are run by TrainOSE and any other future operators. There are only Proastiakos (suburban) services, not Proastiakos lines. As a first step in fixing this problem, I created a new section for Domestic Services. Sv1xv (talk) 05:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree, as I have already written earlier, there's need to better separate infrastructure and services (however, I think line can rightfully be used to describe both and that is much the root of the confusion). Btw, it's interesting to compare this article and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Romania (which is a Featured Article) with each other: IMO that article has good organization (ordering of the chapters could of course also be different), a good chapter about history, extensive chapters about services, also a good chapter about rolling stock but strangely, the network (infrastructure) part is hardly a stub! --Sivullinen (talk) 09:26, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The structure of the current OSE article is so poor that it is really difficult to arrange information properly. I started with rearranging headers in a more logical structure. A new section is required for Piraeus (2 terminals) to Athens. I also took SKA-Kiato out of Peloponnese metric lines. I added a section for Idomeni line (it is also missing form the map).Sv1xv (talk) 12:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Network and Stations

Perhaps an additional step should be taken to somehow merge "Network and Stations" and "Infrastructure" because they are much the same thing! Not sure what would be the best title for this chapter, "Infrastructure" is a proper term but maybe it's too 'professional' for a title in an encyclopedia. --Sivullinen (talk) 15:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I removed all useful information from "Network and Stations" and the section can now be deleted. However, because I like this title, I shall preserve it by merging it with the next one. Sv1xv (talk) 18:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Looks good, for the first time I can say that I'm happy with the structure of the article! : ) --Sivullinen (talk) 19:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)